Cadet PT Mandatory ??

[PilotMan]

Hi all.

Had a situation where a DCC ordered a cadet to run during PT.  Cadet refused and DCC threatened him with insubordination. 

SO.........  Is this correct?  Seems a bit overkill in my opinion. 

Thanks All and God Bless CAP!! :clap:

[Garibaldi]

Hi all.

Had a situation where a DCC ordered a cadet to run during PT.  Cadet refused and DCC threatened him with insubordination. 

SO.........  Is this correct?  Seems a bit overkill in my opinion. 

Thanks All and God Bless CAP!! :clap:

DCC...for that matter, any SM, cannot "order" cadets or even other seniors to do anything.

Why did the DCC deem it necessary to "order" the cadet to run anyway? Was it required as part of PT? Were the other cadets running and he was standing around?

Insubordination in a volunteer organization is a dicey charge.

Overkill? Maybe. Hazing? Need more info. Correct? No. Chain of command runs both ways.

[Eclipse]

It doesn't have to be overkill or hazing if it was done for punitive reasons - that's against a bright line reg.

However if the run was a unit activity and the cadet refused without justification, or in a disrespectful way,
he may well be deserving of disciplinary action.

[68w20]

Short answer, yes, it's mandatory.  If he wants to pass the CPFT and promote then he needs to attempt all portions of the test and pass at least one of the "runs" and two other events.  It's something else entirely if he has a doctor's note exempting him or simply opts out of the PT test. 

Based on what you saw, what constitutes an "order"?

[Ned]

DCC...for that matter, any SM, cannot "order" cadets or even other seniors to do anything.

Seriously?  Why do you say that?

Don't cadets swear to "obey my officers" as part of the Cadet Oath?

It doesn't make much sense to swear to obey officers if the officers cannot issue orders that require obedience.

What am I missing?

[Brad]

Need more info. What do you mean by "refused to run?" Refused to run and chose to walk instead, or refused to run and participate in the PT at all?

Either way, it's simply a matter between the cadet and what the PT standards require as a time. In the latter instance though, it's far more certain that the cadet won't pass and so won't promote.

[coudano]

Is this part of the cadet physical fitness test?

Part of warm-up for it?
Part of squadron PT training (other than the test?)

Generally speaking, my policy is that everyone participates.  Nobody gets to go sulk out in the corner.
Participate or go home.
That goes for everything, not just PT.

[PilotMan]

He didn't need PT as he had already had satisfied it for his next promotion.

Short answer, yes, it's mandatory.  If he wants to pass the CPFT and promote then he needs to attempt all portions of the test and pass at least one of the "runs" and two other events.  It's something else entirely if he has a doctor's note exempting him or simply opts out of the PT test. 

Based on what you saw, what constitutes an "order"?

[Майор Хаткевич]

He didn't need PT as he had already had satisfied it for his next promotion.

Short answer, yes, it's mandatory.  If he wants to pass the CPFT and promote then he needs to attempt all portions of the test and pass at least one of the "runs" and two other events.  It's something else entirely if he has a doctor's note exempting him or simply opts out of the PT test. 

Based on what you saw, what constitutes an "order"?

If the unit is doing PT, EVERYONE does it. Don't matter if he passed it a YEAR ago, and didn't bother to promote, or will this month.

[jimmydeanno]

In all the units that I've run, I've had to overcome the "I already passed my PT, I'm sitting this one out" attitude.  PT is on the schedule, so unless you broke your knee, you better be running.  Everyone could use more practice and it sets a better example to the inflight cadets. 

I don't care if you already passed the test.  If you're there, you participate in the scheduled events.  Period.  That's an order.

[PilotMan]

The cadet had satisfied his PT requirement for his next promotion already.   Maybe he was having a bad day, was tired, already had sports that day at school?  He was told however that because he was a senior cadet he should run to show a good example. 

Need more info. What do you mean by "refused to run?" Refused to run and chose to walk instead, or refused to run and participate in the PT at all?

Either way, it's simply a matter between the cadet and what the PT standards require as a time. In the latter instance though, it's far more certain that the cadet won't pass and so won't promote.

[FlyTiger77]

He was told however that because he was a senior cadet he should run to show a good example. 

Unless someone could show me a CAP regulation specifically prohibiting it, I would support the commander on this. As a squadron commander, I would run with the unit and I certainly didn't need it (for promotion, that is!).

[abdsp51]

Wow.  I have had cadets quit doing pt because of one thing or another but I have yet to have a cadet refuse to do pt for any reason.  Shoot at my last unit we met on Mon nights and I would have pt  that Mon morning and still be out doing PT with them that night. 

