When are Cadets, Cadets?

[SarDragon]

And sadly, generally speaking, common sense is frequently not so common.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Lighten up, Francis.

BTW, if you are NOT prone to violence, you won't be worth a fart in a windstorm in combat.

Times have changed in the military, being "prone to violence" is not in keeping with the current rules of engagement

You are probably right.  That's why we're losing.

[High Speed Low Drag]

Sorry to be that guy.

But if by this logic, If my mom makes Lt, I have to greet her 24/7/365 even at home?

Does USAF CMSgt Dahl have to call his son, USAF Capt Dahl, "sir" and "Captain" everytime he talks to him?  Does our squadron commander, Captain Wingfield call his wife, the squadron legal officer Maj. Wingfield "Ma'am" and "Major" when they are discussin what to make for dinner?

No.  Common sense dictates that there is a time and place for everything and in the exclusive environment of the family, rank/grade is not appropriate.  However, in a professional environment, even on a discussion board related to the organization, customs and courtesies are appropriate. 

[Short Field]

You are probably right.  That's why we're losing.

You think we are losing because our warriors no longer have a fighting spirit?  Get real!!!  Being capable of violence and able to deal it out when needed is not the same as "prone to violence".  My ADHD nephew is prone to violence - we keep him medicated.

[DogCollar]

Sorry to be that guy.

But if by this logic, If my mom makes Lt, I have to greet her 24/7/365 even at home?

Even she weren't a Lt, you should greet her with respect 24/7/365, because she's your mom!  No one outranks mom!!!!

[Major Carrales]

Sorry to be that guy.

But if by this logic, If my mom makes Lt, I have to greet her 24/7/365 even at home?

Even she weren't a Lt, you should greet her with respect 24/7/365, because she's your mom!  No one outranks mom!!!!

It would seem, dear friends, that some here may think that respect is an optional "burden."  This is likely a sign of the times where one is more likely to be shot "the bird" than a friendly greeting like a wave or salute.  That may be the case, however, if you are a CAP member you should automatically default to a position of respectful civility.

That is what the real issue is here.  Not "Do I have to salute Lt Col Sowinsow at the Lion's Club pancake dinner?" but rather "Do I have to show respect if I don't have to."  The answer to which is..."if you have to ask...you likely need to develop your sense of respect."

Honestly, does it hurt to show good manners or courtesies?  I'm not asking for people to mow people's lawns for free or genuflect before someone of higher rank...just be respectful.

[CadetProgramGuy]

I choose "Other"  Here is why....

Treading very lightly, there is an OPSEC and FOUO if I get too detailed, but there was a "discussion" about this very topic a few years ago concerning when are cadets - cadets, and when are Officers, Officers.

Here is what the official answer is that came back to us.

"Cadets are Cadets (replace as necessary for Officers) when on Official CAP duties to include travel from their point of departure until such time as they return to that point of departure."

Back to me now......

I was also informed that this was also meant to include cadets that were of age to consume tobacco.  Meaning that Cadet X is 18, and a smoker could not light up until she/he got home, even if she/he changed out of CAP uniform before they left.  Hard to prove in the end, but thats what I was lead to believe.

[Short Field]

Treading very lightly, there is an OPSEC and FOUO if I get too detailed,

There might be personal privacy concerns, but there is no way OPSEC or FOUO concerns can apply to a definition of when is a cadet a cadet.

The crux of this discussion boils down to when can a cadet be held responsible for his actions in CAP.  A lot of people, including me, believe a cadet is always responsible for his actions and can be held to the standard we hold all cadets to.  Are there exceptions - sure.  Uncle Joe is still Uncle Joe whenever the cadet is not at a CAP function and would probably be hard to not address as Uncle Joe during.a CAP function.  Parents in CAP - I don't even want to go there.  Cadet of legal age seen smoking out of uniform and not at a CAP function - not worth my time except for a one-time lecture on the ills of smoking.   Disrespectful comments or pictures about CAP or CAP members posted on a social web site - you bet the cadet is in trouble.     

