Great News! The 2015 Cadet Encampment Assistance Program

[Rafka]

Having gone to encampment when I was a C/CMSgt and 17 years old. I would suggest that going to late is not for the better. I believe the Airman to Senior Airman grades are for the best. You are also limited to almost no other NCSAs until you complete encampment. Not everyone joins when they're 12.

[Airplane girl]

In a way, the Great Start program makes sure that cadets don't get their Curry really early. From what I know about it, cadets get their Curry 5 weeks after joining with the Great Start program. In my squadron, I got mine 3 weeks after joining and two other cadets got theirs 2 weeks after joining.

I think that waiting until cadets promote to C/SSgt-C/SMSgt is kind of waiting too long.  When I went to encampment last winter (as a 13 year old C/SrA), I was fine. I didn't really struggle at encampment. And I knew some 18 year old cadet senior NCOs that did. I found out a few months after encampment that a lot of people thought I was 16. But I think that encampment emphasizes learning how to be a good follower more than being a good leader, so the skills learned at encampment would be more useful to a C/Amn, a C/A1C, or a C/SrA. Someone who is a C/SSgt-C/SMSgt might learn things that are more relevant to their position at their home squadron at a NCOLS. Although, if a certain cadet does not have the maturity to go to an encampment until they are a C/SSgt-C/SMSgt, then they should definitely wait until then.

[Rafka]

If a cadet doesn't have the maturity to go to encampment until they are a C/SMSgt. Then somebody failed in training that cadet along the way.

[LSThiker]

If a cadet doesn't have the maturity to go to encampment until they are a C/SMSgt. Then somebody failed in training that cadet along the way.

No. There could be a number of reasons.  Such as money, work, family/family vacations, etc.

[Rafka]

If a cadet doesn't have the maturity to go to encampment until they are a C/SMSgt. Then somebody failed in training that cadet along the way.

No. There could be a number of reasons.  Such as money, work, family/family vacations, etc.

I said maturity. I'm well aware of the other reasons they might have to wait.

[Eaker Guy]

If a cadet doesn't have the maturity to go to encampment until they are a C/SMSgt. Then somebody failed in training that cadet along the way.

True. The grades I threw out were just suggestions off the top of my head.

[Eaker Guy]

In a way, the Great Start program makes sure that cadets don't get their Curry really early. From what I know about it, cadets get their Curry 5 weeks after joining with the Great Start program. In my squadron, I got mine 3 weeks after joining and two other cadets got theirs 2 weeks after joining.

I think that waiting until cadets promote to C/SSgt-C/SMSgt is kind of waiting too long.  When I went to encampment last winter (as a 13 year old C/SrA), I was fine. I didn't really struggle at encampment. And I knew some 18 year old cadet senior NCOs that did. I found out a few months after encampment that a lot of people thought I was 16. But I think that encampment emphasizes learning how to be a good follower more than being a good leader, so the skills learned at encampment would be more useful to a C/Amn, a C/A1C, or a C/SrA. Someone who is a C/SSgt-C/SMSgt might learn things that are more relevant to their position at their home squadron at a NCOLS. Although, if a certain cadet does not have the maturity to go to an encampment until they are a C/SSgt-C/SMSgt, then they should definitely wait until then.

Depends on how you look at it. 90% or so of recruits will most likely be able to graduate in five weeks. However, the ones that don't will be demoralized, and will have to go through additional training/mentoring. That's one of the drawbacks. I think Great Start is, well, great(no pun intended).

[LSThiker]

If a cadet doesn't have the maturity to go to encampment until they are a C/SMSgt. Then somebody failed in training that cadet along the way.

No. There could be a number of reasons.  Such as money, work, family/family vacations, etc.

I said maturity. I'm well aware of the other reasons they might have to wait.

My apologies.  I read maturity in a different context.  As in personal maturity to want to go to encampment.

[lordmonar]

Guys......NHQ has already set the standard.  If they got their Curry they are ready to go.  If encampment is too hard.... You adjust your encampment not the other way around.

[xray328]

Squadron commander still has to sign off,  no?

[lordmonar]

Squadron commander still has to sign off,  no?

Yes.  But why would he not?

The point I am making is.....we have had complaints in this thread about cadets not being ready for Encampment because they don't know how to march or that they don't know enough about CAP because they have only been in CAP for a few weeks and only just got their Curry.

That is not a valid complaint IMHO.

The Pre-Req for encampment has always been Curry.    So....you need to make sure that you are gearing your encampment to accommodate 12 year olds who have only been in CAP for a month.

If your program is too hard for 12 year olds with only a few weeks in CAP and only know how to do stationary drill and only have their one set of BDUs......then you need to re-look at what 52-16 says.

Now.....if you don't think Encampment should be that low-bar lowest common denominator.....then you need to challenge it up to NHQ CP types to make some changes.    But if you make the minimum grade say Wright Brothers.....then how many people are not going to be able to attend encampment at all?  If you make the minimum time in CAP six months or one year....then how many people are not going to be able to attend encampment?   If you make the minimum age 13 or 14...then again how many CAP members are not going to be able to attend?

