Cadet hazing

[CAPAviator]

Eclipse, point well taken. But when 4 cadets independently tell stories of similar nature and when other adults observe unusual behavior, you must take it seriously.

The DCC was demoted overnight, yet it was advertised as a stepping down after 6 years of service. That does not happen for no reason. A DCC does not leave his cadets overnight, coincidentally right after allegations of abuse, leaving nobody to take over, which was the case. Then struggle to regain his title.

[CAPAviator]

"Daniel L.", thanks for your input. I don't know that I seek an solution to the problem as much as I seek opinion. Only through this forum can this topic be understood.

As for asking why these cadets tolerate the abuse, read more about "Stockholm Syndrome", this term was actually brought up by the units commander. He believes the cadets suffer this. Now you may not tolerate abuse, but some people do. Children are abused all the time and never say a word. The cadet that wrote the email above actually told his mother. It was the mother that was so afraid of the DCC, she (a CAP member herself), never told anyone. Until she met me. Then she somehow felt comfortable talking to me about it. Then her son went in his own and reported it. Then another cadet came to me after hearing through the gossip line that I helped, I met with him and his mother. He had been abused also and never told his mother. She was pissed!!

Nothing gets fixed if ignored. These things need to be talked about. I need to learn from others in this forum, through discussion. It may not fix the problem, but it helps knowing other people care.

I think stockholm syndrome is being used wrong the DCC isn't holding the cadets hostage (I hope) they go home at night. They have a chance to get out.. The squadrons meetings are what 2 hours a week. SS builds up during like long times with a captor when your start believing his rhetoric.. If this were the case the cadet would need some serious persuasion to leave. Although I truly believe its not SS. 

Now with that being said you word your posts like the majority of cap members MUST believe that hazing is good. Frankly we don't... We work to prevent hazing all the time.. I have taken many a class on how to prevent it and in my 2 years have never seen it happen

Stockholm Syndrome does not only refer to hostage situations. It's a way to discribe how a person can come to believe the abuser is not a bad person and actually defend them.

[Daniel]

"Daniel L.", thanks for your input. I don't know that I seek an solution to the problem as much as I seek opinion. Only through this forum can this topic be understood.

As for asking why these cadets tolerate the abuse, read more about "Stockholm Syndrome", this term was actually brought up by the units commander. He believes the cadets suffer this. Now you may not tolerate abuse, but some people do. Children are abused all the time and never say a word. The cadet that wrote the email above actually told his mother. It was the mother that was so afraid of the DCC, she (a CAP member herself), never told anyone. Until she met me. Then she somehow felt comfortable talking to me about it. Then her son went in his own and reported it. Then another cadet came to me after hearing through the gossip line that I helped, I met with him and his mother. He had been abused also and never told his mother. She was pissed!!

Nothing gets fixed if ignored. These things need to be talked about. I need to learn from others in this forum, through discussion. It may not fix the problem, but it helps knowing other people care.

I think stockholm syndrome is being used wrong the DCC isn't holding the cadets hostage (I hope) they go home at night. They have a chance to get out.. The squadrons meetings are what 2 hours a week. SS builds up during like long times with a captor when your start believing his rhetoric.. If this were the case the cadet would need some serious persuasion to leave. Although I truly believe its not SS. 

Now with that being said you word your posts like the majority of cap members MUST believe that hazing is good. Frankly we don't... We work to prevent hazing all the time.. I have taken many a class on how to prevent it and in my 2 years have never seen it happen

Stockholm Syndrome does not only refer to hostage situations. It's a way to discribe how a person can come to believe the abuser is not a bad person and actually defend them.

"In psychology, Stockholm Syndrome is a term used to describe a real paradoxical psychological phenomenon wherein hostages express empathy and have positive feelings towards their captors, sometimes to the point of defending them. These feelings are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims, who essentially mistake a lack of abuse from their captors for an act of kindness."
-- Wikipedia

[Extremepredjudice]

"Daniel L.", thanks for your input. I don't know that I seek an solution to the problem as much as I seek opinion. Only through this forum can this topic be understood.

