Quote from: abdsp51 on May 08, 2016, 01:00:00 AM

Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on May 08, 2016, 12:53:41 AM

Quote from: abdsp51 on May 07, 2016, 11:12:52 PM

Quote from: PHall on May 07, 2016, 10:46:02 PM
How big is this "Law Enforcement Discount"? May not be worth the trouble.

Yup.  Honestly I see an ethical issue here too.  We are not first responders by any means

Please be sure to let the National First Responders Organization know: http://www.nfro.org/who.html

Got something better?  We are not first responders...

You should let them know. They think otherwise.

Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on May 08, 2016, 01:49:46 AM

Quote from: abdsp51 on May 08, 2016, 01:00:00 AM

Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on May 08, 2016, 12:53:41 AM

Quote from: abdsp51 on May 07, 2016, 11:12:52 PM

Quote from: PHall on May 07, 2016, 10:46:02 PM
How big is this "Law Enforcement Discount"? May not be worth the trouble.

Yup.  Honestly I see an ethical issue here too.  We are not first responders by any means

Please be sure to let the National First Responders Organization know: http://www.nfro.org/who.html

Got something better?  We are not first responders...

You should let them know. They think otherwise.

Webster disagrees...  PLus a good chunk of entities on that list are not first responders...


Definition of first responder

    :  a person (as a police officer or an EMT) who is among those responsible for going immediately to the scene of an accident or emergency to provide assistance

Quote from: abdsp51 on May 08, 2016, 01:53:03 AM

Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on May 08, 2016, 01:49:46 AM

Quote from: abdsp51 on May 08, 2016, 01:00:00 AM

Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on May 08, 2016, 12:53:41 AM

Quote from: abdsp51 on May 07, 2016, 11:12:52 PM

Quote from: PHall on May 07, 2016, 10:46:02 PM
How big is this "Law Enforcement Discount"? May not be worth the trouble.

Yup.  Honestly I see an ethical issue here too.  We are not first responders by any means

Please be sure to let the National First Responders Organization know: http://www.nfro.org/who.html

Got something better?  We are not first responders...

You should let them know. They think otherwise.

Webster disagrees...  PLus a good chunk of entities on that list are not first responders...


Definition of first responder

    :  a person (as a police officer or an EMT) who is among those responsible for going immediately to the scene of an accident or emergency to provide assistance

Again, you should let the national organization representing them know that they are wrong.

You should also take care of HSPD-8.

Section 2d.

Quote(d) The term "first responder" refers to those individuals who in the early stages of an incident are
responsible for the protection and preservation of life, property, evidence, and the environment, including
emergency response providers as defined in section 2 of the Homeland Security Act of 2002 (6 U.S.C.
101), as well as emergency management, public health, clinical care, public works, and other skilled
support personnel (such as equipment operators) that provide immediate support services during
prevention, response, and recovery operations.

6 U.S.C. § 101 - Definitions

(6) The term emergency response providers includes Federal, State, and local governmental and nongovernmental emergency public safety, fire, law enforcement, emergency response, emergency medical (including hospital emergency facilities), and related personnel, agencies, and authorities.

Note NGO emergency response qualifies.

Quote
...cancel  my AF Association and NFRO memberships. 

Silly!

Quote
I don't think these associations have categorized CAP correctly.

Childish. Unprofessional.

Quote
   To not cancel my memberships would be disrespectful to first responders and those that have served in the AF.

I worked for three years as an orderly at a hospital. Saw or had to deal at least with 10 bodies. Lots of spontaneous abortions. Had 3 years as an EMT, worked about 4 to 5 years with two volunteer ambulance corps. Have about 17 years as a CAP member, participated in about 5 missions.

I acknowledge that my experience is not as widespread nor as intense as others in this board. But I do feel if another association, entity, person, etc. wants to honor what we do, why do we question it?

Did you ever listen to the training we give? We may not want to salute a man military officer because we do not like him/her, but we do have to salute him/her anyway for what they represent???

Did you ever think that we may not necessarily agree with the President's policies and party, but we do salute him as the leader of the organization?

Did you ever think that Civil Air Patrol has as members:
1. Law enforcement (First Responders!)
2. Military (First Responders!)
3. Others also recognized as First Responders...
4. Many, many others that died working as First Responders...

When you post a message like you did on number 16 you insult all those members. And you insulted me.

Are you retarded or have a problem identifying sarcasm when you see it?  You might consider reading a thread further before you post.

Unfortunately digital written media does not has a sarcasm filter.

Face-to-face communications have other means where we are given clues to note when someone is using sarcasm.

Several other posters also answered your post. I guess they, with more or less experience on this board than I have, also could not detect your sarcasm...

What other insult will you have for them?

Now you are just full of it.  You didn't read the thread before posting.  If you had, we wouldn't have been victims to your word soup of a post. 

