What is your definition of "Cadet Run?"

[IceNine]

awesome thought I honestly never considered empowering them by teaching where things come from.  I always looked at it as I am training the trainers so whoever learned what I was teaching and did it well was the new expert in the subject matter, and they were the ones I showed where to find more Thanks

[flyguy06]

^^  Agree!  ROTC instructors do not babysit, they teach the proper way of doing something ONCE, then show the location of the instructions in case the CADETS forget what was taught. 

We could easily do that!

Exactly, but it may take more than one time. I remember when I was college ROTC, we had an instructor (he was a MSG Ranger type). He would always be out there leading PT for a few weeks. Then as the year went on, the cadetdsgradually took over. but it wasnt overnight or after one session.

[flyguy06]

Cadets need supervising. Especially CAP cadets. Think about it, if in Colleg eROTC where you are dealing with 18-22 year olds, they need guidence from adult supervisors what would you expect for 12-18 year old cadets that meet once a week for two hours?

[ZigZag911]

I disagree withthe current policy on hazing in CAP and  I think the whole hazing issues stemed from a lack of proper Senior Member supervision.

CAPR 52-10 defines hazing as "...any conduct whereby someone causes another to suffer or to be exposed to any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful."

Since I find it it mind-bogglingly unlikely that you favor cruelty, abuse, humiliation, oppression and so forth toward cadets by anyone, let alone their cadet leaders, I would appreciate it if you would expand on what precisely you object to in the CAP policy against hazing.

Also, while you are no doubt correct that lack of senior member guidance & supervision probably led to these problems in CAP, this does not explain why the service academies have also banned hazing -- it seems doubtful that it was due to lack of supervision by professional officers and noncoms overseeing the cadets/midshipmen.

[Ned]

I disagree withthe current policy on hazing in CAP and  I think the whole hazing issues stemed from a lack of proper Senior Member supervision.

CAPR 52-10 defines hazing as "...any conduct whereby someone causes another to suffer or to be exposed to any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful."

Since I find it it mind-bogglingly unlikely that you favor cruelty, abuse, humiliation, oppression and so forth toward cadets by anyone, let alone their cadet leaders, I would appreciate it if you would expand on what precisely you object to in the CAP policy against hazing.

Also, while you are no doubt correct that lack of senior member guidance & supervision probably led to these problems in CAP, this does not explain why the service academies have also banned hazing -- it seems doubtful that it was due to lack of supervision by professional officers and noncoms overseeing the cadets/midshipmen.

The problem is that we use the same definition as the DoD, but apply it in an arbitrary and unique manner, without providing sufficient guidance and training for our CP leaders.

Just one example:  After completing TLC, one is left with the strong impression that "yelling" is never appropriate in the CP.

Yet, the RealMilitary, using the same definition of hazing that we do, constantly engages in behavior that CAP would prohibit.  Just go to any service academy's Beast Barracks or equivalent, and see what it looks and sounds like.

Or USAF BMT, or Army Basic.

Sure, they have professionally trained DIs and are dealing with 18-20 year-olds and we have relatively untrained volunteers dealing with 13 year-olds.  I understand that.

But the problem, as you asked, is that we pretend to use the DoD definition, but in reality we do not.

This leads to significant confusion, loss of challenging training opportunities, and engenders fear in otherwise well-meaning seniors who become afraid to challenge our cadets to exceed their comfort zones.

That's the problem.

[ZigZag911]

So as I suspected, your concern is poor training, poor application and interpretation of regulations, and the misuse of CPPT to water down the cadet program.

My own observations have been that many members, senior & cadet alike, tend to take a somewhat cavalier attitude toward the nature of hazing....but, like your observations, mine are largely anecdotal, and may be characteristic of attitudes in NER rather than throughout CAP.

Yelling for its own sake does nothing but damage a potentially fine command voice...however, there are, I agree, that there are those occasions when volume is the only sure-fire attention getter to communicate a critical lesson....needs to be used sparingly.

[flyguy06]

Because idont see a problem with yelling or making cadets do push ups as punishment or motivation. Its just that some cadets took it out of hand and thats why they are band now. Push ups never hurt anyone but in CAP we are not allowed to administer them as a form of punishment. In fact we cannot punish cadets at all except 2b them which I think is extreme and uneccessary.

