The long wait is over and on 15 June 2016 CAP members will be authorized to wear the ABU. I have been waiting for this day since I got out of the Air Force in 2012 and my ABUs have been collecting dust ever since. After going through one transition from the BDU when I was in the Air Force I am happy to be going through another one in CAP. Since the ABU has so many non mandatory accoutrements it will make it easier for members to transition since all a member needs are the ABUs and Name Tapes to start off. According to the revised 39-1 it states that all of the patches and tapes will be "Dark Blue" and "Light Silver Thread". After looking at a few sites I believe that this combination will work (Navy Blue and Silver Thread) . The only thing you will have to do is type "CIVIL AIR PATROL" as your last name for one tape and then a separate tape that has your actual last name on it. Let me know what you guys think of the coloring:
http://www.militarynames.com/customnavybluewebbednametapessewon.aspx (http://www.militarynames.com/customnavybluewebbednametapessewon.aspx)
Also, if anyone has any insight on where to order USAF occupational badges in various colors I would be grateful if you would post the link on this forum.
What size fount would we use?
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Quote from: youduho on May 06, 2016, 01:36:23 PM
What size fount would we use?
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Standard, also you could measure the side on your current BDU name tapes. Should measure to aprox. 3/4 inch.
https://www.nametags4u.com/product/?pid=1671
I used these guys after I saw the link somewhere on here. They already have silver on navy as an option but I have no idea if it's the right silver or something metallic.
I'd recommend getting the folded option. I got the unfolded because I figured it would be like the regular cloth badges that have an inch or so if fabric around it and it ended up being a square foot of cloth with the embroidery in the center.
I prefer fabric tapes over webbed and am keeping an eye out for the right color scheme.
Quote from: Jester on May 06, 2016, 01:39:56 PM
https://www.nametags4u.com/product/?pid=1671
I used these guys after I saw the link somewhere on here. They already have silver on navy as an option but I have no idea if it's the right silver or something metallic.
I'd recommend getting the folded option. I got the unfolded because I figured it would be like the regular cloth badges that have an inch or so if fabric around it and it ended up being a square foot of cloth with the embroidery in the center.
I prefer fabric tapes over webbed and am keeping an eye out for the right color scheme.
Thanks for the reply. I wish that they would give some more description on the "Dark Blue". However, I think we can all decipher what the silver is going to be like.
You do realize you're going to cause problems with these companies, right?
Quote from: NIN on May 06, 2016, 01:53:49 PM
You do realize you're going to cause problems with these companies, right?
Why is that? I ordered all of my USAF occupational badges in ultramarine blue for the BDU off of another site besides vanguard. Vanguard didn't offer them in the UM Blue so I took my business elsewhere. Why would name tapes be different?
I'm trying to figure out what cadet nco's are supposed to wear on the rank spot on the hook and loop fleece coat.
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Quote from: USAFRiggerGuy on May 06, 2016, 01:56:47 PM
Quote from: NIN on May 06, 2016, 01:53:49 PM
You do realize you're going to cause problems with these companies, right?
Why is that? I ordered all of my USAF occupational badges in ultramarine blue for the BDU off of another site besides vanguard. Vanguard didn't offer them in the UM Blue so I took my business elsewhere. Why would name tapes be different?
You're new to this CAP thing, ain'tcha... [emoji23]
Quote from: Mustang on May 06, 2016, 02:00:14 PM
Quote from: USAFRiggerGuy on May 06, 2016, 01:56:47 PM
Quote from: NIN on May 06, 2016, 01:53:49 PM
You do realize you're going to cause problems with these companies, right?
Why is that? I ordered all of my USAF occupational badges in ultramarine blue for the BDU off of another site besides vanguard. Vanguard didn't offer them in the UM Blue so I took my business elsewhere. Why would name tapes be different?
You're new to this CAP thing, ain'tcha... [emoji23]
Lol
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Quote from: USAFRiggerGuy on May 06, 2016, 01:56:47 PM
Why is that? I ordered all of my USAF occupational badges in ultramarine blue for the BDU off of another site besides vanguard. Vanguard didn't offer them in the UM Blue so I took my business elsewhere. Why would name tapes be different?
Unless your last name is "CIVIL AIR PATROL"...
1800nametape.com (Spur) is where I got my white on ultramarine army stuff. You're correct that Vanguard doesn't hold exclusivity on that.
But Spur, who used to do
really nice ultramarine nametapes (and for a nice price) and was my unit's primary vendor for nametapes years ago when the Bookstore was our supplier, got the ol' "cease and desist" letter. As did others. Especially those doing CAP Wings, as well.
Its the nature of the agreement. If CAP fails to enforce the agreements its made with its vendors on the enforcement of use of its marks, well, the legal folks can explain that better than I can.
Quote from: Mustang on May 06, 2016, 02:00:14 PM
Quote from: USAFRiggerGuy on May 06, 2016, 01:56:47 PM
Quote from: NIN on May 06, 2016, 01:53:49 PM
You do realize you're going to cause problems with these companies, right?
Why is that? I ordered all of my USAF occupational badges in ultramarine blue for the BDU off of another site besides vanguard. Vanguard didn't offer them in the UM Blue so I took my business elsewhere. Why would name tapes be different?
You're new to this CAP thing, ain'tcha... [emoji23]
Somewhat, but I hate the monopoly that Vanguard has.... So I look elsewhere if I can!
Quote from: NIN on May 06, 2016, 02:01:58 PM
Quote from: USAFRiggerGuy on May 06, 2016, 01:56:47 PM
Why is that? I ordered all of my USAF occupational badges in ultramarine blue for the BDU off of another site besides vanguard. Vanguard didn't offer them in the UM Blue so I took my business elsewhere. Why would name tapes be different?
Unless your last name is "CIVIL AIR PATROL"...
1800nametape.com (Spur) is where I got my white on ultramarine army stuff. You're correct that Vanguard doesn't hold exclusivity on that.
But Spur, who used to do really nice ultramarine nametapes (and for a nice price) and was my unit's primary vendor for nametapes years ago when the Bookstore was our supplier, got the ol' "cease and desist" letter. As did others. Especially those doing CAP Wings, as well.
Its the nature of the agreement. If CAP fails to enforce the agreements its made with its vendors on the enforcement of use of its marks, well, the legal folks can explain that better than I can.
I understand all of that, can't knock a guy for trying though. If they email me saying they can't do it then by all means I'll wait for VG to take 5 years to get the stuff out.... Maybe that's why they are giving us a 5 year phase period [emoji23]
Quote from: USAFRiggerGuy on May 06, 2016, 02:04:45 PM
Quote from: NIN on May 06, 2016, 02:01:58 PM
Quote from: USAFRiggerGuy on May 06, 2016, 01:56:47 PM
Why is that? I ordered all of my USAF occupational badges in ultramarine blue for the BDU off of another site besides vanguard. Vanguard didn't offer them in the UM Blue so I took my business elsewhere. Why would name tapes be different?
Unless your last name is "CIVIL AIR PATROL"...
1800nametape.com (Spur) is where I got my white on ultramarine army stuff. You're correct that Vanguard doesn't hold exclusivity on that.
But Spur, who used to do really nice ultramarine nametapes (and for a nice price) and was my unit's primary vendor for nametapes years ago when the Bookstore was our supplier, got the ol' "cease and desist" letter. As did others. Especially those doing CAP Wings, as well.
Its the nature of the agreement. If CAP fails to enforce the agreements its made with its vendors on the enforcement of use of its marks, well, the legal folks can explain that better than I can.
I understand all of that, can't knock a guy for trying though. If they email me saying they can't do it then by all means I'll wait for VG to take 5 years to get the stuff out.... Maybe that's why they are giving us a 5 year phase period [emoji23]
VG has been extremely on top of orders. My last one, including embroidery, was shipped in the neighborhood of 1-2 days.
In case you have not seen this, I saw this note in the NameTags4u site:
NOTICE:
What we CAN'T do:
We may no longer supply, sell, or manufacter manufacture any items relating to or containing reference to Civil Air Patrol or it's logos.
This includes but is not limited to items for specific squadrons that incorporate the C.A.P logo or badges in their design, BDU tapes, flightsuit nametags, hats, and patches containing civil air patrol badges either alone or in combination with stardard military badges regardless of availability, or lack thereof though C.A.P.
Please direct any and all questions on this matter to Civil Air Patrol Headquarters.
Quote from: USAFRiggerGuy on May 06, 2016, 02:04:45 PM
I understand all of that, can't knock a guy for trying though. If they email me saying they can't do it then by all means I'll wait for VG to take 5 years to get the stuff out.... Maybe that's why they are giving us a 5 year phase period [emoji23]
Well, if that nametag vendor didn't get a C&D letter before....