[Ozzy]

*sigh* Looking at all of this makes me think that it all boils down to when should we display customs and courtesies, right?

Which the answer is always YES. However it also depends on the situation. During CAP activities or events or on a military installation, then we follow the 'military C&Cs'. When out of uniform and not performing on a military installation or participating in a CAP activity then you follow the normal everyday 'civilian C&Cs.

In case you didn't know,

Military courtesy is an extension and a formalization of courtesies practiced in a culture's everyday life. It is intended to reinforce discipline and the chain of command, defining how soldiers will treat their superiors and vice versa.

[JoeTomasone]

*sigh* Looking at all of this makes me think that it all boils down to when should we display customs and courtesies, right?

Which the answer is always YES. However it also depends on the situation. During CAP activities or events or on a military installation, then we follow the 'military C&Cs'. When out of uniform and not performing on a military installation or participating in a CAP activity then you follow the normal everyday 'civilian C&Cs.

In case you didn't know,

Military courtesy is an extension and a formalization of courtesies practiced in a culture's everyday life. It is intended to reinforce discipline and the chain of command, defining how soldiers will treat their superiors and vice versa.

When in civilian clothes, I render C&C based on how awkward the situation would be with respect to outside onlookers.


If I go to my Commander's house and we're both in civies, it's full C&C with the exception of saluting.   

If I run into him at the supermarket, I'll greet him with "sir", but won't address him by grade or "yes sir/no sir" everything he says.   

Of course, if I am in uniform, it's full C&C..  Onlookers would realize that I am addressing a superior who happens to be out of uniform at the moment.   It's when you're both out of uniform that people would look at you funny.

[JayT]

I choose "Other"  Here is why....

Treading very lightly, there is an OPSEC and FOUO if I get too detailed, but there was a "discussion" about this very topic a few years ago concerning when are cadets - cadets, and when are Officers, Officers.

Here is what the official answer is that came back to us.

"Cadets are Cadets (replace as necessary for Officers) when on Official CAP duties to include travel from their point of departure until such time as they return to that point of departure."

Back to me now......

I was also informed that this was also meant to include cadets that were of age to consume tobacco.  Meaning that Cadet X is 18, and a smoker could not light up until she/he got home, even if she/he changed out of CAP uniform before they left.  Hard to prove in the end, but thats what I was lead to believe.

OPSEC and FUOU, eh? What does that mean again? What does that have to do with 'when a cadet is a cadet' ?

[Major Lord]

Prone to violence? That makes you a survivor ( or in some cases, a lunatic, although the two are not mutually exclusive)
Slow to violence? Excellent, plenty of good trauma practice for our EMS folks.
Non-violent? We will admire your fine ethical qualities....We will probably talk about these and all your idealistic qualities....at your funeral.

The world has as much room for wolves as sheep and sheepdogs! Its your choice.

Major Lord

[a2capt]

Walk right in ... it's around the back ...
Just a half a mile from ..  the railroad track ...

[coolkites]

I feel that many of these opinions are coming from SMs and thus I wanted to give my opinion. I ran into my squadron commander the other day when I was walking across the parking lot from taco-bell. Was it awkward? You bet! He said hello and I responded the same. It was no big deal. I'm a teenager and I have been known to use a choice word or two every now or then. I don't feel that I should be kicked out of CAP for being an average teenager. My squadron's Cadet Commander attended the same highschool as me. When we passed in the hallway we did not exchange salutes nor go by Commander or Cadet. Why? Because that would be weird! I may be a Cadet but I also have a social life and CAP is not something that I want to play a role in that. We mutually agreed (unspoken) that we could socialize at school without having to bring CAP into the picture. I attend school with many CAP cadets, most of whom I knew before I joined CAP. I see no reason to have to change my relationship with these people purely because I joined CAP. Just my two cents.

[SarDragon]

And common sense wins again! Give him a gold star!