[68w20]

The cadet had satisfied his PT requirement for his next promotion already.   Maybe he was having a bad day, was tired, already had sports that day at school?  He was told however that because he was a senior cadet he should run to show a good example. 

Need more info. What do you mean by "refused to run?" Refused to run and chose to walk instead, or refused to run and participate in the PT at all?

Either way, it's simply a matter between the cadet and what the PT standards require as a time. In the latter instance though, it's far more certain that the cadet won't pass and so won't promote.

I would still tend to side with the CDC on this, especially if the Cadet is in a staff position.  Part of our goal as Cadet Programs officers is to keep Cadets engaged while we have them.  Having one Cadet off on their own because they just don't wanna isn't conducive to that objective.  PT was on the schedule, and it's not unreasonable to expect him to participate actively in unit activities. 

[PilotMan]

The cadet had satisfied his PT requirement for his next promotion already.   Maybe he was having a bad day, was tired, already had sports that day at school?  He was told however that because he was a senior cadet he should run to show a good example. 

Need more info. What do you mean by "refused to run?" Refused to run and chose to walk instead, or refused to run and participate in the PT at all?

Either way, it's simply a matter between the cadet and what the PT standards require as a time. In the latter instance though, it's far more certain that the cadet won't pass and so won't promote.

I would still tend to side with the CDC on this, especially if the Cadet is in a staff position.  Part of our goal as Cadet Programs officers is to keep Cadets engaged while we have them.  Having one Cadet off on their own because they just don't wanna isn't conducive to that objective.  PT was on the schedule, and it's not unreasonable to expect him to participate actively in unit activities.

Would tend to agree...... But to push the point till the cadet now leaves CAP?     Not conducive for CAP or the Cadet I say.  Noted maybe and brought up during his next promotion?

[68w20]

The cadet had satisfied his PT requirement for his next promotion already.   Maybe he was having a bad day, was tired, already had sports that day at school?  He was told however that because he was a senior cadet he should run to show a good example. 

Need more info. What do you mean by "refused to run?" Refused to run and chose to walk instead, or refused to run and participate in the PT at all?

Either way, it's simply a matter between the cadet and what the PT standards require as a time. In the latter instance though, it's far more certain that the cadet won't pass and so won't promote.

I would still tend to side with the CDC on this, especially if the Cadet is in a staff position.  Part of our goal as Cadet Programs officers is to keep Cadets engaged while we have them.  Having one Cadet off on their own because they just don't wanna isn't conducive to that objective.  PT was on the schedule, and it's not unreasonable to expect him to participate actively in unit activities.

Would tend to agree...... But to push the point till the cadet now leaves CAP?     Not conducive for CAP or the Cadet I say.  Noted maybe and brought up during his next promotion?

Did the Cadet say that he was going to leave CAP as a result of this? 

[jimmydeanno]

I love how threads like this go.

1) The seniors are so horrible, they accused my fellow cadet (in reality it's probably me) of insubordination because he didn't do the CPFT even though he already passed it.  Seniors can't do that!

- Actually they can, because they are in charge.

2) But the cadet was really tired.  And what if the moon was in retrograde!

more discussion

3) But the cadet is going to quit CAP because of it.

and the story just gets more and more exaggerated and more "facts" come to light, so that the OP can feel better about their OP when they get told how wrong they are about their position...

[a2capt]

Our stance is "PT is not a once a month, let alone once a week deal", you'll not improve or even possibly maintain your ability to pass those things as you get older and the requirements increase.

Lead by example, participate. If PT is on the schedule, you're doing it unless you're broken in some way that precludes the activity.

We've yet to have resistance when it's brought up that way, to the few that have tried the "I've already completed it for promotion".

[Майор Хаткевич]

If the cadet quits over this, then he's being a hotheaded teenager. Unless there is a legitimate reason not to, "I already have the credit" goes back to the check box mentality. Good on the CDC.

[PilotMan]

I love how threads like this go.

1) The seniors are so horrible, they accused my fellow cadet (in reality it's probably me) of insubordination because he didn't do the CPFT even though he already passed it.  Seniors can't do that!

- Actually they can, because they are in charge.

2) But the cadet was really tired.  And what if the moon was in retrograde!

more discussion

3) But the cadet is going to quit CAP because of it.

and the story just gets more and more exaggerated and more "facts" come to light, so that the OP can feel better about their OP when they get told how wrong they are about their position...

No worries.... Its not you :clap: 

The cadet program is to make good human beings.   If we treat them like step children and demand that they do things... we loose them.  What a silly thing to loose them over in my opinion.  Now.... the situation should be noted and brought up at a less volatile time.  Consideration of this issue during for advancement for instance.