Producing new insignia for VG is as simple as changing the thread and the fabric in the machine.
They already have thread, fabric, nametape material and the pattern files.
I'd hazard that VG is ramped up in anticipation of the business, if for no other reason then the attention.
If you can't wait to get them, there are 100 vendors on the InterPipes that can and will make nametapes in any format you want,
including Amazon last time I checked.
Enter the appropriate AOL keyword and move on with the day.
I know VG won't make USAF occupational badges in other colors. I'm curious on the dark blue coloring and how it will relate to outside vendors producing USAF Occ badges for CAP members so they match
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Quote from: USAFRiggerGuy on May 06, 2016, 02:39:39 PM
I know VG won't make USAF occupational badges in other colors. I'm curious on the dark blue coloring and how it will relate to outside vendors producing USAF Occ badges for CAP members so they match
It doesn't and there's never been an issue with VG in this regard.
A: They aren't required on CAP uniforms, so if you want to wear them, it's on you, not them.
B: Those insignia are not restricted by public law in the way that CAP badges are. VG has an exclusive license
on badges and insignia which are CAP-specific, nothing else, as such, there are a handful of vendors
who feel like making military badges them in various colors with no issues. Again, AOL is your friend.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 06, 2016, 02:44:26 PM
Quote from: USAFRiggerGuy on May 06, 2016, 02:39:39 PM
I know VG won't make USAF occupational badges in other colors. I'm curious on the dark blue coloring and how it will relate to outside vendors producing USAF Occ badges for CAP members so they match
It doesn't and there's never been an issue with VG in this regard.
A: They aren't required on CAP uniforms, so if you want to wear them, it's on you, not them.
B: Those insignia are not restricted by public law in the way that CAP badges are. VG has an exclusive license
on badges and insignia which are CAP-specific, nothing else, as such, there are a handful of vendors
who feel like making military badges them in various colors with no issues. Again, AOL is your friend.
I totally get that. I'm just saying "Ultramarine Blue" is a more specific color to match than "Dark Blue" is when your using an outside vendor for occupational badges. You obviously want all the colors to match up.
Quote from: USAFRiggerGuy on May 06, 2016, 02:58:46 PMI totally get that. I'm just saying "Ultramarine Blue" is a more specific color to match than "Dark Blue" is when your using an outside vendor for occupational badges. You obviously want all the colors to match up.
On paper, yes. In real life, it'll never happen.
The stuff VG is producing now doesn't match as it is - color and material variations will alwyas mean stuff isn't exactly right.
A/C wings, as an example, aren't even close to the tapes they are making these days (not to mention they are cut and sewn
incorrectly and have to be unstititched and redone).
At the end of the day, just leave the military stuff for a military uniform, CAP stuff on CAP uniforms, and move on.
Here's my thoughts on going to another vendor to get the CIVIL AIR PATROL nametapes.
First: If I go to Bob's Nametapes to get a CIVIL AIR PATROL nametape, neither I, nor Bob's Nametapes are bound by CAP's agreement with Vanguard. We're not parties to the agreement and as such, the terms of the agreement are binding upon neither of us.
If Bob's Nametapes advertises that they can do CIVIL AIR PATROL nametapes, then CAP can make a claim against Bob's for using the CIVIL AIR PATROL name (effectively a trademark, although it's part of a private act [36 USC 40306] and not de jure a trademark) without authorization.
However, if I go to Bob's and type in ask them to make a CIVIL AIR PATROL nametape, that is the member directing the use of the name, not the vendor using the name in marketing or advertising.
Quote from: JeffDG on May 06, 2016, 03:14:28 PM
However, if I go to Bob's and type in ask them to make a CIVIL AIR PATROL nametape, that is the member directing the use of the name, not the vendor using the name in marketing or advertising.
An excellent point, and one which would likely get the whole C&D nonsense closed once and for all, however no one
in the position to help would want to bother because it's not worth their time.
It's no different then if I were to buy an embroidery machine and start producing tapes and insignia at cost for
my squadron. As a member I have the right to non-commercial use of the insignia and name, etc., for official use.
As has been pointed out on a number of occasions Spur was a CAP >sponsor<, and as a "thank you" they got on the blacklist.
Quote from: JeffDG on May 06, 2016, 03:14:28 PM
First: If I go to Bob's Nametapes to get a CIVIL AIR PATROL nametape, neither I, nor Bob's Nametapes are bound by CAP's agreement with Vanguard. We're not parties to the agreement and as such, the terms of the agreement are binding upon neither of us.
True enough, as far as Vanguard goes. But of course Federal law is kinda binding on both of you.
QuoteIf Bob's Nametapes advertises that they can do CIVIL AIR PATROL nametapes, then CAP can make a claim against Bob's for using the CIVIL AIR PATROL name (effectively a trademark, although it's part of a private act [36 USC 40306] and not de jure a trademark) without authorization.
If by "make a claim," you mean an injunction and a lawsuit for damages and to disgorge unlawful profits, I can only agree. I suspect Bob's Nametapes may find the prospect of audits, depositions, and assorted litigation stuff somewhat intimidating. And frankly, they should. Basing your business model on pirating the intellectual property of a charitable non-profit corporation should be clearly the wrong choice for any honest business person.
QuoteHowever, if I go to Bob's and type in ask them to make a CIVIL AIR PATROL nametape, that is the member directing the use of the name, not the vendor using the name in marketing or advertising.
I gotta disagree with you on this part. Members do not have any rights in the corporate name or logos. Only the corporation itself was granted that right by Federal law. You or I simply have no authority to permit or authorize a third party to make a product bearing the protected corporate name or logos. It doesn't matter whether it is for resale or personal use. There is no "private use" exception in the Federal law that would allow this.
Now, as a practical matter, I certainly grant you that CAP is unlikely to take any action or litigate matters involving "one-offs." It is not worth the time and effort, and frankly that kind of thing is not a real problem for the corporation to begin with.
But Bob the Businessman undoubtedly knows a thing or two about the marketplace he operates in, and is unlikely to risk problems by making profits out of someone else's IP.
Ned Lee
Former CAP Legal Officer
Quote from: Ned on May 06, 2016, 04:20:41 PM
But Bob the Businessman undoubtedly knows a thing or two about the marketplace he operates in, and is unlikely to risk problems by making profits out of someone else's IP.
OK, my point is, Bob the Businessman may have no clue that it's someone else's IP.
I can go on Amazon and order from any number of vendors where they simply have a box saying "Type what you want on the tape here..." Odds are, they have no clue who Civil Air Patrol is, and even if they do a Trademark search, they would find no trademark in the name. CAP's rights to the name is a de facto trademark, but it's not a de jure trademark (in that CAPs rights are the equivalent of a trademark, but it's not actually a mark under the Lanham Act, so Bob may even do reasonable due diligence and still not know of any infringement.
Quote from: JeffDG on May 06, 2016, 04:36:27 PM
OK, my point is, Bob the Businessman may have no clue that it's someone else's IP.
I can go on Amazon and order from any number of vendors where they simply have a box saying "Type what you want on the tape here..." Odds are, they have no clue who Civil Air Patrol is, and even if they do a Trademark search, they would find no trademark in the name. CAP's rights to the name is a de facto trademark, but it's not a de jure trademark (in that CAPs rights are the equivalent of a trademark, but it's not actually a mark under the Lanham Act, so Bob may even do reasonable due diligence and still not know of any infringement.
There are many Bob The Businessmen doing this kind of stuff (lets say its "vinyl cut decals" or custom printed decals) that specifically say "And we're not going to do copyrighted or trademarked items". All it takes is one letter from Warner Brothers or Bill Watterson's lawyer due to the awesome looking "Tasmanian Devil Rear Window Stickers" or "Calvin peeing on [insert something here]" to make Bob The Businessman realize he better head that off at the pass.
Here is a site that will do USAF Occupational Badges in Navy (Dark Blue) and Silver if anyone is interested. I got my UM blue ones done through these guys and they look great!
https://www.nametags4u.com (https://www.nametags4u.com)
Nametags4u has a disclaimer that says they will NOT make any tapes or badges that have CAP seals or logos.
The disclaimer continues with the message they will make any Air Force badge.
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on May 06, 2016, 06:36:29 PM
Nametags4u has a disclaimer that says they will NOT make any tapes or badges that have CAP seals or logos.
The disclaimer continues with the message they will make any Air Force badge.
Exactly, I got Navy Blue badges from then that are USAF occupational badges.
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on May 06, 2016, 06:36:29 PM
Nametags4u has a disclaimer that says they will NOT make any tapes or badges that have CAP seals or logos.
The disclaimer continues with the message they will make any Air Force badge.
Which is cricket, because CAP has a legitimate claim to those based on public law.
