Emergecncy Services vs. Cadet Programs

[flyguy06]

I was just curious about something after reading another thread that got locked. Why does it matter if a member is more into Cadet Programs than anything else? Again, and maybe its just the people that visit captalk.net, but everyone in CAP isnt big on search and rescue or homeland security.

I joined CAP and conitune in CAP because I want to inspire young people to be leaders and to pursue careers in the military as aviators.  I want to inspire young people to be better than they are today and to make right desicions.

Now dont get me wrong. I am a mission observer and scanner, and I used to be a GT leader. I want to eventually become a mission pilot if I can find somebody to train me. But thats not my main purpose for being in CAP. And its not the main purpose for many members.

My Squadron is located in an urban inner city area. I would say mostoof our members know nothing about ES or have even heard of a GES or know what NIMS or ICS is. When they come to us about membership I ask them what do they want to do and the majority of them say "I want to work with cadets"

So, I think there are all kinds of peole in CAP. Not just the search and rescuers. Thats one issue i have with CAP today as opposed to when I was younger in 1990. We have left our Air Force roots and have somehow adopted this Homeland Security ES mindset. Wher edid that come from?

[Tubacap]

I just had this conversation with my Cadet Commander and DCC.  Our thought as a squadron is that if you want to remain CP focused, that is fine.  We do believe that all cadets should at least achieve GTM3, and all Seniors should hold some ES rating.  The reason for this is to be well rounded in all the missions of CAP.  You don't necessarily need to be the best of the best in ES or for that matter CP if your an ES AE type, but you do need to at least have an appreciation for it.

This is suitable for me, so that everyone gets a taste of everything to adequately involve themselves.

As far as urban environments training for ES.  I think that they SHOULD go through and do GES, IS 100 and 700, just to be familiar with everything.  They would, and I live in the sticks, go to either a CERT class with their local EMA, or do something with shelter management with the ARC.  It's all about being proactive to what your local community would, will need in a time of crisis.

[Tubacap]

In reading back, flyguy, I do agree with you, I think that we should all have a basic understanding of all of our missions.

[capchiro]

Tubacap, I think Flyguy06 is actually saying that he isn't interested in ES very much and feels that we have lost our Air Force roots in aviation.  While concurring that ES is a CAP mission, it is not in the CAP cadet curriculum and is not required for progression in the CAP cadet program.  If one has enough time to work ES into the program along with implementing the full cadet program that is fine, as long as it is optional for the cadets.  the cadet program is very intense and it is very extensive.  If a cadet is not progressing fairly regularly in the cadet program, I am not sure that he/she has enough time/resources to work on ES.  Some cadet squadrons put too much emphasis on ES and it detracts from the main purpose of the cadet program.  As usual, JMHO..

[JayT]

I just had this conversation with my Cadet Commander and DCC.  Our thought as a squadron is that if you want to remain CP focused, that is fine.  We do believe that all cadets should at least achieve GTM3, and all Seniors should hold some ES rating.  The reason for this is to be well rounded in all the missions of CAP.  You don't necessarily need to be the best of the best in ES or for that matter CP if your an ES AE type, but you do need to at least have an appreciation for it.

This is suitable for me, so that everyone gets a taste of everything to adequately involve themselves.

As far as urban environments training for ES.  I think that they SHOULD go through and do GES, IS 100 and 700, just to be familiar with everything.  They would, and I live in the sticks, go to either a CERT class with their local EMA, or do something with shelter management with the ARC.  It's all about being proactive to what your local community would, will need in a time of crisis.

But Lieutenant, you're working under the assumption that it's CAP's job to respond to a crisis. While I love ES, it's also not for everyone, nore should it be required.

[jimmydeanno]

Tubacap, I think Flyguy06 is actually saying that he isn't interested in ES very much and feels that we have lost our Air Force roots in aviation.  While concurring that ES is a CAP mission, it is not in the CAP cadet curriculum and is not required for progression in the CAP cadet program.  If one has enough time to work ES into the program along with implementing the full cadet program that is fine, as long as it is optional for the cadets.  the cadet program is very intense and it is very extensive.  If a cadet is not progressing fairly regularly in the cadet program, I am not sure that he/she has enough time/resources to work on ES.  Some cadet squadrons put too much emphasis on ES and it detracts from the main purpose of the cadet program.  As usual, JMHO..

I agree wholeheartedly.

[Flying Pig]

I Cadet Programs for the first 5 years of being a Senior.  Never went on a search, no GT....nothing.  Nor did our Sq.  We were a very dedicated Cadet Programs Sq.  Most all of the Seniors were parents who were their for their cadets and the cadet program.

Sure they had their ES cards, and CPR/First Aid classes, but it was primarily cadets programs.  With several cadets having been accepted to military academies, Embry Riddle and other ROTC programs Id say we did OK without the ES.

My current Sq is almost totally the opposite.

