'rents: Family Involvement

[MIKE]

Lets talk about 'rents... or parents and other family involvement in CAP and the affects on units.

When CAPR 52-16 was released it included this on fraternization:

1-4. h. (2) Fraternization. The Air Force has always prohibited unduly familiar personal relationships between leaders and followers to avoid favoritism, preferential treatment, or other actions that undermine order, discipline, and unit morale. Similarly, it is important for CAP members to avoid unduly familiar relationships with other members, while recognizing that proper social interactions and appropriate personal relationships are necessary to unit morale, esprit de corps and effective mentoring. It is not inherently improper for cadets to have personal or romantic relationships with other cadets, however, relationships between cadets of substantially different ranks, or between cadets within the chain-of-command, are discouraged. Because seniors have intrinsic supervisory authority over cadets, senior members will not date or have an intimate romantic relationship with a cadet at any time, regardless of the circumstances.

Would the parent/child or other family relationship be considered unduly familiar in this context?  Is it really appropriate to place family members in a position where questions may arise based on the relationship? 

[LtCol White]

Lets talk about 'rents... or parents and other family involvement in CAP and the affects on units.

When CAPR 52-16 was released it included this on fraternization:

1-4. h. (2) Fraternization. The Air Force has always prohibited unduly familiar personal relationships between leaders and followers to avoid favoritism, preferential treatment, or other actions that undermine order, discipline, and unit morale. Similarly, it is important for CAP members to avoid unduly familiar relationships with other members, while recognizing that proper social interactions and appropriate personal relationships are necessary to unit morale, esprit de corps and effective mentoring. It is not inherently improper for cadets to have personal or romantic relationships with other cadets, however, relationships between cadets of substantially different ranks, or between cadets within the chain-of-command, are discouraged. Because seniors have intrinsic supervisory authority over cadets, senior members will not date or have an intimate romantic relationship with a cadet at any time, regardless of the circumstances.

Would the parent/child or other family relationship be considered unduly familiar in this context?  Is it really appropriate to place family members in a position where questions may arise based on the relationship? 

No, even the military has family day where members bring their families in to see what they do, meet the coworkers and there are frequently things for the family members to join in on for fun.

[Stonewall]

But in the military it's the opposite of CAP, for the most part anyway.

CAP:  Cadets bring their parents and siblings.

Military:  Miiltary members bring their kids, spouses.

[LtCol White]

Correct. In both cases there is nothing that violates fraternization guidelines. They're both official social/PR events

[Lancer]

I believe Mike is speaking to members of the same family being members of the same unit, especially in a circumstance where one is in a supervisory position over the other... especially a parent serving as a senior member in a command position with his son and/or daughter being a cadet in the unit.

[MIKE]

I think you guys are missing the point.  In this case the parents are members, possibly in leadership positions over their children.

Edit: Exactly what I'm saying Lt.

[Stonewall]

I gotcha, Mike.  Sorry, not sure where my head was....

To me, this is a sensitve subject.  I have seen fewer instances where parents were in the chain of their cadets and things were good, than when they were bad.

In fact, just off the top of my head, I can name about 10 different times when parents joined with their cadet and ended up in a position where they were involved with their cadet.  Of those 10, only 2 were able to pull it off with zero negative impact.

[LtCol White]

Sorry Mike, I see where you are coming from now. Misunderstood your point. Yes I do agree that there can be conflict in this case. As always it will be a prob with some and not with others. I guess its just one of those things that has to be managed on a case by case basis where you monitor to make sure there isnt an issue and when it does become one, talk to the parent/senior member about it rather than the cadet.

[Lancer]

Edit: Exactly what I'm saying Lt.

I think your going to see that in A LOT of units throughout CAP. How it's handled can make or break that unit AFAIAC.

We have that same similar circumstance in our unit; as I'm sure you've read what I've posted in 'The Good of CAP' thread, you had seen that my son and I joined the same unit. I personally think I'm handling how the two of us should act when functioning within the unit or at unit/group/wing etc. activities. I'd have to say that is because of having the experience of WIWAC and the fact that I want my son to excel on his own merits and stumble on his own failures. Am I a proud parent when he does good, sure, but I keep that to myself and do not gloat, brag or otherwise carry on.