Whether or not they have a claim to the standard English language words "civil","air", and "patrol" is another matter,
and one which would probably have to be decided in a court of law - expensive for both sides considering the low ROI.
Or it could just Hakuna matata and worry about things that actually matter.
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on May 06, 2016, 06:36:29 PM
Nametags4u has a disclaimer that says they will NOT make any tapes or badges that have CAP seals or logos.
The disclaimer continues with the message they will make any Air Force badge.
So....Vanguard for the tape that says "CIVIL AIR PATROL" and the CAP badges and go somewhere else for the one with my last name (since I've ordered one for my work uniform from them that is identical to the CAP requirements) and my enlisted medical badge (in the event that I lose my mind and want another thing to sew on my uniform).
Then again, one could easily go to a company based in some third world ****hole and get them made. Good luck Vanguard in collecting your money from a country whose legal system is at the intersection of Corruption Boulevard and Nonexistent Avenue*. I believe that is what one calls a 'Pyrrhic victory'
*-Looking at you most of Africa, parts of Asia as well bits of Central and South America.
Quote from: KASSRCrashResearch on May 06, 2016, 07:18:48 PM
. Good luck Vanguard in collecting your money from a country whose legal system is at the intersection of Corruption Boulevard and Nonexistent Avenue*.
I can see that you are a relatively new participant here on CT, and possibly even new to CAP itself. Forgive my presumption, but based on this comment I think it is possible that you may not understand why CAP selected VG as our exclusive supplier of CAP-specific uniforms and insignia.
By way of background, for many, many years CAP arranged for the production and sale of our own insignia through the Bookstore (later CAPMart). Much of which we bought from Vanguard, BTW. But despite many attempts, restarts, and reconfiguration, CAP was not able to avoid losing many thousands of dollars in the process. Which had to be made up by dues money. Our leaders decided that running a warehouse and buying and selling insignia was not a core competency of the corporation and outsourced that function - after a competitive bidding process - to VG, one of the most experienced uniform and insignia companies in the world. The leadership took a money losing function and stopped the hemorrhaging of our dues money.
Wait, it gets better. As a condition of the exclusive marketing arrangement, VG also pays a licensing fee back to CAP that amounts to thousands of dollars yearly.
Also as a condition of the arrangement, VG is committed to sell the complete line of CAP uniforms and insignia, including some insignia that is very rarely used. The usual example we discuss here is something like a Master Character Development Instructor badge (SKU: CAP0763B - $9.50) which is a fairly complex insignia that has to be cast and have multiple colors of enamel applied.
I agree it would be fairly easy for essentially anyone with an embroidery machine to make and sell CAP tapes (SKU: CAP0599K, $1.85) for a price less than VG. But the problem with letting anyone skim the cream off the high-volume, low cost insignia is that the other, less often worn insignia, would then become "orphaned" and prohibitively expensive. Not even an off shore company could make and sell master CDI badges for a reasonable price when they find out that they might sell 3 dozen in a good year. Larger margins on high-volume things like CAP tapes and wing patches literally underwrites the expense of the "low-density" insignia like WWII service ribbons, Falcon Awards, and Master CDI badges.
The other problem with allowing anyone to produce our insignia, is that it would inevitably become a "race to the bottom" in terms of quality as price conscious parents and young cadets would tend to purchase the cheapest possible insignia without an appreciation of minimum standards of quality for things worn on a uniform. Moms and Dads just wouldn't know any better, and it is the cadet who would have to "pay."
The VG arrangement was -- and remains -- a substantial "win-win" for the membership. Prices remain about what they were when we ran the business and we have saved tens of thousands of dollars in dues money that we would otherwise have lost. Plus VG has returned thousands of dollars to CAP which has been used for everything from maintenance of the Blue Beret and Hawk facilities to flight scholarships for cadets.
VG contract is up for renewal periodically, and we track things like customer experiences. VG values our business and works hard to keep the members as happy as any retail business can.
I'm as price conscious as anyone. If I can buy something cheaper than at VG, I do so with little hesitation. I don't buy AF-style uniforms from them, for instance, because I can purchase cheaper on base. Not all members have convenient base access, of course, so VG remains a vital alternative that allows all members to purchase all uniforms and insignia with confidence that they will meet appropriate standards.
Ned Lee
Quote from: Ned on May 06, 2016, 09:13:52 PM
VG also pays a licensing fee back to CAP that amounts to thousands of dollars yearly.
Which is what give a lot of us heartburn. If there is money to return, the prices could be lowered.
Quote from: Ned on May 06, 2016, 09:13:52 PMbecause I can purchase cheaper on base. Not all members have convenient base access,
All members, by the verbiage of the AFIs, are supposed to, but that is something CAP has allowed to dry up and not pursue.
I recently spent $85.47 (plus shipping) for two uniforms - G/W and custom polo. I do this about once every 3-4 years. I probably won't buy again until it's time to buy a couple new sets of BDUs - a purchase that will probably run me $20 in tapes and insignia from VG, and $120 or so for two sets of Propper BBDUs from a different source.
It's not like we're spending $300/yr on uniforms here. You buy a uniform, and yes, you might spend anywhere from $50-100 on it. But then you wear it for three years and don't think about it again until it's time to replace. In the grand scheme I really don't think you're going to be able to give a significant enough discount on every single item that it makes it worth the loss of thousands per year to various programs.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 06, 2016, 09:32:03 PM
Quote from: Ned on May 06, 2016, 09:13:52 PMbecause I can purchase cheaper on base. Not all members have convenient base access,
All members, by the verbiage of the AFIs, are supposed to, but that is something CAP has allowed to dry up and not pursue.
Yeah, geez. Thanks BRAC & al Qaeda
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Quote from: NIN on May 06, 2016, 09:48:48 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 06, 2016, 09:32:03 PM
Quote from: Ned on May 06, 2016, 09:13:52 PMbecause I can purchase cheaper on base. Not all members have convenient base access,
All members, by the verbiage of the AFIs, are supposed to, but that is something CAP has allowed to dry up and not pursue.
Yeah, geez. Thanks BRAC & al Qaeda
I seriously doubt either of the above had much to do with CAP members being able to shop at
AAFES, considering we did so for years at the height of several wars.
Quote from: Ned on May 06, 2016, 09:13:52 PMit is possible that you may not understand why CAP selected VG as our exclusive supplier of CAP-specific uniforms and insignia
I understand. I have no real problem with Vanguard other than their customer service sucking more than a Shop-Vac a considerable amount of the time (based on my experience with them during my time in the AF).
Quote from: EclipseWhich is what give a lot of us heartburn. If there is money to return, the prices could be lowered.
^This. No offense but if someone's getting a tax write-off for MY money (which is what that is for Vanguard since CAP is a nonprofit), I prefer it to be me.
Another uniform change, ABU now, what is next in 4 years, 511 ?? Bottom Line, Uniform change has Vangards name all over it. One thing going to ABUs, OK, Fine, but we now can not even use our name tags, rank, badges, CRAZY, As volunteers, can only afford so much, There is NO REASON, why we can not use our current name tags , etc, Save some money, Wish I had a multi color sharpie. Crazy to get rid of all our tags, rank, etc. Talk about insult to injury. Someone is NOT thinking about the Volunteers wallet. For sure. Wear the blue BBDU, until it rots off my body, SMILE
I've had good experience with Vanguard's customer service. And while most of their items are overpriced (yes, I understand their obligation to supply rarely purchased insignias and their need to make a profit), my biggest issue is not with their higher prices, but with the quality and inconsistency of their uniform insignias.
Quote from: Airborne on May 06, 2016, 10:48:02 PM
Another uniform change, ABU now, what is next in 4 years, 511 ?? Bottom Line, Uniform change has Vangards name all over it. One thing going to ABUs, OK, Fine, but we now can not even use our name tags, rank, badges, CRAZY, As volunteers, can only afford so much, There is NO REASON, why we can not use our current name tags , etc, Save some money, Wish I had a multi color sharpie. Crazy to get rid of all our tags, rank, etc. Talk about insult to injury. Someone is NOT thinking about the Volunteers wallet. For sure. Wear the blue BBDU, until it rots off my body, SMILE
...
If the name tapes, cutouts, and "CIVIL AIR PATROL" tapes cost more than $10 in total... I'd be quite surprised.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 06, 2016, 09:32:03 PM
Quote from: Ned on May 06, 2016, 09:13:52 PM
VG also pays a licensing fee back to CAP that amounts to thousands of dollars yearly.
Which is what give a lot of us heartburn. If there is money to return, the prices could be lowered.
