Hazing

[flyguy06]

On the other board about the Grog and hazing got me to thinking about hazing as a whole and I wanted to get youguys comments.

I personally think CAP has gone way too far with the hazing policies.

Here is a very radical question. What was ecer wrong with making cadets do push ups? I think the problem was older cadets taking it out of hand or not being taught the correct way to administer punishment.

I mean think about it. If given a choice which would you prefer if you mess up? You can either do 20 push ups and the issue be done with or you canget written up and have the incident in your permanant record. Personally I would rather do the push ups and be done with it.

Just because you yell at a cadet or senior or make them do pushups doesne mean you have something personal against them.  I and many of my friends joined CAP as cadets because we wanted that hard nosed dicsipline. We wanted somebody up in our face giving us direction. We wanted to get ready for the military. Is this the wrong attitude to have?

I dont think there was anything wrong with push ups if administered properly.I dontthink there is anything wrong with yelling if administered properly. The problem is we as Senior Member cadet leaders have failed in directing our senior cadet staff. We just give them the ball and let them run with it without giving them guidence.

[CASH172]

You really said it yourself as to why we don't allow dropping cadets, cadet staff do not have training to do so.  Military instructors do their jobs as their jobs and do it almost everyday.  Most of our cadets will do their encampment-style job once a year and they don't get anywhere near the same kind of training that military instructors do. 

Also, CAP is not an organization dedicated to prepare teenagers for the military.  The Cadet Program does have a military component to it, but it is not the sole purpose of the CP. 

[RiverAux]

Outside of boot camp, who in the AF is getting dropped for push ups for minor infractions on a regular basis?  Why would it be useful to our cadets on a regular basis then?  I can perhaps seeing it be used at encampments where you are talking about a short-term very military oriented experience where there is a lot of senior member supervision going on.  Even then I probably would only want fairly experienced cadets to be given authorization to do it and only under very limited and strictly prescribed circumstances.

[flyguy06]

You really said it yourself as to why we don't allow dropping cadets, cadet staff do not have training to do so.  Military instructors do their jobs as their jobs and do it almost everyday.  Most of our cadets will do their encampment-style job once a year and they don't get anywhere near the same kind of training that military instructors do. 

Also, CAP is not an organization dedicated to prepare teenagers for the military.  The Cadet Program does have a military component to it, but it is not the sole purpose of the CP. 

I hear what you're saying, but doing push ups really has little to do with preparing someone for the military.  I live in the inner city of Atlanta. there is a provate christian school for boys where the Headmaster makes them drill, do push ups, come to attention for teachers. Its not about preparing teenagers to fight wars. Its about teaching teenagers respect for adults, attention to details, and pride in oneself.

[flyguy06]

Outside of boot camp, who in the AF is getting dropped for push ups for minor infractions on a regular basis?  Why would it be useful to our cadets on a regular basis then?  I can perhaps seeing it be used at encampments where you are talking about a short-term very military oriented experience where there is a lot of senior member supervision going on.  Even then I probably would only want fairly experienced cadets to be given authorization to do it and only under very limited and strictly prescribed circumstances.

Because the definition of a cadet is an officer in "training" All cadets from Spaatz on down to airmen are in "training? thats another issue I dont think a lot of Senior Members get. A C/COl is just a cadet just like a C/amn. I see them all the same. My job as DCC is to train them to be leaders. Many Seniors will let C/officers run the show. I give them guidence, direction, and motivation and evaluate "how" they are running the show and correct as they go along. I dont just leave it totally up to the cadet.

When I was in college ROTC, O was 19-21. We had leadership roles and responsibilities, but we also had a active duty captain who mentored us because we didnt know it all. SO if I as a 20 year old cadet needed mentoring wouldnt a 16 year old cadet need even more?

[flyguy06]

Folks, let me ask you to ponder a question.

Why do you think Drill Sergeants yell and scream and make recruits do push ups? I bet most of you dot know. It not to show them who is baddest. Its not about exerting your rank or authority. thats the furthest reason.

