Quote from: xray328 on June 17, 2015, 01:49:24 PM
I understand the reason why drill instruction is setup like it is. But you can't say in place movements are all you need for the Curry, the Curry prepares you for encampment, now show up knowing how to march in formation.

Seems like there's a lot of debate on what a cadet should show up with. The consensus seems to be that it's not cadet basic training, but if the kid can't march then that's what it becomes. Since the Curry isn't changing and NHQ says that's what's required to attend, I agree then that encampments have to be prepared to accept kids that are going to need that "cadet basic training".

And yes, 2% is a small percentage...unless your kids in that 2% (raises hand).

You are misinformed about encampment then. 

Quote from: Offutteer on June 15, 2015, 06:04:36 PM
CAP is a bargain as compared to some other camps. 

http://www.nationalflightacademy.com/    $1,250 (though they do offer scholarships)

http://www.spacecamp.com/http://www.spacecamp.com/  Space Academy 12 -14 year old, $939

The kid would get a t-shirt or two, rather than full sets of uniforms.

"Bargain" is relative. Bargain it may be, but that doesn't reduce the actual cash amount.

A $750,000 house for $500,000 would also be a bargain. But you still need the half million.

My parents sent me and my brother to encampment in 1969. Other parents thought "great price, compared to Boy Scout camp" (once they grasped that "the Air Force" was charging cadets to go to an Army base). But, my parents - every fee and uniform it was always followed by "times two." I know they struggled and went without in order to send us.

Quote from: xray328 on June 17, 2015, 01:49:24 PM
I understand the reason why drill instruction is setup like it is. But you can't say in place movements are all you need for the Curry, the Curry prepares you for encampment, now show up knowing how to march in formation.

Seems like there's a lot of debate on what a cadet should show up with. The consensus seems to be that it's not cadet basic training, but if the kid can't march then that's what it becomes. Since the Curry isn't changing and NHQ says that's what's required to attend, I agree then that encampments have to be prepared to accept kids that are going to need that "cadet basic training".

And yes, 2% is a small percentage...unless your kids in that 2% (raises hand).

If every non-staff cadet at encampment showed up able to perform Curry mandated in-place drill movements, a competent staff would be able to herd them from place to place, in step, within an hour of falling in to their flights. Heck, 50 of us were doing that at the Ft. Polk reception station on our way to our first breakfast, led by a prior service NG Specialist and a former CAP cadet (this guy).

Flanks, columns, all the rest can build on itself. Throw in some element leaders who are already cadet NCOs. 

This isn't the problem it seems to be. Individual and element level is where the learning curve is. Flight level gets picked up at encampment on the fly. Squadron and higher level drill impacts cadre, with students only needing to "keep on keeping on" for the most part. If flights dont have it down by 2-3 days in, look closer at the cadre.

Sounds like cadet basic training 

I agree with you though, as long as that's what the cadre are expecting that's fine.

Quote from: xray328 on June 17, 2015, 10:16:21 PM
Sounds like cadet basic training 

I agree with you though, as long as that's what the cadre are expecting that's fine.

yup!

Quote from: C/Maj Kiss on June 17, 2015, 10:32:57 PM

Quote from: xray328 on June 17, 2015, 10:16:21 PM
Sounds like cadet basic training 

I agree with you though, as long as that's what the cadre are expecting that's fine.

yup!

No it's not. I highly recommend you both go and read the curriculum either for the first time or again.

We're beating a dead horse here. What it comes down to is that not every cadets going to be at the same level because they all come from different backgrounds, vary in maturity, and level of motivation. Achieving the Curry is what gets them there. The cadre are going to do their very best to get those lacking up to speed as quickly as possible and everyone will leave at the end of the week all that much better for it, both those that were trained and those that did the training. 

Quote from: xray328 on June 17, 2015, 11:12:29 PM
We're beating a dead horse here. What it comes down to is that not every cadets going to be at the same level because they all come from different backgrounds, vary in maturity, and level of motivation. Achieving the Curry is what gets them there. The cadre are going to do their very best to get those lacking up to speed as quickly as possible and everyone will leave at the end of the week all that much better for it, both those that were trained and those that did the training.

You miss the point or don't care.  Read the reference i have pointed out to you.  What you have stated is not the goal or foundation of encampment. 

Stepping out of the thread at this point.

Quote from: xray328 on June 17, 2015, 11:29:38 PM
What's not the goal? Teaching them to march in formation? Never said it was.

