C/AB Uniforms

Started by davidsinn, August 04, 2009, 04:38:38 PM

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lordmonar

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 04, 2009, 07:06:03 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on August 04, 2009, 05:08:05 PMOh and we let them wear the inexpensive black "t" they can get at Walmart.

I'm glad someone else focuses on the actual pub instead of what they think it should be.

I'm getting pretty annoyed at how that myth of "only staff is allowed to wear black" keeps propogating. It's not in the manual, it's not a rule, and pushing it forward is continuing a lie. It doesn't benefit anyone to have only certain people wear certain T-shirt colors.

Well let's be clear here.  Commanders can dictate what T-shift you will wear.  They can say everyone is in brown, everyone is in in black, A-flight is in Brown and B-fight is in Black of they can say nothing at all.

It is perfectly acceptable....although useless IMHO...to have "staff" in black T-shifts and everyone else in Brown....It is not a "lie" but policy and  local commander has the power and resposibility to set that policy.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Eclipse

#21
Quote from: lordmonar on August 04, 2009, 08:53:51 PM
Well let's be clear here.  Commanders can dictate what T-shift you will wear.  They can say everyone is in brown, everyone is in in black, A-flight is in Brown and B-fight is in Black of they can say nothing at all.

It is perfectly acceptable....although useless IMHO...to have "staff" in black T-shifts and everyone else in Brown....It is not a "lie" but policy and  local commander has the power and resposibility to set that policy.

Not quite - the only uniform combinations that can be dictated (for cadets) are those which are issued by either NHQ, the unit, or the activity.

If the unit issues brown shirts and dictates their wear, no problem.  If they don't, and the cadet shows up with black, they have no leg to stand on.

"That Others May Zoom"

DC

Quote from: C/Command125 on August 04, 2009, 08:43:17 PM
At my squadron, we have them wear a white t-shirt and nice blue jeans with tennis shoes until they get a uniform. It is usually not a problem for them to get their uniform before they promote. Also the male hair need to be in in regs and we prefer the females to at least have their hair up.
One of the requirements to promote to C/Amn is to be able to satisfactorily wear a uniform. You can't do that if you don't have one, ergo, everyone should have a complete uniform prior to promoting...

NC Hokie

Quote from: Eclipse on August 05, 2009, 02:29:18 AM
Not quite - the only uniform combinations that can be dictated (for cadets) are those which are issued by either NHQ, the unit, or the activity.

I'm not knocking you or anything but I'd really like to see a regulation that supports this assertion.  Here's why...

NHQ requires proper wear of a CAP uniform to complete any achievement in the cadet program (CAPR 52-16 paragraph 2-4f).  They supply the FCU, but the FCU as issued does not come with accouterments or shoes (not to mention a service coat or outerwear). Since the uniform must be complete in order to be worn properly, someone else has to supply these items.  See the problem?
NC Hokie, Lt Col, CAP

Graduated Squadron Commander
All Around Good Guy

CAPC/officer125

Quote from: DC on August 05, 2009, 03:42:54 AM
Quote from: C/Command125 on August 04, 2009, 08:43:17 PM
At my squadron, we have them wear a white t-shirt and nice blue jeans with tennis shoes until they get a uniform. It is usually not a problem for them to get their uniform before they promote. Also the male hair need to be in in regs and we prefer the females to at least have their hair up.
One of the requirements to promote to C/Amn is to be able to satisfactorily wear a uniform. You can't do that if you don't have one, ergo, everyone should have a complete uniform prior to promoting...
Yes, but at my squadron we either get them their uniform within a couple of weeks of joining or they take long enough to get their Curry, that we don't worry about them not being in uniform IAW regs come promotion time.
C/LtCol Priscilla (Pat) Temaat
Eaker #2228
Earhart #14523
KS-001- KSWG HQ staff
2012 Joint Dakota Cadet Leadership Encampment Cadet Commander

DC

Quote from: C/Command125 on August 05, 2009, 05:03:17 AM
Quote from: DC on August 05, 2009, 03:42:54 AM
Quote from: C/Command125 on August 04, 2009, 08:43:17 PM
At my squadron, we have them wear a white t-shirt and nice blue jeans with tennis shoes until they get a uniform. It is usually not a problem for them to get their uniform before they promote. Also the male hair need to be in in regs and we prefer the females to at least have their hair up.
One of the requirements to promote to C/Amn is to be able to satisfactorily wear a uniform. You can't do that if you don't have one, ergo, everyone should have a complete uniform prior to promoting...
Yes, but at my squadron we either get them their uniform within a couple of weeks of joining or they take long enough to get their Curry, that we don't worry about them not being in uniform IAW regs come promotion time.
You might want to think about your post, specifically the part I put in bold and underlined. Regulations are not something to be ignored when they simply become inconvienient.