QuoteSorry but we are not LE in any shape or fashion and taking advantage of it cheapens it to those who perform that function.  I can tell you that if I was still wearing a badge and was doing business with this company I would no longer shop with them and advise my friends and family to do the same

Meh....as someone who thinks this thread is kind of hilarious  most "law enforcement" discounts are put towards anyone in a public service role.  I've had restaurants and the like try to give me their advertised "law enforcement" or "firefighter" discounts when I was wearing a shirt from an agency or unit that is neither of those.  I don't class CAP ES as anything other than first responders.  There may be a really, really long response time most of the time but anyone sticking their neck out to help anyone else in the initial stage of an emergency is a first responder.  It doesn't make me- or anyone else who is acting like anything other than a petulant child- feel like less of provider to get the airborne and ground pounder SAR guys lumped in. 

CAP has lost several crews in the line of duty and to claim that CAP members (when in ES mode) are any less than first responders disparages their memories.   Brothers and sisters are brothers and sisters regardless of the uniform, the patch on the sleeve or the rank involved.  We may make fun of one another in a lot of circumstances but we're all still family.

That said, since I don't have any desire to own a weapon and generally refuse to take a discount for my service in any capacity (said as someone who has served through affiliation with the military, fire, EMS and a coroner's office), this doesn't matter much to me.

QuoteI worked for three years as an orderly at a hospital. Saw or had to deal at least with 10 bodies.

You probably don't want to open the "Who's seen more bodies than whom" can of worms.  I can tell you flat out that you're going to lose that one.  LOL

Damron, that said, even if he missed the sarcasm it is not carte blanche to lose your professionalism.  Even if it's the internet, remember that you're not only representing yourself here but also the organization and your unit.  If you wouldn't say it in front of your commander, don't post it on here.

Kassr, on the same message you quoted from, I stated the following:

Quote
I acknowledge that my experience is not as widespread nor as intense as others in this board.

What did you think I meant by that? Or did you not read that far??? I am surprised!

That others have worked with 5, 10 times or more what I dealt with!!!

How do you read messages? Scan them so you do not understand the entire message???

Luis, Crash - knock it off. This isn't a urinating competition. Or take it to PM and let the rest of us move on.

I think it is important that our membership fully understands that we are not first responders. To think otherwise gets us into trouble when members recklessly exceed the speed limit in POVs and (gasp) COVs because "I'm on a mission!" or other such nonsense.

The practical definition of a first responder is the group of folks you call first when there is an emergency. That's not CAP. Unless there's someone plugged in with a PSAP that I've never heard about, CAP isn't getting the tones in the middle of the night to change pajamas and jump into an airplane.

In fact, any organization that takes 2-3 hours to get crews to an aircraft shouldn't consider itself anywhere near a first responding agency.

This doesn't diminish what CAP does nor should we lose a sense of urgency when on a search. We just need to acknowledge where our cog fits in this wheel.

Is everyone missing the whole list that was posted?

Properly, it is a "professional" discount. Usually CAP is included, in my experience, because the owner is rather familiar with the program.

And since they also list TSA and commercial pilots, I don't think CAP is being thrown into something that doesn't already have non-LEO/non-FR groups included. I mean, TSA. Really?

I believe people here in the majority do not take the time to read entire messages, they just scan the first two or three lines and post. Missing the focus of the message.

This is why we can't have nice stuff.

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on May 08, 2016, 03:04:52 AM
Kassr, on the same message you quoted from, I stated the following:

Quote
I acknowledge that my experience is not as widespread nor as intense as others in this board.

What did you think I meant by that? Or did you not read that far??? I am surprised!

That others have worked with 5, 10 times or more what I dealt with!!!

How do you read messages? Scan them so you do not understand the entire message???

I was trying to avoid you giving Damron anything further to go after because it seemed like you were opening up your flank to an attack there.  I could care less who has seen the most bodies , who has been a CAP member longer than whom, etc.  Anyone who judges based solely on the "numbers" is probably going about it the wrong way.

QuoteI believe people here in the majority do not take the time to read entire messages, they just scan the first two or three lines and post. Missing the focus of the message.

As opposed to you who seemed to have missed the entire last half of my message where I was telling Damron to stop acting like a petulant child?  No one here has anyone claim to be above a simple mistake.  Not myself, not you, not anyone else.

Now, how about everyone take a deep breath and we just continue this discussion in person over beers some time?

Quote from: Fubar on May 08, 2016, 10:11:24 AMIn fact, any organization that takes 2-3 hours to get crews to an aircraft shouldn't consider itself anywhere near a first responding agency.

So....I'm guessing that you believe that the USAR teams, many HAZMAT crews (at the technician level in rural areas), etc aren't first responders either? Wildland firefighters?  DMORT? Non-CAP ground SAR teams?  All of these can take hours to days to get on-site let alone doing anything useful.   

Back to the original intent of this post, the OP stated that he called the discount by the incorrect name and that it is actually called a "professional" discount by the company.  Even if the company wanted to call it a "first responder" discount, it is their choice to decide who to include in that group and not ours.  If they choose to include CAP then great.  I have been to places that offer a "first responder" discount but not a military discount and they rightfully don't include the military as a first responder.  No skin off of my back.  It is their choice who to offer a discount to.  I've had one try to give me their first responder discount even though it was for fire, law enforcement and EMS.  I politely declined and thanked them for giving a discount to those organizations.