Youare right zigzag. yelling for the sake of yelling does no good , and thats what untrained leaders do. But properly trained leaders know when you yell and when not to. Thats what we as cadet program officers failed to instill in cadet leaders. We basically gave them the keys tothe house and left them alone with no instruction.

Some cadets dont understand yelling and treat it as a joke. Some cadets only repsond to physical remidial training such as push ups. Isee no problem with that.

Of course I dont agree with physiaclly trouching cadets or cursing or demeaning cadets. But I do believe in remedial training and teamwork exercises. We cant please all cadets. Military lifestyle is not for everybody. But because we dont want to "offend" anyone, we tend to lean toward trying to please.
people.

The service academies "say" they have a strict nohazing policy. But I am sure that is just to ease the public's mind. We have no idea what goes on during plebe period or during beast barracks summer camp.

[jimmydeanno]

In fact we cannot punish cadets at all except 2b them which I think is extreme and unnecessary.

Why do you say that?  There are plenty of other alternatives.  Here's some examples.

1) Retaining a cadet in grade or demotion.

2) Removal from a staff position.

3) Denied request to attend an activity such as encampment, NCSA, etc.

4) Removal from a team.

5) Make them instruct a class on their deficiency (you wouldn't say, you're having this class taught by so and so because he can't shine his shoes)

6) Counseling

7) Suspension from meetings or just extra activities.

Those are some examples, but IME it's pretty hard to get 2b'd from the program.  We had a cadet that accused seniors and some cadets of "sexually violating" them as well as racism (accusations that you can be held criminally liable for), got the seniors and cadets involved suspended, turns out the cadet doing the accusing was the guilty party and none of those accused had any findings, but that cadet still gets to show up...[/rant]

But there are plenty of other alternatives for 'punishment.' 

[MIKE]

Many cadets I have known would probably just quit or try to transfer out rather than face being demoted or suspended.

[jimmydeanno]

Many cadets I have known would probably just quit or try to transfer out rather than face being demoted or suspended.

I agree, but when it comes to that, there is usually a larger issue involved for the cadet, where it might be a benefit to leave the program to get their life straightened out.  I have seen cadets get demoted, some leave, some chalk it up to life experience and press on.  Of course knowing the cadets and determining what will actually work for them is key...

[flyguy06]

In fact we cannot punish cadets at all except 2b them which I think is extreme and unnecessary.

Why do you say that?  There are plenty of other alternatives.  Here's some examples.

1) Retaining a cadet in grade or demotion.

2) Removal from a staff position.

3) Denied request to attend an activity such as encampment, NCSA, etc.

4) Removal from a team.

5) Make them instruct a class on their deficiency (you wouldn't say, you're having this class taught by so and so because he can't shine his shoes)

6) Counseling

7) Suspension from meetings or just extra activities.

Those are some examples, but IME it's pretty hard to get 2b'd from the program.  We had a cadet that accused seniors and some cadets of "sexually violating" them as well as racism (accusations that you can be held criminally liable for), got the seniors and cadets involved suspended, turns out the cadet doing the accusing was the guilty party and none of those accused had any findings, but that cadet still gets to show up...[/rant]

But there are plenty of other alternatives for 'punishment.' 

It really depends on the make up and culture of your unit. These exmples are more long term then solving the immmediate problem.


Retaining a cadet in grade: A lot of cadets dont care about grade and rank or either will send the paperwork into National Themselves or will get pissed off and leave CAP. I dont want someone to quit for some little offense.


Removal from Staff position: In my squadron, we donthave enough cadets to even have a staff. I was referring to cadets in the ranks.

Denied to participate in encampments: Again, they will fill out the form 31 themselves, get their parents to sign and send it to Wing for the WIng CC's signiture. A lot of Wing CC's dont have a relatioship with Squadorn CC's and have no idea about issues at the Squadron level.

Plus, these are all punishiments that are long term for something serio0us. I was taling about minor things, like talking in formation, wearing the unifrom improperly. Things like that. I am not going to deny a cadet an encampment because he talked in formation. Make him do ten push ups and move on. Thats what I would do.

[Major Carrales]

Here is my take on "CADET RUN," of I would better call it "Cadet Driven."

A Cadet driven Unit is one where a CP Program CAP OFFICER closely supervises the activities of a CADET STAFF.  The Cadet staff builds it leadership from Curry on up.  Basically, the CAP Officer runs it all until Cadets can take these roles.  CADETS are introduced to the the appropriate REGS and given responsibility via those dictums.