With that, I rest my case.

Eclipse

#26
Quote from: NC Hokie on August 05, 2009, 04:45:41 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 05, 2009, 02:29:18 AM
Not quite - the only uniform combinations that can be dictated (for cadets) are those which are issued by either NHQ, the unit, or the activity.

I'm not knocking you or anything but I'd really like to see a regulation that supports this assertion.  Here's why...

NHQ requires proper wear of a CAP uniform to complete any achievement in the cadet program (CAPR 52-16 paragraph 2-4f).  They supply the FCU, but the FCU as issued does not come with accouterments or shoes (not to mention a service coat or outerwear). Since the uniform must be complete in order to be worn properly, someone else has to supply these items.  See the problem?

Quote from: CAPR 39-1, Page 8
1-5. Uniform Combinations. Various combinations of CAP uniforms are authorized in order to allow
for various climatic conditions, availability of uniforms, etc., but no member is obligated to equip
himself/herself with all or even a major part of the combinations described in this publication. Members
will equip themselves with the basic uniform. The minimum basic uniforms for male and female cadets
and senior members, which will satisfy most occasions, are listed below. Members may obtain and wear
the additional uniform items authorized in this publication on an optional basis. Uniform clothing may
be altered to improve fit. However, alterations must not change the intended appearance of garment as
designed. It is the member's personal responsibility to equip himself/herself with a proper uniform.
Commanders may assist if they have the capability, through use of unit funds and/or donations or by
acquiring surplus uniforms. Cadets are required to have the minimum basic uniform. A commander
may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary or if the
uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet.
The omission of a specific item or appearance standard does not automatically permit its wear.

Quote from: CAPR 39-1, Page 8
a. Minimum Basic Service Uniform. Male: Short-sleeve, light blue shirt; dark blue trousers; blue
belt/silver buckle, blue flight cap; black shoes, and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch,
collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem. Female: Short-sleeve light
blue blouse; Dark blue skirt or slacks; flight cap; neutral nylon hose; black shoes; black handbag.
Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch, collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight
cap emblem.

The regulation is specific that a member must have the MBSU, for cadets that's short-sleeved blues, so per regulation, they must complete the outfit in whatever way they can, generally at the cadet's expense.

Beyond the MBSU, a unit or activity CC cannot mandate any other uniform parts or combos unless they supply the item or the expense is voluntary.  This comes up all the time in relation to encampments and similar - someone is always saying we can't mandate BDU's for economically challenged cadets who can't afford them.

They are correct and we do anyway.  In 6 years as an encampment commander, no one has challenged me on this, but if they did, I'd have no alternative but to allow the cadet to participate in the full activity in service dress.  That's what the regs says.

"That Others May Zoom"

Daniel

#27
We make our cadets button the top button and wear their tie with it! -Kidding of course

My squadron commander is REALLY big on Uniform wear

Couldnt this be considered hazing,

as your "picking" on a ranking
C/Capt Daniel L, CAP
Wright Brothers No. 12670
Mitchell No. 59781
Earhart No. 15416

SarDragon

Quote from: DC on August 05, 2009, 05:08:51 AM
Quote from: C/Command125 on August 05, 2009, 05:03:17 AM
Quote from: DC on August 05, 2009, 03:42:54 AM
Quote from: C/Command125 on August 04, 2009, 08:43:17 PM
At my squadron, we have them wear a white t-shirt and nice blue jeans with tennis shoes until they get a uniform. It is usually not a problem for them to get their uniform before they promote. Also the male hair need to be in in regs and we prefer the females to at least have their hair up.
One of the requirements to promote to C/Amn is to be able to satisfactorily wear a uniform. You can't do that if you don't have one, ergo, everyone should have a complete uniform prior to promoting...
Yes, but at my squadron we either get them their uniform within a couple of weeks of joining or they take long enough to get their Curry, that we don't worry about them not being in uniform IAW regs come promotion time.
You might want to think about your post, specifically the part I put in bold and underlined. Regulations are not something to be ignored when they simply become inconvienient.

With that, I rest my case.

I think you misinterpreted. I had to read it twice before I figured out what was intended. To rephrase, they don't have to worry about a new cadet being out of uniform because they are pretty much assured of having a complete uniform come promotion time.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

SarDragon

#29
Quote from: Daniel L on August 05, 2009, 05:14:19 AM
We make our cadets button the top button and wear their tie with it! -Kidding of course

My squadron commander is REALLY big on Uniform wear

Couldnt this be considered hazing,

as your "picking" on a ranking

Huh?

