C206 pilots

[Flying Pig]

For those of you driving the 206, are you using 40 degrees of flaps for your landings as a routine?  I have been using primarily 10, sometimes 20.  At my department (Sheriff), the senior pilot and the Cessna factory guy both really try to stay away from 40 degrees as much as possible in all conditions.  It seems to make the nose EXTREMELY heavy.  Im thankful for electric trim!  I have no problem at all getting it on the ground and stopped on some of the shortest strips with only 20.  We also have Vortex Generators on our airplane so I don't know if that is a contributor.  I only have about 15 hours in the 206, so if anyone has any insight into the beast.

[SJFedor]

I've got a few hours in the 206, w/o the vortex generators. The nose wasn't too bad w/ 40 of flaps, but you're right, it did require some more nose up trim to keep it stabilized.

When you're using 40 and getting a lot of nose heavy force, what's the plane loaded like? If you're loaded up to full gross, with some people or stuff in the back, I don't think it'd be as bad as you just being solo, as the rearward CG will help.

[bosshawk]

Rob: I fly the 206 at Castle and I just about never use 40 flaps.  Usualy use 10 on downwind and 20 on base and final.  Of course, at Castle, I have 11,837 feet of runway.  That said, at the run of the mill GA airport, I typically use 20 degrees and have no problem getting the thing stopped, without using brakes much at all.

One big reason not to use 40 is the amount of drag if you have to make a go around and you are heavy: it can get sporty climbing and retracting those big barn doors at the same time.

I find that technique is often a personal thing, with lots of advice from those who have gone before me.  What do I know, I soloed almost 47 years ago.

[Frenchie]

I've got very little 206 time, but a lot of 182 time, which is the 206's little brother.

I look at flaps on the 206 just as I would with any aircraft.  Use as much flaps as you need for the given conditions and situation.

If I'm landing at a short field that is close to the minimum landing distance published in the POH, you can bet I'm going to use every notch of flaps I have.  The more flaps you have the greater your glide slope angle can become.  This is great for short fields with terrain or other obstructions.  More flaps = slower stall speed which allows you to make a slower approach which reduces your ground roll.

If I'm landing at a long paved field in good condition and no obstructions, I'm probably not going to use all the flaps I have.  If you  have to go around, the aircraft is probably not going to climb at 40 degrees of flaps, so you're going to have to immediately start reducing flaps.  On my aircraft, at the same time I am taking out elevator trim, setting the carb heat and advancing the throttle.  Messing with the flaps is not something I really want to be doing at that point.  If I had only 20 degrees of flaps set, I don't have to worry about them until I get some altitude.

Flaps give you extra lift and drag.  For most aircraft, flaps give you a large amount of lift on the first one or two settings with not a lot of additional drag, but on the last settings, you get a lot more drag for not a lot more lift.  For many certified aircraft you can find the optimum most lift, least drag point when you're on the ground by deflecting the yoke full to one side and noting the position of the down aileron.  Set the flaps to match the deflection of that aileron, and that's the point of the least drag for the most lift.

[LittleIronPilot]

In my C182 I have recently started landing with 30 degrees for most landings instead of 40. WHAT a difference...my glide is less steep, less nose heavy, less "thunk" onto the ground.

[Frenchie]

In my C182 I have recently started landing with 30 degrees for most landings instead of 40. WHAT a difference...my glide is less steep, less nose heavy, less "thunk" onto the ground.

Even with 40 degrees of flaps you should be able to do that.  Right at the point of flare add just a touch of power, but not so much as to cause you to float.  The additional relative wind created by the prop will give you more elevator authority, and will also help to arrest your descent.  If I have no obstruction concerns, I will just set that power setting and make a stabilized approach all the way in.  About 15" of MP give or take an inch usually does it.  Many times 182s are loaded with two people in front and nothing in the back which puts the CG way forward.  Some people carry around a bag or two of shot in the baggage area to compensate.  Personally I just adjust my technique accordingly.

People often characterize the 182 as a "nose heavy" aircraft.  I don't really like to look at it that way.  The 182 is a very stable aircraft and is heavy on all the controls.  That's why it's so popular.  Those characteristics make it feel nose heavy at slow speeds because all the controls are exaggerated.  Because of it's heavy controls, the 182 needs a lot of trim in low speed conditions and it needs relative wind over the elevator.  If you chop and drop like a 172 and use little to no trim, you're going to have an aircraft that feels very nose heavy.