Logically and obviously the prices
could be lower on items that VG pays us the licensing fee, but since most retailers including VG base prices on multiple factors beyond simple "cost plus margin", there is no reason to believe that the prices
would be any lower. We simply have relatively little control over their pricing in specific items. Restated, although VG pays us something like 8 cents for every $1.85 CAP tape sold, there is no reason to believe that they would start selling them for $1.77 if the licensing fee went away. (And then we would have to find an alternative income stream for the funds. I'm assuming you would not support a dues increase.)
Quote
Quote from: Ned on May 06, 2016, 09:13:52 PMbecause I can purchase cheaper on base. Not all members have convenient base access,
All members, by the verbiage of the AFIs, are supposed to, but that is something CAP has allowed to dry up and not pursue.
[/quote]
I don't think the "allowed it to dry up and not pursue" comment is accurate or fair.
The problem is not a simple one. Many members (it's hard to get hard data on this) don't live near enough to have access to MCSS even if there were no restrictions on base access. This is a magic combination of geography and BRAC that will likely get worse before it gets better. ORWG, for example, does not have a single active military installation in the state.
Second, Darin is right that base access has been significantly tightened in recent years, and individual base commanders have significant discretion as to who is allowed on. As long as AF commanders have significant discretion as to who gets onto their base and under what conditions, it should not be surprising that CAP is treated somewhat differently at different bases in terms of ID required, vehicle passes, etc. Aggravating the problem is growing reliance / default to the DBIDS scanner system. CAP does not have the kind of government ID that is recognized by the scanners, and various local work-arounds have been developed. I have never experienced a base access issue, but clearly see reports here on CT that others have.
I have personally spoken about this issue to not only the CAP-USAF commander, but also the 1stAF/AFNORTH commander. The BoG has clearly engaged our AF colleagues on the issue. A lot of work and effort is ongoing.
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on May 06, 2016, 10:58:43 PM
Quote from: Airborne on May 06, 2016, 10:48:02 PM
Another uniform change, ABU now, what is next in 4 years, 511 ?? Bottom Line, Uniform change has Vangards name all over it. One thing going to ABUs, OK, Fine, but we now can not even use our name tags, rank, badges, CRAZY, As volunteers, can only afford so much, There is NO REASON, why we can not use our current name tags , etc, Save some money, Wish I had a multi color sharpie. Crazy to get rid of all our tags, rank, etc. Talk about insult to injury. Someone is NOT thinking about the Volunteers wallet. For sure. Wear the blue BBDU, until it rots off my body, SMILE
...
If the name tapes, cutouts, and "CIVIL AIR PATROL" tapes cost more than $10 in total... I'd be quite surprised.
Don't be ruining a perfectly good rant with facts and logic. It is what makes CAPTALK such a beloved source of information for our CAP leaders. :)
It is also why almost no one ever admits that they are on the uniform committee.
Quote from: Ned on May 06, 2016, 11:08:31 PM(And then we would have to find an alternative income stream for the funds. I'm assuming you would not support a dues increase.)
I don't believe it has ever been stated that these returns go towards reducing member dues. If so, by how much per person, specifically? On the occasions when any detail has been provided,
the funds were dispersed to a facility which benefits very few members and is controversial in its own right, and some of the funds were dispersed
for discretionary spending to individual wings.
CAP. on the mean, is a self-funded situation with activities that should be revenue neutral. Members should not be put in the position of subsidizing things they aren't involved in through
a back-door tax at the vendor CAP presents as the single-source for uniforms.
As to the pricing question - that's why you have experienced people who make the agreements and decide if things are equitable.
Member benevolence should never be squandered or assumed. This does both.
Quote from: Ned on May 06, 2016, 11:08:31 PM
I don't think the "allowed it to dry up and not pursue" comment is accurate or fair.
The problem is not a simple one. Many members (it's hard to get hard data on this) don't live near enough to have access to MCSS even if there were no restrictions on base access. This is a magic combination of geography and BRAC that will likely get worse before it gets better. ORWG, for example, does not have a single active military installation in the state.
AAFES access for CAP members has very little to do with MCSS access on military bases.
Members for nearly two decades were able to place telephone orders to AAFES, this was never a smooth process,
and their were hoops to jump through, but it worked.
Then one day, with no explanation or even announcement, and only discovered by random members who were being turned away, they couldn't.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 06, 2016, 09:53:41 PM
Quote from: NIN on May 06, 2016, 09:48:48 PM
Yeah, geez. Thanks BRAC & al Qaeda
I seriously doubt either of the above had much to do with CAP members being able to shop at AAFES, considering we did so for years at the height of several wars.
Member access to AAFES MCSS (locally) is somewhat limited by proximity to a base containing an MCSS carrying USAF uniforms (hence the term "BRAC") or base-specific security measures that limit CAP access to only those on an access list, or possibly not at all ("Thanks, al Qaeda!"). Pre-9/11, getting on base for a clothing sales run was only slightly more difficult than going to IKEA for many.
Unless you're referring to online ordering via AAFES, at which point I hope you're going to tell me you just took a job with the contractor that handles DEERS integration for AAFES and all our problems are solved.
My overarching point is that access to AAFES for CAP members isn't something that someone in Bldg 714 is just sitting on cuz they hate the membership.
It is limited to a high degree by the aforementioned factors.
None of which are under CAP's direct control.
(And then I read Ned's last comment, which reminds me to read ALL the replies before replying. Durrrr)
Quote from: NIN on May 07, 2016, 12:31:51 AM
Member access to AAFES MCSS (locally) is somewhat limited by proximity to a base containing an MCSS carrying USAF uniforms (hence the term "BRAC") or base-specific security measures that limit CAP access to only those on an access list, or possibly not at all ("Thanks, al Qaeda!"). Pre-9/11, getting on base for a clothing sales run was only slightly more difficult than going to IKEA for many.
Unless you're referring to online ordering via AAFES, at which point I hope you're going to tell me you just took a job with the contractor that handles DEERS integration for AAFES and all our problems are solved.
I'm not buying the BRAC / 911 part of this - the number of bases in my wing, nor the surrounding ones relevent, hasn't changed since well before this century or
the world got exciting. BRAC was primarily a Clinton era thing, and my state lost a major USAF presence, but that had nothing to do with buying
uniforms from AAFES, and happened while the year started with "19".
Yes - I am literally talking about AAFES ordering, which could be worked out if there was command imperative, which there clearly isn't.
They competed directly with Vanguard, still do. The math on this isn't hard to do.
"Hey, we're hearing Rosie won't take phone orders from CAP members anymore..."
"Meh, the VG guys aren't happy about that as it is, leave it be."
Done.
I get it, these are complicated problems that require effort and creativity to fix. That's why some members get
stars and eagles on their shoulders.
With retention in the tank, questions of mission and purpose on the table, and regs and curriculum a hot mess,
the focus when you get CSAF attention is ABUs and NCOs. So be it, but don't be surprised when members, especially
FNGs ask legitimate questions about the focus of effort.
And as long as we're here...
"2.As a result of negotiations with the Army & Air Force Exchange Services (AAFES), CAP
has also been approved to receive a significant number of excess ABUs. This will allow
many CAP members to receive the basic ABU shirt and pants at no cost. We are currently
working with AAFES to take possession of the excess uniforms and each Wing is establishing
a distribution plan. We expect these uniforms to be available to members in the field this
summer."So apparently CAP
is capable of negotiating with AAFES, just not fixing the issue, but here's something that
is more concerning, the use of the term "members" twice.
I read that as to include not only cadets, but senior members as well, and based on sizes, probably primarily.
So Joe Donuts has to go out and buy a new set of CFUs, but Jimmy Veg gets a free uniform?
Tack that onto the "issues' list regarding retention, spirit and initiative.
Starfleet, Airborne-
The combined tapes and badges will cost more than $10 with taxes and postage included.
However I doubt very much the color change was a sinister Vanguard plot to take all our money. ;D
If the uniform committee suggested it, it must have been for a reason.
Quote from: Ned on May 06, 2016, 09:13:52 PM
The usual example we discuss here is something like a Master Character Development Instructor badge (SKU: CAP0763B - $9.50) which is a fairly complex insignia that has to be cast and have multiple colors of enamel applied. ... Larger margins on high-volume things like CAP tapes and wing patches literally underwrites the expense of the "low-density" insignia like WWII service ribbons, Falcon Awards, and Master CDI badges.
I don't doubt that for a minute. But I think that locks us into a situation in which we can't demand performance and quality (see below).
Quote from: Ned on May 06, 2016, 09:13:52 PMThe other problem with allowing anyone to produce our insignia, is that it would inevitably become a "race to the bottom" in terms of quality as price conscious parents and young cadets would tend to purchase the cheapest possible insignia without an appreciation of minimum standards of quality for things worn on a uniform. Moms and Dads just wouldn't know any better, and it is the cadet who would have to "pay."