We're having a general discussion of uniform practices, correct or otherwise, and have made no specific accusations about any person by name. I think you need to reread the definition of hazing, and absorb it a little better. I think it would be pretty difficult to haze someone on an internet forum.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

davidsinn

Quote from: SarDragon on August 05, 2009, 07:07:19 AM
Quote from: Daniel L on August 05, 2009, 05:14:19 AM
We make our cadets button the top button and wear their tie with it! -Kidding of course

My squadron commander is REALLY big on Uniform wear

Couldnt this be considered hazing,

as your "picking" on a ranking

Huh?

We're having a general discussion of uniform practices, correct or otherwise, and have made no specific accusations about any person by name. I think you need to reread the definition of hazing, and absorb it a little better. I think it would be pretty difficult to haze someone on an internet forum.

I think Cadet Lewis is going clear back to my OP which puts C/AB in a unique uniform from the rest of the cadets. I do not agree that it's hazing but I can see where he gets the idea from.
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn

jimmydeanno

Quote from: SarDragon on August 05, 2009, 07:07:19 AM
I think it would be pretty difficult to haze someone on an internet forum.

I think it would be pretty easy, really. 

QuoteHazing. Hazing is defined as any conduct whereby someone causes another to suffer or to be exposed to any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful.

It really isn't that difficult to do something that would qualify over the internet.
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

NC Hokie

Quote from: Eclipse on August 05, 2009, 05:12:06 AM

Quote from: CAPR 39-1, Page 8
1-5. Uniform Combinations. Various combinations of CAP uniforms are authorized in order to allow
for various climatic conditions, availability of uniforms, etc., but no member is obligated to equip
himself/herself with all or even a major part of the combinations described in this publication. Members
will equip themselves with the basic uniform. The minimum basic uniforms for male and female cadets
and senior members, which will satisfy most occasions, are listed below. Members may obtain and wear
the additional uniform items authorized in this publication on an optional basis. Uniform clothing may
be altered to improve fit. However, alterations must not change the intended appearance of garment as
designed. It is the member's personal responsibility to equip himself/herself with a proper uniform.
Commanders may assist if they have the capability, through use of unit funds and/or donations or by
acquiring surplus uniforms. Cadets are required to have the minimum basic uniform. A commander
may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary or if the
uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet.
The omission of a specific item or appearance
standard does not automatically permit its wear.

Thanks for the citation.  That has to be one of the most poorly written jumble of words I've ever seen, which explains why I never "saw" the interpretation you and others have seen.  For example, the first two sentences are mutually exclusive in that the first claims no obligation for members to equip themselves with any uniform while the second dictates that all must have a basic uniform.  Ambiguous much?

The highlighted line is just as bad.  How is a commander supposed to require cadets to wear an optional uniform item if the purchase of that item is voluntary?  Logic says that the commander can't, but the regulation says that he can!

The rewrite of 39-1 can't get here too soon!
NC Hokie, Lt Col, CAP

Graduated Squadron Commander
All Around Good Guy

Eclipse

Quote from: NC Hokie on August 05, 2009, 02:12:11 PM
Thanks for the citation.  That has to be one of the most poorly written jumble of words I've ever seen, which explains why I never "saw" the interpretation you and others have seen.  For example, the first two sentences are mutually exclusive in that the first claims no obligation for members to equip themselves with any uniform while the second dictates that all must have a basic uniform.  Ambiguous much?

The highlighted line is just as bad.  How is a commander supposed to require cadets to wear an optional uniform item if the purchase of that item is voluntary?  Logic says that the commander can't, but the regulation says that he can!

The rewrite of 39-1 can't get here too soon!

I have to honest, I've never found that to be ambiguous or conflicted.  It says what its says, some people just don't like that or read something different into the text.

(It also says that for seniors, Aviator Whites or blues are required as their MBSU, but few have ever read that, let alone pay any attention.)

"That Others May Zoom"

BillB

What would happen if a cadet showed up for an encampment with onlyblues? Since you can't require a cadet to purchase BDUs, what would happen?
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

Eclipse

Quote from: BillB on August 05, 2009, 03:15:22 PM
What would happen if a cadet showed up for an encampment with onlyblues? Since you can't require a cadet to purchase BDUs, what would happen?

They'd be allowed to complete the activity, and have to spend time learning how to care for their uniform themselves.  For activities which might ruin the service dress, you can always scrounge up extra uniform parts from other people's gear.

