18-21 year old cadets

Started by BillB, December 30, 2010, 01:12:53 PM

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flyboy53

#20
You know, the one thing this is missing from this string is the critical requirement that most cadets are striving for when they chose to stay in the program -- to get their Mitchells or higher, for what ever reason.

What if this program were designed so that the member could achieve a Mitchell-like or Air Force-recognized Certificate of Proficiency with the same benefits of the Mitchell Award? What if these individuals could continue to participate in the program like an 18-21-year-old cadet-- the full thing -- PT, special activities, training, ES, et all? You would end up with a more proficient senior member at a junior rank.

Wouldn't it be cool if an encampment had an officer trainee flight. How about a flight of them at special activities? Imagine the competition between OTs and Cadets?

I could really embrase this program if all that were possible. Imagine the possibilities.

JohnKachenmeister

I see your points, although I don't see the utility of getting awards beyond the Mitchell as a college student.  The Mitchell gets you advanced enlisted rank in the USAF, and higher awards might get you some positive points at the Air Force Academy, but If you don't get these higher awards until you are in your second year of college, what's the point?  You are not going to the Academy.  I don't think there is any ROTC benefit in getting these upper-level awards.

It just seems that hanging on to cadet membership as an adult is the CAP equivalent of living in your parents' basement into your 20's still spending several hours a day eating pizza and playing "Grand Theft Auto."

And, if you are a college student in ROTC, the activities as an ROTC cadet are way better than any NCSA's that CAP can offer.  Our lawyers scrub our NCSA's to make sure that there is no actual fun things to do, but in ROTC, you can actually go to jump school, survival school, and cool stuff that will actually enhance your AF career.
Another former CAP officer

RiverAux

Besides once you are in college the chances that you are going to go into the military as an enlisted person are probably pretty small so the military "credit" for the Mitchell or any other training program that we come up with wouldn't mean much. 

JohnKachenmeister

Well, not so much.

Scholarships dry up, money runs short, personal situations change over 4 (or in my case, 5) years.  There are quite a few folks who enlist with a year or two of college.  Not enough to qualify as an officer.  Some services, like the Army, give E-2 or E-3 if you have some college, or at least they used to.  I don't know about the AF. 

Going to college with the Mitchell would insure E-3 if the person ultimately decided to enlist.  Otherwise, I think they waive the 1st year of ROTC, but again, I'm not sure, since I'm an Army OCS grad.
Another former CAP officer

Eclipse

Part of the point of older cadets is the acceptance of responsibility for those coming next.

This is something sorely lacking in the entire program in these days of "get mine and out".

Cadets come in as younglings and after achieving their own goals, are supposed to pay back the system by being mentors
and examples for the next generation.

Also by design, older cadets should be staffing the larger activities and other high-level functions, but because we don't stress
this from day-1, this isn't even on most cadet's radar.

"That Others May Zoom"

JohnKachenmeister

That's exactly my point.

But cadets over 18 are in a no-man's land world.

The have to take CPPT, but they have NO actual responsibility.

We still have to have 2 SM's on any overnight activity, one SM and an 18+ cadet don't work.

They can FLY on missions, but can't DRIVE on missions.

Cadets completing high school and serving as SM junior-officer role models would be way more useful than keeping them cadets. 

As far as the "Get mine and get out" argument, it seems that ALL of the arguments FOR keeping the 18+ crowd cadets centers on personal awards and achievements... NCSA, the Spaatz, flight training.  I don't think anybody has pointed out an advantage to CAP or the Air Force in keeping post-high school cadets in the cadert ranks.
Another former CAP officer

Ned

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 31, 2010, 01:44:30 PM
I see your points, although I don't see the utility of getting awards beyond the Mitchell as a college student.  The Mitchell gets you advanced enlisted rank in the USAF, and higher awards might get you some positive points at the Air Force Academy, but If you don't get these higher awards until you are in your second year of college, what's the point?  You are not going to the Academy.  I don't think there is any ROTC benefit in getting these upper-level awards.

Well, the Army folks were kind enough to waive the first two years of ROTC based on my Spaatz, but I don't think that is written down anywhere.

FWIW, CAP gives varying amounts of advanced placement in our vitally-important senior program based on the awards, don't we?

But to me at least, the pieces of paper on the wall are less important than the knowledge gained while going through the program.  Kinda like college, the diploma is not the point; it is the knowledge gained while going to school.  And we have a lot to teach our post-Mitchell cadets.  Really, really.

QuoteIt just seems that hanging on to cadet membership as an adult is the CAP equivalent of living in your parents' basement into your 20's still spending several hours a day eating pizza and playing "Grand Theft Auto."

If that really is your honest opinion, then you really need to engage more in our terrific cadet program beyond providing some much-appreciated o-rides.

I'll bet you are one of the first to rise in outrage when some uniformed AOPA member opines that "CAP is a bunch of overweight hangar-flyers swapping stories about 'back in the day' while waiting to fly at taxpayer expense."

From my perspective, both positions are hurtful and not based in fact.

