New CAPR 52-16 Just Dropped

[LSThiker]

drawing an artificial fence around a particular kind of beverage without consistency to other sources of the same "problematic element" in this case caffeine.

It is not an artificial fence.  It is a fence recommended by experts in pediatrics and medicine.  CAP is not saying energy drinks are bad.  They are using the recommendation of the DHHS and AAP among others.

[lordmonar]

Maybe Ned can chime in with the legal mumbo jumbo....but as I understand it as a layman......on CAP time we are their parents.

I know that I am the one going to get sued if Little Johnny goes into a diabetic shock on my watch.

Well no not really. 

CAPR 160-1:

4-1. General Rule. The taking of prescription medication is the responsibility of the individual member for whom the medication was prescribed or, if the member is a minor, the member's parent or guardian. Except in extraordinary circumstances, CAP members, regardless of age, will be responsible for transporting, storing, and taking their own medications, including inhalers and epinephrine pens.
a. A CAP senior member, after obtaining all the necessary information and receiving documentation of the written permission from a minor cadet's parent or guardian for the administration of prescription medication during the activity, can agree to accept the responsibility of making sure the minor cadet is reminded to take any prescribed medication at the times and in the frequencies prescribed; however, no senior member will be required or encouraged to do so. This regulation does not prohibit senior member staff from monitoring medication compliance with directly observed medication ingestion, having medication forms for the cadet to initial when doses were taken, performing pill counts, or other compliance verification.
b. When a cadet is unable to safely self-medicate and senior member supervision is not available, one option may be to postpone attendance at the activity until the cadet can handle the self-medication task. Another option may be to have a parent or guardian attend the activity as a CAP member or cadet sponsor member to supervise the cadet's medication.
c. In the case of a severe reaction requiring use of an epinephrine injection pen where a cadet has become so ill as to have difficulty in administering his or her own epinephrine injection, senior members may assist the cadet in administering the epinephrine injection in order to save the life of the cadet. It is encouraged that health service officers or senior members who may have contact with this cadet be made aware of the potential for severe reactions and become familiar with the operation of the cadet's particular epinephrine device.
d. Members who require refrigeration for medications should carefully coordinate with activity officials well in advance of their attendance at the activity to ensure that refrigeration will be available. CAP cannot guarantee the availability of refrigeration at all activities.

Diabetic shock brought on by drinking too many energy drinks....not because of a diabetic got their meds screwed up.
But CAPR 160-1 will not keep me out of court in any case....it may make sure I got a CAP lawyer on my side or not.  But my point is that the encampment/activity director/commander is responsible for the health and safety of his people at this activity.

[LSThiker]

Diabetic shock brought on by drinking too many energy drinks....not because of a diabetic got their meds screwed up.
But CAPR 160-1 will not keep me out of court in any case....it may make sure I got a CAP lawyer on my side or not.  But my point is that the encampment/activity director/commander is responsible for the health and safety of his people at this activity.

Okay, I was going on the meds assumption. 

Either way, it will keep you (personal finances) out of court as you would be following the rules, which were also acknowledged by the parents (permission slip).  So if they sue, they will be suing the organization, not you personally.

Nevertheless, I await for Ned's opinion.

[Alaric]

drawing an artificial fence around a particular kind of beverage without consistency to other sources of the same "problematic element" in this case caffeine.

It is not an artificial fence.  It is a fence recommended by experts in pediatrics and medicine.  CAP is not saying energy drinks are bad.  They are using the recommendation of the DHHS and AAP among others.

DHHS and the AAP make plenty of other recommendations to, fat consumption, sodium consumption, etc.  CAP is saying energy drinks are bd based on the recommendation of the AAP and DHHS

[lordmonar]

Maybe Ned can chime in with the legal mumbo jumbo....but as I understand it as a layman......on CAP time we are their parents.

I know that I am the one going to get sued if Little Johnny goes into a diabetic shock on my watch.
I know that I am the one who will have to answer to NHQ on down for any accidents that happen on my watch.
I know that I am the one who's job is to keep Johnny save on my watch.

So....why are nutritional decisions different then all the other health and safety decisions I make for other people's kids.....EVERY TIME I AM AT A CADET ACTIVITY?