With respect, Ned, we members "pay" now via poor-quality items which we *must* buy and wear without any alternative.
Without disputing the overall benefit of the agreement as you've described it, this particular point above rankles me: Vanguard may well have "an appreciation of minimum standards of quality," but certainly does not evince that appreciation in the items it produces for us. I have pictures (which I have posted on CT previously) showing three sets of Captain's shoulder marks, each purchased within months of each other and each with markedly different lengths, widths, geometry, thread color, weight and weave. I have also posted pictures of leather name tags for flying clothing that were cartoonishly bad, with over- or under-sized wings and images or even distorted lines. Commander's Insignia for BDUs generally look like knots left behind by a sewing-machine accident; cloth-patch Observer wings are often indistinguishable from MP wings. My ground team badge wreath looks like an earthworm wrapped around the tri-prop. Details in relief on metal insignia are often indistinct, and backing pins arrive bent or off-center, making alignment on your shirt difficult.
A call to customer service invariably produces a pleasant, polite and sincere effort to rectify the problem...but still often requires weeks (or in the case of my leather jacket patch, seven months) to supply a replacement product. In the case of the shoulder marks, the problem has simply never been resolved. I'm willing to chalk it up to a "bad batch" every once in awhile, but with this level of consistent poor quality something needs to change -- telling members that it's up to them to ask serially for replacements is not the right answer.
Quote from: Ned on May 06, 2016, 09:13:52 PMVG contract is up for renewal periodically, and we track things like customer experiences. VG values our business and works hard to keep the members as happy as any retail business can.
For some time I have intended to send a memo through channels to the Uniform Committee with a cc to Ms. Parker asking for a thorough review of quality standards attached to the Vanguard agreement and for consideration of adding a requirement to the contract that items meet the equivalent USAF mil-spec for colors and workmanship. I think now is the right time.
According to the Institute of Heraldry, Vanguard is certified to produce to IOH standards for thread, weights, color, etc., which means they have demonstrated the capability to meet those standards. It's also clear that VG often does not apply that same standard of care in producing CAP items -- often enough that the stories have taken on an apocryphal quality. VG's USAF Captain's shoulder marks are $15 and ours are $9. Personally I'd pay the extra six bucks for shoulder marks that don't look home-made. Holding our sole-source vendor to a minimum standard of repeatable quality is something NHQ can and should do on behalf of the members, who really can't do this effectively on their own.
The agreement as you've outlined it has much to recommend it; but that doesn't preclude us from re-examining the terms and considering something better. The documentable atrocious quality of many items purchased by members, who, importantly, have no alternative, suggests it's time to seek improvements.
Gentlemen, Has anyone checked Vanguards web page lately?? They already are offering Senior Rank for the new ABU's. Basically they are using the same number and changing the last two letters. Example, CAP0467K (for BDU) is now CAP0467KC (for ABU) price is the same $1.10 a set.
As I had said to NIN a few days ago, I am sure Vanguard has been in the loop since our Big Brothers and Sisters in the AF approached CAP, and said CAP would you change to our uniform with the proper adjustments?. Vanguard has the equipment to do the embroidering on site. we have some 70,000 members - those of us who don't meet H&W standards.
I don't want to risk showing up to my unit, SAREX, or Encampment and look out of touch by being a color off. i had asked NIN about using a non CAP vendor, his reply was the same as a well respected BIRD COL in CAP and former Wing Commander, (a friend, and mentor)
Tread Lightly.... 8)
Quote from: Rob the supply guy on May 07, 2016, 03:04:48 AM
Gentlemen, Has anyone checked Vanguards web page lately?? They already are offering Senior Rank for the new ABU's. Basically they are using the same number and changing the last two letters. Example, CAP0467K (for BDU) is now CAP0467KC (for ABU) price is the same $1.10 a set.
As I had said to NIN a few days ago, I am sure Vanguard has been in the loop since our Big Brothers and Sisters in the AF approached CAP, and said CAP would you change to our uniform with the proper adjustments?. Vanguard has the equipment to do the embroidering on site. we have some 70,000 members - those of us who don't meet H&W standards.
I don't want to risk showing up to my unit, SAREX, or Encampment and look out of touch by being a color off. i had asked NIN about using a non CAP vendor, his reply was the same as a well respected BIRD COL in CAP and former Wing Commander, (a friend, and mentor)
Tread Lightly.... 8)
I already bought some navy blue rank for my ABU!
Quote from: Rob the supply guy on May 07, 2016, 03:04:48 AM
Gentlemen, Has anyone checked Vanguards web page lately?? They already are offering Senior Rank for the new ABU's. Basically they are using the same number and changing the last two letters. Example, CAP0467K (for BDU) is now CAP0467KC (for ABU) price is the same $1.10 a set.
Those are for the corporate flight uniform. Which has been around for several years, at least.
Quote from: arajca on May 07, 2016, 03:13:16 AM
Quote from: Rob the supply guy on May 07, 2016, 03:04:48 AM
Gentlemen, Has anyone checked Vanguards web page lately?? They already are offering Senior Rank for the new ABU's. Basically they are using the same number and changing the last two letters. Example, CAP0467K (for BDU) is now CAP0467KC (for ABU) price is the same $1.10 a set.
Those are for the corporate flight uniform. Which has been around for several years, at least.
And they use WHITE thread and not the called for silver.
Quote from: PHall on May 07, 2016, 04:04:01 AM
Quote from: arajca on May 07, 2016, 03:13:16 AM
Quote from: Rob the supply guy on May 07, 2016, 03:04:48 AM
Gentlemen, Has anyone checked Vanguards web page lately?? They already are offering Senior Rank for the new ABU's. Basically they are using the same number and changing the last two letters. Example, CAP0467K (for BDU) is now CAP0467KC (for ABU) price is the same $1.10 a set.
Those are for the corporate flight uniform. Which has been around for several years, at least.
And they use WHITE thread and not the called for silver.
They will work for 2LT or Major.... Anyways, I think we got off track on the original reason for this thread! Haha
Quote from: Eclipse on May 07, 2016, 12:50:51 AM
I'm not buying the BRAC / 911 part of this - the number of bases in my wing, nor the surrounding ones relevent, hasn't changed since well before this century or the world got exciting. BRAC was primarily a Clinton era thing, and my state lost a major USAF presence, but that had nothing to do with buying uniforms from AAFES, and happened while the year started with "19".
[I'll probably get a mod smackdown for this, but oh well. -NIN]
Bob, you're talking out of your food exit portal here.
Base Realignments (and other "turbulence" in installations and facilities as a result) isn't just a Clinton-era thing. Realignments of installations, downsizing of AAFES facilities, etc are the fallout of several BRAC rounds The last BRAC round was 2005 and even the 1995 BRAC cuts were still being implemented well into 2001 and beyond. Plus, other realignments not specifically directed by BRAC as it was made clear that things were redundant, etc. But points for nice use of hyperbole there.
Spend 20 minutes on the AAFES website and you'll see that over the years they've consolidated the facilities and services so much that even an active duty military member can't get what they need at their local facility unless its "the big base."
I can give you two examples, there are undoubtedly more at other locations around the country:
Local ANG Base (a little over an hour away from me)
The dinky little Exchange on the ANG base used to have two full "aisles" of actual MCSS uniform stuff in one corner. We'd go there as part of encampment and just decimate their stock, so much to the point where I'd call the facility manager a month before encampment and give her the dates we'd be there so they could stock up on all the stuff cadets might buy.
In the mid-2000s or so, they reduced that MCSS footprint to about a 12 or 14 ft length of wall space with "common sizes" of service coats, trousers & utility uniforms (maybe 8-10 items in each category, male & female, etc). Turn around and there is a head-high corresponding set of shelves and peg racks of insignia and accessories, flight caps and shoes. 2 kinds of shoes, 2 kinds of boots, that sort of thing. (the "wall-o-snivel gear" got bigger as I recall, go figure)
But never mind that: You can't gain access to the ANG part of the facility anyway if you're not on the local unit's base access list. So great, you go thru all the hassle to get added to the list, drive all the way over there, are given the stink-eye at the gate because there is nothing CAP going on that day that they know of, and then walk in to the Exchange to find that you now have a larger selection of uniform items & sizes at the local Goodwill. "We can order that stuff for you and you can pick it up, if you want. We'll have it in just a day or so."
And that was before I retired from CAP in 2009. Now? That ANG base has an AAFES Express and its my understanding that the available military clothing has been reduced to even less stuff.
Small AF Base (about 90 minutes from here in a neighboring state):
Forget getting on the base if you're not part of the local unit. I'm still trying to crack that nut (and I'm actually much closer today than I was). We used to take uniform trips down here as part of our unit's BCT program. We'd take CAP vehicles since POVs were always a pain to get on base. Apparently during the 4 years I was retired, "Things Changed" and getting on the base became even more impossible difficult.
