OKWG Cadets at Tomb of Unknown replica

[Eclipse]

http://www.newson6.com/story/25611105/green-country-honors-veterans-never-forget

So to start, these cadets look very sharp, clearly practiced this a long time and took the duties seriously.
There's no arguing that...

..however...

...if you will note in the attached screen shots, or the videos at the link above, they are clearly using real bayonets on what appear to
be accurate replicas, or more likely demilled, M14s.

The fact that they were allowed to have them at all is an issue, but worse, this passed through at least two PAOs -
whomever submitted the story to NHQ, and whomever posted it at NHQ - not to mention the local leaders and
anyone else involved in planning the activity.

In the inspection video, I cringed every time the blade whizzed past their faces.  One slip and
either of these cadets is injured, perhaps permanently, and they are not, after all, "highly trained
Honor Guardsman" even if they do look sharp and are a cut above their peers.

This could well be a post in "Safety" instead of "Cadet Programs". Imagine the 78 on this.

The regulations are not ambiguous, and in fact on the KB the relevent text is in bold red:
http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/531/kw/bayonet

CHAPTER 3 – CIVIL AIR PATROL HONOR GUARD UNIFORM
3-1. General. This chapter prescribes the standardized uniform worn by Civil Air Patrol Honor Guards. This uniform is approved for wear during Honor Guard duties and performances only. National Cadet Competition Drill Teams, Color Guards or other CAP special teams will not wear this uniform. The Honor Guard Uniform consists of the service dress uniform coat with epaulets and slacks/trousers, male service cap with cadet officer cap device, white ascot with Honor Guard patch, metallic silver shoulder cord, white pistol belt, white gloves, and a brown non-operating parade rifle with white leather sling. Either the old or new style of service dress may be worn; however, all members of an Honor Guard should be in the same style. Bayonets, swords, or sabers will not be used under any circumstances. This uniform is authorized for year-round wear. The Colors Element flag bearers will wear white flag slings instead of white pistol belts. The guards will wear pistol belts. See Table 3-1 for specific uniform requirements.

Table 3-1. Civil Air Patrol Honor Guard Uniform
Parade Rifle
Brown with white leather sling, molded polystyrene, and non-operating. Wood rifles will break during the various rifle movements. BAYONETS WILL NOT BE USED.

There was absolutely no reason to use those bayonets - the cadets could have performed their duties just as well without them,
but more importantly it should concern everyone that those involved were either ignorant of, or disregarded the clear regulations in
this regard, and further those involved with posting the story, up to the national level, are as well. That or we are going back to the
olde days of posting cool pictures with disclaimers that they violate regulations.

There is also the smaller issue, as indicated by a couple of commenters, about them wearing what appears to be a Tomb Soldiers Badge,
or similar, the wear of which is also expressly prohibited by 39-1.

[Garibaldi]

I wonder if NHQ or their region will get hold of this...

[Eclipse]

I wonder if NHQ or their region will get hold of this...

NHQ already has it - it was posted on the RSS feed from NHQ, that's where I saw it.

[Garibaldi]

I wonder if NHQ or their region will get hold of this...

NHQ already has it - it was posted on the RSS feed from NHQ, that's where I saw it.

Oh joy...well, there are 2 outcomes. Either they prosecute, or they just won't care.

[THRAWN]

I wonder if NHQ or their region will get hold of this...

NHQ already has it - it was posted on the RSS feed from NHQ, that's where I saw it.

Oh joy...well, there are 2 outcomes. Either they prosecute, or they just won't care.

Most likely not care because they are just as ignorant of the rules as the offenders. Didnt Stonewall bring up the wear of the Honor Guard badge a few...maybe many...years ago. I would be interested to hear his take on this. Its sad really. Could have been something really worthwhile. This is what planning in a vacuum gets you....

[SilentPhantom]

It's sad to see that a regulation that's so easy to follow was defied so openly. Though, the cadets obviously put a lot of time and effort into this, and their preformance was incredible. But still, regs are regs.

