What Happens To Civil Air Patrol IF Debt Ceiling Isn't Passed?

[RADIOMAN015]

If the debt ceiling isn't passed, what happens to CAP's operations and also the support staff at National

Hasn't the FAA agency already been affected because their budget was not approved

RM

[Al Sayre]

Nothing right away, our funding is part of the previously approved budget.  At worst, Wings may have to wait a few extra days for e108's to be paid...

[JeffDG]

Previously approved budgets are irrelevant in the event of a debt ceiling max.

The feds simply won't have the money to give anyone, they'll blow through what cash they have on debt service and priority items.  Other appropriations will have to be deferred.

The money that's already in the national or wing bank accounts are still good and can still be used, but no more money will come in.

[RiverAux]

Yep, though I wouldn't assume that national and wings wouldn't cut back on their spending just because they're unsure when new money might show up. 

Also, keep in mind that no matter how this is resolved, big-time budget cuts are coming to the military in the near future.  I've yet to see anything that makes me think that the AF wouldn't trade CAP for a single fighter and the only thing keeping that from happening is Congress.  However, if some other sacred cows start to go....

[Eclipse]

I know the State Directors tend to ping pong in and out of the "critical list", so that could potentially
impact activities where CAP-RAPS or SD's are required to participate (Evals, encampments, etc.).

But this is all irrelevant since the decisions were made weeks ago and the rest is just politics.

The bare minimum will be passed at the 11th hour, and then every effort will be made to characterize
this as Obama's fault as if raising the debt ceiling were unusual.

Sadly the damage to our economy and credit standing may already be done.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I've yet to see anything that makes me think that the AF wouldn't trade CAP for a single fighter and the only thing keeping that from happening is Congress.  However, if some other sacred cows start to go....

Yes...when it comes down to it, we're not worth a bolt on an F-35.

Remember 1995 and John McCain?

All this over a bunch of politicians, on both sides of the aisle, acting like a bunch of whining, spoiled children.

[Grumpy]

We could save BIG bucks if we'd just stop spending money for all the freebies we give to illegals and stop bailing out every third world country that comes along that wants  kill us.

[jimmydeanno]

Gah!  OUR BUDGET IS NOT IMPACTED BY A REDUCTION IN THE AIR FORCE BUDGET!

Saying that our budget is going to go away because the Air Force wants a new plane isn't right.  The Air Force provides our oversight of federally appropriated funds from CONGRESS.  We don't get our money "from the Air Force."

[Eclipse]

+1

From a Defense Industry Daily article regarding CAP's budget and ROI.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/a-national-bargain-the-us-civil-air-patrol-02016/

Civil Air Patrol is private, non-profit corporation, deemed a 501c3 by the IRS, who receives annual appropriations through Air Force channels.

Although funded via the AF "Misc Contracts" line, CAP is a grant recipient, operating under DoD Grant and Aid Recipient Cooperative Agreement rules and regulations, as well as the appropriate Office of Management & Budget Circulars.

Note that Air Force college ROTC and JROTC are also funded under the "Misc Contracts" budget line item.

I don't believe this has changed since the article was written. 

Now, were we a legit, full-on line item of the USAF, instead of the above, we might get the love and oversight from Big Blue that many of us want... 
or...
...we might also have more free time on the weekends as the USAF incorporates a fleet of Cessnas into their new "DOMSUP" command where
pilots pushed out of flight jobs by UAVs maintain hours and perform "Missions For America".

[RiverAux]

Gah!  OUR BUDGET IS NOT IMPACTED BY A REDUCTION IN THE AIR FORCE BUDGET!

Saying that our budget is going to go away because the Air Force wants a new plane isn't right.  The Air Force provides our oversight of federally appropriated funds from CONGRESS.  We don't get our money "from the Air Force."

Didn't say that it was.  However, there is a certain amount of money that goes towards DoD.  If you ask the AF:  "Would you rather give a grant to CAP or have another fighter plane?  What is your priority?"  They would say, give me the plane.

Now, Congress doesn't always listen to what the military wants.  There are plenty of examples of Congress forcing the military to buy things or do certain other things that the military says that it doesn't need (extra engines for fighters), so the AF's desires aren't the final factor. 

And, also I was speaking to the wider desire to cut federal spending.  And when that sort of thing is being considered, how is CAP going to be considered?
   A.  We have a cadet program that is only 1/3rd the size of AFJROTC and certainly could be considered redundant.  Sure, the programs aren't exactly alike, but in the big picture, both are not needed.
  B.  We have a very limited role in emergency services (again, in the big picture), which in some states is actually non-existent. 
  C. The AE program is not a national priority and CAP certainly doesn't treat it as one.  Outside of our own members we essentially do nothing of significance in this area.
  D. We do essentially nothing in providing any direct support to the AF or the military.  Yeah, there are a few tiny little programs, but not enough to be a justification for the rest of CAP. 

That is what I would be seeing if I were a Congressman or Senator looking to cut the budget.  We can very easily be seen as a non-essential program that wouldn't impact military readiness one bit if we were cut. 

Personally, I certainly wouldn't think the AF would get any more real value out of 1 fighter jet than all of CAP and in reality that probably isn't the situation that would come up.  It would be more like we're cutting stuff from DoD's budget.  What don't we really need? 

I've spent almost 15 years in CAP and I obviously like the program, but if I was the one responsible for making really tough decisions on these issues, I really don't know that I could come up with any argument showing that CAP is essential. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I've spent almost 15 years in CAP and I obviously like the program, but if I was the one responsible for making really tough decisions on these issues, I really don't know that I could come up with any argument showing that CAP is essential.

Almost 18 years for me, and I sadly agree with you.

Considering that most of the Air Force doesn't even know who we are, and another chunk considers us uniformed poseurs who troll for salutes, it wouldn't be easy for us to escape the executioner's blade...possibly even moreso than in 1995 (and, remember, John McCain is still a Senator with an axe to grind about CAP).

[Ned]

Considering that most of the Air Force doesn't even know who we are, and another chunk considers us uniformed poseurs who troll for salutes, [. . .]

How odd.  My experience has been slightly different.  I work directly with a half-dozen active and retired USAF general officers who value CAP so highly that they volunteer their time for us.

And just last month I was briefed by the AFNORTH commander (a USAF major general) about how hard his job would be without CAP.  He showed us his ATO for the day, and CAP made up the large majority of the sorties.

And while CAP's cadet program is only about the third of the size of JROTC, it is also conducted at less than 10% of the cost. and produces the same or better measurable results in accessions and increased success in completion of IET.  In an era of "value engineering" and a significant reduction in the size of the USAF, if only one cadet program survives, I wouldn't put my money on the AFJROTC.

(Note: We are not in competition with the terrific folks in AFROTC and JROTC.  I am not aware of any significant changes planned for them.  I only mention this based on the speculation posted above.  We are indeed different programs reaching different audiences of young people interested in aerospace and the military.)

But what do I know?  You guys sound very wise (if somewhat pessimistic.)

Ned Lee

(edit - spelling)

[Flying Pig]

If the debt ceiling isn't passed, what happens to CAP's operations and also the support staff at National

Hasn't the FAA agency already been affected because their budget was not approved

RM

I have some terrible news.  If the debt ceiling is not raised, all CAP members will have to volunteer their time, pay up front and wait for reimbursement.   

[davidsinn]

If the debt ceiling isn't passed, what happens to CAP's operations and also the support staff at National

Hasn't the FAA agency already been affected because their budget was not approved

RM

I have some terrible news.  If the debt ceiling is not raised, all CAP members will have to volunteer their time, pay up front and wait for reimbursement.   