All the rest of you statement is not germain to this key point here.   Explain why CAP can say "You can't run on the flight line" to someone else's kids....but not say "you can't drink energy drinks on CAP activities"?

First I'm not saying they can't say it, as that would be stupid they have said it.  I'm saying it's wrong and is a slippery slope that we shouldn't be making.  There is a difference between decisions that need to be made for immediate dangers to health and safety (don't run on the flight line) and decisions about nutrition, which at the end of the day are meaningless because even if we are "their parents" for the 3 hours we have them since the other 165 hours of the week we have no control over them at the end of the day, it will have no real effect.  We are making a random decision of what should be forbidden based on someone's opinion, drawing an artificial fence around a particular kind of beverage without consistency to other sources of the same "problematic element" in this case caffeine.

For the 3 hours....for the 7 day for the 14 days that I got a cadet......I don't care about all those other hours and days.   You stay safe and healthy on my time.   Energy drinks are not good for you.   Don't drink them on CAP time.   

The slippery slope is not a factor here.   It a logical fallacy that has no bearing on whether we should or should not ban cadets from drinking energy drinks.

You say it is wrong......so present the evidence and show that study cited is wrong in its conclusions and recommendations.  Show where CAP is wrong to make the interpretation they did of the study and the conclusions that they came up with.   Show that the implementation of said policy is wrong....morally, logically, legally or what ever. 

I make random decisions about safety based on other peoples opinions all the time.   I've never walked into a spinning propeller but I've been told that it is a BAD thing to do.   Other then the speed at which one can kill you........what is the effective difference in this case?   Too much sugar and caffeine on a hot summer day when stressed by encampment or on a SAREX can cause server reactions.  That can cause death.      So just like we don't let Little Timmy run on the flight line.....even if his mom let's him when they go down to the air port......Little Timmy can't have his energy drink on CAP time.   If Timmy's mom's wishes are more important to CAP responsibility to keep Timmy Safe.....how can we possibly order Timmy not to run on the flight line?

[LSThiker]

DHHS and the AAP make plenty of other recommendations to, fat consumption, sodium consumption, etc.  CAP is saying energy drinks are bd based on the recommendation of the AAP and DHHS

Which are found in CAPP 52-18 Chapter 3 and CAPR 160-1.

[Eclipse]

First I'm not saying they can't say it, as that would be stupid they have said it.  I'm saying it's wrong and is a slippery slope that we shouldn't be making.  There is a difference between decisions that need to be made for immediate dangers to health and safety (don't run on the flight line) and decisions about nutrition, which at the end of the day are meaningless because even if we are "their parents" for the 3 hours we have them since the other 165 hours of the week we have no control over them at the end of the day, it will have no real effect.  We are making a random decision of what should be forbidden based on someone's opinion, drawing an artificial fence around a particular kind of beverage without consistency to other sources of the same "problematic element" in this case caffeine.

Caffeine is not the issue, nor the substance of concern - you gotta read those labels.

Monster:
Caffeine: 10Mg per OZ.
Ingredients: carbonated water, sucrose, glucose, citric acid, natural flavors, taurine, sodium citrate, color added, panax ginseng root extract, L-carnitine, caffeine, sorbic acid, benzoic acid, niacinamide, sodium chloride, glucuronolactone, inositol, guarana seed extract, pyridoxine hydrochloride, sucralose, riboflavin, maltodextrin, and cyanocobalamin.

Coffee:
Caffeine: 12Mg per OZ.
Ingredients: Water, coffee.

Not to mention that those studies that exist indicate that caffeine is worse in the developing adolescent then in adults,
which is basically true for just about any questionable substance.

Beyond that, CAP is no longer supposed to present a proper example, or establish rules for its participants?
In many, many cases, an encampment or other CAP activity is the only time these kids ever get proper nutrition
or the right amount of sleep, literally.

[lordmonar]

drawing an artificial fence around a particular kind of beverage without consistency to other sources of the same "problematic element" in this case caffeine.

It is not an artificial fence.  It is a fence recommended by experts in pediatrics and medicine.  CAP is not saying energy drinks are bad.  They are using the recommendation of the DHHS and AAP among others.