[Al Sayre]

I will agree that a balance must be met, but there is more to the ES part than meets the eye so to speak.  ES, specifically GT training is a chance for cadets to get out of their living rooms and off of the Squadron drill pad and learn some skills that may be fun, useful later in life, confidence builders, and gives them a chance to feel that they really are "preparing to be of service to their community state and nation."  

How great does that cadet feel when he/she completes his/her first aid course and knows that he can help someone if the need arises?  What does it do for his confidence when he/she is the only 13 year old in his class that is trained and respected enough to spend his/her weekend beating the bushes with law enforcement for an Alzheimers patient who wandered away from their home but was found safe by HIS/HER Squadron?  How does the cadet feel when he/she knows that he/she has the equipment and training to go spend the night in the woods with his/her Squadron mates or that his training allows him/her to go to any mission in the country and check in and perform useful tasks?  How many 13 year olds in his/her class get to stand on a taxiway and direct aircraft at a mission base?  

There is more to the Cadet program than drill and aerospace lectures,Self confidence and life skills are something that the cadet program emphasizes, and ES is a good way for cadets to gain them.

[capchiro]

Unfortunately, in my years of experience, I have seen very few squadrons that can do both cadet programs and ES adequately.  Proper ES is very intensive and time consumming to train and maintain proficiency in.  Considering the shortness of meetings and all of the other activities cadets do, school, church, sports, band, etc., it is very hard to work in a good ES program.  There is also the consideration that some senior ES squadrons and outside groups or "customers" don't want the liability or perceived liability of working with cadets and that places ES in a secondary position to the cadet program training as directed by regulations.

[jeders]

Personally, I believe that the CP should take whatever direction the cadets want it to take. If the majority want to focus on Drill competitions and just progressing through the ranks, then as a SM I'm there to help facilitate that. If they want to do a lot of ES stuff, again I'm just there to facilitate that. Same if they want to focus on aerospace instead of either above choice.

However, when we get new cadets, I always give them an introduction to all three things. For CP, obviously just the leadership classes are good for that. For ES I give GES to all new cadets or some other demonstration of ES. For AE I usually go into the model rocketry program and model rocketry competitions. I do this because the cadet that joins to be a hard charging ground team member may find out he/she likes model rocketry more. The cadet that wants to lead an honor guard may decide that ES is cooler.

In short, as DCC I point the local CP in the direction that the cadets want to go, but I bring in other stuff so that they are exposed to it and because they may like it better.

[Walkman]

ES, specifically GT training is a chance for cadets to get out of their living rooms and off of the Squadron drill pad and learn some skills that may be fun, useful later in life, confidence builders... 

I think that's a valid point. In the BSA, they train leaders in the "methods of scouting", one of which (no surprise) is outdoor activities. Not so much because they want everyone to become little Baden-Powells, but because something different happens when we're outdoors.

I'm going to agree that all of us, cadets & seniors, need to be at least familiar with all aspects of CAP. It builds better, more well rounded people and leaders.

[jimmydeanno]

While cadets may like more than model rocketry, at least model rocketry is a program that falls under the CP.  But there are a whole lot of activities that cadets participate in that builds confidence and isn't marching around on the drill pad or sitting through AE lectures.  Cadets can participate in activities like confidence courses, rappelling, bivouacs, etc.  So they see it as part of their curriculum and don't have to choose.

I can agree that a cadet should be able to participate in ES should they choose, however, all too often you see cadets that develop intense interests in ES and loose focus of their progress in the CP, I have two in my squadron.  The first is a C/A1C that almost has a clasp on his red service.  He's not a "bad kid" but simply doesn't see the AE, Leadership, Drill, etc interesting - but what he does find interesting is ES.  The second is a C/SSgt with a clasp on his red service.  He thinks the CP is "too soft" and would rather go to Ranger School to develop ES skills so he can get more "out of this second rate JROTC program."

There is probably a reason that cadet requirements for promotion don't say "qualify as a GTM-3" anywhere, but I don't have it.

[Al Sayre]

To me, that falls under running a balanced program... Kind of like you don't let the kids eat dessert until after they've finished their dinner.  JMHO

[ZigZag911]

Since ES is one of the three CAP missions, I believe it should be part of the CP curriculum....not that every cadet (or senior leading cadets) needs to be ground team or air crew qualified....but I think every cadet should qualify in GES (perhaps for the Mitchell) and that some further training ought to be part of the Phase 3 & 4 curricula....need not be intense, could be as simple as ARC Basic First Aid & CPR.

[flyguy06]

I just had this conversation with my Cadet Commander and DCC.  Our thought as a squadron is that if you want to remain CP focused, that is fine.  We do believe that all cadets should at least achieve GTM3, and all Seniors should hold some ES rating.  The reason for this is to be well rounded in all the missions of CAP.  You don't necessarily need to be the best of the best in ES or for that matter CP if your an ES AE type, but you do need to at least have an appreciation for it.