Sounds like a Tuesday.

[RiverAux]

Considering that most of the Air Force doesn't even know who we are, and another chunk considers us uniformed poseurs who troll for salutes, [. . .]

How odd.  My experience has been slightly different.  I work directly with a half-dozen active and retired USAF general officers who value CAP so highly that they volunteer their time for us.

And just last month I was briefed by the AFNORTH commander (a USAF major general) about how hard his job would be without CAP.  He showed us his ATO for the day, and CAP made up the large majority of the sorties.

Ned, I think your experience is quite outside the mainstream of CAP in terms of having any sort of actual working relationship with members of the AF.  I suspect that even if you count ICs talking to AFRCC, that 90% or more of CAP officers haven't "worked directly" with the AF. 

But, for us out in the field, the AF is rarely, if ever seen.  Do they send representatives to Wing conferences?  Change of command?  Invite CAP members to important events at AFBs?  Certainly not often.  Yeah, if you are an important wing mission base staff member you probably see some around SAREVAL time, and yes, I've even heard some AF guys on SAREVAL teams thank us for our service.  But, only a small handful of CAP members heard that. 

And sure, CAP flights make up a lot of the sorties tracked by AFNORTH, but we all know that only a handful of those missions are actually directly assisting the AF and I suspect that for anything that they really, really, really need Cessna's for could be done on a contract basis for a fraction of what is spent on CAP. 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again -- if the AF really felt that CAP was part of the AF family and that we were really needed to help them accomplish their missions, they would take our 60K members more seriously and everyone in CAP would recognize it. 

I know some of you hate it when I compare CAP to CG Aux, but I've yet to come across an Auxie who hasn't had a personal experience of a Coastie personally expressing to them their thanks for our assistance in general and in regards to whatever task we may have been doing at the time.  Why, is obvious.  While CG Aux probably isn't essential either, it is indisputable that CG Aux takes on some actual missions that the CG is tasked with doing and takes some of the weight from their shoulders.  I've never had AF Colonels visiting my squadron meeting or coming to squadron events (and there are plenty nearby that could do it), but CG Captains and Commanders are seen at local CG Aux events and they often have to come a long distance to get there.  CG Admirals are not uncommon at what would be the equivalent of a CAP region conference (if there were such things).  It is rare that the CG Commandant doesn't mention the Aux whenever he makes general statements about the CG "family". 

Just saying, if CAP was, in fact, important to the AF, we would all know it and everyone would be able to cite multiple examples of both why we were important and situations where the AF told us so.   

And this does relate directly back to one of my long-time gripes -- CAP doesn't actually try to collect any real data on what its members do and therefore no one has any really useful stats to argue for CAP's importance.  Where is the data showing how great the cadet program is?  The AE program?  How many member hours (not just flight hours) were spent on AFAMs, including direct assistance to the AF? 

As someone who actually administers grants in real life, I wouldn't approve the final payment on CAP's contract with the level of data we provide showing what we did for the money. 

You know, it occurs to me that the reason the CG shows the love to their Aux is that they actually have data showing what the CG Aux does for them and their relevance to broader CG goals and objectives is clear. 

[wuzafuzz]

^^^
Perhaps it varies by wing, but in CO I've seen Air Force/ANG generals attend some of our SAREX's and our latest wing conference.  It's not common, but they are certainly aware we exist and seem to appreciate what we do.

[FW]

We're in new territory here however, If the debt ceiling is not raised, the government won't be able to borrow any more money.  As we are very close to the end of the current "fiscal year", I doubt we will notice any changes until 30 Sept.  If there is no agreement reached by then, I think we're going to have some real problems as "discretionary budget dollars" will dry up over night. 

But, then again, I remember a time when we paid for almost everything we did and, still had plenty of members who wanted to play.  I guess though, we won't be having any paid support staff any longer.  That would hurt.

The president, BTW, could order the treasury to start printing dollars (it was done before).  Think Germany in the 1920s.  I don't think that would be a good thing.  Best scenario would be for congress to get their act together and pass something realistic.....

[Eclipse]

Never talked to a CAP-RAP?  How about your State Director?

The USAF is around all the time - Evals and SAREx's, Encampments, we have a unit that meets on an AFB and another on a Guard base.

I see them plenty.  More would be nice, but I'm not complaining.

[Ned]

But, for us out in the field, the AF is rarely, if ever seen.  Do they send representatives to Wing conferences? 

yes, actually.  Pretty much every single one has a State Director attending..  You remember, an Air Force Officer (retired) paid by AF dollars.  Were you expecting the Air Force Band and the Singing Sergeants?

Change of command? 

Yep. pretty much every National, Region, or Wing command change I've ever seen (and over the last 40 years, there have been quite a few), have had Air Force representation.  I can't imagine a Region Liaison Commander or CAP-USAF commander not attending.  Has your experience been different?

Invite CAP members to important events at AFBs? 

Where appropriate, yes.  To be fair, I can't think that there are all that many USAF events on a given base where CAP presence would be appropriate, but I certainly have been invited to multiple events on base.

And sure, CAP flights make up a lot of the sorties tracked by AFNORTH, but we all know that only a handful of those missions are actually directly assisting the AF and I suspect that for anything that they really, really, really need Cessna's for could be done on a contract basis for a fraction of what is spent on CAP.

Of course not.  That's kind of the whole point of volunteer air crews.  Paid folks are always going to cost more than we do.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again -- if the AF really felt that CAP was part of the AF family and that we were really needed to help them accomplish their missions, they would take our 60K members more seriously and everyone in CAP would recognize it. 

I can only surmise that we have caught you on a bad day and you are not "feeling appreciated enough" by our USAF partners.  But I have always, always felt valued starting as a cadet when USAF folks at Vandenberg AFB went our of their way to make sure I had a "great Air Force Day" at encampment over 40 years ago.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Again, taking a hard (and slightly pessimistic) look at what the Air Force's needs are in dire financial straits:

CAP-USAF is part of Holm Centre, which under Air Education and Training Command.

Also at HC are Air University, AFROTC, AFJROTC, OTS and Air University.

AETC is commanded by General Edward A. Rice, Jr.

When faced with dollars thin on the ground, General Rice is going to have to make some hard decisions.

What do you think the General is going to decide to keep running if he has to make a choice - CAP-USAF or OTS?  Or, for that matter, the Academy of Military Science (commissioning for ANG and AFRES officer candidates)?

Having been in the CGAUX myself, I agree with much of what RiverAux says about their relationship with their parent service vis-a-vis our relationship with ours.  They are genuinely appreciative of what their Auxiliary does for them, and they say so.  Since the mid-'90s, the AF only seems to take note of us when someone whines that our uniforms look too much like theirs or when one of our top staff really does something stupid (Generalissimo what's-his-name, US Ranger Corps), or when an enlisted Airman encounters a dipstick CAP officer trying to make them salute (one of out of how many who don't indulge in such stupidity, but the bad apple makes the whole barrel stink).  It often seems to me, and I'm not speaking for anyone else, that the AF is primarily interested in us so that we don't screw up wearing their uniform (actual or perceived) and as a source of warm bodies for Lackland.

Eclipse: I can count on the fingers of both hands how many times I met a State Director, in two wings.  I haven't seen a CAP-RAP at our unit since last year.  About the only time I see the Air Force, including Guard and Reserve, period, is when one of our cadets earns their Mitchell (or higher) and signs on to go to Lackland as an E-3.