[FW]

I have quite a few hours in the 206 and have only used more than 20 degrees of flaps when the aircraft was fitted with the STOL kit.  Then again, I've also used 30 degrees of flaps with full load on landing.  Of course in that situation I had power almost to touch down.  The 206 handles quite differently than the 182.  It's heavier, wider and shorter.  And control forces are much heavier.  But, It's a great stable platform and lands like a dream with 20 degrees at any load level.

[Frenchie]

I didn't get the impression the 206 handled significantly differently than the 182.  My impression was the difference from the 182 to the 206 was less than the difference between the 172 and the 182.  I haven't flown either of them with a STOL kit.

[FW]

Here are some interesting C206  maneuvers.  Just don't try them without a qualified instructor with you.

Slow the aircraft(206) to 80 kts., put nose down slightly below level add 30 degrees of flaps and get a 2000 ft/min drop in alt.  It's quite dramatic.  Airspeed should not increase.  It's an interesting maneuver.  I don't think it can be done in the 182.

With the STOL kit, stall speed with 30 degrees of flaps is 38 kts.  That's alot of fun too.  Landing within 1000 ft and takeoff over 50' obstacles within 1500' are no problem.  

With all the seats in a 206 filled, set throttle to 15 inches and watch the fun begin.

Oh, and try a power on stall with 10 degrees of flaps with just you and an instructor on board.  See what happens.  

Trust me, a 182 it ain't.  

[Gunner C]

Here are some interesting C206  maneuvers.  Just don't try them without a qualified instructor with you.

Slow the aircraft(206) to 80 kts., put nose down slightly below level add 30 degrees of flaps and get a 2000 ft/min drop in alt.  It's quite dramatic.  Airspeed should not increase.  It's an interesting maneuver.  I don't think it can be done in the 182.

With the STOL kit, stall speed with 30 degrees of flaps is 38 kts.  That's alot of fun too.  Landing within 1000 ft and takeoff over 50' obstacles within 1500' are no problem.  

With all the seats in a 206 filled, set throttle to 15 inches and watch the fun begin.

Oh, and try a power on stall with 10 degrees of flaps with just you and an instructor on board.  See what happens.  

Trust me, a 182 it ain't.  

Pretty abrupt departure?

[PHall]

Here are some interesting C206  maneuvers.  Just don't try them without a qualified instructor with you.

Slow the aircraft(206) to 80 kts., put nose down slightly below level add 30 degrees of flaps and get a 2000 ft/min drop in alt.  It's quite dramatic.  Airspeed should not increase.  It's an interesting maneuver.  I don't think it can be done in the 182.

With the STOL kit, stall speed with 30 degrees of flaps is 38 kts.  That's alot of fun too.  Landing within 1000 ft and takeoff over 50' obstacles within 1500' are no problem.  

With all the seats in a 206 filled, set throttle to 15 inches and watch the fun begin.

Oh, and try a power on stall with 10 degrees of flaps with just you and an instructor on board.  See what happens.  

Trust me, a 182 it ain't.  

Pretty abrupt departure?

It can be an "E Ticket Ride" if you're not watching for it.

[Gunner C]

 

[mynetdude]

curious, can you simulate this in MSFS 2004/FSX with a decent 206 and 182 model? I know any flight sim isn't going to simulate the dynamics perfectly unless you are using a professional FAA approved flight simulator system I suppose.

[LittleIronPilot]

In my C182 I have recently started landing with 30 degrees for most landings instead of 40. WHAT a difference...my glide is less steep, less nose heavy, less "thunk" onto the ground.

Even with 40 degrees of flaps you should be able to do that.  Right at the point of flare add just a touch of power, but not so much as to cause you to float.  The additional relative wind created by the prop will give you more elevator authority, and will also help to arrest your descent.  If I have no obstruction concerns, I will just set that power setting and make a stabilized approach all the way in.  About 15" of MP give or take an inch usually does it.  Many times 182s are loaded with two people in front and nothing in the back which puts the CG way forward.  Some people carry around a bag or two of shot in the baggage area to compensate.  Personally I just adjust my technique accordingly.

