First Sergeant Diamonds

[AvroArrow]

Alright, I promise you that I've looked in the 39-1. I swear that I searched, googled, and scoured for this answer to no avail.

Right. I've seen 1sg Diamonds on the Hock and Vanguard and, according to Vanguard, they go on the right collar for First Sergeants who're not a Msg-CMSgt. But I've never heard of this before. So why is the diamond available?

http://www.thehock.com/shop/largerimage.php?prod_id=219
http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6_390_395_396&products_id=7020

Avro 

[Eclipse]

Did you try the Knowledgebase?

http://tinyurl.com/4mp68x

Its an oversight in 39-1.  The diamonds are approved for wear in 52-16.

[RickFranz]

Back in the old days when the Master Sgt had 6 stripes going down you could just pin the diamond at the top of it and there you go First Sgt.  Since MSgt now has 5 down and 1 up there is no real use for the pin on diamond.

[AvroArrow]

Did you try the Knowledgebase?

http://tinyurl.com/4mp68x

Its an oversight in 39-1.  The diamonds are approved for wear in 52-16.

The link doesn't work.

[IceNine]

capnhq.custhelp.com

Search "first sergeant"  you will see "wearing the first sergeant diamond"

[Eclipse]

From the KB:

One cadet member of a cadet or composite squadron may be appointed to fill the position of First Sergeant and wear the diamond on his/her grade insignia. Cadets who are serving as the unit's first sergeant may purchase a chevron with the first sergeant's diamond screened between the upper and lower rockers of the top three NCO chevrons.

See CAP REGULATION 52-16 CADET PROGRAM MANAGEMENT 1 OCTOBER 2006

2-4. Cadet Promotions.
e. Temporary & Discretionary Grades. There are no temporary promotions or demotions, including temporary or "field" promotions or demotions at encampments and other activities. There are no discretionary grades. Cadets will wear their earned grade on their uniform at every CAP activity. The only grades authorized are those shown in Figure 2-3. However, each squadron may appoint a C/MSgt, C/SMSgt or C/CMSgt to serve as the cadet first sergeant. Cadets serving in this special duty are authorized to wear the first sergeant diamond insignia.

Vanguard/CAPMart has the following cadet grade insignia available:

C/MSgt Chevron, 646G
C/MSgt Chevron with First Sergeant's Diamond, 646GA
C/SMSgt Chevron, 645
C/SMSgt Chevron with First Sergeant's Diamond, 645A
C/CMSgt Chevron, 645B
C/CMSgt Chevron with First Sergeant's Diamond, 645C

[MIKE]

... COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. Any variation from this publication is not authorized.  Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear. NOTE: CAPMart may sell items that are not authorized for wear with the USAF–style or CAP distinctive uniforms. This publication is the sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform combinations as prescribed within.

[Eclipse]

This publication is the sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform combinations as prescribed within.

As a matter of fact, it no longer is, considering the various ICL's in effect.

You could also make the argument that 39-1 is a manual, while 52-16 is a regulation, therefore the "R" trumps the "M", since "R" is higher in the alphabet than "M".   
(no, I have nothing to substantiate that opinion)

[JC004]

Did you try the Knowledgebase?

http://tinyurl.com/4mp68x

Its an oversight in 39-1.  The diamonds are approved for wear in 52-16.

Oversight in 39-1?!  Impossible!

[DNall]

Back in the old days when the Master Sgt had 6 stripes going down you could just pin the diamond at the top of it and there you go First Sgt.  Since MSgt now has 5 down and 1 up there is no real use for the pin on diamond.

Unless you are putting a sub-MSgt in the position, with the assumption that they're capable & you got no one else but need the job done.

[arajca]

Back in the old days when the Master Sgt had 6 stripes going down you could just pin the diamond at the top of it and there you go First Sgt.  Since MSgt now has 5 down and 1 up there is no real use for the pin on diamond.

Unless you are putting a sub-MSgt in the position, with the assumption that they're capable & you got no one else but need the job done.

However, by regulation, if a cadet is not a C/MSgt - C/CMSgt, they cannot be a first sergeant, so they cannot wear the diamond. So there is no use for the diamond by itself.

As for the oversight in 39-1, the KB has been saying that for the past two versions. If they truly meant to put it in the latest version, why didn't they correct the oversight from the previous version? Also, while the KB can clarify a reg, it cannot over rule a reg. In this case authorizing something that was excluded from an restricted manual.

[notaNCO forever]

Were does it say you have to at least be a C/Msgt to be a 1st Sargent.

[arajca]

Were does it say you have to at least be a C/Msgt to be a 1st Sargent.

CAP REGULATION 52-16 CADET PROGRAM MANAGEMENT 1 OCTOBER 2006

2-4. Cadet Promotions.
e. Temporary & Discretionary Grades. There are no temporary promotions or demotions, including temporary or "field" promotions or demotions at encampments and other activities. There are no discretionary grades. Cadets will wear their earned grade on their uniform at every CAP activity. The only grades authorized are those shown in Figure 2-3. However, each squadron may appoint a C/MSgt, C/SMSgt or C/CMSgt to serve as the cadet first sergeant. Cadets serving in this special duty are authorized to wear the first sergeant diamond insignia.

[notaNCO forever]

Thanks I didn't realize that it was in the regs. Are squadron doesn't have a first Sargent so I was sure about the grade restrictions on it.

[DNall]

news to me also & I got a master rating in the stuff.

[MIKE]

^ Epic Phail. 

[DNall]

  I got no issue admitting when I'm wrong or don't know something.

[AvroArrow]

so... what's the point of the diamond if no one can wear it...

[lordmonar]

so... what's the point of the diamond if no one can wear it...

Prior to the current issue of 52-16...there was no mention of first sergents.  The position existed in the form of the insignia but no one was authorised it by 39-1.  KB said you could wear it...but it was subject to endless debate if KB was authoritative or not.

When the current 52-16 was issued....it formally stated that first sergeants existed and that you could appoint C/MSgts-C/CMSgts to the position and they could wear the diamond.  We still had debate if 52-16 could override 39-1 and we still had the problem about if C/TSgts and below could serve as first sergeants....and if they could do the job but not get the title and the insignia.....why was vanguard still selling the stand alone diamond.

So......

If you are a 100% by the regs ....no one can wear the diamonds as it is not in 39-1.....but then you have to deal with conflicting regs.

Bottom line.....the world will not end if you give a diamond to a C/Amn or even a C/AB....but you will have to put up with a some flack time to time.

[arajca]

IMHO, the reason Vanguard is still selling the diamond is because they had a lot left over when the AF switched to the current MSgt insignia. Remember, there a caveat on CAPMart and the Bookstore - they sold some items that were not authorized for wear on the uniform. I recall seeing this on the cadet grade insignia page, where the diamond was located.