All Stop on High Adventure Activities

[Eclipse]

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/2011_02_03_High_Adventure_Activitie_EC5529EC6670C.pdf

"Effective immediately and through 31 March 2011, all units will refrain from conducting
firearm, paintball, simunition and High Adventure Activities (HAA) as defined in CAPR 52-16,
paragraphs 2-10 and 2-11 (1 February 2011 edition).  HAAs include rappelling, obstacle courses,
low-ropes courses, water survival courses and similar endeavors. "

I would be willing to bet that any number of units saw the sliver of daylight on the word "paintball" and completely missed the
requirement that it be approved by the Wing CC (if not also Group CC).

[MICT1362]

I so badly want to put a large rant on this, but I will make it short and sweet.

DUMB!

-Paramedic

[Flying Pig]

But it doesnt say anything about poker parties! :clap:

[PA Guy]

I think it may be premature to become too upset over this.  The ICL covers a relatively short period of time and has a defined expiration date.  It may be just a chance to fine tune some language, I don't think we will see any major changes in the overall intent of the of the reg.

[Eclipse]

It would be interesting to know why any concerns weren't addressed during the comment period.

[a2capt]

Why do I get the feeling that the draft period was for naught in this case?

I can just imagine it now.. "It says WHAT?!??!"

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I think it may be premature to become too upset over this.  The ICL covers a relatively short period of time and has a defined expiration date.  It may be just a chance to fine tune some language, I don't think we will see any major changes in the overall intent of the of the reg.

I agree. I think this will mainly be a short time so that they can re-define something that got brought up after the draft period was over. I don't think this will bring about any major changes, let alone nixing the entire idea of HAAs.

[Major Lord]

Does this include activities conducted under BSA auspices for dual chartered units? Which units were doing simunition? Really?

Major Lord

[Eclipse]

I sent a note to Mr. LaFond on whether this affects SAMT - the stop only goes to the end of March, but depending on what comes
from there, that is too close to Spring Encampment for my comfort.

[Major Lord]

Tony Upton ( May he live forever in the Halls of Valhalla) arranged for two of us CAWG members who are climbers to go through the "factory" train-the-trainer course for the Ropes course on Camp SLO ( some other bases use the same vendor) so we can train and bless rappelling and ropes course instructors. Seven days of special torture with the Army  National Guard, and after a couple of years, we have conducted zero courses... I can certify you , but no one will use you.... CAWG has not the testicular fortitude for such things I am afraid. I am not sure, but I think that the rifle range ( M-16 familiarization) has not happened at Encampment  in some time either. Pretty low adventure....

Major Lord

[NCRblues]

I really hope this does not turn out to bring more safety requirements.... i think we have enough of that already.

[RiverAux]

As one of the reasons we have ICLs is to address immediate safety concerns, I would tend to be somewhat more pessimistic about this being only a temporary halt to these activities. 

[Daniel]

It says 'Units ' is it still possible to do these activities at wing activities (ie encampments)?
where there is

A) Approval from the wing CC
B) Highly certified instructors

Edit: Oh wait, this is happening now so that 'It will have minimal effect' on summer activities

[Eclipse]

Edit: Oh wait, this is happening now so that 'It will have minimal effect' on summer activities

Not all encampments and firearms training happens in the summer...

[cap235629]

maybe they can revamp the firearms training language to include instructors from CMP and 4H.  They also need to update it to the new NRA qualification program. In fact I may send an email to that effect......

As far as dual chartered units, I don't see this as affecting that as the BSA charter is separate and outside of CAP control.

[FlyTiger77]

As one of the reasons we have ICLs is to address immediate safety concerns, I would tend to be somewhat more pessimistic about this being only a temporary halt to these activities.

I would think that "immediate" safety concerns could have been resolved while drafting a regulation that just hit the streets on the day before yesterday!

[RiverAux]

That would be a reasonable expectation, but this is CAP....

[kmbarnes1]

Low-Ropes Courses? Those are perfect for leadership activities and I don't see how they can be considered "High Adventure" unless they are thinking of something different than I. This is crazy. I can understand (but don't particularly agree with) Paintball but if the Boy Scouts can do it, why can't CAP do it?