In these types of situations, we are dealing with people. And people are differnt. they come from differnat backgrounds, differant cultures, differant experiences.
You have folks from very affluent lifestyles.You have folks from humble lifestyles, males, females, blacks, whites, hispnaics,

A Drill Sergenats job is to take all these diverse groups of people and make them into a team. wheather that be a fighting team or a team of Admin clerks doesnt matter. The point is they build them into a team by treaing them all the same way. The break them down to one level. So the guy who is used to having everything  is no better than the guy wh o had to work for evrything in  his life. The Drill Sergeants break them down to one level and build them backup into a team.

Now CAP is similar. I quarantee the cadets I dealwith inthe city are very differant teenagers than the ones in the subards. So, in order to get both groups to work as one, I have to treat them all the same.

And guess what? All cadets dont repsond to the kindler, gentler CAP. its unfortunant but true.
Now, of course I am not suggesting treating casdets like soldiers. We are not building combat warriors here. Of course not. But what I am suggesting is not treaing them with kid gloves like I have seen nn so many squadrons

[Nathan]

I've been dropped by some unnamed officers back in my earlier days as a cadet. Although it was against the rules at the time, I really didn't mind it. I'm not some ooh-rah hardcore "runs fifteen miles a day in the snow" kind of cadet. But I did join CAP for a more military feel, and when I was dropped for push-ups, it was during my time when I was being trained. Since then, I've moved up in rank and now couldn't get dropped by many people even if the rules did allow it due to my seniority in position to most other cadets in the nation.

So, given that most cadets SHOULD theoretically be staff members by C/SSgt, then it wouldn't really be a whole lot different than the military's idea of training. Granted, we do not have the same mission as the military, and I will be the first one to tell everyone that we are NOT the military. But being paramilitary in nature, and having a program decided to emulate the military in many ways, I honestly don't see the problem dropping cadets for push-ups during their training days, so long as it's generally as a group.

Granted, the problem has already been stated that the cadets don't have any training or ability to drop cadets with any guarentee that they won't lose their heads. However, if we were to be careful about implementing it, we could teach cadets what the proper time and method for physical discipline would be in their initial training by putting them through it, and with proper senior supervision, it could become just another tool that we use both to teach and to increase the military-like feel many cadets join CAP for in the first place.

[flyguy06]

I've been dropped by some unnamed officers back in my earlier days as a cadet. Although it was against the rules at the time, I really didn't mind it. I'm not some ooh-rah hardcore "runs fifteen miles a day in the snow" kind of cadet. But I did join CAP for a more military feel, and when I was dropped for push-ups, it was during my time when I was being trained. Since then, I've moved up in rank and now couldn't get dropped by many people even if the rules did allow it due to my seniority in position to most other cadets in the nation.

So, given that most cadets SHOULD theoretically be staff members by C/SSgt, then it wouldn't really be a whole lot different than the military's idea of training. Granted, we do not have the same mission as the military, and I will be the first one to tell everyone that we are NOT the military. But being paramilitary in nature, and having a program decided to emulate the military in many ways, I honestly don't see the problem dropping cadets for push-ups during their training days, so long as it's generally as a group.

Granted, the problem has already been stated that the cadets don't have any training or ability to drop cadets with any guarentee that they won't lose their heads. However, if we were to be careful about implementing it, we could teach cadets what the proper time and method for physical discipline would be in their initial training by putting them through it, and with proper senior supervision, it could become just another tool that we use both to teach and to increase the military-like feel many cadets join CAP for in the first place.

I agree. Also you have to seperate the cadet Program from the Senior member program. They are in effect vastly differant. The Senior member program is not military but the cadet program is by its nature a military program. D and C, wearing a military uniform, rank structure are mandatory requirements to be in the cadet program. They are not for the Senior Member program. So you see how they are different.