DHHS and the AAP make plenty of other recommendations to, fat consumption, sodium consumption, etc.  CAP is saying energy drinks are bd based on the recommendation of the AAP and DHHS

I am assuming bd means bad............but Yes...that's right.  CAP is saying don't let the cadets drink energy drinks on CAP time because we think they are bad based on our read of the DHHS and AAP recommendations.

Now if you want to argue what the shape and size that fence should be........by adding or removing classes of foods and beverages or specific products......by all means that would be acceptable.

You made a claim before that Red Bull has less caffeine then a cup of coffee......it that is true...the maybe Red Bull should not be classed as an energy drink.     I know that the D&Der's life blood was the dreaded Mountain Dew.....If MD got too much of the bad stuff it should be banned too.....I got no problem with consistency.   Define the standard and then draw the line.

[Spaceman3750]

In a study (http://nutrition.ucdavis.edu/content/infosheets/fact-pro-energydrinks.pdf) UC Davis pegged the Monster caffeine content closer to 80mg per serving, with 2-3 servings in a can... Which means more like 160mg per drink.

I'm not sure where I stand on the whole energy drink debate. I enjoy Redbull in certain situations but not at CAP activities (I'm also an adult). How about we compromise - you can drink energy drinks but if you're bouncing off the walls your parents get to come pick you up...

[Eclipse]

Red Bull:
Caffeine 9.46 MG per Oz

Ingredients: taurine, glucuronolactone, B-group vitamins

Mountain Dew:
Caffeine 4.5 MG per Oz

Ingrediants (varies by country)
"carbonated water, High-fructose corn syrup (in much of the U.S.), concentrated orange juice, citric acid, natural flavors, sodium benzoate, caffeine, sodium citrate, erythorbic acid, gum arabic, calcium disodium EDTA, brominated vegetable oil, and yellow 5."

[lordmonar]

In a study (http://nutrition.ucdavis.edu/content/infosheets/fact-pro-energydrinks.pdf) UC Davis pegged the Monster caffeine content closer to 80mg per serving, with 2-3 servings in a can... Which means more like 160mg per drink.

I'm not sure where I stand on the whole energy drink debate. I enjoy Redbull in certain situations but not at CAP activities (I'm also an adult). How about we compromise - you can drink energy drinks but if you're bouncing off the walls your parents get to come pick you up...

We can't get them to pick them up when they have set fire to the building, jumped the fence, ran across the red line at the flight line and call the encampment commander a very very bad name.......

[Spaceman3750]

Red Bull:
Caffeine 9.46 MG per Oz

Ingredients: taurine, glucuronolactone, B-group vitamins

Mountain Dew:
Caffeine 4.5 MG per Oz

Ingrediants (varies by country)
"carbonated water, High-fructose corn syrup (in much of the U.S.), concentrated orange juice, citric acid, natural flavors, sodium benzoate, caffeine, sodium citrate, erythorbic acid, gum arabic, calcium disodium EDTA, brominated vegetable oil, and yellow 5."

Yeah I missed the per oz in your post. Sorry 'bout that.

[SarDragon]

I have a cardiac issue that is aggravated by alcohol and caffeine. I have discussed the permissible level of caffeine consumption with my cardio doctor several times, particularly regarding sources. He has outright banned all energy drinks, strongly recommended not drinking regular coffee, and suggested a limit of one caffeine soda per day. Obviously, I don't have to follow any of that, but I do, because I value my health and wish to extend my longevity.

Caffeine raises your heart rate artificially, in a manner different from exercise, higher doses can affect concentration, and it can affect how your body processes different nutrients.

Bottom line - there's no good reason to allow energy drinks for cadets at CAP activities, and a whole bunch of reasons.

[NIN]

We can't get them to pick them up when they have set fire to the building, jumped the fence, ran across the red line at the flight line and call the encampment commander a very very bad name.......

You remember that encampment, too?

[NIN]

Besides, if a cadet cannot go for a typical weekend activity without an energy drink or even an encampment without an energy drink, is not that telling you something?

^This.

I've been to a number of encampments in my time. Commanded a few, commandant of cadets, various other staff positions (often managing training), etc.