[A.Member]

sigh.   

[JeffDG]

The title of the ICL seems to imply that it only applies to cadets is that true?

I know during DWH, there was a push to get aircrews through the Water Survival training here...wondering if that would be impacted.

[Eclipse]

52-16 is a document specific to cadet activities and training.

Anything regarding senior members is found in other regulations.  I don't read this as applying to Seniors in any way except in regards to their participation in cadet activities.

With that said, an interesting thing was brought to my attention earlier this year - there is no authorization whatsoever for Senior Members
to participate in firearms training of any kind.  The only authorization whatsoever is in regards to cadets.

How many seniors have taken a spot on a firing line right along with their cadets?

[N Harmon]

That does seem to be what the regulation says. CAP members may not use firearms unless they are cadets participating in firearms training that complies with CAPR 52-16. And then, not right now due to the ICL.

That being the case, I have a question for those members who claimed cadets could not get together to play paintball outside of CAP: Would you also say senior members are likewise prohibited from getting together outside of CAP for activities that involve firearms, like hunting for example?

[MICT1362]

maybe they can revamp the firearms training language to include instructors from CMP and 4H.  They also need to update it to the new NRA qualification program. In fact I may send an email to that effect......

As far as dual chartered units, I don't see this as affecting that as the BSA charter is separate and outside of CAP control.

I have already addressed this with a Corporate Officer, but I'm sure that another mention to somebody higher up wont hurt.

How many seniors have taken a spot on a firing line right along with their cadets?

Only as an instructor.  Now there are several very persistant SM's that I know, that think they have a right to shoot as well.



Does anybody have any idea why this ICL was released two days after the new 52-16?  Was this a screw up on NHQ's part?  Was there a screw up at an activity?

I just don't get it...

-Paramedic

[ZigZag911]

The expiration date of the prohibition makes it sound like there is some issue to be discussed by the National Board at their winter meeting before letting this proceed.

Also, water survival training and similar activities constitute mission related requirements, not "High Adventure Activities" (i.e., FUN!)...I seriously doubt anyone intended to hamstring operations with this ICL.

[a2capt]

An ICL with a date??? Wow. Lets see if they actually adhere  to it.

[RiverAux]

Don't discourage them.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I could not imagine that this will take HAA's away at all. People have been griping about CAP being too "prissy" about what cadets can and can't do. For a long time many members have been wanting (especially the cadets) to be able to do more adventurous activities. I have heard them complain that even the boy scouts get to do more than we do. They love the rest of CAP so they don't want to leave it. Finally NHQ has heard the cry and is doing something about it and cadets are exited about getting to do rappelling and all this cool stuff that before, they would never have been allowed to do. If NHQ were to take this temporary pause, and turn it into a permanent one, they would see a whole lot of outrage. I don't think they will do anything more than fine tune the regulation. Don't fear, this will be over before you know it, and I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

[JeffDG]

Also, water survival training and similar activities constitute mission related requirements, not "High Adventure Activities" (i.e., FUN!)...I seriously doubt anyone intended to hamstring operations with this ICL.

Umm...it's specifically mentioned in the ICL:

HAAs include rappelling, obstacle courses, low-ropes courses, water survival courses and similar endeavors.

[A.Member]

52-16 is a document specific to cadet activities and training.

Anything regarding senior members is found in other regulations.  I don't read this as applying to Seniors in any way except in regards to their participation in cadet activities.

With that said, an interesting thing was brought to my attention earlier this year - there is no authorization whatsoever for Senior Members
to participate in firearms training of any kind.  The only authorization whatsoever is in regards to cadets.

How many seniors have taken a spot on a firing line right along with their cadets?

On the same note, has anyone noticed that 900-3 has not been updated since 1986?!  Seems that there is an opportunity there for update and review as well.  For ex., there is a reference to "50-16", which is not a current regulation - I don't know if that was a typo or if that was a precursor to 52-16.   Regardless, the regulation should probably be reviewed an updated.  Seems that there could be some room for a common sense approach to weapons training, even if it has no direct relationship with our missions.