The MCSS was a small stand-alone facility on the base. Last time I was there, before we lost the ability to easily access the base, we literally rolled up in two 12-pax vans, and the only thing missing was "Moved, Left No Forwarding Address" on the door. After a brief search, the MCSS was located in a corner of the newly refurbished Exchange. So now the stink-eye came from the card-checker at the door of the Exchange, and after having to explain the "Civil What Patrol?" a couple times, we learned that the "New MCSS" had about 1/3 - 1/2 the selection at the previous MCSS (it was like a super-sized version of the ANG "outpost" MCSS mentioned above). "We can order that for you and you can come pick it up.."
So at least in my neck of the woods, physical access to MCSS facilities has been hampered by the downsizing of both bases and the AAFES/MCSS retail footprint as a result of facility realignment and AAFES internal changes.
Heck, the Army post that wasn't quite as far as the Air Force Base has a nice MCSS, but too bad its all Army & Marine stuff (but even then, it went from being a sleepy Army fort to a sleepy "reserve enclave" on the former fort and then the enclave was redesignated as a fort with lots of new spending on security measures... Good luck getting on post there, too, but if you do, all you can do is order AF stuff)
Now, alongside all this (and likely driving a lot of it) is the rise of the Internet and the ability for far-flung service members to get their "boots and utes" online via AAFES.com instead of AAFES having to stock and man a little MCSS at Burpleson Air Force Base. Thats just good business practices, unfortunately for us.
QuoteYes - I am literally talking about AAFES ordering, which could be worked out if there was command imperative, which there clearly isn't. They competed directly with Vanguard, still do. The math on this isn't hard to do.
"Hey, we're hearing Rosie won't take phone orders from CAP members anymore..."
"Meh, the VG guys aren't happy about that as it is, leave it be."
Done.
I get it, these are complicated problems that require effort and creativity to fix. That's why some members get stars and eagles on their shoulders.
Wait, wat? Do you seriously expect us to believe that its a conspiracy to funnel sales to Vanguard?
(http://www.snopes.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/chemtrails-photo.jpg)
But hey, thats OK. Its far easier to point at a vast underground conspiracy and accuse the leadership of sitting on their hands than it is to understand a business process issue at AAFES that we've been trying (unsuccessfully) to solve. For years.
Remember, the reason phone ordering got to be such a pain is that AAFES had to keep sort of a "separate list," since they manage eligibility to purchase for military members with the DoD DEERS system. And we're not in DEERS. So you had to call and get set up.
And I suspect that the number of phone orders that came in for CAP was so vanishingly small that AAFES basically couldn't build any sort of a business case around expending resources to enable a more streamlined process. And, while they were busy downsizing their phone bank in the face of the increase in online ordering (need less people answering phones) the whole "who CAP is, and how they get to order from AAFES" angle never really entered into the picture for the AAFES managers and directors making decisions.
I can almost hear the meeting: "OK, well, our phone order volume has dropped from 1000 calls a day to about 200. We anticipate it will drop further once the new AAFES.com online ordering system goes online. So we'll be downsizing our call center operations from 25 operators to 5 and streamlining the system that gives them screen pops in the ordering system from DEERS to cut down the time-per-call.."
And nowhere in there did a voice say "But what about CAP orders?" Again, because our phone orders were such a small percentage, and I bet there were like 1-2 people in the call center who even knew what CAP stood for.
So that capability was essentially lost to the ravages of time and downsizing (I'm sure you can still do it, but I suspect its still the gigantic pain it was beforehand..)
And the access to online ordering requires more than just "effort and creativity." You say that like "If someone actually cared, they could do it." You don't think CAP and CAP-USAF haven't engaged AAFES on this in the past?
And then, knowing how these kinds of meetings go, I bet the conversations that took place sounded approximately like this:
CAP: "So, once again, how do we get to online ordering for our membership?"
AAFES: "AAFES uses DEERS to determine eligibility in the online system."
CAP: "Right, we've been over this with your predecessors. We're not in DEERS.."
AAFES: "Well, guess you're not eligible."
CAP: "Isn't there something we can work out?"
AAFES: "Well, can you give us a list of your members?"
CAP: "Uhhhh, hmmm, well, we have to be a little careful about that cuz some of it is protected info, etc. But sure, lets say we can do that. How about we shoot you a member listing every month?"
AAFES: "Every month? That sounds like a lot of work. We're already cutting positions and asking people to do more. How about once a year? How big is your membership?"
CAP: "About 55 or 60,000 people. Some of those are cadets, so its really their parents who would be ordering, not the cadet, using a credit card with a different name, and that sort of thing. And we have people who join and quit all the time, so the list changes some on a monthly basis."
AAFES: "Monthly? Are you crazy? How can we be expected to keep up with that?"
CAP: "Couldn't you just import it into your system? We'll send you a big Excel file or a CSV or something."
AAFES: "Thats going to require customization of our software to handle your membership. Like, an extensive customization. One thats not in our IT development budget for this fiscal year. And not the next one, either. This really isn't a priority for us. Come back in a year and maybe we'll talk. Or talk to the DoD about getting into DEERS."
Rinse and repeat.
CAP can push all it wants. CAP-USAF can push all it wants. AAFES is its own organization. Like CAP is. If AAFES says "yeah, sorry, not a priority for us. If you can find the dollar signs to make it happen, we're all ears, but we have our own masters to answer to" you're still up a creek.
Do I think this should be fixed? Totally. And I'm sure it eventually will be. There are a lot of moving parts and you have to get to the right people who have their hands on the right budget items at the right time to say all the right things. Or maybe it a larger issue of integration into DEERS and DBIDS (*cough* Total Force!)
Should this rise to the level of, say, SECAF involvement? God, I hope not. The SECAF has way bigger fish to fry. But I bet this gets brought up frequently to the Manpower & Reserve Affairs people, and in some ways with all the recent engagements with HQ AF, the Secretariat and all the Total Force-ish-ness, along with this move to ABUs and AAFES involvement in that, I suspect someone higher up is going to realize "Hey, wait a minute, you guys can't get your uniforms like Air National Guard & Reserve people can? Thats a problem. Lemme make some phone calls."
To add another blush to this rose: I bet Vanguard can't sell legit milspec ABUs like AAFES can.
(Side Note: Some DEERS-enabled people I know, active/reserve and retired, have tried online ordering of AF ABUs with AAFES. Ready for your next wrinkle? If you're not Air Force, you can't order Air Force uniforms online thru AAFES. Some retirees can't order uniforms at all, some can order the uniform of their service but not ABUs. Holy inconsistency, batman)
Quote
With retention in the tank, questions of mission and purpose on the table, and regs and curriculum a hot mess, the focus when you get CSAF attention is ABUs and NCOs. So be it, but don't be surprised when members, especially FNGs ask legitimate questions about the focus of effort.
Retention isn't exactly "in the tank," but keep telling yourself that if it helps you craft a compelling narrative to paint the organization in whatever light you prefer. Don't let facts get in the way of your conspiracy theories and vague knowledge of what you *think* the leadership is or is not focused on.
Retention is getting better, and has been for awhile, and while its surely "not great" in some areas (*cough* First Term Cadets), you're not going to see double digit improvements because of access to MCSS online. There are improvements being made on all fronts that affect this. It takes time and (so far) there is no magic bullet item that we've identified that will make it 'all better'.
Quote
And as long as we're here...
"2.As a result of negotiations with the Army & Air Force Exchange Services (AAFES), CAP
has also been approved to receive a significant number of excess ABUs. This will allow
many CAP members to receive the basic ABU shirt and pants at no cost. We are currently
working with AAFES to take possession of the excess uniforms and each Wing is establishing
a distribution plan. We expect these uniforms to be available to members in the field this
summer."
So apparently CAP is capable of negotiating with AAFES, just not fixing the issue, but here's something that is more concerning, the use of the term "members" twice.
Working with AAFES to get excess ABUs (I'm honestly not briefed on how AAFES is involved, but it may be related to their proximity to a large source of excess ABUs and their nationwide logistics network) is not the same as being able to fix a larger structural issue with AAFES's online ordering process. Don't conflate the two.
QuoteSo Joe Donuts has to go out and buy a new set of CFUs, but Jimmy Veg gets a free uniform?Tack that onto the "issues' list regarding retention, spirit and initiative.
Sure. And S'Member Bufftone has to buy his own AF-style blues, while C/Amn Bagodounts gets a free voucher for them.