Ned: Respectfully, sir, I think you deal in much higher echelons than most of us ever will.  At the squadron, group or even wing level, the disconnect from the AF is much more noticeable.  Granted, it wasn't always that way.  I remember when I first joined in '93, my squadron was frequently visited by the LO (AFRES Major) and the commander of the local AFROTC unit (AF Captain).  I still maintain that most of the AF doesn't even know who we are...we don't even rate a mention to new Airmen at BMT.

What Eclipse said about "DOMSUP" could realistically happen.  I think a lot of ANG and AFRES units, in particular, would be looked at as meriting having these new, off-the-shelf light aircraft, in USAF markings, a lot more than we would if a decision ever came down to that.

Part of it is our fault.  We have had those on the "corporate" side who want us out of any kind of AF-type uniforms and to put the kibosh on AE and CP to the exclusion of solely being a flying ES entity want to have it both ways.  They don't want any interference oversight from USAF, but they sure do want to maintain the funding from them.

[RiverAux]

yes, actually.  Pretty much every single one has a State Director attending..

Sorry, but they don't count.  They are civilian employees and I'm sure that the AF would be just fine with losing every one of them if they had the opportunity to dump CAP as a whole.  They have no incentive to fight for civilian employees.  Now, if they were actual AF personnel like in the old days, it might be a bit different. 

Of course not.  That's kind of the whole point of volunteer air crews.  Paid folks are always going to cost more than we do.

Yeah, on a per flight basis CAP is cheaper.  But, the overhead of supporting the entire CAP organization for the few direct AF-support flights blows that comparison out of the water. 

I can only surmise that we have caught you on a bad day and you are not "feeling appreciated enough" by our USAF partners. 

No, its not a particularly bad day, just the result of years of CAP experience.  I once took a lot of pride in thinking that I was doing something to support the AF.  But, I just don't see much of what I, or my wing, do as having any direct benefit to the AF. 

I see this as more of a long-range problem rather than something that will come into play as part of the debt-ceiling issue.

One thing that I saw pointed out recently was that the Supreme Court decided some time ago that the President doesn't have the constitutional authority to pick and choose which bills will be paid.  If Congress has authorized something, the President has to spend the money on it.  That being the case, it puts the President in the bind as Congress has authorized a lot of spending while at the same time capping how much debt can be taken on while not providing either the money (through taxes) to pay them or authorizing taking on debt to pay them.  Talk about a catch 22.  It will be interesting to see what he does if the ceiling isn't raised. 

[Ned]

]Sorry, but they  don't count.  They are civilian employees [. . .].

Wow.  I'm kinda speechless at that one.  Now I can kinda see why uniform discussions are so important to you and the rest of CT.

Let me gently suggest that each of the 180,000 or so USAF civilians do indeed "count."

Probably more than you and me put together, in fact.

The USAF literally could not do the job of protecting your tail without their civilian employees.

Suggesting that they do not "count" or are somehow not worthy of CAP's time and efforts is just . . . I can't find the right word.  Probably some combination of arrogant and ungrateful belongs here.

After all, the last time I checked the Secretary of the Air Force is a civilian.

If you are waiting for some uniformed USAF officer to come and pay homage to you for your CAP service, maybe the Coast Guard Auxiliary is indeed a better fit for you.

Thank you for your service.

Ned Lee

[Spaceman3750]

CAP-USAF or OTS?

With selection rates of 10-20% to OTS I think that they're just as likely to jettison OTS :angel:.

Some days I wonder why on earth I didn't go to a school that has AFROTC.

[PHall]

CAP-USAF or OTS?

With selection rates of 10-20% to OTS I think that they're just as likely to jettison OTS :angel:.

Some days I wonder why on earth I didn't go to a school that has AFROTC.

The military likes OTS because it's the easiest of the three commissioning sources for them to turn on and to turn off when they need to.
The academies and ROTC are both multi-year programs and it takes a couple of years for them adjust their output.

[sarmed1]

As a non  police making AF guy (given I know more about CAP than most AF folks) I would think that cutting off/out CAP from the AF controlled funding would be more finacially difficult than keeping in.  They would have to re-assign the mission role  they give to CAP, you would still have to be paying the NG or Reserves to do it (even with the existing airframes, let alone getting new or even mothballed aiframes, training the crews, standing up new unit types etc etc,) and much of that same cost would go to if you have an active duty unit perform it. (and once you create a "new" mission, especially if there is a conus requirement, you still end up with "costs" new airframes, updates to previous airframes for the new mission, personnel increases to make sure there are enough bodies available for while others are deployed, fuel/maintainence, overhall, training schools.......
No one in the civilian community is really (long term) interested in taking on a job for free....and there arent that many volunteer aviation resources out there, so geographically you are limited and "contractors" still want money to do jobs, especially mlitary jobs.

Bang for buck CAP is still the cheapes resource for the mission USAF uses them for (I guess they could of course just drop the mission requirements and let someone else worry about funding it from their budget)

I think the operational needs outway the cadet mission in the AF eyes for sure, but CAP's I think is still cheaper than the JROTC option, plus it feeds both ends, potentially brings recruits to the USAF (both officer and enlisted) as well as feeds itself supplying personnel to CAP to perform the ES mission (both as cadets and after the transition to senior members)

And of course there is the ever infamous "60000" volunteer membership available to the USAF to use for whatever.  So they might have to pay a little room and board or food but I am sure if the AF needed a ready supply of free bodies to do something, they could call on CAP membership to do "stuff"... so keeping up the funding/management for CAP is sort of a retainer fee for having CAP there for a yet undetermined future need.

mk

[RADIOMAN015]

CAP-USAF or OTS?

With selection rates of 10-20% to OTS I think that they're just as likely to jettison OTS :angel:.

Some days I wonder why on earth I didn't go to a school that has AFROTC.

The military likes OTS because it's the easiest of the three commissioning sources for them to turn on and to turn off when they need to.
The academies and ROTC are both multi-year programs and it takes a couple of years for them adjust their output.

There's restriction on ROTC scholarships now.  They are looking for certain majors and I believe there's no longer any 4 year scholarships.  The individual must have successfully completed their first year in ROTC BEFORE any consideration is given.

Regarding OTS, you have to remember that this is a way for enlisted personnel (as well as direct commissioning programs in medical services corps, bio science corps, nurse corps) currently in the service, so you get a "very experienced" 2nd lieutenant.  Additionally OTS can recruit for specific skills/education IF they want to.

I think the AF knows what they are doing and they don't need any help from Civil Air Patrol in staffing issues.
RM 

[flyboy53]

Two other things to add to above. CAP-RAP doesn't go away. The only thing that will be effected will be Mandays or other special funding sources. Most of the personnel in this program are doing it for participation points  toward retirement. They can continue to participate and accumulate their points as necessary.

As far as state directors, remember they are corporate employees, not liaision officers as in the old days.

[RiverAux]

Let me gently suggest that each of the 180,000 or so USAF civilians do indeed "count."

Probably more than you and me put together, in fact.

Thanks for joining my side in saying that CAP isn't considered essential by the AF. 

I'm kinda speechless at that one.  Now I can kinda see why uniform discussions are so important to you and the rest of CT.

Statistically speaking I post on the uniform board less than expected.  Overall 25% of CT posts are on the uniform board while only 18% of mine are.  For comparison, 22% of your posts are on the uniform board. 