[Eclipse]

I heard back from NHQ, as I didn't ask for permission, I am not going to quote the message here, but SAMT is not affected and
the issue being addressed is providing more specific guidance on HAA's.

[Eclipse]

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/2011_02_03_High_Adventure_Activitie_EC5529EC6670C.pdf

"Effective immediately and through 31 March 2011, all units will refrain from conducting
firearm, paintball, simunition and High Adventure Activities (HAA) as defined in CAPR 52-16,
paragraphs 2-10 and 2-11 (1 February 2011 edition).  HAAs include rappelling, obstacle courses,
low-ropes courses, water survival courses and similar endeavors. "

So...

1 April has come and gone with no comment or clarification.  Does this mean HA's are now authorized again as per the current 52-16 or not?
Was anything changed or addressed with this?  I noticed a story the other day about an HA and remembered they were banned.

[Ned]

[So...

1 April has come and gone with no comment or clarification.  Does this mean HA's are now authorized again as per the current 52-16 or not?

Watch for an update within the next day or so . . .

[ßτε]

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/2011_02_03_High_Adventure_Activitie_EC5529EC6670C.pdf

"Effective immediately and through 31 March 2011, all units will refrain from conducting
firearm, paintball, simunition and High Adventure Activities (HAA) as defined in CAPR 52-16,
paragraphs 2-10 and 2-11 (1 February 2011 edition).  HAAs include rappelling, obstacle courses,
low-ropes courses, water survival courses and similar endeavors. "

So...

1 April has come and gone with no comment or clarification.  Does this mean HA's are now authorized again as per the current 52-16 or not?
Was anything changed or addressed with this?  I noticed a story the other day about an HA and remembered they were banned.

I guess you missed the March 31, 2011 update.

[Eclipse]

I guess you missed the March 31, 2011 update.

I did, although this one expires Wednesday.

Is that when the pamphlet is coming out?

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Hopefully nothing more will come out and we can go about having fun this Summer.

[Major Lord]

If you were a betting man, which would you wager on? NHQ going the way of the bed-wetting, left-handed, Birkenstock wearing sissy  pinko lawyers or the Truth Justice and the American way?

Major Lord

[sneakers]

If you were a betting man, which would you wager on? NHQ going the way of the bed-wetting, left-handed, Birkenstock wearing sissy  pinko lawyers or the Truth Justice and the American way?

Major Lord

In the case of NHQ...    Always air on the side of the "bed-wetting, left-handed, Birkenstock wearing sissy pinko lawyers." You won't be wrong as often as you should then. 

[ßτε]

CAPR 52-16 has been updated. It specifies CAPF 54 to be used for Wing CC approval of HAA.
The ICL has been removed from the list of ICLs.

[davidsinn]

CAPR 52-16 has been updated. It specifies CAPF 54 to be used for Wing CC approval of HAA.
The ICL has been removed from the list of ICLs.

It took three months to come up with that?

[Eclipse]

This document is incomplete, does not properly address the reg, and offers no actual "guidance", it is just a checklist.

There is no accommodation for the Group structure (how is something like this missed?)

Rappelling, for example, is only authorized for DOD/Guard & Fire Departments, yet there is no mention of FD on the document,
yet it explicitly mentioned LEA's (which I guarantee you is going to cause issues where an LEA offers CAP rappelling training).

Why would any non-CPPT approved seniors be allowed to be involved at all?

As Form 31's are required for any HAA, why would there be a question as to if they will be available?

What about cadets over 18?

There is also no lead time specified, which means that "night before" will be common.

And where is the "guidance" promised?

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

It also does not address that LE / Mil is not the only acceptable instructors for firearms.

[cap235629]

It also does not address that LE / Mil is not the only acceptable instructors for firearms.

I was told that 4H and CMP marksmanship instructors were going to be included as well.  I know for a fact it is allowed if the wing Commander approves as I had to jump through MANY hoops to get it approved through National....

I wish they would actually do what they say they are going to do.

[Flying Pig]

What a joke.  Gosh,.....I cant understand why my kid thought CAP was boring.