Whats your point? Are you the Bernie Sanders of uniform re-distirbution schemes? The world isn't fair. People have been responsible for their own uniforms, in varying degrees, for years. Some units were really good at securing old BDUs from the ANG & ARNG over the years. Does that mean they didn't care about their CFU-clad members?
I think you're reading too much into the use of the word "members" here. But it may well get down to "Here, your unit has 100 members today. You get 150% of your membership in ABU pants and shirts in varying sizes. Do with these what you will, unit, but give cadets the first crack at them, and try to recover them when people leave, mmkay?" or "Your unit got 200 sets of used ABUs from your local ANG unit 2 years ago that you've been sitting on, so we're not going to send you any in this first round."
But we don't know yet, because, like you, we're still waiting to find out. As your quoted paragraph also says "We are currently working with AAFES to take possession of the excess uniforms and each Wing is establishing a distribution plan."
So the commander's intent in this area isn't clear yet. There will likely be additional guidance. And every wing is a little different, so they may well be allowed to "adjust fire" based on their specific circumstances in their specific area.
Not all of CAP looks exactly like the Greater Chicagoland Area, Bob.
(Great post, but as an aside, please point out that the panel joke is a fake, from an Embraer ERJ 145! Last thing we need is our more literal-minded, unquestioning members thinking that's a real panel)!
Cheers
Spam
Quote from: Spam on May 07, 2016, 03:34:32 PM
(Great post, but as an aside, please point out that the panel joke is a fake, from an Embraer ERJ 145! Last thing we need is our more literal-minded, unquestioning members thinking that's a real panel)!
Cheers
Spam
But it is a "real" panel!!!! It's on the internet! >:D
Quote from: NIN on May 07, 2016, 03:17:22 PMRetention isn't exactly "in the tank," but keep telling yourself that if it helps you craft a compelling narrative to paint the organization in whatever light you prefer. Don't let facts get in the way of your conspiracy theories and vague knowledge of what you *think* the leadership is or is not focused on.
A net loss as of today of at
least 2000 members in less then one fiscal year - that is the very definition of "in the tank", especially in light of the fact that
that doesn't accommodate those who have self-selected to no longer, or have never participate(d), yet still inexplicably write a check, not to mention
the annual churn that you yourself have indicated may be as high as 41% for cadets.
The organization is at its lowest level of Senior members in the 16 years, and hasn't seen this few cadets since 2009. Without senior members,
the cadets aren't coming back, because the seniors are the continuity of the organization that keeps the doors open for cadets who are by nature transient.
How that isn't the singular focus of everyone in a leadership position at every level continues to astound me.
Quote from: PHall on May 07, 2016, 03:58:10 PM
Quote from: Spam on May 07, 2016, 03:34:32 PM
(Great post, but as an aside, please point out that the panel joke is a fake, from an Embraer ERJ 145! Last thing we need is our more literal-minded, unquestioning members thinking that's a real panel)!
Cheers
Spam
But it is a "real" panel!!!! It's on the internet! >:D
And I'm a French Model. (There, I said it, its on the Internet, ergo its true).
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/UJfswSLU4a8/hqdefault.jpg)
And who are we to doubt the internet! >:D
Quote from: Eclipse on May 06, 2016, 09:32:03 PM
Quote from: Ned on May 06, 2016, 09:13:52 PM
VG also pays a licensing fee back to CAP that amounts to thousands of dollars yearly.
Which is what give a lot of us heartburn. If there is money to return, the prices could be lowered.
Amounts to a "stealth dues increase".
Members are required to pay more for items, and the money is funneled to NHQ.
Quote from: Rob the supply guy on Yesterday at 09:04:48 PM
Gentlemen, Has anyone checked Vanguards web page lately?? They already are offering Senior Rank for the new ABU's. Basically they are using the same number and changing the last two letters. Example, CAP0467K (for BDU) is now CAP0467KC (for ABU) price is the same $1.10 a set.
Those are for the corporate flight uniform. Which has been around for several years, at least.
OOPs and that's why I had to start over from the bottom....I'm proof you can try and teach an old dog new tricks. I should be thankful that I made 1st LT again after 30 years...
I wish Vanguard would use the same yellow thread they use for Navy and Coast Guard insignias for CAP's 2d Lt and Maj grades. The orange thread they use just looks off.
Maybe we should all just wear Polo Shirts for Seniors with name and rank stitched on, and silk screen t shirts for the cadets. On the front a big Hello My Name Is....and a spot they can write their names in marker. On the back its says Civil Air Patrol...The biggest secret in America, with the logo..... >:D
Quote from: Rob the supply guy on May 08, 2016, 02:51:47 AM
Maybe we should all just wear Polo Shirts for Seniors with name and rank stitched on, and silk screen t shirts for the cadets. On the front a big Hello My Name Is....and a spot they can write their names in marker. On the back its says Civil Air Patrol...The biggest secret in America, with the logo..... >:D
Great idea as long as the t-shirts are orange! >:D
Cadets excluded for the most part, for those
members airmen that
choose to move to the ABU; as mentioned exhaustively, the nametapes, badges, and ranks all have to be upgraded.
But additionally, all those squadrons across the great land have effectively had their uber-awesome squadron hats trashed, along with the black t-shirts, and belts. The sole headgear is the ABU patrol cap, tan t-shirt, and belt. ???
Quote
T-Shirt – A standard Desert Tan short or long sleeved t-shirt will be worn under the ABU coat.
Tan?
Quote
Belt. A standard Desert Tan belt will be worn.
What is 'standard', anyway?
Quote
Headgear. The ABU cap is the only authorized headgear with this uniform.
As mentioned in a number of posts and threads regarding
member airman access to MCSS, how hard is it to post up civilian market alternatives with regard to t-shirts color, and belt style/color. Also, there is no mention on what constitutes a 't-shirt' - Crew neck, V-neck, or tank. Ribbed or smooth. 100% cotton or poly-cotton.
The timing of this whole thing is interesting as the local surplus store no longer carries surplus woodland and the other area surplus stores have closed. eBay is also showing a lack of surplus woodland bdu items as well.
As I recall, the USPS has or had a number of items, like footwear, that were/are specifically marked as approved for USPS use. Why couldn't CAP do something like that? I'm sure if companies are producing an acceptable product, they might be willing to include our logo on the packaging as approved for wear by USAF Auxiliary
members airmen.
Pretty sure I'll be retired and done with CAP when this becomes mandatory in 2021, if not sooner. :clap:
Quote from: LTC Don on May 09, 2016, 02:45:13 PM
The timing of this whole thing is interesting as the local surplus store no longer carries surplus woodland and the other area surplus stores have closed. eBay is also showing a lack of surplus woodland bdu items as well.
Searching "bdu" on ebay provides 46,755 listings, adding the qualified "woodland" reduces that to "only" 758, not to mention eleventy-twelveteen other online retailers.
I just went through the 39-1, and t-shirts associated with the BDU, FDU, and CFU are fully described as to style, color, and proper wear. The only thing new in the ICL is the tan color for the ABU.
Quote from: SarDragon on May 09, 2016, 06:43:40 PM
I just went through the 39-1, and t-shirts associated with the BDU, FDU, and CFU are fully described as to style, color, and proper wear. The only thing new in the ICL is the tan color for the ABU.
It's not even an ICL yet. Let's wait and see what the actual ICL will say.
Quote from: LTC Don on May 09, 2016, 02:45:13 PM
As I recall, the USPS has or had a number of items, like footwear, that were/are specifically marked as approved for USPS use. Why couldn't CAP do something like that? I'm sure if companies are producing an acceptable product, they might be willing to include our logo on the packaging as approved for wear by USAF Auxiliary members airmen.
The AFI / AFMAN used to be far more specific about this than it is now.
However
QuoteAFI 36-2903, para 1.5.1.1 Purchase clothing items from the Army and Air Force Exchange Service (AAFES) Military Clothing Sales Stores (MCSS) supplied by the Defense Supply Center Philadelphia (DSCP).
There used to be reference to the design and specification of uniforms (ie. the MILSPEC). Just looking at the 1989 version of CAPM 39-1, the language specified: "[...] When uniforms are worn, they must be clean, neat, correct in
design and specification [...]" (Emphasis mine)
A little further on, ah, here it is in the new manual, too:
Quote
1.3.3. Commercial Sources.
1.3.3.1. When purchasing uniform clothing from commercial sources, the following should
be kept in mind: All USAF uniform garments, footwear, and accoutrements that the Defense Personnel
Support Center (DPSC) supplies to AAFES military clothing sales stores (MCSS) and conform to USAF
specifications; AAFES also may obtain for sale in MCSS a variety of required and optional uniform items
from commercial vendors. These items are sold under normal AAFES merchandising procedures. All
uniform items must display a USAF certification label.