Afterwards there would be very "direct" conversations with that cadet's unit CC, as when they sign the 31 they are indicating that the cadet is full capable of participating in that activity, and allowing them to show with just service dress shows a lack of attention to detail, or a lack of compassion for that cadet.

Neither is acceptable in a unit CC.  I've had plenty of situations where I was photo-shopping name tapes and name tags for cadets with a "wet" Curry, that's understandable, but to allow a cadet to come unprepared for an activity which has a clear packing list is unacceptable.

There's a lot of different ways a situation like that can be handled in advance - the options are more limited day-of.

"That Others May Zoom"

NC Hokie

Quote from: Eclipse on August 05, 2009, 02:29:46 PM
I have to honest, I've never found that to be ambiguous or conflicted.  It says what its says, some people just don't like that or read something different into the text.

It says what it says quite poorly.  I get the meaning but the wording is confusing and ambiguous.  Regulations need to be clear, concise, and free of any ambiguity so that there is only one possible interpretation.  Anything else leads to chaos.

Quote from: Eclipse on August 05, 2009, 03:36:16 PM
Quote from: BillB on August 05, 2009, 03:15:22 PM
What would happen if a cadet showed up for an encampment with onlyblues? Since you can't require a cadet to purchase BDUs, what would happen?

They'd be allowed to complete the activity, and have to spend time learning how to care for their uniform themselves.  For activities which might ruin the service dress, you can always scrounge up extra uniform parts from other people's gear.

Afterwards there would be very "direct" conversations with that cadet's unit CC, as when they sign the 31 they are indicating that the cadet is full capable of participating in that activity, and allowing them to show with just service dress shows a lack of attention to detail, or a lack of compassion for that cadet.

Neither is acceptable in a unit CC.  I've had plenty of situations where I was photo-shopping name tapes and name tags for cadets with a "wet" Curry, that's understandable, but to allow a cadet to come unprepared for an activity which has a clear packing list is unacceptable.

There's a lot of different ways a situation like that can be handled in advance - the options are more limited day-of.

Who's responsible for making sure that the cadet has the uniform specified in the activity packing list?
NC Hokie, Lt Col, CAP

Graduated Squadron Commander
All Around Good Guy

davidsinn

#37
Quote from: NC Hokie on August 05, 2009, 03:55:59 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 05, 2009, 03:36:16 PM

They'd be allowed to complete the activity, and have to spend time learning how to care for their uniform themselves.  For activities which might ruin the service dress, you can always scrounge up extra uniform parts from other people's gear.

Afterwards there would be very "direct" conversations with that cadet's unit CC, as when they sign the 31 they are indicating that the cadet is full capable of participating in that activity, and allowing them to show with just service dress shows a lack of attention to detail, or a lack of compassion for that cadet.

Neither is acceptable in a unit CC.  I've had plenty of situations where I was photo-shopping name tapes and name tags for cadets with a "wet" Curry, that's understandable, but to allow a cadet to come unprepared for an activity which has a clear packing list is unacceptable.

There's a lot of different ways a situation like that can be handled in advance - the options are more limited day-of.

Who's responsible for making sure that the cadet has the uniform specified in the activity packing list?

First the cadet themselves, second the unit commander shouldn't send a cadet to encampment that is not prepared.
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn

Eclipse

Quote from: davidsinn on August 05, 2009, 04:03:21 PM
Quote from: NC Hokie on August 05, 2009, 03:55:59 PM
Who's responsible for making sure that the cadet has the uniform specified in the activity packing list?

First the cadet themselves, second the unit commander shouldn't send a cadet to encampment that is not prepared.

Yep - that's why we require CC approval.  You have no idea how many CC's feel its "not their problem".

"That Others May Zoom"

Hawk200

Quote from: lordmonar on August 04, 2009, 08:53:51 PMWell let's be clear here.  Commanders can dictate what T-shift you will wear.  They can say everyone is in brown, everyone is in in black, A-flight is in Brown and B-fight is in Black of they can say nothing at all.

OK, now keep that in mind.

Quote from: lordmonar on August 04, 2009, 08:53:51 PMIt is not a "lie" but policy and  local commander has the power and resposibility to set that policy.

The stipulation that only "staff" (a definition which also seems a little loose) may wear black T-shirts is not documented. It is not in a policy letter. It is not in a supplement. It is not in any known publication. It's not even written down on a restaurant napkin or an old gumwrapper.

If a policy is pushed that has no legitimate confirming documentation, it is indeed a lie. One that needs to be dealt with.