What I think has happpend and this is just my opinion, is Senior members have gotten so caught up in ES they have neglected the CP and basically told the cadets to run it themselves. Thats how things got out of hand.There was no real guidence from Seniors on how to lead, and discipline, All Senior Members cared about was getting ES qualified and mission GT qualified. They didnt emphasize leadership, my conduct or other things. They usually got some CAP "mom" to be the DCC and she was usually only there cause her child was there so she didnt really understand how to teach those subject and the cadets ended up running things thenselves.

We need more dedicated young Senior Members that want to work with cadets not that want to be on a Ground Team. But that actually want to prepare cadets for military leadership. and service to our nation.

[afgeo4]

Members of the military are adults. Cadets are children. Children don't know how to properly handle public embarrassment and that can cause some great harm to them. Adults generally handle such situations differently. Also... the military is a job. The member wants to be there and understands that some things will have to be sacrificed to get there. Being a cadet isn't a job. Being in CAP isn't a job. It's an adventure sans pay. If we sacrifice something for it, it is strictly because we choose to, not because our commander does.

[Nathan]

Members of the military are adults. Cadets are children. Children don't know how to properly handle public embarrassment and that can cause some great harm to them. Adults generally handle such situations differently.

There are many cadets of military age. Are you suggesting that 18 year old cadets don't know how to drop someone for pushups, but an 18 year old soldier does (assuming that there is a huge maturity difference between 16 and 18 anyway)?

[Eclipse]

Members of the military are adults. Cadets are children. Children don't know how to properly handle public embarrassment and that can cause some great harm to them. Adults generally handle such situations differently.

There are many cadets of military age. Are you suggesting that 18 year old cadets don't know how to drop someone for pushups, but an 18 year old soldier does?

Neither does and neither should - there are very few 18 year old RDC's, TI's, or DI's.

[Nathan]

Members of the military are adults. Cadets are children. Children don't know how to properly handle public embarrassment and that can cause some great harm to them. Adults generally handle such situations differently.

There are many cadets of military age. Are you suggesting that 18 year old cadets don't know how to drop someone for pushups, but an 18 year old soldier does?

Neither does and neither should - there are very few 18 year old RDC's, TI's, or DI's.

What about 20 year old? And is a 16 - 20 year old capable of being taught the proper way to use physical exercise as a learning tool?

I would venture to say so, but then again, I'm just a 19 year old.

[ZigZag911]

Anyone who can't get a cadet's undivided attention  -- or train a cadet staff member how to do so -- without resorting to illicit techniques like "drop and give me ____ # of pushups" -- needs a serious refresher in leadership methods.

[Eclipse]

What about 20 year old? And is a 16 - 20 year old capable of being taught the proper way to use physical exercise as a learning tool?

I would venture to say so, but then again, I'm just a 19 year old.

Anyone can be trained to do anything - the question being is the training coming from a competent authority or the local video store.

The majority of senior members fly by the seat of their pants and do what they think is right based on their experience as ex-military, cadets, parents, or ...none.

And since little guidance or training is provided to seniors on where the "line" is,
it is simpler and safer for everyone to simple prohibit the behavior.

[afgeo4]

Members of the military are adults. Cadets are children. Children don't know how to properly handle public embarrassment and that can cause some great harm to them. Adults generally handle such situations differently.

There are many cadets of military age. Are you suggesting that 18 year old cadets don't know how to drop someone for pushups, but an 18 year old soldier does (assuming that there is a huge maturity difference between 16 and 18 anyway)?

I'm suggesting that our program has to account for 12 year olds just as much as 18 year olds.

Just about all cadets forget that our program, although mainly filled with cadets age 15 to 18, has 12, 13, and 14 year olds in it as well. There is one program and it has to take into account everyone age 12 to 21 and what we end up with is a common denominator for all of those. What the most safe and logical method is that will work for everyone.

[flyguy06]

Members of the military are adults. Cadets are children. Children don't know how to properly handle public embarrassment and that can cause some great harm to them. Adults generally handle such situations differently. Also... the military is a job. The member wants to be there and understands that some things will have to be sacrificed to get there. Being a cadet isn't a job. Being in CAP isn't a job. It's an adventure sans pay. If we sacrifice something for it, it is strictly because we choose to, not because our commander does.