[sandite190]

It is a reenactment of the guard in Arlington. They're using demilled m1 garands.

[Brad]

From what I heard NHQ granted them a special waiver.

[PA Guy]

Only problem is the OK/CC refuses to show it to anyone. On FB he wrote in a rather bold statement the he didn't owe anyone anything so wasn't going to  publish it.

This will simply be allowed to blow over and then it will be business as usual.

[a2capt]

See, if there is a waiver, I would think that NHQ would have even said in a by-line.. "this isn't condoned, and special permission was granted .. "  Because you know people are going to question it. Despite all the intentions, it's almost far simpler to just not go there.

[lordmonar]

Only problem is the OK/CC refuses to show it to anyone. On FB he wrote in a rather bold statement the he didn't owe anyone anything so wasn't going to  publish it.

This will simply be allowed to blow over and then it will be business as usual.

And that is in fact true.  The OKWG CC does not answer to any of us.....if we doubt his word...then we contact the region commander and let them handle it.

[Ed Bos]

The OKWG CC does not answer to any of us.....if we doubt his word...then we contact the region commander and let them handle it.

I concur, Col Cavett doesn't need to show or explain to the internet any justification for how his Wing's program is run.

CHAPTER 3 – CIVIL AIR PATROL HONOR GUARD UNIFORM
3-1. General. This chapter prescribes the standardized uniform worn by Civil Air Patrol Honor Guards. This uniform is approved for wear during Honor Guard duties and performances only. National Cadet Competition Drill Teams, Color Guards or other CAP special teams will not wear this uniform. The Honor Guard Uniform consists of the service dress uniform coat with epaulets and slacks/trousers, male service cap with cadet officer cap device, white ascot with Honor Guard patch, metallic silver shoulder cord, white pistol belt, white gloves, and a brown non-operating parade rifle with white leather sling.

Eclipse, the uniform regulation regarding the Honor Guard uniform is specific to the Honor Guard uniform. No Ascot, so it must be one of those other "special teams" that the chapter doesn't apply to.

It's a lot of getting riled up about Cadets doing a good thing, and doing it well. Your interpretation of the regulation is not a problem for the OKWG, who has done this for years, done it well, and done it with the same safety guidance as the rest of the organization.

Now, a chapter of the uniform manual only applying to one activity is stupid... Why would the uniform be different for a specific activity and not the same for everyone.... I'm looking at you, NESA Mission Aircrew School... 

[Майор Хаткевич]

The uniform issue aside...before they used to do this with Base HG badges I believe. The bayonets take the cake. W/e. The few kids I spoke to who were involved wiwac left a worse impression than anyone overblown ranger I've ever seen.

[Eclipse]

Eclipse, the uniform regulation regarding the Honor Guard uniform is specific to the Honor Guard uniform. No Ascot, so it must be one of those other "special teams" that the chapter doesn't apply to.

There's no question the OK/CC owes the internet nothing, that doesn't necessarily change the court of public opinion, or make this a good idea.

If you're going to try and make the argument that bayonets are only prohibited, you know in big bold red letters, for the Honor Guard uniform,
and perfectly fine under any other circumstances, that's pretty ridiculous.

I was also wondering why cadets involved in what is clearly an HG "thing" weren't in the full and proper HG uniform to start with. How much more
HG are you going to get then simulating the Tomb of the Unknowns?

[Майор Хаткевич]

Based on the comments on the articles, they seem to get plenty of bad press for "simulating" a tad too hard with those badges. I tend to agree.

[Ed Bos]

Eclipse, the uniform regulation regarding the Honor Guard uniform is specific to the Honor Guard uniform. No Ascot, so it must be one of those other "special teams" that the chapter doesn't apply to.

There's no question the OK/CC owes the internet nothing, that doesn't necessarily change the court of public opinion, or make this a good idea.

If you're going to try and make the argument that bayonets are only prohibited, you know in big bold red letters, for the Honor Guard uniform,
and perfectly fine under any other circumstances, that's pretty ridiculous.