As for asking why these cadets tolerate the abuse, read more about "Stockholm Syndrome", this term was actually brought up by the units commander. He believes the cadets suffer this. Now you may not tolerate abuse, but some people do. Children are abused all the time and never say a word. The cadet that wrote the email above actually told his mother. It was the mother that was so afraid of the DCC, she (a CAP member herself), never told anyone. Until she met me. Then she somehow felt comfortable talking to me about it. Then her son went in his own and reported it. Then another cadet came to me after hearing through the gossip line that I helped, I met with him and his mother. He had been abused also and never told his mother. She was pissed!!

Nothing gets fixed if ignored. These things need to be talked about. I need to learn from others in this forum, through discussion. It may not fix the problem, but it helps knowing other people care.

I think stockholm syndrome is being used wrong the DCC isn't holding the cadets hostage (I hope) they go home at night. They have a chance to get out.. The squadrons meetings are what 2 hours a week. SS builds up during like long times with a captor when your start believing his rhetoric.. If this were the case the cadet would need some serious persuasion to leave. Although I truly believe its not SS. 

Now with that being said you word your posts like the majority of cap members MUST believe that hazing is good. Frankly we don't... We work to prevent hazing all the time.. I have taken many a class on how to prevent it and in my 2 years have never seen it happen

Stockholm Syndrome does not only refer to hostage situations. It's a way to discribe how a person can come to believe the abuser is not a bad person and actually defend them.

"In psychology, Stockholm Syndrome is a term used to describe a real paradoxical psychological phenomenon wherein hostages express empathy and have positive feelings towards their captors, sometimes to the point of defending them. These feelings are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims, who essentially mistake a lack of abuse from their captors for an act of kindness."
-- Wikipedia

Tch! wikipedia?

SS has been expanded in recent years to include other things

[Daniel]

Nein my friend

http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforcement-bulletin/2007-pdfs/july07leb.pdf/at_download/file

which is the citation explains.

SS is still the same..

[Extremepredjudice]

The FBI is definitely a psychological institution that studies this stuff.

But, sir, if you want to debate this, let's not spam up the thread. :angel: Send me a PM if you want to debate it.


Oh and congratz on C/Captain.

[Daniel]

The FBI is definitely a psychological institution that studies this stuff.

But, sir, if you want to debate this, let's not spam up the thread. :angel: Send me a PM if you want to debate it.


Oh and congratz on C/Captain.

I dont wish to debate anything I'm just saying the cadets in the unit in question could not have developed Stockholm syndrome.
which is relevent to this topic.

Oh and thanks

[a2capt]

... everyone is happy until someone doesn't get the job they want, and then overnight
normal activity becomes "abuse".

s/job/position/promotion/form signed, whatever. Really screws up people's lives, and in some cases, the whole unit, and others outside of it, just because you have a spoiled brat that didn't get what they want.  If it really is that bad, who'd hang around for two years, or more?

You seemed to be gloating all kinds of glee about Orientation Flights not too long ago.. only now to be pissing on the whole unit.

Kinda makes one wonder...

[CAPAviator]

... everyone is happy until someone doesn't get the job they want, and then overnight
normal activity becomes "abuse".

s/job/position/promotion/form signed, whatever. Really screws up people's lives, and in some cases, the whole unit, and others outside of it, just because you have a spoiled brat that didn't get what they want.  If it really is that bad, who'd hang around for two years, or more?

You seemed to be gloating all kinds of glee about Orientation Flights not too long ago.. only now to be pissing on the whole unit.

Kinda makes one wonder...

Wonder all you want. It's small minds like yours that allow these things to occur unchanged. You feel the need to discredit what came to the table after my GLEE event because at one time in my term at CAP I was actually having fun. Yes, I was not abused, but the facts can't be changed, when one child has nightmares and another has panic attacks, something needs to be fixed.

BTW, did ya like the video ;-). That's what CAP is supposed to be about!!!

[coudano]

Listen, Curt LaFond and the crew at NHQ/CP are the wrong venue to complain to.
Situations like this are a problem for the command structure, and the nhq cp shop is not anywhere in the chain of command.

I'd also like to point out that the General herself (Gen Courter), isn't the national commander anymore,
though she probably was at the time that these complaints arose.