QuoteAnd, if you are a college student in ROTC, the activities as an ROTC cadet are way better than any NCSA's that CAP can offer.  Our lawyers scrub our NCSA's to make sure that there is no actual fun things to do, but in ROTC, you can actually go to jump school, survival school, and cool stuff that will actually enhance your AF career.

How odd.  Just last month I was in the office of the AFROTC commander at Maxwell.  He told me that due to budget constraints, AFROTC has cut back essentially all of their summer activities and schools beyond the required field training and some language schools.  Our meeting was to discuss ways that CAP can include ROTC cadets in our summer encampments and NCSAs.

Thank goodness that in CAP cadets can still go to PJOC, flight academies, and Red Horse orientation that can actually enhance future AF careers.  8)

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 31, 2010, 04:54:08 PM
But cadets over 18 are in a no-man's land world.

The have to take CPPT, but they have NO actual responsibility.

We still have to have 2 SM's on any overnight activity, one SM and an 18+ cadet don't work.

They can FLY on missions, but can't DRIVE on missions.

You are certainly correct that we have some odd rules when it comes to the world of ES.  But that seems a lot easier to fix with some rule changes before we get to  forcibly throwing out about a thousand cadets.  Talk about babies and bathwater . . . .

And you are also correct that cadets are treated as cadets.  Who - be definition - are military students.   And students generally don't supervise other students regardless of age. 

18-year old adult high school students don't supervise minor students on field trips. Nor do they drive the bus.  Because they are students.

When I was a 27 year old Army ROTC cadet, I still couldn't drive the van or act as the supervisor at overnight trainings.  But oddly enough, the E-6 supply sergeant could do both of  those things.  Because I was a student, and she wasn't.

I understand that junior residents do not get to perfrom complex surgeries on their own.  Despite having an MD degree and a license.  Even if they are 35 years old.  Because they are students.

My daughter is a 23 year-old deputy sheriff, a duly sworn peace officer.  But she is not allowed to drive the patrol unit alone, because she is still in "student status" until she completes the FTO program.

Do I need to go on?

QuoteAs far as the "Get mine and get out" argument, it seems that ALL of the arguments FOR keeping the 18+ crowd cadets centers on personal awards and achievements... NCSA, the Spaatz, flight training.  I don't think anybody has pointed out an advantage to CAP or the Air Force in keeping post-high school cadets in the cadert ranks.

I dunno.  What is the advantage to Harvard to having a lot of students?  I suppose they get some work out of them as lab assistants and TAs.  But I'll bet Harvard understands that the whole point of Harvard is to benefit the students; not the other way around.

Kinda like CAP, wouldn't you agree?


JohnKachenmeister

Ned:

I am not passionate on this issue.  I see both sides of the coin, and I am not ready to join the torches-and-pitchforks crowd to get rid of the post-high school cadets.  I DO, however, think there are some cogent arguments that favor a close re-look at them.

There are several, I think 4 or 5, 18+ cadets in our entire group.  Yes, they are sharp.  When they are there.  College and part-time employment keep them way busier than left-wing indoctrination in high school.  Once out of HS, they become ghosts.  This is NOT their fault, just a fact.

Also, I didn't suggest throwing them out.  I suggested transitioning them to F/O status once the HS diploma is in hand.  Please note that that might be at age 19.  Bill B. suggested a radical idea... transition them to F/O status with HS diploma and a Mitchell, but allow them to continue to work on advanced cadet achievements as a flight officer. 

I know you said on an another thread that there are no plans and no support for these ideas.  I hasten to point out that in 1900 there were no plans and no support for marrying an internal cumbustion engine to a glider, either.   
Another former CAP officer

manfredvonrichthofen

I could see putting a few more things into the cadet program.Can be requirements or not, but add some WO grades into the mix. I realize that there used to be one WO grade before C/2LT back in the day. What if we were to add a couple of WO grades into the mix for those cadets 19 and over to start transition into SM status, sort of a liaison between cadets and SM's. An area of cross over. A spot where cadets will still have the connection to the rest of the cadets while learning the roles of the SM as he/she applies to the CP. Learning to distance themselves from the cadets as they transition. An area of greater responsibility for those who are ready for it. A written exam and review board would be required to ensure that the cadet is ready for these responsibilities.

FW

We had such a transitioning program a while back (the "STP" program).  For some reason, it didn't work out well.  Cadets motivated to progress to the Spaatz like the status they are in.   And, for the most part, don't seem to have issues with "over regulation". 

I agree with Ned.  Why would age be a factor in a Cadet's progression?  We are in the business of developing our cadets to be fully able to deal with the world and, if a cadet upon reaching 18 wants to stay, they should.
 

JohnKachenmeister

I think Ned's analogy with medical interns is applicable.  Up through Mitchell and HS graduation could be considered "Medical School," after which the cadet becomes an SM officer but is expected to serve as an "Intern."  He would be granted the privileges and responsibilities of an officer, and held to the expectations of an officer, but still allowed to strive for cadet awards, do staff studies, PT, and all the things that go along with the upper level cadet awards.  He could then be used as a junior officer with regard to things like cadet supervision, mission participation, and stuff.