People often characterize the 182 as a "nose heavy" aircraft.  I don't really like to look at it that way.  The 182 is a very stable aircraft and is heavy on all the controls.  That's why it's so popular.  Those characteristics make it feel nose heavy at slow speeds because all the controls are exaggerated.  Because of it's heavy controls, the 182 needs a lot of trim in low speed conditions and it needs relative wind over the elevator.  If you chop and drop like a 172 and use little to no trim, you're going to have an aircraft that feels very nose heavy.

For your perhaps...though I am always up for more learning. However many others will say that carrying power through the flare is simply cheating at good control.

I have a STOL kit, put in 40 degrees and she drops like a ROCK....it makes the transition to a flare a bit more difficult since I have to arrest a great decent rate.

[Frenchie]

Here are some interesting C206  maneuvers.  Just don't try them without a qualified instructor with you.

Slow the aircraft(206) to 80 kts., put nose down slightly below level add 30 degrees of flaps and get a 2000 ft/min drop in alt.  It's quite dramatic.  Airspeed should not increase.  It's an interesting maneuver.  I don't think it can be done in the 182.

With the STOL kit, stall speed with 30 degrees of flaps is 38 kts.  That's alot of fun too.  Landing within 1000 ft and takeoff over 50' obstacles within 1500' are no problem.  

With all the seats in a 206 filled, set throttle to 15 inches and watch the fun begin.

Oh, and try a power on stall with 10 degrees of flaps with just you and an instructor on board.  See what happens.  

Trust me, a 182 it ain't.  

I'm not sure what an exercise like that would be trying to prove other than the fact that the 206 is more of a flying brick than the 182.

The 172/182/206 all have basically the same wing.  The biggest difference between the 3 is weight which affects wing loading.  The difference in weight between the 206 and 182 is smaller than the difference between the 182 and the 172.

[Frenchie]

For your perhaps...though I am always up for more learning. However many others will say that carrying power through the flare is simply cheating at good control.

When the power is pulled completely to idle, the constant speed prop is going to act more like a wind break than acting transparently and allowing the relative wind to pass through.  This is going to block some of the wind going across the elevator.  I actually mispoke because by adding just a touch of power, you're not really creating relative wind, you're just allowing whats already there to pass by the prop relatively unaffected.  I'm not sure how you be "cheating at good control" anyway.  If you have more control, how is that cheating?  Now given if you add too much power, you're going to increase your minimum landing distance which is cheating some of your short field capability.

[Frenchie]

I have a STOL kit, put in 40 degrees and she drops like a ROCK....it makes the transition to a flare a bit more difficult since I have to arrest a great decent rate.

So why not add more power on a stabilized approach to reduce your descent rate?  Unless you're trying to bring the thing in like a helicopter to clear a massive obstruction, there's no reason to have a huge descent rate.

[Flying Pig]

I am generally landing with about 10 degrees and keeping about 12 inches in as I cross the threshold, then in the flare I slowly pull out the power in the flare and it seems to slide right on.  And Im really working the electric trim.  The 206 I am flying is a turbo, so she doesn't like the throttle played with much and I like to keep the juice running through it until the end.
The one thing I have noticed with the turbo is that the fuel settings in the manual are a little deceiving.  If you were to fly a cross country set up like it is in the book, you would fry your cylinders. You really have to be on top of the temps.  We fortunately have a digital CHT/EGT so it makes it really nice.  Having the turbo stuffed in there really increases your temps.  Even on a cold day.  Our mechanic jokes and says "Please fly it according to the book I have kids to feed."

[NIN]

Hey, you 206 jockies, just remember to give us a little right pedal after the cut.. Helps block the wind as we're climbing out.

(You haven't aviated till you've been at about 11,000 ft MSL with the door open and four dudes creating massive amounts of drag by hanging on the strut/wheel of a 182. I've actually heard the stall horn and thought "Hmmm, I'm betting this will get incredibly bad incredibly quickly..")

[BlueLakes1]

Hey, you 206 jockies, just remember to give us a little right pedal after the cut.. Helps block the wind as we're climbing out.

(You haven't aviated till you've been at about 11,000 ft MSL with the door open and four dudes creating massive amounts of drag by hanging on the strut/wheel of a 182. I've actually heard the stall horn and thought "Hmmm, I'm betting this will get incredibly bad incredibly quickly..")

I've played your little game before...albeit in a (very old) 206, rather than a 182.  And yes, I got the right pedal briefing before the flights, and adhered to it diligently!

I've only got a few hours in a 206, a good bit more in a 210, and I almost never land with more than 20 degrees of flap in either.  Just my preference.