By Wright Brothers a "fresh unit," one that started from scratch, should have a motivated Cadet FLight/Squadron Commander with a staff that is setting its own basic direction under 1) the Regs and 2) The CAP Officer in Command as part of 3) The Squadron Commander's vision for the Unit.

Thus, the Cadet Commander has input...the staff is functional (as the Senior Staff should be also).

The CP CAP Officer has veto power, as does the Squadron Commander.  But the cadet's reach a point where they "run themselves."  The CP CAP Officer becomes a "guide on the side" instead of a "sage on a stage."

This creates "ownership" of the program.  The CP CAP Officer should also be there to mitigate the political meshegas that often arises in these situations.  Cadets can appeal to the high power in the unit to resolve matters.

That is how I see it...

[flyguy06]

I am in a Squadron where we have 5 cadets. The highest ranking being a cadet Airman. We also have a school program with 15 cadets. They dont do any actitivities outside of school due to finances.

[jimmydeanno]

I am in a Squadron where we have 5 cadets. The highest ranking being a cadet Airman. We also have a school program with 15 cadets. They dont do any actitivities outside of school due to finances.

  So...what does that mean in terms of being "cadet run?"  Is this situation caused because the adult staff gives too much discretion to the cadets?  How does this relate to the topic? <-- not trying to be a jerk, but I had a disconnect in trying to associate this with the topic...

[flyguy06]

It realtes, by saying that becaus ewe are smal and have inexperienced cadets, I as the DCC have to "run" or "drive" as you will the cadet program. I am essentially the pusedo cadet commander.

[jimmydeanno]

Do you have any association with the school program cadets?  How does the instructor interact with those cadets, how much is 'cadet run' vs. 'instructor run'?

Personally, I am glad to see that you didn't make the C/Amn a C/CC.  Thank you for clarifying for me, I'm not always the sharpest knife in the drawer...

[IceNine]

In fact we cannot punish cadets at all except 2b them which I think is extreme and unnecessary.

Why do you say that?  There are plenty of other alternatives.  Here's some examples.

1) Retaining a cadet in grade or demotion.

2) Removal from a staff position.

3) Denied request to attend an activity such as encampment, NCSA, etc.

4) Removal from a team.

5) Make them instruct a class on their deficiency (you wouldn't say, you're having this class taught by so and so because he can't shine his shoes)

6) Counseling

7) Suspension from meetings or just extra activities.

Those are some examples, but IME it's pretty hard to get 2b'd from the program.  We had a cadet that accused seniors and some cadets of "sexually violating" them as well as racism (accusations that you can be held criminally liable for), got the seniors and cadets involved suspended, turns out the cadet doing the accusing was the guilty party and none of those accused had any findings, but that cadet still gets to show up...[/rant]

But there are plenty of other alternatives for 'punishment.' 

It really depends on the make up and culture of your unit. These examples are more long term then solving the immediate problem.


Retaining a cadet in grade: A lot of cadets didn't care about grade and rank or either will send the paperwork into National Themselves or will get pissed off and leave CAP. I didn't want someone to quit for some little offense.


Removal from Staff position: In my squadron, we don't have enough cadets to even have a staff. I was referring to cadets in the ranks.

Denied to participate in encampments: Again, they will fill out the form 31 themselves, get their parents to sign and send it to Wing for the WIng CC's signature. A lot of Wing CC's didn't have a relationship with Squadron CC's and have no idea about issues at the Squadron level.

Plus, these are all punishments that are long term for something serio0us. I was taling about minor things, like talking in formation, wearing the uniform improperly. Things like that. I am not going to deny a cadet an encampment because he talked in formation. Make him do ten push ups and move on. Thats what I would do.