Quote from: KASSRCrashResearch on May 08, 2016, 05:57:59 PM

Quote from: Fubar on May 08, 2016, 10:11:24 AMIn fact, any organization that takes 2-3 hours to get crews to an aircraft shouldn't consider itself anywhere near a first responding agency.

So....I'm guessing that you believe that the USAR teams, many HAZMAT crews (at the technician level in rural areas), etc aren't first responders either? Wildland firefighters?  DMORT? Non-CAP ground SAR teams?  All of these can take hours to days to get on-site let alone doing anything useful.

None of those organizations that you mentioned are first responders and neither is CAP.  An example of a  first responder is an organization that the 911 operator would engage to respond to a call like the police, fire and EMS.  By definition a "first responder" is someone who gets the call first and CAP and none of the organizations you mentioned rarely if ever get the call first.  They all usually are contacted by local authorities who are already on the scene.

QuoteAn example of a  first responder is an organization that the 911 operator would engage to respond to a call like the police, fire and EMS.  By definition a "first responder" is someone who gets the call first and CAP and none of the organizations you mentioned rarely if ever get the call first.  They all usually are contacted by local authorities who are already on the scene.

You don't understand how ground SAR often works outside of the CAP system do you?  All of the ones I am familiar with are dispatched through the 911 system.  It might be a phone tree triggered by a call to the duty officer from the 911 EOC but it's still probably going to happen fairly quickly in an actual backwoods "Hey X is missing out there somewhere".  It's less quick in cases where the subject is likely in a confined area (escaped Alzheimer's patient or a child who wanders off from an urban setting for example) but the notice will still get put out as an initial resource.   The same applies to wildland fire crews which- when on seasonal alert- are often given marching orders as an initial resource based on 911 calls (or so I have been told....Indiana isn't wildland fire territory).  What gets tagged as an initial resource is going to be largely dependent upon the nature of the event.  If you have an airliner punch a hole in a corn field, yeah....the first on scene is probably going to be a bunch of local fire, EMS and police.  But I can tell you based on my day job that within the hour (or sooner if the team commander sees it on the news beforehand), a call has gone out to the state mortuary response team and the regional DMORT team has been put on alert.

QuoteBy definition a "first responder" is someone who gets the call first

By YOUR definition.  The actual definition is:

QuoteThe term "first responder" refers to those individuals who in the early stages of an incident are responsible for the protection and preservation of life, property, evidence, and the environment, including emergency response providers as defined in section 2 of the Homeland Security Act of 2002 (6 U.S.C. 101), as well as emergency management, public health, clinical care, public works, and other skilled support personnel (such as equipment operators) that provide immediate support services during prevention, response, and recovery operations."  (HSPD-8 section 2(d))

And just to be thorough here's the pertinent bit of the aforementioned HSA of 2002:

Quote(6) The term ''emergency response providers'' includes Federal, State, and local emergency public safety, law enforcement, emergency response, emergency medical (including hospital
emergency facilities), and related personnel, agencies, and authorities.

Emphasis above is my own for purposes of clarity.



But whatever....you're entitled to your opinion even if almost every other definition, including the legal definition of first responders in most cases, includes those groups.  It's just like how I don't really consider myself a veteran since I was never in harm's way (which is a personal opinion since it's not even a standard that I apply to anyone else) and got slammed for stating that on here.   You're entitled to believe whatever you want but that doesn't make you correct or free from having the disparity between the commonly accepted definition and the one you use.  Props for sticking to an unpopular opinion though!  :clap:

I will point out that in many cases of missing aircraft or people, the first people on the scene (or overhead) will be a CAP crew.  So....it doesn't matter if the local yokel volunteer fire department and sheriff's office gets the call first, they aren't the first there.   In the case of a serious HAZMAT incident, chances are good that those "first responders by Kwe1009's definition" may well get the call first but they are staging a mile or more with their backs to the wind waiting on the glow worms (techs from the local HazMat team) to show up and actually do something useful.  The locals might have responded first, but unless they are violating the basic safety rules and common sense, they aren't the first to actually get into the scene.

That's said as someone who has met your definition of first responder via several other means.  All these petty distinctions only seek to drive a wedge between what needs to be a cohesive and at least somewhat unified team. 

We're all on the same team ... right? Sometimes, I wonder.

Friends, there is a discount out there for CAP members. If you want it, take advantage it...if you don't feel comfortable taking it, don't take it. If you think of CAP as a "first responder" agency, then fine. If you don't, then fine. Does it change the essentials of what you do and how you do it? Does how someone else thinks on this forum change what you do and how you do it in CAP.

We're all going to have different perspectives and opinions on things-arguing about it rarely changes anyone's mind and just motivates people to dig in deeper to their own positions. If someone feels differently than you do, thank him or her for sharing her opinion and we can move on and solve the bigger problems of the world like the transition to the ABU....

Okay, I've said my peace.

Quote
...like the transition to the ABU....

About time this thread became an uniform thread!