I was also wondering why cadets involved in what is clearly an HG "thing" weren't in the full and proper HG uniform to start with. How much more
HG are you going to get then simulating the Tomb of the Unknowns?

We let cadets do plenty of activities where they may be hurt. We train, we mentor, we do ORM, and then we let them have sharp things. That's part of the gig.

[Eclipse]

Discussed back in 2010 (no pointy things necessary):
http://s774.photobucket.com/user/EdmondCAP002/slideshow/?albumview=slideshow

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=10685.msg195238#msg195238

Robert-- My understanding is that when the Tomb Guards agreed to it, they wanted to make sure that it is as true a re-enactment as possible to preserve the authenticity and traditions. Obviously, we can't wear an Army uniform and be participating in a CAP activity, this was the closest they could get these cadets. After the ceremony the badges are returned to the squadron and locked up until the following year. As far as buying them, I've found several for sale on ebay. They could be reproductions, but they look pretty authentic.

Major-- Yes, Civil Air Patrol Starbase Composite Squadron has NHQ, DoD, US Army, 3rd Army Regiment and Congressional approval to perform the ceremony. These cadets go to DC to train with the Honor Guard every year several months ahead of Memorial Day and work 3 days a week for 3-4 hours a day, at least 2 months before, they didn't just try to re-create this ceremony from watching a YouTube video. As for the badge, my understanding is that the US Army gave them the green light to wear it for the re-enactment ONLY, these cadets do not wear this badge year round. And as I said before, this was because the Army wanted to preserve the authenticity and traditions of the ceremonies. These aren't my cadets and this is only what I've been told. It could open a can of worms, but we're not splitting atoms here, we're simply talking about a badge that's been authorized for wear at one event, once per year.

Honestly, I still find it hard to believe this is end-to-end approved, honor or not, the HG badge is second only to the Astronaut
badge in the number of awards, that doesn't sound like something to trifle with.

So with that said, and then assuming this is as special a situation as it is purported to be, I'll take the
opposite tac to say that NHQ should be making a lot more of this then they are - instead of burying
the link as an also-ran with a bunch of other random Memorial Day stories, it should be a feature article,
including the information regarding what must have taken a literal "Act of Congress" to make happen,
and the caveats about the special approval and training in DC to be allowed to work with the bayonet which
would normally be prohibited.

[a2capt]

I kinda get the impression that the vetting for that feed was done with an "oh, that's nice.. " and whoever did it didn't really pay that close attention to it. Click, Approve, next. Done. It's Beer-thirty time, time to go home!

[Майор Хаткевич]

^+1.

[HGjunkie]

Whoever is running it, they're probably the most arrogant people in CAP judging by the facebook thread which unraveled after this came out. It's sad that such a performance would be overshadowed by the blatant uniform violations, but the face they were arguing and being condescending towards AD military types about it was over the line.

[a2capt]

Did the FB thread vanish? It's being elusive to locate..

[lordmonar]

Whoever is running it, they're probably the most arrogant people in CAP judging by the facebook thread which unraveled after this came out. It's sad that such a performance would be overshadowed by the blatant uniform violations, but the face they were arguing and being condescending towards AD military types about it was over the line.

Not seeing the FB thread.....but just to play devil's advocate......imagine you pull off a demonstration of drill and ceremony that, for the little bit I did see, was very impressive....and then instead of anyone saying "good job", "That was cool" or anything positive you get "Why the hell is that cadet wearing full size medals?!"  "How dare you wear the Tomb Guard Badge!" etc, et al.

Now....I'm not saying they should be wearing those things.......I'm just saying that we sometimes attack something way out or proportion to the violation.   

So it is not unreasonable to think that the officers involved may get defensive and they may come across as arrogant.

This happens all the time here on CT (I know I'm guilty of it, on both the attack side and the defensive side).

As I suggested before.....this is a chain of command issue.   If you got problems with it....then report it to the appropriate level and be done with it.

OKWG  CC says he's got a waiver.....good enough for me.  Region and National can take care of it if that is not true.  Beyond that we are just trashing a bunch of cadets who put on a pretty impressive display.  Looked sharp in their uniforms (violations and all).