They would have to re-assign the mission role  they give to CAP, you would still have to be paying the NG or Reserves to do it (even with the existing airframes, let alone getting new or even mothballed aiframes, training the crews, standing up new unit types etc etc,) and much of that same cost would go to if you have an active duty unit perform it. (and once you create a "new" mission, especially if there is a conus requirement, you still end up with "costs" new airframes, updates to previous airframes for the new mission, personnel increases to make sure there are enough bodies available for while others are deployed, fuel/maintainence, overhall, training schools.......

Says who?  There are states now where CAP is essentially a non-factor in any ES role and that doesn't seem to cost the AF anything.  There is no mandate that the AF pay for missing airplane searches (for example).  AFRCC coordinates those searches but are not required to use AF assets.  States are ultimately responsible for doing SAR, disaster relief, etc..

As I said earlier, so long as CAP exists we are going to be a fairly efficient asset for use on some missions, but if the US was starting from scratch on their needs for Cessnas, we would not be the way to go. 

[RADIOMAN015]

]Sorry, but they  don't count.  They are civilian employees [. . .].

Wow.  I'm kinda speechless at that one.  Now I can kinda see why uniform discussions are so important to you and the rest of CT.

Let me gently suggest that each of the 180,000 or so USAF civilians do indeed "count."

Probably more than you and me put together, in fact.

The USAF literally could not do the job of protecting your tail without their civilian employees.

Suggesting that they do not "count" or are somehow not worthy of CAP's time and efforts is just . . . I can't find the right word.  Probably some combination of arrogant and ungrateful belongs here.

After all, the last time I checked the Secretary of the Air Force is a civilian.

If you are waiting for some uniformed USAF officer to come and pay homage to you for your CAP service, maybe the Coast Guard Auxiliary is indeed a better fit for you.

Thank you for your service.

Ned Lee

I think again we see the misunderstanding that some members of the Civil Air Patrol have regarding our VERY strong relationship with the AF.   They give a lot of money to CAP and do have a strong interest in all of our programs. HOWEVER, surely operation support with our aircraft (which they have bought for us) is their top priority and it is easy for them to quantify this support and the available capacity to provide more support if necessary.  The state directors who are civilian employees are very dedicated people, who actually would work even longer hours, but policy wise have been told the maximum amount of time they can work each week.

HOWEVER, I again do have any interest in how we our calculating our cost per flying hour with our aircraft.  I know in the AF all of the support costs (including aircraft maintenance supplies, equipment, & personnel costs) are the numerator for that period, with the total flying hours being the denominator.  So there would be a planning/budgeted cost per hour and than the actual flying hours and an a detailed analysis was provided to the wing staff on the fluctuations on a monthly basis during the fiscal year.   At our level I've never heard of a flying hour goal for each aircraft (nor any analysis of where we stood in relation to planned versus actual flying hours), BUT in order to come up with a estimated budgeted flying hour cost, one would have to make some assumption on total flying hours.  Granted IF an aircraft isn't flown as much than the various inspections required during the fiscal year would be less, and thus less cost.         

Also I think many of us on AF/AFRC/ANG military installations, are wondering what ever happen to CAP's involvement with the volunteers in service to the AF program (which also has the potential of helping the AF with members that are not heavily involved with aircrew and other limited ES support)    

I personally don't think it's that important that EVERY AF member know about & understand CAP.  It is very important that the decision makers down to the base level installations DO understand about CAP and what our capabilities are.   CAP has done some very good work in getting that word out :clap:

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised budget wise if we do see a reduction in our future funding.  How that will affect the total number of aircraft authorized/funded is unknown at this time.   

I think there's a risk to the organization when anyone within the organization publicly criticizes it's primary super major funding source (as in we just about go out of existence IF funding was stopped)    

RM
   

[RiverAux]

As far as state directors, remember they are corporate employees, not liaision officers as in the old days.

No, they are not CAP corporate employees.  They are civilian employees of the Air Force. 

[Major Lord]

Back to the original question, first: A default consists of the Federal Govt being unable to pay the Constitutionally required debts, i.e, interest on loans and bonds, etc. Failing to pay Social Security or other "entitlements"  would be painful, but would not constitute a "default" within the definition of the word. Second, the income to the Federal Govt on a monthly basis is perfectly adequate to pay our Constitutionally mandated debts, so a default is not really a very likely possibility, unless the President assumes dictatorial powers and pays discretionary payments before the proper debts, or the Congress rewrites, or re-interprets,  the Constitution to grant it powers it has never had ( It does this all the time, so this is not outside the limits of probability).

Not voting for a limit to the debt ceiling is not a default-it simply prohibits congress from raising the U.S. "Credit Card" limit. The solution of the Congress so far has just been to print more money, and our credit rating is suffering from our watered down and devalued money supply, not from our lack of willingness to go further into a tail spin of uncontrollable debt, although that is certainly a key indicator to show we are in serious trouble. This is somewhat akin to running up your credit card bills before filing for bankruptcy: Its a scheme with a minimal chance of survival.

So the real question is, "What happens if we can't borrow any more money?" The Government will be forced to make cuts in cash outlay. We know that the Government, as any healthy parasite will do, will take care of it's own needs first, and will not limit spending on its own power, or employee compensation and benefits. This leaves both sides deciding how the remaining funds are allocated. Traditionally, one party looks at defense spending as a big lake filled with cash that could be used for better purposes ( like social programs) and will use the threat of failing to meet the insatiable demands of the welfare state as a big stick to force an increase to the debt limit. Presidential and Congressional positions of power are purchased with the graft of taxpayer money, and our tiny little budget is hardly a blip on the radar screen of either party. ( The Government spends more on toilet seat covers)  Both parties will be looking at schemes to force a debt limit increase or alternatively,  to raid big piles of cash, like retirement accounts, IRA's etc., and to replace these with Government IOU's. Both schemes are fundamentally suicidal.

So the short answer of "What will happen to CAP? " Answer? Nothing .......at least for a while.....followed by reductions and dissolution as our economy collapses. The odds of the federal government stopping the crash by trying to steer by turning the rear-view mirror are pretty small. In the not so distant future, CAP had better be prepared to be self-funded or dissolved. Of course I could be overly optimistic......

Major Lord

[Spaceman3750]

CAP-USAF or OTS?

With selection rates of 10-20% to OTS I think that they're just as likely to jettison OTS :angel:.

Some days I wonder why on earth I didn't go to a school that has AFROTC.

The military likes OTS because it's the easiest of the three commissioning sources for them to turn on and to turn off when they need to.
The academies and ROTC are both multi-year programs and it takes a couple of years for them adjust their output.

I think the AF knows what they are doing and they don't need any help from Civil Air Patrol in staffing issues.
RM

Since neither of us were offering any "help" I'm not exactly sure where you're coming from with this one, other than trolling and pot-stirring.

[Eclipse]

Actually, CAP might get a big boost as this could trigger the apocalypse which would then likely increase the need for our services. 
Since vigilante mobs will roam the streets, we'll look like Praetorian Guard in comparison.

(The PG, BTW, did have an auxiliary as well, as evidenced by a set of scrolls recently discovered in Constantinople which featured an argument between members about whether the PGAux should be allowed to use standard scutum, or they should be accented with gray stripes.  There was also a side discussion about whether it was appropriate for PGAux to receive a discount at the local bathhouse, though there was no resolution indicated as the
bottom of the scroll was cut off with drawing of a small lock).


Fun aside, it's all irrelevant.  An 18-month extension / "compromise" will be reached at the 11th hour, just in time to avoid Financial Armageddon, but quite possibly too late to avoid collateral damage (remember that term?) with creditors, and just long enough to try and blame the whole mess on Obama for the 2012 elections.