This is suitable for me, so that everyone gets a taste of everything to adequately involve themselves.

As far as urban environments training for ES.  I think that they SHOULD go through and do GES, IS 100 and 700, just to be familiar with everything.  They would, and I live in the sticks, go to either a CERT class with their local EMA, or do something with shelter management with the ARC.  It's all about being proactive to what your local community would, will need in a time of crisis.

Yes, I understand, but what if they are not interested in it? I cant make them come to a wweekend GT training event. And you say you require cadets to be at least GT3. Why that? Why not marshallers or msn Oservers or scanners? Why does it specifically have to be GT for cadets? Cadets can be commo folks. They can be aircrew if over 18 and they can be support staff.  If I told my members we were going to take a trip to the woods for the weekend, I may get two to show up

[flyguy06]

I will agree that a balance must be met, but there is more to the ES part than meets the eye so to speak.  ES, specifically GT training is a chance for cadets to get out of their living rooms and off of the Squadron drill pad and learn some skills that may be fun, useful later in life, confidence builders, and gives them a chance to feel that they really are "preparing to be of service to their community state and nation."  

How great does that cadet feel when he/she completes his/her first aid course and knows that he can help someone if the need arises?  What does it do for his confidence when he/she is the only 13 year old in his class that is trained and respected enough to spend his/her weekend beating the bushes with law enforcement for an Alzheimers patient who wandered away from their home but was found safe by HIS/HER Squadron?  How does the cadet feel when he/she knows that he/she has the equipment and training to go spend the night in the woods with his/her Squadron mates or that his training allows him/her to go to any mission in the country and check in and perform useful tasks?  How many 13 year olds in his/her class get to stand on a taxiway and direct aircraft at a mission base?  

There is more to the Cadet program than drill and aerospace lectures,Self confidence and life skills are something that the cadet program emphasizes, and ES is a good way for cadets to gain them.

they get that same feeling of satisfaction when they can be in charge of 10-20 of their peers. they get that same staisfaction when they can plan and coordinate meetings on their own without the help of Senior Members.

I am not trying to make excuses but if you take a kid from the inner city who comes from a background wher elove of country is not preached a lot and he wil have a challeneg trying to understand a lot of the values we try to instil in cadets today. i am not saying its impossible, but it is a challenge. Learning First Aid doesnt come easy to everyone. My cadets love to drill. They do not like clasroom stuff. Only th flying foucused ones like learning about flying and thats it. If I were to have a class on search techniques or first aid, there wouldnt be much of an ineterest.

Capchiro is right in I was saying while ES is good its not a requirement

[flyguy06]

Since ES is one of the three CAP missions, I believe it should be part of the CP curriculum....not that every cadet (or senior leading cadets) needs to be ground team or air crew qualified....but I think every cadet should qualify in GES (perhaps for the Mitchell) and that some further training ought to be part of the Phase 3 & 4 curricula....need not be intense, could be as simple as ARC Basic First Aid & CPR.

Agan, I have to say in my unit I wouldnt get much participationm from cadets if I had a first aid class. ow do I know? Because I tried it. A while ago we had 20 active cadets. I had a first aid class and four showed up to it. I had a aviation ground school class and 17 showed up for it.  What does that say?

[Dragoon]

I firmly believe that as a cadet, ES was much more valuable to me than achievement tests and marching.

But that said, ES is NOT currently a required part of CP.  Mebbe it ought to be, but it's not.

And not only that, but both ES and CP are complicated enough that it may be difficult for some units to do both well.

I think it's a crime that CAP assumes every unit in the organization should be supporting all missions.  Horsehockey!  USAF Intell units don't fly planes.  USAF fighter units don't refuel bombers.  USAF medical units don't fix trucks.

Why the heck does CAP assume that a bunch of part-times have the ability to do it all?

I think we'd be better off with more specialized squadrons.  Better to do a few things well than do a million things poorly.

[thefischNX01]

I've had the same conversations with my C/CC and his staff.  My C/CC is heavily involved in emergency services.  He wants everyone involved in it on some level, but there are cadets in my unit with little to no interest in such things.  He wanted everyone to get GTM-3, I thought it would be appropriate to let the cadets choose whatever they wanted.  However, I do see SAREXs and similar exercises as a way to test oneself in a new environment.  Therefore, we encourage cadets to take up an ES rating (FLM, MRO, GTM or UDF), although I am careful not to push them into it.

There are still a couple of cadets who don't go, and that's fine.  I just let them know that SAREX's are a good way to meet people outside of the squadron and to test oneself in a challenging, high octane environment. 

[CAP_truth]

I think all members should have a overview and training in ES, as well as CP and AE. Even if they don't use it they would have the GES, ROA, first aid, DR. training. Even in a urban environment there can be disasters where ES training would come into play.