Sure...the commander has the right and duty to deny a cadet the opportunity to go to encampment.   Little Johnny can't even go on an over night with out mommy or daddy.....sure maybe he needs to wait a year.   Little Timmy does not work and play well with other....sure no encampment for you.

But if Billy joins in April gets his Curry at the end of May he most certainly should be allowed to go to encampment in June. 

[xray328]

Agreed, very valid points.

But what part of 52-16 are you referring to?  I just read part 9 "Encampments", it specifically says that some cadets would best be served by waiting for their second eligibility period (under 14)

Eligibility. To participate, cadets must have completed Achievement 1 and receive permission from their parent or guardian and unit commander via the online encampment application in eServices or a CAPF 31. Encampments may require cadets' parents to sign additional legal releases, if mandated by the host facility. Squadron commanders shall discuss the encampment environment with parents of their cadets, especially parents of cadets under age 14. It is conceivable that some of the youngest and newest CAP cadets will be best served if they attend encampment during their second cycle of eligibility.

[Spam]

That is one of the wisest sections in the reg, often overlooked by units pushing to flush new students through encampment before they're ready.

I'll take crap from anyone gladly (with all the bold face expostulations and exclamations(!!!!) you'd like to add) for adhering to standards on this, and for maintaining not a lower standard but a higher set of expecations. Am I "complaining"? Negative. I'm simply stating that when making a command decision as to whether a new cadet is ready to attend encampment, in my experience very few of them (with a few exceptions) are ready with that little time in as a cadet, Curry Achievement or not. (And yes, I've approved the rare 16 or 17 year old, one of whom went on to West Point, USMA).

Lord, you're right; the standard is the Curry, as dumbed down as it seems these days, and I never would entertain raising that bar to Wright Bros. A Curry should be a Curry, should be a Curry... and yet, even with the lowered standards, I still see people busting it in an attempt to lower the bar to improve retention, or make cadets feel good, or something.  When I see someone at encampment (and my experience on this spans five Wings over three Regions, since '83, and three command tours plus my last job as a DCP) who can't perform basic drill to standards, I have to question if their home unit has "relaxed" the LL1 practical drill test to push them through. When I visit a unit on PT night or an encampment and see cadets miserably fail to meet standards for their current grade, I suspect someone hasn't been administering the CPFT to standards (and in some cases, I've documented that they haven't for inspections). When I find that many of these cadets haven't the foggiest what our Core Values are and can't recite the Cadet Oath from memory (the latter of which is a Curry promotion requirement), my conclusion is that we have units pushing Johnny through, which is a failure of ethical leadership and an integrity bust.

Dumbing down encampments is absolutely the wrong route to take, especially since DoD components continue to view Mitchell cadets as having achieved the equivalent of some degree of advanced standing.  Ensuring that our prospective trainees are ready absolutely IS the correct approach, and that means making a judgment call, as I've done, as I (don't) get paid to do (grin).

Go ahead, teammates. Tell me how your units push and succeed with the Curry-in-a-weekend package. I'm happy some of you earned the Curry in two weeks, and I wish you well and hope it all works out for you.


I know whose units will regularly have "issues" at encampment, though.


V/R,
Spam

[lordmonar]

Agreed, very valid points.

But what part of 52-16 are you referring to?  I just read part 9 "Encampments", it specifically says that some cadets would best be served by waiting for their second eligibility period (under 14)

Eligibility. To participate, cadets must have completed Achievement 1 and receive permission from their parent or guardian and unit commander via the online encampment application in eServices or a CAPF 31. Encampments may require cadets' parents to sign additional legal releases, if mandated by the host facility. Squadron commanders shall discuss the encampment environment with parents of their cadets, especially parents of cadets under age 14. It is conceivable that some of the youngest and newest CAP cadets will be best served if they attend encampment during their second cycle of eligibility.

The part of 52-16 that says what a Curry is, what they are supposed to know and how much drill they are supposed to know.

I agree that if the cadet is not mature enough to go at 12......i.e. home sickness, able to sleep in open bays, and share bathroom/shower facilities etc. then sure...maybe have that cadet wait a year or two.   

But a Curry is a Curry....and nothing but a Curry...and unless we make the minimum Write Brothers....then you WILL get cadets who do not know how to march.   Because Curry's don't need to know how to march.

Spam,

I think you and are are talking apples and oranges.   

Yep...lots of squadrons don't hold up their standards.   But most do.
But that does not have anything to do with the level of knowledge 52-16 says a cadet is supposed to have going into encampment.
As long as that is the minimum....then that is the bar and we need to adjust our encampments to meet that bar.

And it is not Dumbing Down the encampment.....it is the standards already established by CAP with DoD's concurrence. 

Now....let's say that you are correct and a new cadet with say 5 weeks in the program (the time it takes to run the Great Start Program) are not ready for encampment.....then we need to communicate that up the chain to the CP shop and fix  that disconnect.

If you know that units are not running their program to standards....then you need to let the wing DCP and the Wing CC know and fix it.