No, all of CAP is not like this.
MOST of CAP is not like this.
Are there times and places where it goes on, unfortunately yes.
And sometimes it takes unfortunately long to correct.


The correct course of action is to raise the concern to the squadron commander immediately.
Or the next higher commander (group/wing commander)
This kicks off an automatic chain of notifications including wing commander, wing legal, region commander.

That's one avenue.

Another avenue is to file an official complaint with the IG.


If the unit, group, and wing commander failed to follow any regulations in processing your complaints, then THAT constitutes ANOTHER grounds for reporting to the next highe commander, or filing an IG complaint.


Can you show the complaint process properly implemented by the complaining parties to each of the above?
Can you provide the official response from each above official channel for complaint/redress?



If sufficient evidence exists to back up the claims, this senior member could be charged with assault and battery.



If all of that truly fails, quite honestly, if I were a parent of a cadet in that unit,
i'd pull my kid out of the squadron immediately,
and I would organize a meeting of all the other parents of cadets in the squadron
to discuss doing the same thing.

[Extremepredjudice]

... everyone is happy until someone doesn't get the job they want, and then overnight
normal activity becomes "abuse".

s/job/position/promotion/form signed, whatever. Really screws up people's lives, and in some cases, the whole unit, and others outside of it, just because you have a spoiled brat that didn't get what they want.  If it really is that bad, who'd hang around for two years, or more?

You seemed to be gloating all kinds of glee about Orientation Flights not too long ago.. only now to be pissing on the whole unit.

Kinda makes one wonder...

Wonder all you want. It's small minds like yours that allow these things to occur unchanged. You feel the need to discredit what came to the table after my GLEE event because at one time in my term at CAP I was actually having fun. Yes, I was not abused, but the facts can't be changed, when one child has nightmares and another has panic attacks, something needs to be fixed.

BTW, did ya like the video ;-). That's what CAP is supposed to be about!!!

Like stated before, maybe local Law enforcement needs to come say hi?

Contacting national immediately isn't always the best thing, sometimes maybe you need to start at the local level? Like I said, wing or groups (if applicable)


P.S. where is the squadron commander in this? He could fix things....
Daniel I sent you a PM. It was pretty hastily prepared, but I found a couple reputable sources. I removed three others because they weren't up to par for a research paper.

[CATS]

and if the squadron commander, wing IG and wing commander aren't interested in fixing things, as unbelievable as that may seem.  This is why I went to national.

[coudano]

and if the squadron commander, wing IG and wing commander aren't interested in fixing things, as unbelievable as that may seem.  This is why I went to national.

Let me rephrase the questions and see if you can answer them directly, and provide evidence to go along with your answers...


Can you show the complaint process properly implemented by the complaining parties to each of the above?
Can you provide the official response from each above official channel for complaint/redress?

[CAPAviator]

Listen, Curt LaFond and the crew at NHQ/CP are the wrong venue to complain to.
Situations like this are a problem for the command structure, and the nhq cp shop is not anywhere in the chain of command.

I'd also like to point out that the General herself (Gen Courter), isn't the national commander anymore,
though she probably was at the time that these complaints arose.



No, all of CAP is not like this.
MOST of CAP is not like this.
Are there times and places where it goes on, unfortunately yes.
And sometimes it takes unfortunately long to correct.


The correct course of action is to raise the concern to the squadron commander immediately.
Or the next higher commander (group/wing commander)
This kicks off an automatic chain of notifications including wing commander, wing legal, region commander.

That's one avenue.

Another avenue is to file an official complaint with the IG.


If the unit, group, and wing commander failed to follow any regulations in processing your complaints, then THAT constitutes ANOTHER grounds for reporting to the next highe commander, or filing an IG complaint.


Can you show the complaint process properly implemented by the complaining parties to each of the above?
Can you provide the official response from each above official channel for complaint/redress?



If sufficient evidence exists to back up the claims, this senior member could be charged with assault and battery.



If all of that truly fails, quite honestly, if I were a parent of a cadet in that unit,
i'd pull my kid out of the squadron immediately,
and I would organize a meeting of all the other parents of cadets in the squadron
to discuss doing the same thing.

Thanks!! That is the best advise I've heard thus far!!!