Hes now looking at the Sea Cadets.  Doesnt look like they have any issues with so called High Adventure Activities.  What CAP calls High Adventure is what my kid does with his buddies on the weekends.

TRAINING SCHOOLS
AIRMAN TRAINING (BASIC & ADVANCED)
AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL TRAINING
FAA GROUND SCHOOL
CULINARY ARTS TRAINING
MEDICAL TRAINING (GENERAL, FIELD, SURGICAL & DENTAL TECH)
FIREFIGHTING TRAINING
PHOTO JOURNALISM TRAINING
CEREMONIAL GUARD
SUBMARINE SEMINAR
MARKSMANSHIP TRAINING
CONSTRUCTION BATTALION (SEABEE) TRAINING (BASIC & ADVANCED)
MINE WAREFARE OPERATIONS TRAINING
MUSIC SCHOOL
SEAL TEAM TRAINING
EXPLOSIVE ORDNANCE DISPOSAL TRAINING
AMPHIBIOUS TRAINING
PETTY OFFICER LEADERSHIP ACADEMY
MASTER-AT-ARMS TRAINING (MILITARY POLICE/LAW)
JUDGE ADVOCATED GENERAL (JAG) TRAINING
SAILING SCHOOL
SCUBA SCHOOL
SEAMANSHIP TRAINING
SHIPBOARD TRAINING

LIVE ABOARD NAVY & COAST GUARD SHIPS & SHORE STATIONS FOR TWO-WEEKS.

[Eclipse]

Kudos to the NSCC for their being able to provide some cool things to their cadets, but in most cases the comparison is not fair.

The NSCC has direct support and training from the Navy, including having their RDC's provide basic cadet and other training.
Further, they have no operational mission whatsoever, which means their total focus is on the cadets, and they are also
a whole lot smaller, since the interest in adult members is much lower.

If we could send cadets to Lacklund for a week or two every year, we'd have a whole different cadet corps.

[PA Guy]

While there are some gray areas, not always a bad thing, I can live with this new reg.  All it really requires is that you document everything and takes us away from the "good ole days" when some S/M would decide they were a subject matter expert in some HAA type activity and proceed to teach bad habits or worse get someone hurt.  So, overall it isn't that bad and could have been a lot worse.

[Flying Pig]

Kudos to the NSCC for their being able to provide some cool things to their cadets, but in most cases the comparison is not fair.

The NSCC has direct support and training from the Navy, including having their RDC's provide basic cadet and other training.
Further, they have no operational mission whatsoever, which means their total focus is on the cadets, and they are also
a whole lot smaller, since the interest in adult members is much lower.

If we could send cadets to Lacklund for a week or two every year, we'd have a whole different cadet corps.

Oh, I didnt realize the cadet program had an operational mission.

[Eclipse]

Last I checked cadets were able and encouraged to perform the majority of CAP's ES missions.  Most of the training they
receive is directly relate-able to tasks they can and do perform in real-world missions in the field (except in CAWG, apparently),
and a whole lot of them say they joined to "do ES".

The NSCC trains cadets in a lot of things that are "wicked cool", but not exactly usable unless they join the military, and further, the
majority of senior members in CAP have their attention divided between the CP and ES (some do AE as well).

From the cadet perspective, obviously, the "wicked cool" is all that matters, but CAP is not about a single focus or "wicked cool" - the trouble is
we haven't been manned to complete our mission(s) for 10-15 years (at least), and the increasing amount of administrivia is further reducing the
time spent in mission training and execution (including wicked cool).

While the majority of the unit leaders and staff may be volunteers, a whole lot more of the trainers and training resources are professional
Navy personnel, utilizing equipment that the rest of the year trains Seamen or fights wars, so the equations are just not equal.

[Flying Pig]

 I dont need an explanation as to why NSCC can make it happen and CAP cant.  I was in CAP 20+ years.

My 12 year old didnt really care why either.  All he knew was that Sea Cadets got to do it and he didnt. 

[NCRblues]

This seems like the NLO had a bad dream about lawsuits, overreacted, and rubberstamped something out, that is confusing and has loopholes big enough to drive an A380 through it.....