One thing I have noticed (and this goes back to at LEAST my time as a senior, and probably WIWAC, but never noticed it) is that when summer rolls around, kids shift their sleep schedules.  Not all kids, but a lot.  They wind up playing video games or whatever and going to bed at 4-6am, sleep till noon, etc. 

Some teenagers then do stuff like slam Red Bull (back in my day it was D&D or movies on the VCR and Coke or Mountain Dew) . This helps maintain their shift when the body tries to take them back to an "awake when its light, sleeping when its dark" kind of schedule that their circadian rhythm wants.

So here comes encampment.  Cadets all arrive and fill on Saturday, Saturday night is absolute chaos in the barracks after lights out. Cadets are all keyed up, most have only been awake since noon, are all in their bunks but everybody is talking, screwing around, etc.

Next morning, you roll everybody out of bed for PT and you can almost pick out the sleep-shifted cadets who are going to be struggling during the day.  They're the ones that look like they're still asleep at PT. Why? Because their body probably only actually went to bed at midnight or later, so they only have a few hours of sleep and quite a bit less than everybody else in the last 24 hrs.  They're getting up for PT at encampment about the time that they would normally be going to bed.  Their body goes "Woah! Whats this?"

That first full day is a lot of moving around, but you start to pick out the somnambulistic cadets. They're in the chow line with their heads lolling around, they're eating like they're in a haze, and god forbid you put them in the base theater for a class of some sort!  I tried to avoid putting a sit-down class on the schedule after lunch those first couple days, but sometimes thats just how it worked.   And the number of chins meeting chests in that training block was usually pretty high.

Now imagine if cadets are allowed to use chemical stimulants to "fix" their sleepyness?

Frankly, I'm glad that there is guidance that says they're not allowed.  I didn't allow it anyway, and the buck stopped with me, but its nice to have something hang one's hat on (I didn't meet a parent who said "You're a horrible man for not letting my Johnny have Mountain Dew!"  Most said "He didn't have a soda all week? How did you manage that?")

BTW, with the advent of Red Bull and other energy drinks, I didn't even let the cadet staff load up on that stuff.

[Spaceman3750]

My basic encampment I didn't even know where to find a soda. Energy drinks hadn't appeared yet, at least not in force (2006). The big thing was to get Kool-Aid (sugar free probably) but that was only an option once you drank a full glass of water. The water at that place stained my hydration hose green so you can imagine how eager we were to drink it...

NESA is pretty much the same way (soft drink wise), the only place to get anything carbonated/caffeinated is to bring it with (nobody does, at least in GSAR) or go to the PX, which nobody has time for once the session starts.

WIWAC someone should probably have banned Axe, in the concentrations teenage boys applied it at the time I'm pretty sure we killed a few brain cells (has that actually changed?).

[MajorM]

I reset my kids' summer sleep schedules to allow them to stay up one hour later than the school year and sleep in one hour later.  They think I've left the reservation . "But my friends stay up til whenever!"

Well... They probably don't want to live here then

[Garibaldi]

WIWAC, anything but water was forbidden. At encampment, we could have a glass of OJ or apple juice with breakfast, no milk, due to the old "it'll curdle in your stomach during the heat of the day and we don't want you to get sick" wive's tale. No soda whatsoever. Any cadet caught trying to sneak a Coke would be severely punished, not to mention having said Coke taken away and drank in front of him by a staff member. On FTXs we could have a soda...with our evening meal. After a full day of it sloshing around in the back of a truck and in your pack, it was barely drinkable. We did drink Gatorade, but 99% of the time it was good old DiHydroxide.

[LSThiker]

good old DiHydroxide.

Actually, dihydroxide would be bad for you.  That is a compound that contains two OH- groups.  What you are looking for is the IUPAC name oxidane.  Or if you would like dihydrogen monoxide, hydrogen oxide, dihydrogen oxide, or hydrogen hydroxide. 

[Garibaldi]

good old DiHydroxide.

Actually, dihydroxide would be bad for you.  That is a compound that contains two OH- groups.  What you are looking for is the IUPAC name oxidane.  Or if you would like dihydrogen monoxide, hydrogen oxide, dihydrogen oxide, or hydrogen hydroxide.

That's what it was. I saw an internet joke about "don't drink hydrogen oxide!"