6th graders playing games with people's lives and the world economy in the name of partisanship.  Ridiculous.

[RADIOMAN015]

So the short answer of "What will happen to CAP? " Answer? Nothing .......at least for a while.....followed by reductions and dissolution as our economy collapses. The odds of the federal government stopping the crash by trying to steer by turning the rear-view mirror are pretty small. In the not so distant future, CAP had better be prepared to be self-funded or dissolved. Of course I could be overly optimistic......

Major Lord

I hope you really meant overly pessimistic   What I think will happen is CAP will see a reduction in support and also may not see any 'fall out' money (funding transferred from other organizations within AETC that have achieved savings & the decision is made to fund some of CAP's unfunded "priority" needs).   In the past this 'fall out' money has bought vehicles & radio communications equipment.  BTW this is a VERY significant accomplishment for CAP to get this money, and proves that the AF has a great interest in supporting us. :clap:   

In my experience on active AF duty, including Chief of Resource Management, at a group level unit, I never saws the AF turn back any money at the end of the fiscal year.  Every AF major force program, by major command, & by base ALWAYS had a validated list of unfunded requirements (in our instance it was durable equipment type items) and appropriate reprogramming took place, so that the overall financial commitment matched the overall approved budget total, at the end of the fiscal year.
RM   

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I think again we see the misunderstanding that some members of the Civil Air Patrol have regarding our VERY strong relationship with the AF.

You must see a lot different AF people than I do.  Most of the ones I see barely know we exist, especially enlisted under E-7.

I personally don't think it's that important that EVERY AF member know about & understand CAP.  It is very important that the decision

Why not?  They have to learn about the ANG and AFRES in BMT.  There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that new Airmen could not have a segment on their Auxiliary incorporated into learning about their Reserve Components.

Indeed, and throw brickbats if you like, one could say that we are legally closer to the AF than the ANG is...we are "always Federal, all the time," whereas State Governors own their respective ANG units unless Federalized.

[Eclipse]

Why not?  They have to learn about the ANG and AFRES in BMT.  There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that new Airmen could not have a segment on their Auxiliary incorporated into learning about their Reserve Components.

Seriously - not to mention the fact that every Airman in the USAF is a potential CAP member, which would have enormous benefits for
both sides of the conversation.

[jimmydeanno]

AF members not knowing who CAP are is an issue that can be handled locally.

At my unit, I personally go to all the "Base Newcomer Orientations" where I set up a CAP table and give information/solicit membership from EVERY person that gets assigned to the base.  There really isn't a closed door to us because of the relationship we've built.  We've done really well in recruiting the SUPT grads in flight training to CAP to become O-Flight pilots, new Lt's for random stuff in the unit, etc. 

Since I started doing this about 6 months ago, our squadron has had a 200% increase in membership, consisting of all base personnel.  We also hold encampment here, so that gives us some big face time.  One of the Brig Gens on the base even decided to come check out what we were doing one day during encampment, as did the 2BW/CC and 2MG/CC.

Most units that are located on/near bases that don't have a relationship can only blame themselves.  The apathy and expectation for someone else to do everything for them gets old, and doesn't get them very far.

[cap235629]

INSTALLING COMMON SENSE IN WASHINGTON.....
███████████████░░░░░░░░░░░░░░ 44% DONE.
Install delayed....please wait.
Installation failed. Please try again. 404 error: COMMON SENSE IN WASHINGTON not found. " COMMON SENSE " cannot be located. The program may be too large for intended recipient. Try removing "SPECIAL INTERESTS" before reloading

[Al Sayre]

^^^ :clap: :clap: :clap:

[JeffDG]

Well, this discussion is now officially moot (well, I guess the President could still veto it), because the Senate has voted to concur in the House amendments...it's done.

[Tim Medeiros]

Why not?  They have to learn about the ANG and AFRES in BMT.  There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that new Airmen could not have a segment on their Auxiliary incorporated into learning about their Reserve Components.

I'm actually sitting here with my BMTSG (BMT Study Guide) sitting in my lap, still in its binder from the 322nd TRS, only thing I learned about AFRES was where their HQ is.  We learned that during our 7th week (23 March exactly for me, found on page 386 of the BMTSG dated 4 Oct 2010), ANG was only mentioned as part of the Total Force concept.  The only reason AFRES was mentioned is because it is a major command.


I learned more about the AFRES and ANG from my fellow trainees than anywhere else in BMT or tech school.


A small note, ANG and AFRES are not even questioned about on the chapter review exercise for the Air Force Organization chapter.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Major/Airman Medeiros:

Then it's changed...of course, I remember the days when Internet access in BMT was unfathomable, you were an "Airman" from day one ("Sir, Airman Dipstick reports as ordered...") you hoped and prayed that the MTI would let you call home, there was still a rank of Buck Sergeant, and the uniform was the "Tony Nelson" four-pocket with pewter-finish insignia.  AFRES wasn't a MAJCOM.

Most notably, SAC, MAC and TAC still existed!!!!!!!!

Nonetheless, you learned more about ANG/AFRES than you did CAP (but you were a cadet before going off to BMT, yes?).

When I joined CAP in '93, I learned the concept that CAP was the "fourth leg" of the Air Force's (bar)stool:

1. Active
2. Reserve
3. Guard
4. Auxiliary

Now, from what I've read anecdotally on line in the Air Force Times, MTI's teach trainees to not acknowledge CAP personnel when they encounter them.  That's stupid.

[fyrfitrmedic]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/08/02/honore.debt.politicians/index.html

[abdsp51]

Cyborg most new airmen have a hard time acknowledging anything outside of their bling, paychecks, how much booze they can consume and how to get away with stuff. Id rather have someone who knows how to do the basic job than someone who's had things crammed in their head about an aux organization.

[RADIOMAN015]

Cyborg most new airmen have a hard time acknowledging anything outside of their bling, paychecks, how much booze they can consume and how to get away with stuff. Id rather have someone who knows how to do the basic job than someone who's had things crammed in their head about an aux organization.

I highly doubt the statement above is correct.   Surely there are some that get caught up in a bad cycle of drinking, etc, BUT the AF can be very selective on who they recruit and also who they allow to stay in.  There's plenty of airmen also going to school nights trying to further their career (whether in the military or out of the military).   Most active duty people don't have an interest in joining Civil Air Patrol, they can play "real AF" during their duty day and need to do something else when off duty.  It's a waste of time & money to try to recruit them.
RM   

[DakRadz]

Cyborg most new airmen have a hard time acknowledging anything outside of their bling, paychecks, how much booze they can consume and how to get away with stuff. Id rather have someone who knows how to do the basic job than someone who's had things crammed in their head about an aux organization.

I highly doubt the statement above is correct.   Surely there are some that get caught up in a bad cycle of drinking, etc, BUT the AF can be very selective on who they recruit and also who they allow to stay in.  There's plenty of airmen also going to school nights trying to further their career (whether in the military or out of the military).   Most active duty people don't have an interest in joining Civil Air Patrol, they can play "real AF" during their duty day and need to do something else when off duty.  It's a waste of time & money to try to recruit them.
RM

One, I'm surprised a retired USAF member would claim that new Airmen are "playing" at their job. That's insulting to them and our military. I thought you said the Air Force is selective?

We are not the "fake" Air Force. We are an Auxiliary to a military service. Aren't you the one continually harping on about this very thing?