Sorry but that is just the way it is.

If you are running an encampment where the average 12 year old with only 5 weeks in is struggling then you are running your encampment outside the established standards.

YMMV.

[xray328]

Can you please link me to the section of the current 52-16 (2014 edition) that outlines what they are supposed to know for the Curry? I'm not seeing it.  Not challenging you here...I'm just trying to find it so I know.

[xray328]

If this is what's required for the Curry,  and the Curry is what we base a cadets "encampment readiness" on, for drill in this case, it's seriously lacking.  These are all stationary movements.

[Tim Medeiros]

If this is what's required for the Curry,  and the Curry is what we base a cadets "encampment readiness" on, for drill in this case, it's seriously lacking.  These are all stationary movements.

Yes, yes they are.  This is because you don't run without walking, and you don't walk without crawling.  Each of the drill tests build upon the other.  This is drill of the element, the basic of the basic stuff anyone should know.  It should be noted that of the drill tests that don't involve control of someone else, this and the Arnold Achievement have the highest number of items that must be satisfactorily completed at 15.  The test with the highest number of items to be completed is drill of the flight at 21, followed closely by having a cadet diagram a higher level formation AND a ceremony which is worth 20 points total.


Simply put, Achievements 1 and 2 is where we place a good deal of demand on cadets to learn drill, something that they probably just learned wasn't a tool in their parents garage or shed.  Compared to the learning curve there, all the other drill tests are a cake walk.  We don't want to overload these new cadets, we're already requiring more of them now than when I was new to the program nearly 16 years ago.  Back then I didn't have a drill test, I didn't have a safety requirement, all I had to do was read a chapter in the leadership book and do the point based PT test, I didn't even have event minimums for that.  There might have been a moral leadership thing, I don't recall, it was 1999, if there was it was during the meeting and nothing special.  These days we require 1) leadership test, 2) drill test, 3) PT test with event minimums, 4) Wingman Course (now incorporating Intro to Safety with Character Development), 5) OPSEC, I think that's everything.


Additionally, all this attention is being placed on cadets who just joined, got their Curry and are off to encampment.  Does anyone have any HARD numbers (such as a datamine of CAPWATCH data for a wing or region) on how many annually actually do this?  The newest cadet heading to encampment today from my unit is from near the end of February and just got his Arnold, that's at least 12 weeks of lead time.  Please, someone, mine the data, I'd really like to know how prevalent a short time cadet going to encampment is.  By short time I'm thinking less than 8 weeks.

EDIT: The results for SWR, 61 out of 2191 cadets currently listed in the CAPWATCH DownLoad that have encampment.  That is 2.78411684162483%.  This is including an obvious error in entry, there is a member with an original join date 297 days after their date of encampment.  If you figure that was a "fat finger" mistake, that would be 60 out of 2191 which is 2.73847558192606% of cadets.  Your cadets have a higher chance of being an Earhart cadet than going to encampment within 56 days of joining.  NOTE: I used a date range of 63 days to account for the encampment completion date generally being the graduation day.

Food for thought.

[stitchmom]

Kids today aren't required to memorize things like we had to 100 years ago. Even Sunday School has changed in that regard. They may not have had a lot of experience in memorizing information independently or reviewing what they learned before.

Why not spend twenty minutes with them helping them memorize or teach them how to spend 5 minutes reviewing each day. It may not be an ethics violation on leadership but more from kids not having the skills yet. Maybe they said it once but they didn't look at it after that.

[LSThiker]

We don't want to overload these new cadets, we're already requiring more of them now than when I was new to the program nearly 16 years ago.  Back then I didn't have a drill test, I didn't have a safety requirement, all I had to do was read a chapter in the leadership book and do the point based PT test, I didn't even have event minimums for that.  There might have been a moral leadership thing, I don't recall, it was 1999, if there was it was during the meeting and nothing special.  These days we require 1) leadership test, 2) drill test, 3) PT test with event minimums, 4) Wingman Course (now incorporating Intro to Safety with Character Development), 5) OPSEC, I think that's everything.

Tim, back then we did have a drill test.  It just was not enforced all that well.  It was part of the leadership test for every test up to the Goddard Achievement.

For the Curry award from 1999, a cadet needed to:

Pass CPFT with 90 points
Pass Leadership 2000 and Beyond Test Chapter 1
Participate in 50% of Moral Leadership Discussions
Unit Activity


So the only new requirements are the Wingman Course and OPSEC.  Although really the wingman course is just a more formal extension of the moral leadership requirement from 1999.

[xray328]

I understand the reason why drill instruction is setup like it is. But you can't say in place movements are all you need for the Curry, the Curry prepares you for encampment, now show up knowing how to march in formation.

Seems like there's a lot of debate on what a cadet should show up with. The consensus seems to be that it's not cadet basic training, but if the kid can't march then that's what it becomes. Since the Curry isn't changing and NHQ says that's what's required to attend, I agree then that encampments have to be prepared to accept kids that are going to need that "cadet basic training".

And yes, 2% is a small percentage...unless your kids in that 2% (raises hand).