Managed properly, lieutenants and captains who came up through this program would serve as mentors, and in the end I think we would end up with a much more professional officer corps.
Another former CAP officer

spacecommand

Quote from: Slim on December 31, 2010, 04:59:26 AM

Not necessarily.  I believe IACE requires major before a senior member is eligible for selection as an escort. 

Grade does not matter for IACE escorts.

IACE requires:
Escort Ambassadors Requirements
1.  At least 25 years
2.  Have earned at least a senior rating in the Cadet Programs Specialty Track
3.  Have not attended IACE as an escort or cadet in the previous five years
4.  Hold, or be eligible to apply for, a US Passport*
5.  Be able to undertake all of the activities of a cadet ambassador

IACE is an exception to the rule as you do get to engage in the activities sometimes.  Generally in most other normal NCSA's, Senior Member escorts are just that, escorts. 

A.Member

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 30, 2010, 08:28:30 PM
CAP has very little to offer the post-high school cadet.  And since the cadet oath is to "Prepare to be of service..." I gotta ask, how much preparation do you need?

If you are out of HS and in college, ROTC is where you ought to be.

If you are out of high school and not in college, the military is where you ought to be.

If you are not eligible to join the military, or you think that you are too important and precious to risk in combat, then you should come to the SM side of CAP and serve as an officer.  Warrant Officer, Flight Officer, max nix, but you are too old to play with the children.

If you don't want to be an officer, then we can part friends, and CAP can be a part of your life as a fond memory.  Catch you at the reunions.

As I said on the other thread, when one chapter ends, a new chapter begins.  Don't fear the turning of the page.
While I may not agree with you choice of words, I do agree with your general point/view.
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

RobertAmphibian

Disclaimer:I'm a 17 year old Phase IV cadet.

18+ cadets are rare, but some of my greatest mentors in the program. I can think of a few off of the top of my head. Several are not planning on going into the military and are several are in ROTC programs.
From what I've seen, an older cadet who is active at the squadron level is pretty rare. However, having them as a resource when planning activities, especially encampments, is  fantastic. CAP has an extremely high turnover rate as is. Having older cadets around helps to create and maintain continuity within the program.

Aside from providing extra years of knowledge, I can say that knowing and working with older cadets has helped to develop my own leadership style. Most of them are not living completely as adults, but they have life experiences that have helped me in a few tricky leadership situations.

Ron1319

Quote from: RobertAmphibian on January 03, 2011, 01:47:17 PM
Disclaimer:I'm a 17 year old Phase IV cadet.

18+ cadets are rare, but some of my greatest mentors in the program. I can think of a few off of the top of my head. Several are not planning on going into the military and are several are in ROTC programs.
From what I've seen, an older cadet who is active at the squadron level is pretty rare. However, having them as a resource when planning activities, especially encampments, is  fantastic. CAP has an extremely high turnover rate as is. Having older cadets around helps to create and maintain continuity within the program.

Aside from providing extra years of knowledge, I can say that knowing and working with older cadets has helped to develop my own leadership style. Most of them are not living completely as adults, but they have life experiences that have helped me in a few tricky leadership situations.

So are you going to stick with CAP as a c/Col until you're 21?  Being a 17 year old Phase IV cadet is not a disclaimer, it's something to be proud of and is more like a proclaimer than a disclaimer, if the word exists and means what I would like for it to mean.  It makes your opinion much more valid.  You should fill out your profile so we can see where you're from.  It gives more context.  Please, set the example so that the next group of cadets knows that you can be a cadet until you're 21 and how valuable that is. 

I had to go back and look at an old drill team photo to see who stayed a cadet until 21 and I'd say about half of us stayed in and gave back.  At least a couple enlisted and couldn't.  The only way for it to culturally change is if key cadets your age decide to help make the change by doing it, living it and encouraging others to do the same.
Ronald Thompson, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander, Squadron 85, Placerville, CA
PCR-CA-273
Spaatz #1319

RobertAmphibian

Mostly for privacy reasons, I'll just add my region for now. If anyone has any specific questions about my personal CAP experiences, feel free to direct them to me in PM.

If I don't receive an appointment to a service academy, I'll hopefully be able to stay active as a cadet until 21. I know a good number of cadets who have managed to balance college course loads (sometimes with ROTC) through their older years. All of the encampments I have been to have had 18+ cadet commanders. Not to say being older is always better or in any way a requirement, just that older cadets have managed to do some great things for the program.

Again, 18+ cadets have made a tremendous difference in the cadet and person I am today. I feel like I'm able to interact and work with a much wider range of people.

Ron1319

From what I've seen recently and experienced myself, college course loads even in very rigorous programs are less time consuming than most high school programs.  I went to engineering school and I am sure that I was spending less hours per week on the engineering program most weeks than I was on garbage high school homework.  If you're going to work 20 hours a week on top of that, or of course if you're going to an academy, then that changes significantly.
Ronald Thompson, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander, Squadron 85, Placerville, CA
PCR-CA-273
Spaatz #1319