[/RANT] I'm sorry but nothing in this whole previous blurb makes any sense, Cadets bypassing command decisions?!?! cadets promoting themselves?!?!? cadets Not caring about grade!?!?  I have been in CAP for 10 years 8 as a cadet and I have traveled the country and met thousands of cadets not once have I heard on say oh I want to be an airman for the rest of my career or whatever.  There is the obvious reservation to being an officer by some, not many but some.  Now to the more serious things first off, if a cadet in my unit bypassed the CC's decision on punishment (i.e.-sent 31's to wing for activity without my signature) their world would get so much worse,  Because anytime a cadet is disciplined in my unit their parents are brought in on the situation (assuming it is bad enough) and there is a letter of reprimand placed in the cadets file with their signature, their parents, and the CC  If the cadet was to go around be and apply for encampment anyway i would send off a copy of the letter to the wing CC, the encampment commander and have a heart to heart with the parents again, then the cadet would be demoted and probably taken off staff (pending decision from a review board), as for cadets "promoting" themselves by sending paperwork to nationals, assuming they can get their hands on it and find where to send it props them, again in that situation I would rectify the situation by sending off the paperwork to demote them twice (so they get an actual demotion) and the punishment would start stacking up from there, (removal from staff, withholding activities, instructing classes monthly on integrity, honesty, the cadet oath etc.  So the fact that you brought up that cadets would do that tells me they probably have done that, and they were still slapped on the wrist because "we cannot discipline our cadets"  [/Rant]


NOW, to the original question... "we cannot punish our cadets" your right but we can motivate them, that being said here are some thoughts pushups in my experience are not a motivator for 13 year old xbox generation anyway.  To motivate these cadets you have to invade their comfort zone and push them outside of it.  Some ways to do this are make them give speeches/classes, establish a reward system for proficiency in all or some of the areas that cadets are evaluated on (i.e.-create a cadet of the month/cadet of distinction)  inspect the cadets weekly and provide feedback as to what can me corrected, keeping in mind that to get them to listen you MUST break them down and enough to get past the "tough" outer layer by showing them how disappointed you are that they did not correct those Irish pennants you pointed out last week etc, and then you MUST build them back up and show them what they are doing right, and the one thing I have always noticed (however, not military) is if you give them a handshake after inspection they will feel more like a human, and be willing to make you happy in the future.  again to throw cadets out of their comfort zone is HIGHLY effective motivator to not "mess up again"  the ideas and are endless just let your mind travel and stop trying to DISCIPLINE and start MOTIVATING!!!

[flyguy06]

Ok. if you have a Squadron of 20 or 30 cadets you could discipline one or two . But when you have a Squadron of 5 or 10 cadets. If you discpline to harshly they will leave.

If I demote a cadet or forbid him from an activity, he will just stop comming to meeting. If I had 20 cadets it wouldnt matter but since I have 7 cadets, that would make a significant impact.

We dont have a cadet staff.

And again, when I say punishment I amnot talking about the lengths that you are. I am talking moreso about on the spot corrections.

[IceNine]

one flaw in the previous argument "it wouldn't matter" everytime a member leaves it matters, regardless of wheter or not they are the best or the brightest, we have an opportunity to shape lives, and create leaders in some of the most unusual circumstances.  Some cadets come to us from private schools, and were raised by a Retired Marine General.  Others come to us from the the most povern stricken, dangerous societies on the planet.  All come to us for relief, and to help fulfil Maslow's triangle.  we have a chance with these young people to shape the rest of their lives, and just like anything else that has the potential to make your life better (school, work, military, YMCA) whatever there are rules that are enforced and they need to be taught that just because they are disciplined does not mean that they are not wanted or needed, and that regardless they still have the potential to be great in their own way.  I know all this sounds a little hopelessly romantic but thats just the way it is/should be.  We have to keep our heads held high despite the trials we will face and as long as we can present the illusion of seamless command we will be influencing these cadets through out actions and eventually words are considerably less effective than your eyes telling a cadet you are disappointed when you are talking to them.  It takes a lot of work to get to that point but it can be done.

Semper Gumby!!!

[ZigZag911]

Lt Hendricks hits the nail on the head: involve parents & the squadron commander in serious situations.

Motivate as far as possible.

Make punishment when required quick, related to the infraction -- and have a policy that the slate gets wiped clean....no throwing it in their faces forever afterwards.

My own practice is to quote Michael Corleone to them (As group CC I did it to squadron CCs on occasion, too!): "This isn't personal, it's business!"

As much as I sympathize with your situation, Flyguy, having lived through a squadron that simply would not grow & stabilize about 20 years ago, let me share this from my experience: unless you have clear, fair standards and expectations, you'll never get beyond a handful of cadets.

Also, it's fine not having a 'staff' if they are too inexperienced & junior....but start giving them, especially those that show promise, leadership opportunities as soon as possible, with in the limits of their abilities...taking turns forming the flight,  leading an opening ceremony, practicing facing movements, checking each other's uniforms (a 'pre-inspection').

The sooner you get them used to shallow water, the quicker they'll be ready for the deep end!