My first encampment was highly and by far the result of three Active Duty USAF personnel who were also active CAP members. They conducted most classrooms and supervised just about everything else- and knowing what I know now, they did not confuse the line between USAF and CAP in their training sessions with cadets.
It sure is a good thing that the CCs of those three didn't think three highly skilled USAF personnel were a "Waste of Time"

The biggest block to recruiting is people on both sides of one spectrum- those who try to recruit people but do not truly understand our organization.
At one end, we have RADIOMAN- they tell others how we are "wannabees" (unless you've been in the AF like me) and try to troll for salutes, benefits, and access to Area 51. Doesn't sound professional? No wonder they didn't join.

At the other end we have those very few who try to make us seem like something bigger than we are (there are lots of these people if you ask RADIOMAN). They say we are on call 24/7 as if it's actually realistically the case, that we train for 9/11-type disasters so we can run the entire response... Actually I haven't heard people trying to be "posers" so I have no idea what else they might claim about CAP. Ask RM, he seems to have plenty of ideas.

Seriously. Iunno what else there is to add. Negativity just seems to be some people's strong suit.

[PHall]

And once again RADIOMAN015 we ask you, why are you here? Isn't associating with a bunch of wannabes bringing down your self esteem?

[jimmydeanno]

I actually think it was a pretty fair assessment, from both comments.  There is a large segment of junior enlisted personnel that are only interested in the stuff that abdsp51 said.  I see it everyday.  But, there is also a large segment that same population that is dedicated to getting a degree in their first 4-years, moving up the ladder, and being the best Airmen they possibly can.  Both segments are going to have a hard time volunteering with CAP and accomplishing their goals.

Where I disagree is that it is a waste of time and money to try and recruit them.  My current unit is on an Air Force Base.  90% of our senior members are associated with the Air Force in some way - either civilian employee or active duty, or dependent.  We have a good mix of junior enlisted, senior enlisted, and company grade officers.  The other 10% come from the local community, but even they have veteran status.

[AirDX]

Most active duty people don't have an interest in joining Civil Air Patrol, they can play "real AF" during their duty day and need to do something else when off duty.  It's a waste of time & money to try to recruit them.

So wrong.  The composite squadron I am involved with meets on base, and we have a good mix of active duty enlisted and officers.  Our two IT guys are Navy enlisted.  One of the AF enlisted guys is in some kind of emergency magament position, does a great job doing ES training with the cadets.  Got another MSgt who does a great job working with our honor guard.  Some of the officers are with us to fly a bit since they are in non-flying billets.

Some of them are former cadets giving back a bit, and some are just volunteers interested in the program.  Of course it's a two-way street, I think CAP counts towards their Volunteer Service Award (whatever it's called) and it's a good bullet for an O/EER.

But waste?  No.   

[abdsp51]

Radioman first off, I can tell you that's fact from a front line supervisors assessment, all the incidents I have responded to in the dorm area, housing areas, and the blotter entries I read on a daily basis.  Now jimmydeano also said it that many are trying to crank out degrees on top of a high paced duty schedule and deployment schedule.  Waste of time and money to recruit depends on who's trying to join.  I have tried to give back to the organizations in my area and have not had any luck.  People want to harp about how they are treated at their local yards and the relationship between the active folks and CAP is poor well find out why and fix it.  The AF has to change it's training aspects and vision to stay ahead of the game and counter threats, and unless you can pretty much directly link CAP into GWOT and FP then it will not be taught in AF curriculum until higher levels.  You need to sell your program to the AF folks so they know about you or don't. Do not expect the AF to do it for you. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

People want to harp about how they are treated at their local yards and the relationship between the active folks and CAP is poor well find out why and fix it.

In my 18 years in CAP, it has too often seemed that the only way the AF has cared about their end of the relationship is if a CAP member does something stupid in uniform, and to provide warm bodies for Lackland.

The AF has to change it's training aspects and vision to stay ahead of the game and counter threats, and unless you can pretty much directly link CAP into GWOT and FP then it will not be taught in AF curriculum until higher levels.  You need to sell your program to the AF folks so they know about you or don't. Do not expect the AF to do it for you.

It would do well for those in the AF to take a quick look at AFI 10-2701 and AFPD 10-27.

Force protection I don't see we can do much with since we aren't allowed to bear weapons.

But as for GWOT...

[KT]

People want to harp about how they are treated at their local yards and the relationship between the active folks and CAP is poor well find out why and fix it.

In my 18 years in CAP, it has too often seemed that the only way the AF has cared about their end of the relationship is if a CAP member does something stupid in uniform, and to provide warm bodies for Lackland.

The AF has to change it's training aspects and vision to stay ahead of the game and counter threats, and unless you can pretty much directly link CAP into GWOT and FP then it will not be taught in AF curriculum until higher levels.  You need to sell your program to the AF folks so they know about you or don't. Do not expect the AF to do it for you.

It would do well for those in the AF to take a quick look at AFI 10-2701 and AFPD 10-27.

Force protection I don't see we can do much with since we aren't allowed to bear weapons.

But as for GWOT...

Poor example. Pictures from 1 day that could just as easily been taken by a NYC police helicopter or any other number of sources. How exactly did this help with the GWOT?

[abdsp51]

Again how do you directly tie into GWOT? And you need not carry a weapon to support FP.  And those publications outline how CAP is to be setup and supported, nothing in there states that the AF needs to brief it's members on CAP.  Again if you want the AF members to know more of your program sell it to them, don't expect big brother to do it for you.  Visions, missions, and training criteria has changed and since 9/11 if it's not nothing focused on taking the fight to the enemy it will not be taught.  In the grand scheme of things the AF has greater issues to worry about than giving a class to BMT flights about CAP.           

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

First of all, until you are the head of AETC who decides what will or will not be taught to the Air Force, don't pretend that you have the power to decide what is or isn't taught in BMT.  Just who are you referring to as "big brother," incidentally?

If the AF chooses to ignore CAP, then maybe it is indeed time our relationship is terminated.  Nothing lasts forever.  I have no illusions about that. 

And KT, that picture came from an Ohio Wing squadron site.

What "greater issues" are you referring to?  Yet another dorm cleaning/underwear folding session?  I remember those.

Nothing of value would be lost in BMT by a couple of pages in a BMT book (they still do have those, yes?) mentioning CAP.

[davidsinn]

Again how do you directly tie into GWOT? 

Interceptor training? Playing tag with armed fighters is dangerous. Penetrating restricted airspace to train the SAM crews? That's very dangerous because unlike the fighters those guys can't see the aircraft so something could go horribly wrong if everyone doesn't follow the procedures.

[abdsp51]

Greater issues you ask?  Bombs on target, supplies to troops on the ground, close air support and the list can go on and on ensuring that people pay attention to detail to accomplish their job, so that lives are not lost.  I don't head AETC no but AETC has more pressing things than changing their BMT curriculum to include CAP into their manuals and I don't pretend to have the power to decide what is and isn't taught but I can tell that surveys are sent out for feedback on the teaching process so in a indirect way I do have the power to decide what is and isn't taught.  And by "big brother" I mean the AF you insist CAP be briefed in BMT, and have ignored the countless other routes to go to to advertise CAP that would have a bigger impact.  I would rather had a kid come to the unit prepped with the basic know how to do his job than have had to sit through a class on CAP.  Today the go through the courses to prep them to deploy and accomplish their mission down range.  Again until you can directly link to how CAP is going to help an airman who's sole purpose will be pretty much to go downrange and do the job he/she was trained to do it will not be taught.  What does CAP bring to the war-fighting mission that means it is so critical to be taught in BMT? If you want AF members to know about CAP go the FTAC route and present the information there and sell the program don't expect the AF to do it for you.  The best form of advertising has always been word of mouth.

