All Stop on High Adventure Activities

[Eclipse]

52-16 is a document specific to cadet activities and training.

Anything regarding senior members is found in other regulations.  I don't read this as applying to Seniors in any way except in regards to their participation in cadet activities.

With that said, an interesting thing was brought to my attention earlier this year - there is no authorization whatsoever for Senior Members
to participate in firearms training of any kind.  The only authorization whatsoever is in regards to cadets.

How many seniors have taken a spot on a firing line right along with their cadets?

[N Harmon]

That does seem to be what the regulation says. CAP members may not use firearms unless they are cadets participating in firearms training that complies with CAPR 52-16. And then, not right now due to the ICL.

That being the case, I have a question for those members who claimed cadets could not get together to play paintball outside of CAP: Would you also say senior members are likewise prohibited from getting together outside of CAP for activities that involve firearms, like hunting for example?

[MICT1362]

maybe they can revamp the firearms training language to include instructors from CMP and 4H.  They also need to update it to the new NRA qualification program. In fact I may send an email to that effect......

As far as dual chartered units, I don't see this as affecting that as the BSA charter is separate and outside of CAP control.

I have already addressed this with a Corporate Officer, but I'm sure that another mention to somebody higher up wont hurt.

How many seniors have taken a spot on a firing line right along with their cadets?

Only as an instructor.  Now there are several very persistant SM's that I know, that think they have a right to shoot as well.



Does anybody have any idea why this ICL was released two days after the new 52-16?  Was this a screw up on NHQ's part?  Was there a screw up at an activity?

I just don't get it...

-Paramedic

[ZigZag911]

The expiration date of the prohibition makes it sound like there is some issue to be discussed by the National Board at their winter meeting before letting this proceed.

Also, water survival training and similar activities constitute mission related requirements, not "High Adventure Activities" (i.e., FUN!)...I seriously doubt anyone intended to hamstring operations with this ICL.

[a2capt]

An ICL with a date??? Wow. Lets see if they actually adhere  to it.

[RiverAux]

Don't discourage them.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I could not imagine that this will take HAA's away at all. People have been griping about CAP being too "prissy" about what cadets can and can't do. For a long time many members have been wanting (especially the cadets) to be able to do more adventurous activities. I have heard them complain that even the boy scouts get to do more than we do. They love the rest of CAP so they don't want to leave it. Finally NHQ has heard the cry and is doing something about it and cadets are exited about getting to do rappelling and all this cool stuff that before, they would never have been allowed to do. If NHQ were to take this temporary pause, and turn it into a permanent one, they would see a whole lot of outrage. I don't think they will do anything more than fine tune the regulation. Don't fear, this will be over before you know it, and I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

[JeffDG]

Also, water survival training and similar activities constitute mission related requirements, not "High Adventure Activities" (i.e., FUN!)...I seriously doubt anyone intended to hamstring operations with this ICL.

Umm...it's specifically mentioned in the ICL:

HAAs include rappelling, obstacle courses, low-ropes courses, water survival courses and similar endeavors.

[A.Member]

52-16 is a document specific to cadet activities and training.

Anything regarding senior members is found in other regulations.  I don't read this as applying to Seniors in any way except in regards to their participation in cadet activities.

With that said, an interesting thing was brought to my attention earlier this year - there is no authorization whatsoever for Senior Members
to participate in firearms training of any kind.  The only authorization whatsoever is in regards to cadets.

How many seniors have taken a spot on a firing line right along with their cadets?

On the same note, has anyone noticed that 900-3 has not been updated since 1986?!  Seems that there is an opportunity there for update and review as well.  For ex., there is a reference to "50-16", which is not a current regulation - I don't know if that was a typo or if that was a precursor to 52-16.   Regardless, the regulation should probably be reviewed an updated.  Seems that there could be some room for a common sense approach to weapons training, even if it has no direct relationship with our missions.

[Eclipse]

I heard back from NHQ, as I didn't ask for permission, I am not going to quote the message here, but SAMT is not affected and
the issue being addressed is providing more specific guidance on HAA's.

[Eclipse]

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/2011_02_03_High_Adventure_Activitie_EC5529EC6670C.pdf

"Effective immediately and through 31 March 2011, all units will refrain from conducting
firearm, paintball, simunition and High Adventure Activities (HAA) as defined in CAPR 52-16,
paragraphs 2-10 and 2-11 (1 February 2011 edition).  HAAs include rappelling, obstacle courses,
low-ropes courses, water survival courses and similar endeavors. "

So...

1 April has come and gone with no comment or clarification.  Does this mean HA's are now authorized again as per the current 52-16 or not?
Was anything changed or addressed with this?  I noticed a story the other day about an HA and remembered they were banned.

[Ned]

[So...

1 April has come and gone with no comment or clarification.  Does this mean HA's are now authorized again as per the current 52-16 or not?

Watch for an update within the next day or so . . .

[ßτε]

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/2011_02_03_High_Adventure_Activitie_EC5529EC6670C.pdf

"Effective immediately and through 31 March 2011, all units will refrain from conducting
firearm, paintball, simunition and High Adventure Activities (HAA) as defined in CAPR 52-16,
paragraphs 2-10 and 2-11 (1 February 2011 edition).  HAAs include rappelling, obstacle courses,
low-ropes courses, water survival courses and similar endeavors. "

So...

1 April has come and gone with no comment or clarification.  Does this mean HA's are now authorized again as per the current 52-16 or not?
Was anything changed or addressed with this?  I noticed a story the other day about an HA and remembered they were banned.

I guess you missed the March 31, 2011 update.

[Eclipse]

I guess you missed the March 31, 2011 update.

I did, although this one expires Wednesday.

Is that when the pamphlet is coming out?

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Hopefully nothing more will come out and we can go about having fun this Summer.

[Major Lord]

If you were a betting man, which would you wager on? NHQ going the way of the bed-wetting, left-handed, Birkenstock wearing sissy  pinko lawyers or the Truth Justice and the American way?

Major Lord

[sneakers]

If you were a betting man, which would you wager on? NHQ going the way of the bed-wetting, left-handed, Birkenstock wearing sissy  pinko lawyers or the Truth Justice and the American way?

Major Lord

In the case of NHQ...    Always air on the side of the "bed-wetting, left-handed, Birkenstock wearing sissy pinko lawyers." You won't be wrong as often as you should then. 

[ßτε]

CAPR 52-16 has been updated. It specifies CAPF 54 to be used for Wing CC approval of HAA.
The ICL has been removed from the list of ICLs.

[davidsinn]

CAPR 52-16 has been updated. It specifies CAPF 54 to be used for Wing CC approval of HAA.
The ICL has been removed from the list of ICLs.

It took three months to come up with that?

[Eclipse]

This document is incomplete, does not properly address the reg, and offers no actual "guidance", it is just a checklist.

There is no accommodation for the Group structure (how is something like this missed?)

Rappelling, for example, is only authorized for DOD/Guard & Fire Departments, yet there is no mention of FD on the document,
yet it explicitly mentioned LEA's (which I guarantee you is going to cause issues where an LEA offers CAP rappelling training).

Why would any non-CPPT approved seniors be allowed to be involved at all?

As Form 31's are required for any HAA, why would there be a question as to if they will be available?

What about cadets over 18?

There is also no lead time specified, which means that "night before" will be common.

And where is the "guidance" promised?