[HGjunkie]

I feel that many of these opinions are coming from SMs and thus I wanted to give my opinion. I ran into my squadron commander the other day when I was walking across the parking lot from taco-bell. Was it awkward? You bet! He said hello and I responded the same. It was no big deal. I'm a teenager and I have been known to use a choice word or two every now or then. I don't feel that I should be kicked out of CAP for being an average teenager. My squadron's Cadet Commander attended the same highschool as me. When we passed in the hallway we did not exchange salutes nor go by Commander or Cadet. Why? Because that would be weird! I may be a Cadet but I also have a social life and CAP is not something that I want to play a role in that. We mutually agreed (unspoken) that we could socialize at school without having to bring CAP into the picture. I attend school with many CAP cadets, most of whom I knew before I joined CAP. I see no reason to have to change my relationship with these people purely because I joined CAP. Just my two cents.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Me too, but we just called each other by our names even though I met them through CAP.

[High Speed Low Drag]

I feel that many of these opinions are coming from SMs and thus I wanted to give my opinion. I ran into my squadron commander the other day when I was walking across the parking lot from taco-bell. Was it awkward? You bet! He said hello and I responded the same. It was no big deal. I'm a teenager and I have been known to use a choice word or two every now or then. I don't feel that I should be kicked out of CAP for being an average teenager. My squadron's Cadet Commander attended the same highschool as me. When we passed in the hallway we did not exchange salutes nor go by Commander or Cadet. Why? Because that would be weird! I may be a Cadet but I also have a social life and CAP is not something that I want to play a role in that. We mutually agreed (unspoken) that we could socialize at school without having to bring CAP into the picture. I attend school with many CAP cadets, most of whom I knew before I joined CAP. I see no reason to have to change my relationship with these people purely because I joined CAP. Just my two cents.

Like SarDragon said, Common sense wins again.  You weren't talking or posting about CAP in an open forum, you weren't at a CAP event, and you were with your peers (cadets).  However, when you met your squadron commander at Taco Bell, you admittedit was awkward but you said hello.  Customs & Courtesies win again.  You didn't tell him what policies of his you thought were stupid, you didn't tell him about how you felt about other senior members, etc.  You were professional and polite.  No difference than posting on a public forum.  That's what C & C is for, getting through awkward moments and situations with a clear set of rules spell out how we interact, especially when we are in public (either in person or through the internet).  And respect is ALWAYS in order.

[JK657]

Lighten up, Francis.

BTW, if you are NOT prone to violence, you won't be worth a fart in a windstorm in combat.

Times have changed in the military, being "prone to violence" is not in keeping with the current rules of engagement

You are probably right.  That's why we're losing.

I take a lot of offense to your statement.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Lighten up, Francis.

BTW, if you are NOT prone to violence, you won't be worth a fart in a windstorm in combat.

Times have changed in the military, being "prone to violence" is not in keeping with the current rules of engagement

You are probably right.  That's why we're losing.

I take a lot of offense to your statement.

OK, Lieutenant, your offense is noted.  So, YOU tell me why we are losing if not due to overly-restrictive rules of engagement.

[Major Lord]

A Cadet is always a Cadet, as long as they are a Cadet member, Res ispa loquitur The fact that the relationship between Cadets and Seniors, or Cadets and the RM, changes somewhat according to the social situation notwithstanding. If a Cadet in civilian clothes were to jump to attention out of uniform because an exalted Senior Member walked in to the same Taco Bell, I would counsel them to be cool and to tailor their behavior to the situation. The real questions come to the fore in cases like the two cadets who appeared on MTV, and were shown in School and CAP activities, the former while noticeably drunken, and swilling beer. The public association with their behaviors and CAP was inexcusable, and their own sense of propriety should have prevented this. Fail. The same status holds equally true for Senior Members ( Although because our organization in HQ'd in Maxwell Alabama, a certain amount of beer and smoking is unavoidable, perhaps even mandated)

Major Lord