*fingers crossed for change in august*

[Майор Хаткевич]

I dont need an explanation as to why NSCC can make it happen and CAP cant.  I was in CAP 20+ years.

My 12 year old didnt really care why either.  All he knew was that Sea Cadets got to do it and he didnt.

Having met on the same base as the local NSCC and interacted with them, I can tell you right away that for them it was a "Hard kewl hangout club". They may call it a cadet program, but they (more often than not) goofed off.

Honestly, running around the woods of IL with unloaded M16s is something my buddies and I did on the weekends. Sure, ours were plastic, and theirs are the "real deal", but ours actually shot something at each other and theirs just did "bang bang".

Oh, and when it came to staffing the local Air Show? CAP cadets were put in charge of the AJROTC and the NSCC for purposes of a CoC.

[sneakers]

It's a little more than just goofing off. I've seen them firsthand actually training their cadets with firearm facsimilies on how to handcuff a person, react to an armed assailant, and training for street-to-street fighting.

That's both fun and offers valuable self-defense lessons to them. CAP really needs to get on board and realize that in order to improve retention and recruiting, we also need to offer more exciting opportunities on a regular basis (beyond flying a flider once a year).

[Майор Хаткевич]

It's a little more than just goofing off. I've seen them firsthand actually training their cadets with firearm facsimilies on how to handcuff a person, react to an armed assailant, and training for street-to-street fighting.

That's both fun and offers valuable self-defense lessons to them. CAP really needs to get on board and realize that in order to improve retention and recruiting, we also need to offer more exciting opportunities on a regular basis (beyond flying a flider once a year).

They are called NCSAs.

The week to week (month to month for them), seemed quite stale. They always looked forward to the "special" activities. There's a reason for that.

[wuzafuzz]

I dont need an explanation as to why NSCC can make it happen and CAP cant.  I was in CAP 20+ years.

My 12 year old didnt really care why either.  All he knew was that Sea Cadets got to do it and he didnt.

Having met on the same base as the local NSCC and interacted with them, I can tell you right away that for them it was a "Hard kewl hangout club". They may call it a cadet program, but they (more often than not) goofed off.

Honestly, running around the woods of IL with unloaded M16s is something my buddies and I did on the weekends. Sure, ours were plastic, and theirs are the "real deal", but ours actually shot something at each other and theirs just did "bang bang".

Oh, and when it came to staffing the local Air Show? CAP cadets were put in charge of the AJROTC and the NSCC for purposes of a CoC.

Just like CAP, I'm sure there are some local differences in NSCC units.  What you describe didn't happen in my NSCC squadron.  Granted that was a long time ago, but what I experienced was a quality cadet program.  Spending 2 weeks on an aircraft carrier was way cool.  One weekend a month at VP-65 was plenty cool.  The local CAP unit simply couldn't compete with that.  True, Navy support made all the difference.  At 14 years of age I didn't care WHY, simply that one military cadet program looked a lot more interesting to me.   Then I discovered Law Enforcement Explorers.  That was cooler than NSCC and CAP combined, at least to me.

I enjoy CAP and the ES side of things, but if there was a Sea Cadet unit near me I would have signed my kids up in a split second.

So at the end of the day, if CAP wants to recruit cadet members, we shouldn't be so risk averse we become outright boring.

[Майор Хаткевич]

The local unit was at Great Lakes...

[sneakers]

I enjoy CAP and the ES side of things, but if there was a Sea Cadet unit near me I would have signed my kids up in a split second.

So at the end of the day, if CAP wants to recruit cadet members, we shouldn't be so risk averse we become outright boring.

Amen to that!  :clap:

[BillB]

Many of the NSCC activities listed above, CAP used to take part in. At least the Air Force versions. Often the activities were held at encampments which were held on Air Force Bases. And back then almost every Wing held a two week encampment. Florida ran two, two week summer encampments for 300 cadets each. But the Air Force has lost to many bases, and those remaining are overcrowded and can't support that many cadets for that length of time. Many bases could support a week long 25 cadet special activity in specific areas such as military communications, aircraft mainenance etc. Many training programs at a special activity might be part of the ES missions such as Air Force Base operations that would relate to CAP mission operations.