Without going into detail I'm going to have to confront the exact opposite within my own unit and I'm feeling like I'm caught between a rock and hard place. I know my unit commander is not up for that business, so I think I'll just take it to him.

[Stonewall]

I truly realize there are some solid parent/cadet teams out there who belong to the same squadron and do things right.  It's no secret that they're dad/son, mom/daughter, whatever, but somehow they get it.  That is uncommon but it exists because I've seen it with my own eyes.

It's hard not to sound negative about this, but in my experience, I have seen where it just doesn't work, and the one who pays in the end, is the cadet of the parent.  The worst situation was when dad joined and had all 3 boys as well as the wife joined as one of those den mother types.  I won't say their name, but you couldn't go anywhere without running into one of them.  To make matters worse, the father's friend joined with his two sons.  They thought they could run everything, it killed me because it was a time when the squadron needed someone, anyone, to take the reigns and who volunteered?  Ping and Pong.

I personally put a stop to one of the dads who was advancing their son faster than was allowed so he could get his Mitchell before heading off to college.  They then tried to get me in trouble for something totally ficticious and BS.  Grrrr....

And don't get me wrong, I love moms.  But the worst situation is when you get the coddling den mother who joins and brings brownies to the squadron and is in their cadet's business, and sometimes other cadets' business and often occupies your time.

I wouldn't call it fratinization, but I call it a pain in the butt.  Not always, like I said, but more often than not.  And I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings and I'm not saying don't do it.  I'd be hard pressed to stay away too.  When my son turns of CAP age, I'm not sure what I'll do, if anything.  I've got 11 years to go so no worries.

A situation I thought was weird was when a father/son team went on an FTX for the first time and they planned on sharing a tent.  Is that bad?  Fathers and sons do it all the time on family camping tirps, I guess.  But in CAP?  I was fortunate that the dad, before it was time to rack out, asked my opinion.  Not having dealt with it before, I told him he's his dad, I don't have a real problem with it, but I did suggest that his son may want to be closer to his fellow cadets.  He agreed and let his sone put up a poncho-hooch and rack out with his cohorts.

That being said, when my wife was in CAP, should we have shared a tent in the field?  We were adults, over 30, and married.  Is that wrong?  Against regs?

[mikeylikey]

So would this be a good example.......

CLS Commander is an awesome Capt.  However she appoints her daughter as the Cadet Commander, her son as the Deputy Cadet Commander and her best friends son as the XO. 

How about.....Encampment Commander is a good guy.  However he appoints his wife as Admin Officer, Head of the medical section and finance officer, his son as the Cadet Commander and his sons best friends form their squadron to fill almost every leadership position. 

I will not name names, nor will I tell you what wing this took place in or what years. 

Did I ever mention I am from PAWG?

[Lancer]

^^^ Wow...that just wreaks of nepotism. 

[mikeylikey]

^ Agreed!  To elaborate if you were at all curious, the CLS was a terrible dissapointment to those at Wing HQ and to most who attended.  I still think the Capt. tried hard, but could have made better choices. 

[RiverAux]

I think people have confused "familiar" with "family". 

The fraternization policy has nothing at all to do with having family members in the same unit.  That is an issue, but not in regards to fraternization.

[Lancer]

I think people have confused "familiar" with "family". 

The fraternization policy has nothing at all to do with having family members in the same unit.  That is an issue, but not in regards to fraternization.

Your right in pointing that out and I think that is what Mike was trying to determine, if that regulation factored family relationships.

So with that being said, there is the glaringly obvious topic of improper family relationships within CAP. The question begs to be asked "How do you mitigate nepotism in your unit?"

[Stonewall]

Per Mike's request...

Even making them cadet sponsor members or patron members is better than them not being members at all...