Here is the reference:

Quote from: CAPR 52-16
a. Mission. The purpose of the cadet encampment is for cadets to develop leadership skills, investigate the aerospace sciences and related careers, commit to a habit of regular exercise, and reinforce their moral character.
b. Vision. The vision for the cadet encampment is "an immersion into the full challenges and opportunities of cadet life."

Further guidance from CAPP 52-24:

Quoted. Goal Areas. Encampments aim to serve multiple constituencies. There are more people who have a stake in the program than simply the first-year cadet- students. In fulfilling its purposes and realizing its vision, the encampment pursues goals in five different areas simultaneously.

The overall encampment program sets goals for each cadet-student as an individual – what CAP hopes that cadet will know, do, or value as a result of encampment.

Second, encampment is a learning experience for each member of the cadet cadre, so the program sets goals for those advanced cadets.

Third, it is not enough that each cadet succeed individually; encampments aim to foster teamwork, so the program sets collective goals for the flights as teams.

Fourth, encampment is a venue for adult CAP members to grow as leaders of cadets, so the program sets goals for those individuals.
And finally, the encampment is the centerpiece of the wing-level Cadet Program, providing the wing with an opportunity to boost the capabilities of its hometown cadet and composite squadrons and to standardize cadet training within the wing, so the encampment program pursues goals for the wing's overall Cadet Program.

Quote
5.2 Leadership Block
a. Goals. The leadership block is designed to fulfill the following goals:
• To infuse the cadets with the "warrior spirit" – an attitude of self-determination backed-up by the
discipline needed to achieve one's goals.
• To consistently demonstrate proper wear of the uniform, drill and ceremonies, and military customs and courtesies.
• To impress upon the cadets the team's potential to accomplish more than the individual.
• To educate cadets on leadership's academic foundations so that they begin to conceive of leadership as an activity requiring thoughtful reflection.

Quote
Goals. The aerospace block is designed to fulfill the following goals:
• To spark enthusiasm for aerospace topics among cadets, through hands-on activities and exper- iential learning.
• To introduce cadets to aerospace career oppor- tunities, especially those relating to science, technology, engineering, and math (STEM), and Air Force careers in general.
• To comprehend basic scientific principles in
the aerospace field, and to enable cadets to visualize how professionals apply that knowledge in the real world.
• To begin to comprehend airpower's unique capabilities and to develop a sense of what the Air Force calls "airmindedness."

Quote
5.4 Fitness Block
a. Goals. The fitness block is designed to fulfill the following goals:
• To motivate cadets to regard regular exercise as a duty of the cadet lifestyle.
• To train cadets in safe ways to exercise properly.
• To comprehend how basic nutrition, proper hydration, and regular exercise affect a cadet's personal energy levels and the ability to achieve his or her goals.
• To use fitness activities, games, drills, sports, etc., as vehicles for teamwork and camaraderie.

Quote
5.5 Character Block
a. Goals. The character block is designed to fulfill the following goals:
• To solidify cadets' knowledge of the Core Values – the vocabulary, their need as guideposts, and
examples of how the Core Values apply to real life scenarios.
• To equip cadets with practical skills for becoming a Core Values leader in their daily lives.
• To demonstrate to cadets that heroes they respect live according to a personal code of honor, and to inspire cadets to commit to the Core Values as a way of life.
• To promote the habit of self-reflection as a tool for character development and maintenance.

So no, it is not a cadet basic training.

That's not, this is, which is what my comment was in regards to.

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on June 17, 2015, 10:12:03 PM

Quote from: xray328 on June 17, 2015, 01:49:24 PM
I understand the reason why drill instruction is setup like it is. But you can't say in place movements are all you need for the Curry, the Curry prepares you for encampment, now show up knowing how to march in formation.

Seems like there's a lot of debate on what a cadet should show up with. The consensus seems to be that it's not cadet basic training, but if the kid can't march then that's what it becomes. Since the Curry isn't changing and NHQ says that's what's required to attend, I agree then that encampments have to be prepared to accept kids that are going to need that "cadet basic training".

And yes, 2% is a small percentage...unless your kids in that 2% (raises hand).

If every non-staff cadet at encampment showed up able to perform Curry mandated in-place drill movements, a competent staff would be able to herd them from place to place, in step, within an hour of falling in to their flights. Heck, 50 of us were doing that at the Ft. Polk reception station on our way to our first breakfast, led by a prior service NG Specialist and a former CAP cadet (this guy).

Flanks, columns, all the rest can build on itself. Throw in some element leaders who are already cadet NCOs. 