Here is the contradiction I have with that statement. I argue that "cadets" are not children. But if we use your statement and say they are children then we shouldnt let them go on Ground Teams either. But folks on this board love to argue that cadets should let on GT missions. Well, if they are mature enough to look for possoble deceased remains or if they are mature enough to fly a Cessna 172 by themselves, then they should be mature enough to handle discipline other cadets.

Thats my whole point. Cadets are not like regular teenagers their same age. They are trained to look for lost people. they are trained to rescue  people and provide first aid. They are trained to fly airplanes and react to inflight emergencies. "kids" dont do these things. cadets do. so I dont look at CAP cadets as your average teenager.

[Nathan]

All I'm saying is that if we expect a cadet to be disciplined enough to represent this nation as a professional in uniform, to be responsible for the safety and well being of other cadets, and the other "adultish" responsibilities we bestow upon cadets, then I don't see why this particular form of discipline can't be taught to them along with all of the other things we teach during leadership classes.

Physical punishment is NOT bad leadership. I don't care what all of our CAP books have to say about it; in reality, it's simply a liability issue for the program that CAP would rather not take the time to properly address. If they have cadets dishing out push-ups, they follow the slippery-slope argument into having cadets hurt themselves during insane amounts of PT because some 12 year old cadet has his shoelaces crossed left over right instead of right over left.

I've seen people say that push-ups are bad leadership, which is stupid. Push-ups don't have anything to do with the leadership; they're a punishment, and that is something that CAP is solely lacking in ability to implement. According to leadership books and the regulations, our ways of punishing cadets are pretty much mentoring or 2b. There isn't a lot of wiggle room in the middle. We are allowed to use rewards, which explains the sickening number of ribbons cadets have to wear. But the problem is not with the cadets that respond to rewards. We don't usually have a problem with those. It's the cadets who don't respond to mentoring, but aren't screwing up badly enough to be kicked or demoted.

And then I'll get this response, "Yeah, we really need to be dropping the unmotivated cadets for push-ups. That'll help."

The point is to not let them get unmotivated. The military is all about motivation during that boot camp stage (from what I understand about it). If you aren't motivated, you have to find a way to get motivated, because otherwise, it's going to be a suck few weeks.

Many cadets join for the military hooah that, shockingly, they see on television. I know I did. For me, I got it, and I was pretty happy. Having been a cadet for quite a while now, I've seen a couple of things in terms of how to handle the situation, both endorsed by CAP and not.

A) Mentoring works for a select few cadets. It works for cadets who care enough to listen to what you have to say and honestly have a desire and motivation to improve, and it works for cadets mature enough to even care that you're talking to them. For cadets like me, who was given a firm (non-parental abuselike) beating when I did something bad, I wouldn't have even realized I had done something wrong if all that happened was that I was talked to and told not to do it again at 12 years old. Maybe I was an idiot, I don't know.

B) Dropping for push-ups does not teach anything in itself, but rather is used as an effective deterrant. Nobody really ENJOYS doing push-ups. Rather, push-ups are used to show that their is consequence for doing something wrong, which mentoring doesn't as effectively convey. I'm not going to try to name a situation where PT might be effectively utilized for punishment purposes, because I know someone's going to nitpick that to death and attempt to split hairs, but I can say something along the lines of, "The cadets miss x number of points on their room inspections, and do x number of 8-count bodybuilders." The lesson? Well, think of the lesson that inspections teach. Inspections teach attention to detail, because in the real world, military or not, carelessly skipping over details can lead to bad things. The bad thing in this case is push-ups, but luckily, that's as bad as it gets.