[/rant]

[Майор Хаткевич]

The Cadet Oath
I pledge that I will serve faithfully in the Civil Air Patrol Cadet Program, and that I will attend meetings regularly, participate actively in unit activities, obey my officers, wear my uniform properly, and advance my education and training rapidly to prepare myself to be of service to my community, state, and nation.

Don't even need to "bust out" the regs. What would have been lost, had they done this in proper CAP uniform? By the way, the pictures show them standing with feet closed = Honor Guard drill. Semantics sure. We have an Honor Guard Uniform, they could have worn it. 

[NIN]

Did the FB thread vanish? It's being elusive to locate..

A black van rolled up and ....

[lordmonar]

Not really the issue.

Sure nothing would be lost if they just did it with normal CAP uniform....or even the Honor Guard Uniform. 

On the other hand.....what is lost by what they did?

No really......what is the REAL problem as presented?

Lots of special teams wear uniforms that are not in the regs.....I submit to you the real tomb guards break the normal army uniform regs.....what would be lost if they just wore their normal uniforms?

Making command decisions is part of being a commander....you or I may disagree with what a commander decides....but it is not up to us if that is a "good decision" or not....it is up the commander's chain of command.

So....again....if anyone has a problem...then contact the commander's chain of command and voice your concerns.

[SilentPhantom]

Not really the issue.

Sure nothing would be lost if they just did it with normal CAP uniform....or even the Honor Guard Uniform. 

On the other hand.....what is lost by what they did?

No really......what is the REAL problem as presented?

Lots of special teams wear uniforms that are not in the regs.....I submit to you the real tomb guards break the normal army uniform regs.....what would be lost if they just wore their normal uniforms?

Making command decisions is part of being a commander....you or I may disagree with what a commander decides....but it is not up to us if that is a "good decision" or not....it is up the commander's chain of command.

So....again....if anyone has a problem...then contact the commander's chain of command and voice your concerns.

^+1

[Panzerbjorn]

My presumption is that these cadets had to jump through a lot of hoops in order to do this.  So my question is this....

Does anyone know if the powers that granted permission to CAP to perform this ceremony put on any caveats such as "You will use M1s with bayonets, you will wear HG badges, etc.", as a condition of approval being given to perform this ceremony?

If NHQ doesn't have a problem with it, and the OKWG CC doesn't have a problem with it, it would seem to me that that would be the end of the issue.

[Alaric]

The OKWG CC does not answer to any of us.....if we doubt his word...then we contact the region commander and let them handle it.

I concur, Col Cavett doesn't need to show or explain to the internet any justification for how his Wing's program is run.

CHAPTER 3 – CIVIL AIR PATROL HONOR GUARD UNIFORM
3-1. General. This chapter prescribes the standardized uniform worn by Civil Air Patrol Honor Guards. This uniform is approved for wear during Honor Guard duties and performances only. National Cadet Competition Drill Teams, Color Guards or other CAP special teams will not wear this uniform. The Honor Guard Uniform consists of the service dress uniform coat with epaulets and slacks/trousers, male service cap with cadet officer cap device, white ascot with Honor Guard patch, metallic silver shoulder cord, white pistol belt, white gloves, and a brown non-operating parade rifle with white leather sling.

Eclipse, the uniform regulation regarding the Honor Guard uniform is specific to the Honor Guard uniform. No Ascot, so it must be one of those other "special teams" that the chapter doesn't apply to.

It's a lot of getting riled up about Cadets doing a good thing, and doing it well. Your interpretation of the regulation is not a problem for the OKWG, who has done this for years, done it well, and done it with the same safety guidance as the rest of the organization.

Now, a chapter of the uniform manual only applying to one activity is stupid... Why would the uniform be different for a specific activity and not the same for everyone.... I'm looking at you, NESA Mission Aircrew School... 

Gotta love the T-shirt and Khaki shorts combination

NESA MAS Student 2010, 2013
NESA MAS Staff 2011, 2012