This isn't the problem it seems to be. Individual and element level is where the learning curve is. Flight level gets picked up at encampment on the fly. Squadron and higher level drill impacts cadre, with students only needing to "keep on keeping on" for the most part. If flights dont have it down by 2-3 days in, look closer at the cadre.

Quote from: xray328 on June 17, 2015, 10:16:21 PM
Sounds like cadet basic training 

Your words. Not mine.

My words are:

The Curry standards are a necessary foundation. The rest is built on that. "Basic training" implies arriving with no foundation.

Call it what you want, teaching cadets to march in formation is something that should be taught at home and not something the cadre should have to do.  There are "basic" skills every cadet should show up to encampment with, and the ability to march in formation is one of them. If you have to teach that skill you are teaching them CAP basics.  The encampment is not "basic training", per say, all I'm saying is that it is training the cadets in some very basic areas, again, which they should have already been taught at home. That skill only is what I'm referring to, certainly not the encampment as a whole. Training cadets in some basic areas does not make it "basic training".

On the flip side, because the Curry is the standard, and marching in formation isn't included, it needs to be something the cadre are prepared to teach. It still goes back to what the expectation is. If encampment leaders expect that they should be able to have these skills upon arrival this needs to be looked at and the encampment adjusted accordingly.

A big deal either way? Not at all.

Quote from: xray328 on June 18, 2015, 12:44:22 PM
The encampment is not "basic training", per say, all I'm saying is that it is training the cadets in some very basic areas, again, which they should have already been taught at home.

This x 1000!

If you look at the Cadet Encampment Handbook, more than half of the leadership material covers topics from the first chapter of the leadership book.  If your squadron is doing things the way NHQ wants them done, encampment is the third time that cadets are exposed to that material after Great Start and their own reading.

Yes X-ray you are correct. But that knowledge is not required for Curry and Curry is all that is required for Encampment.   Ergo if the cadre wants the students to march in formation they got to be prepared to teach it.

X, National seems to think otherwise. Marching is not a basic thing anymore.

Stick to the basics as presented by NHQ.

Quote from: lordmonar on June 18, 2015, 03:33:37 PM
Yes X-ray you are correct. But that knowledge is not required for Curry and Curry is all that is required for Encampment.   Ergo if the cadre wants the students to march in formation they got to be prepared to teach it.

My point exactly, thanks Lordsmonar.

Sorry if I didn't explain myself better in previous posts, I didn't mean to offend anyone.

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on June 18, 2015, 03:42:12 PM
X, National seems to think otherwise. Marching is not a basic thing anymore.

Stick to the basics as presented by NHQ.

And that's totally fine. Like I keep saying, if cadre know and expect that it's obviously a moot point.

I see drill and ceremonies in the curriculum, I assume it's being addressed there.

Quote from: lordmonar on June 18, 2015, 03:33:37 PM
Yes X-ray you are correct. But that knowledge is not required for Curry and Curry is all that is required for Encampment.   Ergo if the cadre wants the students to march in formation they got to be prepared to teach it.

Indeed.

But I just had a scary thought:

People aren't teaching/testing the Curru D&C requirements, awarding the ribbon and STOPPING, are they?

Curry is the minimum requirement. Testing is to those standards. But there's nothing stopping anyone from progressing to element and flight D&C. It's quite possible to have Curry cadets show up at encampment knowing how to step off, halt, double time, flank, column...in which case their adaptation to the encampment environment is enhanced. Meanwhile, the ones with only Curry knowledge have the foundation to adapt to emcpmemt while giving them a leg up on squadron D&C.

I'll eat crow!     Spam is right about the stress. Trying to acquire proper uniforms, and figuring out the packing list as you go is very stressful.  There are only so many things you have time to invent the wheel with - figure out what the item is, buy it and then exchange it for different one, acquire from the unit, exchange it from the unit, order from vanguard, figure out how to deal with it not fitting right, etc. And we have wonderful leaders bending over backwards to help.

IMO a packing list that is more specific for some of the items would help.  Like have another page listing what the item is used for or specific details.  If items are optional should be listed as optional. If there is something helpful but not required, that would be good to list too, hearing it word of mouth last minute isn't enough time.

A mom's cheat sheet of where the item is at Walmart or local dept store and price would be helpful too. For example I found a twin XL blanket in green and gray for $4.88 at Walmart.


BTW Spam I printed out the cadet oath & values and made sure he knows them..sure enough he said he knew the oath but forgot.