C) Moving on from the point directly above, I find that revoking awards is even WORSE than direct punishment, a concept that I know many of the leadership officers here will gasp and cross themselves over, but there is a reason. Copying from the situation above, let's say that the cadets missed x number of points on their room inspection, so that puts them 20 points behind the next flight for honor flight. What does this accomplish? Depending on how close they are, it could motivate them to move on, but competition only works so long as the scores are actually competitive. I know at Cadet Officer School, our flight was rocking on the points towards Honor Flight until we ended up beginning falling behind for a reason I can't remember. While we were pretty content as a flight, we did lose the motivation to try anymore, because we knew there was no way to win back the glory we had. Our volleyball games became progressively less intense, our speeches became less energetic, etc. We weren't last in points, but we weren't first. The same thing happens to all cadets. If you take away things they were looking forward to, then all you have is a bunch of depressed cadets who, rather than focusing on the fun they could have been having, are instead mourning the loss of their break time because they have to clean dishes.

D) 2b. Yeah... I'm not going to delve into this, but anything that forces a cadet out of the program is not something I'm a big fan of.

As you can see, I find that having one, very temporary punishment works much more effectively than depriving someone of rewards. Let them have all the fun they want and that you can give them (keep in mind that this is mainly encampment-speak; push-ups are harder to implement outside of that enviornment). I would far much prefer to give them a little discomfort for their mistakes and get it over with than to take away something they want badly.

If you want to build motivated cadets, then make punishments swift, predictable, and brief, and once they're done, move on and let them correct the mistakes. Mentoring doesn't work for everyone, ESPECIALLY in a team setting, which is what encampment is, and taking away rewards only moves to demoralize the cadets over time and cause them to stop caring about getting better, because either you're taking away things they want and depressing them, or you're taking away things they don't want and they have no reason to change.

That's not to say that the rewards and punishment can't be used consecutively. But CAP sorely lacks a useable, short-term punishment that can be implemented, and I don't think that PT is an unviable option. It would take time and a LOT of training to implement, and I would say that only encampment settings would be appropriate for the type of intensity that using PT for punishment would entail, perhaps taught during RST (though I wouldn't be opposed to a properly-trained squadron utilizing it appropriately). But I truly do believe that the discipline of cadets would go up once they realize that there are consequences for their actions other than a talking-to.

After all, how many times are YOU allowed to screw up in your job with literally no reprecussion than someone telling you to do better next time?

[BillB]

Hazing and making a cadet drop for pushups are part of CPPT. However, CPPT doesn't apply to the large majority of cadets, in fact they are not required to take CPP training until they are 18. As often mentioned by cadets, teenagers join CAP for the military aspect not found in Scouting. I also agree that making a Cadet Airman drop and do pushups does not really have a place at Squadron meetings. But an Encampment is a different animal. There, it's very military and doing the pushups has been in the cadet program since the 1940's. On average, most cadets do not mind doing the punishment, the only ones horrified by the idea are seniors with little experience in the Cadet Program.

[Eclipse]

The prohibition against hazing and punitive physical activity applies to >ALL< members, regardless of status, age, or formal training.

For those that have not received formal training, the onus is on the adults to insure neither of the above occurs.

But an Encampment is a different animal. There, it's very military and doing the push ups has been in the cadet program since the 1940's.

No, an encampment is not a different animal, in fact encampment leaders (and anyone else running any event that runs 4 overnights or more), are specifically required to attend "Required Staff Training', which is mandated to be a separate day, specifically attached to the encampment or activity, and which includes, by the same mandate, a 2-part anti-hazing and CPPT refresher.

Encampment environments are more prone to hazing and other similar problems because many of the cadets and seniors involved may be in leadership roles for the first time in their lives.

[flyguy06]

The prohibition against hazing and punitive physical activity applies to >ALL< members, regardless of status, age, or formal training.

For those that have not received formal training, the onus is on the adults to insure neither of the above occurs.

You missed the point of my thread. I am not arguing that it is a fact not to do push up. I am clear on that. I am arguing that I dont agree with it. Now wheather I agree with it or not I wilalways follow the rules. I am just trying to state why I do not agree with it and see if anyone agrees with me. I understand the rules, I just dont agree with them. But its ok, one day when I become the National Commander, it will all change.