[abdsp51]

Again how do you directly tie into GWOT? 

Interceptor training? Playing tag with armed fighters is dangerous. Penetrating restricted airspace to train the SAM crews? That's very dangerous because unlike the fighters those guys can't see the aircraft so something could go horribly wrong if everyone doesn't follow the procedures.

When was the last CAP unit to provide those services? 

[jeders]

Again how do you directly tie into GWOT? 

Interceptor training? Playing tag with armed fighters is dangerous. Penetrating restricted airspace to train the SAM crews? That's very dangerous because unlike the fighters those guys can't see the aircraft so something could go horribly wrong if everyone doesn't follow the procedures.

When was the last CAP unit to provide those services?

Ever hear of Falcon Virgo?

[RiverAux]

What does CAP bring to the war-fighting mission that means it is so critical to be taught in BMT? If you want AF members to know about

Whatever SECAF wants us to bring.  Its not like its up to us.
US Code Title 10 Sec 9442

The Secretary of the Air Force may use the services of the Civil Air Patrol to fulfill the noncombat programs and missions of the Department of the Air Force.

Heck, they could have CAP members teaching at basic training if SECAF wanted to go that route. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

When was the last CAP unit to provide those services?

Florida Wing has done it.

Wisconsin Wing has as well.

http://wiwgcap.org/wing/content/view/171/1/

Please tell me how a new Airman's mission readiness would be denigrated by a couple of pages in a BMT manual dealing with CAP.

Yes, I come from the pre-9/11 days...but I don't consider the days of keeping Soviet bombers out of US airspace any less important or dangerous than GWOT.

[davidsinn]

Again how do you directly tie into GWOT? 

Interceptor training? Playing tag with armed fighters is dangerous. Penetrating restricted airspace to train the SAM crews? That's very dangerous because unlike the fighters those guys can't see the aircraft so something could go horribly wrong if everyone doesn't follow the procedures.

When was the last CAP unit to provide those services?

Don't read the Volunteer I take it? It's one of NatCap wing's ongoing missions.

[abdsp51]

Jeders can't say that I have.  River if the SECAF wanted, your right on that note and he has not exercised that.  For BMT they want the folks with deployment experience and their CCAF.  Ping command chiefs and the CMSAF and see what they would say on the topic?  Do I feel CAP is a useful organization yes, many benefit from it daily I know I did when I was in, however the scheme of things have changed.  The current focus is giving the new airman the skills needed to survive in a deployed location.  There is more critical information that needs to be presented in BMT than a two page blurb in the manual about CAP.  I have not objected to AF members being told about CAP I have just said there are more efficient means to go about it BMT is not the place for it. 

[abdsp51]

Again how do you directly tie into GWOT? 

Interceptor training? Playing tag with armed fighters is dangerous. Penetrating restricted airspace to train the SAM crews? That's very dangerous because unlike the fighters those guys can't see the aircraft so something could go horribly wrong if everyone doesn't follow the procedures.

When was the last CAP unit to provide those services?

Don't read the Volunteer I take it? It's one of NatCap wing's ongoing missions.

No I don't. 

[Tim Medeiros]

Put it this way, the only way I'm certain I was taught something at BMT is the fact that I have it noted in my BMTSG (that BMT book you mentioned earlier).  IMHO, a class on CAP would be lost on the trainees at BMT.  There are simply many more things that have higher importance to an Airman than what he/she may chose to do in his/her off time after tech school, and like I said earlier, ANG and AFRES were merely mentioned in passing.  Of course, things may have changed as starting with flight 326(ish) there was a new BMTSG and new/different classes.

Also, just so you know, there was approximately 58 classes (each with its own chapter in the BMTSG) and 32 were testable on the End of Course exam, personally I think there is enough "fluff".

[abdsp51]

Please tell me how a new Airman's mission readiness would be denigrated by a couple of pages in a BMT manual dealing with CAP.

Please tell me how it's going to increase their readiness?  Impact it, they have to recall self aid buddy care, SPORTS,  their D&C for eval , ensuring they are passing their PT evals, passing BEAST, understanding OPSEC/INFOSEC,  this is a just a small list if you want to sell CAP do it at FTAC or newcomers briefings. 

[DakRadz]

Again how do you directly tie into GWOT? 

Interceptor training? Playing tag with armed fighters is dangerous. Penetrating restricted airspace to train the SAM crews? That's very dangerous because unlike the fighters those guys can't see the aircraft so something could go horribly wrong if everyone doesn't follow the procedures.

When was the last CAP unit to provide those services?

Don't read the Volunteer I take it? It's one of NatCap wing's ongoing missions.

Heh, he isn't a member. "Do I feel CAP is a useful organization yes, many benefit from it daily I know I did when I was in"

Gotta love the "if I don't know about it (even if I'm not a member) it ain't happenin'" attitude.



Also, this is so far off topic we'll be seeing The Object Formerly Known As Planet Pluto out your right port window in T-5 minutes.

[abdsp51]

Heh, he isn't a member. "Do I feel CAP is a useful organization yes, many benefit from it daily I know I did when I was in"

Gotta love the "if I don't know about it (even if I'm not a member) it ain't happenin'" attitude.

Simply because I do not know about something does not mean I have said attitude.  All that I have said is that BMT is not the place for briefing CAP. 

[RADIOMAN015]

And once again RADIOMAN015 we ask you, why are you here? Isn't associating with a bunch of wannabes bringing down your self esteem?

I believe in the missions of Civil Air Patrol, not the "silliness" of some in the organization.   Active duty (as well as guard & reserve members in the AF (especially now) are "stressed" due to a variety of reasons.  I don't think those with young families or even single members, who are trying to complete there upgrade training and also get some college education, have the time to invest in Civil Air Patrol.  Surely there's going to be some fairly rare exceptions to this.  I do know that in the last 3 years we've recruited 3 AFR members, and all 3 did not renew.  I also know another individual, who is an air reserve technician, that was a CAP member in the unit quite a few years ago.  I asked him frankly why he didn't renew and the main reason given is it was too much like he did during the day and he wanted to do something different.

We all need a rest from our daily jobs, those folks in the active, reserve, and guard work hard and face some real challenges in today's environment.   

When I look at our local history of military member retention, I see it as a waste of time to target recruit adults/senior members in the military.   HOWEVER, if they have specialized training and want to provide a class/orientation or cadets & seniors  they are welcome to contribute, BUT that doesn't mean we need them to be members.  We've used those resources for our program with good success.

My personal feeling is we are "CIVIL" Air Patrol, and it is  better to have those in command positions that are not currently in the military (retired or separated for about 5 years are fine), since a civilian has a different orientation/approach than a military member and is much better in working with a volunteer "civilian" staff.   IF you are only recruiting military members on the base, and no one (senior members) outside the fence line, you have a problem.       

Budget wise, I can see CAP taking a real hit in the future budget implementation years and wouldn't be very surprised if 35% to 50% of the aircraft get grounded and the Nation HQ staff gets cut between 40-60% .
RM       

[Tim Medeiros]

Please tell me how a new Airman's mission readiness would be denigrated by a couple of pages in a BMT manual dealing with CAP.

Please tell me how it's going to increase their readiness?  Impact it, they have to recall self aid buddy care, SPORTS,  their D&C for eval , ensuring they are passing their PT evals, passing BEAST, understanding OPSEC/INFOSEC,  this is a just a small list if you want to sell CAP do it at FTAC or newcomers briefings.

I'd be more than happy to expand on that list.