People will argue this day in and day out.  I won't argue it, I'll just say my opinion, again, I don't recruit parents.  I don't turn them away, but I don't persuade them to stay either.  I've just had way too many negative experiences with parents joining with their cadets.  In some cases it works, and works well.  In my experience, those positive experiences are too few and far between.  On of my best friends, former boss and long time mentor spent 35 years in CAP and was active throughout all three of his cadets' time in CAP.  It was picture perfect, but again, that was just a drop in the bucket of parent/cadet memberships.

[Flying Pig]

I was the Deputy Commander for Cadets at Sq 45 at March ARB in Ca.  I had MANY parents join as Seniors and had a great group of people.  From looking at Sq 45's web site, I see several of those parents are still involved as Seniors.  In fact.....a few out rank me now!

[JaL5597]

In my current squadron most of the core group of seniors are parents of active cadets.  This includes both the Commander and Deputy for Cadets. 

There has been alot of careful work to make sure that nobody can be accused of favoritism.  There hasn't been the whole "No family in CAP" but its just been one of those things that people are aware of.  Like having the CDC sign the master record for the CC's sons to having someone else grade the tests for the testing officer's daughter.

I think its one of those if you want to make things work it can happen.  We can't seperate family all the time we just have to be careful.  I don't know if that makes sense.  To me its more about common sense more than anything else.  Its like come on, what are you going to do about kids in school who have to have their parents for teachers?  You can't really peanalize them for the situation. 

[Stonewall]

Before I get bashed, cuz I feel it coming  Let me say that I am not against parents being members of CAP while their cadet is in the program.  In fact, when I took command of a struggling squadron it was the parents that did join with their cadet that made the difference in the squadron.  In one year we went from almost extinct to squadron of the year in the wing.  In all, I think I had 5 parents with cadets in the squadron.

One was the deputy commander for seniors.  One was the MLO.  One, the AEO.  One transfered to the squadron from a sabbatical and had been a member for 25+ years and became active again when his son joined the squadron, and one was our logistics officer.  All were the perfect senior members.  Honest.  1 was a prior cadet and had 25 years experience.  1 was a retired Army Lt Col.  1 was a former Army Captain turned aerospace engineer.  One had no experience but was heavily involved in the church and became MLO.

Again, the perfect seniors.

The problem I often faced, and a not-to-difficult one at that, was the parent/member being overly involved in their cadet's progress, involvement, and overall experience in CAP.  For the most part we had a good understanding, but more times than I could count, parents made their cadets' experience an uncomfortable one.  While cadets without their parents involvement were free to be themselves, grow naturally and be among friends without the watchful eye of mom or dad, the cadets with moms and dads in the organization, I feel, were often held back from enjoying CAP to its fullest potential.

The real problems I've seen is when Mom and/or Dad were directly involved at the same unit as the cadet(s).  That was where the obvious favoritism, special promotions and appointments, early sign-offs, and priority for son/daughter took place.  It happened so much that it put a bad taste in my mouth that still hasn't subsided.

So that's where I'm coming from. 

If my son, in 11 years, joins CAP and I'm still a member, I'll either go to group or wing and play a support role, or at the very least, I'll move into a non-CP function at the squadron.

[floridacyclist]

We're a CAP family...I'm Asst Personnel and Admin (we finally coerc persuaded someone to take that job as long as I was there to back them up and help train them), PAO, and ES. My wife was just appointed as the DCC, One son is the Cadet Commander another is in the running for 1st Sgt, and the youngest kind of wonders around in a haze. She excuses herself from any decisions involving our kids, and we enforce the use of proper military titles at CAP. I was concerned about her being in their chain of command (something I always avoided), but the CC convinced me that she was the best choice; judging by the rebirth of the squadron, he is probably right.

Back when it was just my kids and I in the squadron (before we met and got married) my CC made a remark that while some folks found it odd that my kids called me Lt Floyd, they were impressed that I never showed any favoritism. We just recently appointed a parent as Leadership Officer and he was briefed that it was now policy that parents and kids adhere to strict military discipline to avoid even the appearance of impropriety.

It CAN be done, but I doubt it happens accidentally.