[a2capt]

LOL.. small mind.. because I'm not going to take anything thats given to me without thought. I'm gonna analyze the crud out of it. I've seen the other side of unfounded accusations, as well as well founded ones, and everything in between.

There are certain actions that are supposed to happen immediately if specific types of complaints are filed. There's always the region if you think the Wing is failing it's duty, however, they may defer it back to the level it's supposed to be at, at which point you should note the actions taken and re-file it showing what you believe to be in-appropriate or lack of action taken.

Of course, as mentioned, contact other parents and see what they say. You can get email addresses from eServices, of senior members, parents won't be there if they're not at least some type of member, tough many cadets may be using their parents email address, too.

But by your allegations,  that is really hard to white wash. If you've filed an actual complaint, you are entitled to the outcome of it. Even if they open and shut it right then.  CC the next higher echelon when you ask for the resolution, include copies of what you sent as a reminder.

[Spaceman3750]

parents won't be there if they're not at least some type of member

Under the cadet's contact information parents can set a contact with the "CADET PARENT EMAIL" type and it will show up at the bottom of the email address list.

[Johnny Yuma]

Bumping this...

Ok, I don't know which state this happened in, really don't care.

Anyone who's been in the program longer than 3 years who doesn't drink the NHQ, Inc. FlavorAide knows that the Cadet Protection Program is designed to protect NHQ, Inc., its corporate officers (NB, NEC, BOG) and its employees first and foremost from legal action.

If (and I do mean that, IF) there was a pattern of abuse witnessed by the OP to the extent he claims then in most states a crime has been committed. The question you need to ask yourself is: If I witnessed a crime outside of CAP, would I be reporting it to the law, or would I report it to my Wing Commander? Why then is it then treated differently because all the parties hold a ID card issued to them by a Corporation based out of Alabama?

OP: I would check my state laws to determine if they may have been violated. If you believe they have and victims/witnesses are willing to talk to the law about it then you already know what your civic duty is beyond the CPP notification.

[Eclipse]

If (and I do mean that, IF) there was a pattern of abuse witnessed by the OP to the extent he claims then in most states a crime has been committed. The question you need to ask yourself is: If I witnessed a crime outside of CAP, would I be reporting it to the law, or would I report it to my Wing Commander? Why then is it then treated differently because all the parties hold a ID card issued to them by a Corporation based out of Alabama?

Because that corporation says that if you want to continue to carry that card, you will abide by it's its rules.

This example has no relevance, since CAP has zero involvement with "crimes outside CAP".  Crimes that involve members are not "outside CAP".

The CPP protects everyone in CAP, but first and foremost protects the cadets.

[ol'fido]

Ask Joe Paterno about it.

[Ned]

Gosh, I'd forgotten what a cheerful, upbeat person you are when it comes to CP.

Anyone who's been in the program longer than 3 years who doesn't drink the NHQ, Inc. FlavorAide knows that the Cadet Protection Program is designed to protect NHQ, Inc., its corporate officers (NB, NEC, BOG) and its employees first and foremost from legal action.

Yeah, you keep saying that.  Strong personal opinion noted.  But it is still not true no matter how often you repeat it.

I was there.  I helped write it.  I know what we were thinking.  I see most or all of the complaints and litigation related to CP, including CPP issues.

I daresay the reverse is also true.  You weren't there.  You didn't write it.  You don't know what we were thinking.

But you are certainly entitled to your personal opinion.

If (and I do mean that, IF) there was a pattern of abuse witnessed by the OP to the extent he claims then in most states a crime has been committed.

Although the OP was very vague and mysterious, I don't disagree that in many states a crime could have been committed.  So?

The question you need to ask yourself is: If I witnessed a crime outside of CAP, would I be reporting it to the law, or would I report it to my Wing Commander? Why then is it then treated differently because all the parties hold a ID card issued to them by a Corporation based out of Alabama?

Umm, what? 

Nothing in the 52-10 or 52-16 suggests that a member cannot report a crime.  Indeed, the regulation specifically addresses "mandatory reporters" and notes that they must report as required by law.  IOW, there is certainly nothing wrong with reporting a criminal CPP violation to both your commander and the local authorities.  But you must report every suspected CPP violation as required by the 52-10.