I agree, a better place would be FTAC/newcomers orientation.

[NCRblues]

FTAC is the place to brief about CAP.

My FTAC experience was a joke at best. Over half of my 2 week FTAC was a complete waste of time. I ended up asking my supervisor to start my CDC's early.

During the FTAC weeks, the group of about 40 new airman got 3 base tours. THREE. Waste of time, could be filled with a quick briefing on CAP.

During FTAC we got a tour of the BX and commissary...again, waste of time. 

If you all so desperately want airman to know about cap, send it up the chain to cap-usaf, and say add it to FTAC. BMT is not the place, nor is tech school.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Please tell me how it's going to increase their readiness?  Impact it, they have to recall self aid buddy care, SPORTS,  their D&C for eval , ensuring they are passing their PT evals, passing BEAST, understanding OPSEC/INFOSEC,  this is a just a small list if you want to sell CAP do it at FTAC or newcomers briefings.

Anything that increases awareness of the Air Force, including its Auxiliary, is going to be beneficial...even if they're not tested on it.

A lot of the things in your list, admittedly, weren't part of the curriculum years and years ago ...but that was in the day of MAC/TAC/SAC, four-pocket service dress, the BMTSG being just a bunch of (badly) photocopied pages stapled together, buck sergeants, being called "Airman" from the getgo, no Airman's Coin...and lots of folding socks and underpants.

What is inexcusable is (admittedly anecdotal) accounts I've read in Air Force Times about Airmen trainees at BMT being told by MTI's to ignore and/or not acknowledge CAP members if they see them.  That is just out-and-out RUDE.

Perhaps FTAC is the place to talk about CAP.  However, the YMMV comes into the equation...one AFB may have a strong CAP presence and another may have little to none.

The only way for there to avoid a lot of the misunderstandings and outright falsehoods between the AF and CAP is learning about one another and interacting with each other.  It does absolutely no good if Lieutenant Joe Blow, CAP thinks he's entitled to a salute from MSgt Jane Blayne, USAF or for Airman Newkid, USAF to blow off the old chap/chapess with the grey epaulettes simply because SrA Loud Mouth, USAF MTI told him to one day at Lackland.

Anyway, are you a CAP member, and if not, what are you doing here on this board?

[abdsp51]

First the Air Force Times shouldn't be taken seriously as an official source for anything same as anything military times related.  And maybe at Lackland there have been issues with CAP personnel there I don't know so I am not going to touch it.  I have interacted with many CAP personnel since I have been active some pleasant some not so pleasant. Am I a member no I am not and I haven't been for a long time, and I have made no attempts to hide it.  I do believe in giving back to programs that I have benefited from in any capacity I can.  And honestly Airman Newkid will blow off just about anyone not in their chain regardless of what someone wears.       

[AirDX]

Interceptor training? Playing tag with armed fighters is dangerous.

That's a once or twice a month event out here.  Not dangerous at all as long as everyone sticks to the plan.

[AirDX]

When was the last CAP unit to provide those services?

We flew two sorties against the Montana Guard F-15s on 27 July.

[davidsinn]

Interceptor training? Playing tag with armed fighters is dangerous.

That's a once or twice a month event out here.  Not dangerous at all as long as everyone sticks to the plan.

Things do go wrong. I highly doubt there will ever be an incident but it's not as safe as being a towel boy in the base gym.

[JeffDG]

Please tell me how a new Airman's mission readiness would be denigrated by a couple of pages in a BMT manual dealing with CAP.

Well, since you're advocating the change, how would a new Airman's mission readiness be enhanced by this?

[RiverAux]

Anyway, are you a CAP member, and if not, what are you doing here on this board?

Gee, are you complaining that someone in the AF has some level of interest in what CAP is and what it does?  Isn't this the sort of awareness within the AF community that you were advocating? 

[Eclipse]

Please tell me how a new Airman's mission readiness would be denigrated by a couple of pages in a BMT manual dealing with CAP.

Well, since you're advocating the change, how would a new Airman's mission readiness be enhanced by this?

A) Not being a "you know what" to people in  a similar uniform who are just trying to help.

B) When asked or tasked with interaction, see "A".

C) Opening up the opportunities CAP offers for both community service points and activities normally available to the average, non-aircrew E2.
We tend to assume that everyone who enlists (officers, too), has this hard-kewl, amazing, life-changing job that so far out-shadows CAP's offerings
are so pale as to be transparent, when in fact, there are plenty of MOS's which involve little anything aviation-related or traditionally "hard-kewl",
and CAP wold be a welcome distraction, potential career enhancement, and as we all know, "fun".  An officer job is an office job, uniform or not.

As a general rule, active, engaged CAP memberships makes better "people" and better "citizens", being both or either makes for better Airmen, especially in the age range most join and leave.

Which is a better use of time?  A unit meeting, couch groove, or local bar?  #2 & 3 are where a lot of new Airmen spend their evenings (along with their peers, both in and out of the military).

[abdsp51]

I would have no objections to any of my guys taking off to go participate in a CAP function or anything community service related.  All I have said was that BMT and Tech School are not the places to brief about CAP.  FTAC is better suited for it same with newcomers briefings. 

IMO perception is that AF needs to sell CAP to its service members and not CAP sell itself to service members.  Anyone remember a car dealer named Cal Worthington?  He sold himself and his dealership not Chevy, Ford or any other car company whose product he sold he did it.

I have had good encounters with CAP members and bad encounters with CAP members since I have been in.  On my first base I stopped a CAP member with emergency lights in his vehicle and when questioned about it got defensive about it and acted like I knew nothing of the organization.  Had a couple here many years ago at the current base get upset because they didn't get a salute rolling through the gate.

Should there be awareness yes but it's not something to be taught in BMT or Tech School.  Can the program led to self/community improvement yes, but there are other more functional avenues to present the information. 

[AirDX]

Agreed - FTAC and even more productively for squadrons on/near a base, base newcomers briefings.  You'll catch not only service members but you can bring the cadet program to their attention for their dependents, as well.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I don't really think it's a matter of CAP "selling" ourselves to the Air Force.

By law and statute, we are already available to the Air Force for whatever use SECAF deems within the limitations of said law and statute.

Good examples have been made of interceptor training by CAP aircraft with (mostly) ANG fighter units, but certainly that isn't all there is.

Our check pilots could be usable for Air Force Initial Flight Screening, which they are currently paying a civilian contractor to do.

http://www.baseops.net/militarypilot/usaf_ift.html

My squadron has a retired USMC and current airline pilot on staff.  A former squadron of mine had an active USAir pilot.

Again, I think the issue is awareness - as in making the AF aware they have this cadre of volunteers to assist them.

They were obviously aware of us at one time...I'm not sure exactly what happened.

[lordmonar]

Heck....I would be happy with a page in the promotion study guide and paragraph in the BMTS study guide.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Heck....I would be happy with a page in the promotion study guide and paragraph in the BMTS study guide.

Seconded.  I don't think that's asking much.

[lordmonar]

Again how do you directly tie into GWOT? 

Interceptor training? Playing tag with armed fighters is dangerous. Penetrating restricted airspace to train the SAM crews? That's very dangerous because unlike the fighters those guys can't see the aircraft so something could go horribly wrong if everyone doesn't follow the procedures.

When was the last CAP unit to provide those services?

Don't read the Volunteer I take it? It's one of NatCap wing's ongoing missions.

Let's not forget the support we are giving the DoD through the FMV programs.  That is 100% in support of OEF, OND operations.

Also in the volunteer....I am on page 10....but they got my name wrong.