1.3.3.2. Members who buy uniform items from other than AAFES MCSSs should check the
reliability of the seller and make sure each garment has an USAF certification label. Members must be
careful about buying from commercial sources. The articles may have been rejected by government
buyers, may not conform to specifications, or may be in the process of being phased out. Uniform items
that do not meet USAF specifications are not authorized for wear. Each uniform item must have this label
sewn or stamped on permanently: "USAF CERTIFICATE NO _______. A sample of this item has been
inspected and meets or exceeds the quality prescribed by AF Specification _____."
Its been a long time since I've seen the AF Specifications for, say, Shade 1549 trousers or whatever. But the AF had "standards" that said, for example, what the specifications were for.. say, shoes. Black, full grain leather, box toe, no cap, etc, etc.
These are what specify that boots are supposed to be, say, 8" from floor to top or whatever. So when some guy shows up with high-top Nikes, you can say "yeah, uh, no..."
So just look for AF certification. That is the correct "standard"
BTW, I meant to say in this thread:
Lets not jump the gun. There is positively no reason for everybody to be running out and sourcing nametapes and grade insignia from "other vendors than Vanguard" just because Vanguard won't have stuff ready for purchase until 15 JUN.
If you buy accouterments from Vanguard when the time comes, those are "as specified" (yes, even if they're not 'perfect'..).
Quote1.2.3.4. Vanguard is the authorized vendor for CAP insignia. Items sold through the "Civil
Air Patrol" section of the Vanguard webpage are those approved for wear on the CAP uniform. Members
who buy uniform items from other vendors may not meet CAP regulations, and commanders may direct
the removal of these items from the uniform if they do not meet standards for design, size, material, etc.
If you buy from "Joe Blow's Nametag and Tattoo Emporium" and then, oh, look, their shade of grey, or dark blue is different from Vanguard's, then the word is "Take it off, it doesn't match."
So you're just asking to shoot yourself in the foot by jumping the gun. You're not gonna die if you're not the first guy in the country to wear ABUs on 15 June.
Quote from: stillamarine on May 09, 2016, 06:56:55 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on May 09, 2016, 06:43:40 PM
I just went through the 39-1, and t-shirts associated with the BDU, FDU, and CFU are fully described as to style, color, and proper wear. The only thing new in the ICL is the tan color for the ABU.
It's not even an ICL yet. Let's wait and see what the actual ICL will say.
ICL, letter - just a bunch of letters on paper. :angel: >:D
Quote from: NIN on May 09, 2016, 08:08:39 PM
BTW, I meant to say in this thread:
Lets not jump the gun. There is positively no reason for everybody to be running out and sourcing nametapes and grade insignia from "other vendors than Vanguard" just because Vanguard won't have stuff ready for purchase until 15 JUN.
If you buy accouterments from Vanguard when the time comes, those are "as specified" (yes, even if they're not 'perfect'..).
Quote1.2.3.4. Vanguard is the authorized vendor for CAP insignia. Items sold through the "Civil
Air Patrol" section of the Vanguard webpage are those approved for wear on the CAP uniform. Members
who buy uniform items from other vendors may not meet CAP regulations, and commanders may direct
the removal of these items from the uniform if they do not meet standards for design, size, material, etc.
If you buy from "Joe Blow's Nametag and Tattoo Emporium" and then, oh, look, their shade of grey, or dark blue is different from Vanguard's, then the word is "Take it off, it doesn't match."
So you're just asking to shoot yourself in the foot by jumping the gun. You're not gonna die if you're not the first guy in the country to wear ABUs on 15 June.
This is especially on point considering how many people comment on the price of uniforms, tapes, and cutouts. Why take a chance to spend even more money on chancy gear?
Quote from: Ned on May 06, 2016, 11:08:31 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 06, 2016, 09:32:03 PM
Quote from: Ned on May 06, 2016, 09:13:52 PM
VG also pays a licensing fee back to CAP that amounts to thousands of dollars yearly.
Which is what give a lot of us heartburn. If there is money to return, the prices could be lowered.
Logically and obviously the prices could be lower on items that VG pays us the licensing fee, but since most retailers including VG base prices on multiple factors beyond simple "cost plus margin", there is no reason to believe that the prices would be any lower. We simply have relatively little control over their pricing in specific items. Restated, although VG pays us something like 8 cents for every $1.85 CAP tape sold, there is no reason to believe that they would start selling them for $1.77 if the licensing fee went away. (And then we would have to find an alternative income stream for the funds. I'm assuming you would not support a dues increase.)
Quote
Quote from: Ned on May 06, 2016, 09:13:52 PMbecause I can purchase cheaper on base. Not all members have convenient base access,
All members, by the verbiage of the AFIs, are supposed to, but that is something CAP has allowed to dry up and not pursue.
I don't think the "allowed it to dry up and not pursue" comment is accurate or fair.
The problem is not a simple one. Many members (it's hard to get hard data on this) don't live near enough to have access to MCSS even if there were no restrictions on base access. This is a magic combination of geography and BRAC that will likely get worse before it gets better. ORWG, for example, does not have a single active military installation in the state.
Second, Darin is right that base access has been significantly tightened in recent years, and individual base commanders have significant discretion as to who is allowed on. As long as AF commanders have significant discretion as to who gets onto their base and under what conditions, it should not be surprising that CAP is treated somewhat differently at different bases in terms of ID required, vehicle passes, etc. Aggravating the problem is growing reliance / default to the DBIDS scanner system. CAP does not have the kind of government ID that is recognized by the scanners, and various local work-arounds have been developed. I have never experienced a base access issue, but clearly see reports here on CT that others have.
I have personally spoken about this issue to not only the CAP-USAF commander, but also the 1stAF/AFNORTH commander. The BoG has clearly engaged our AF colleagues on the issue. A lot of work and effort is ongoing.
[/quote]
I was able to order from AAFES online just a year ago and now when I try to login I get a message that my ID is no longer authorized. I called their customer service and spent the better part of an hour talking with someone. What I got from that conversation is that AAFES changed their requirements for ordering online and over the phone. Everyone needs to be on DEERS to place an order and CAP is not in that system. I pointed to their website that clearly says CAP is an exception and allowed to order. No matter what I said her supervisor just came back and said sorry. We can't order online or over the phone. When I asked how I was supposed to order our new uniforms I was told to visit www.vanguardmil.com to which I laughed. Seriously? We're going to make a run to Travis AFB in a couple weeks and hopefully we are allowed to still purchase at the MCS location on base. I've got to believe something isn't right but it's hard to argue with them when they hold all the cards. Not being able to order from VG until June 15th is nonsensical too. We can wear the uniform starting June 15 but won't have the ability to purchase the mandatory items until then as well. This makes it impossible to actually wear them within the regs on their effective date. Why not allow people to order now and at least be ready when they date comes? We're going to end up with a rush of thousands of CAP'rs all ordering on June 15th and there being a huge backlog because they are swamped. Just defies logic that's all.
Quote from: Ned on May 06, 2016, 09:13:52 PM
The other problem with allowing anyone to produce our insignia, is that it would inevitably become a "race to the bottom" in terms of quality...
Hard to imagine the quality getting any worse than some of the garbage VG has produced of late. I get that a large part of the blame for this lays at NHQ's feet for failing to produce meaningful specifications, but a company like Vanguard (and N.S. Meyer, which VG absorbed awhile back) which has been producing military insignia for over a century knows or SHOULD know the quality level we're after. If it wouldn't be good enough for the USAF, it shouldn't be good enough for CAP.
Quote from: majdomke on May 13, 2016, 06:47:58 AM
Quote from: Ned on May 06, 2016, 11:08:31 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 06, 2016, 09:32:03 PM
Quote from: Ned on May 06, 2016, 09:13:52 PM
VG also pays a licensing fee back to CAP that amounts to thousands of dollars yearly.
Which is what give a lot of us heartburn. If there is money to return, the prices could be lowered.
Logically and obviously the prices could be lower on items that VG pays us the licensing fee, but since most retailers including VG base prices on multiple factors beyond simple "cost plus margin", there is no reason to believe that the prices would be any lower. We simply have relatively little control over their pricing in specific items. Restated, although VG pays us something like 8 cents for every $1.85 CAP tape sold, there is no reason to believe that they would start selling them for $1.77 if the licensing fee went away. (And then we would have to find an alternative income stream for the funds. I'm assuming you would not support a dues increase.)
Quote
Quote from: Ned on May 06, 2016, 09:13:52 PMbecause I can purchase cheaper on base. Not all members have convenient base access,
All members, by the verbiage of the AFIs, are supposed to, but that is something CAP has allowed to dry up and not pursue.
I don't think the "allowed it to dry up and not pursue" comment is accurate or fair.
The problem is not a simple one. Many members (it's hard to get hard data on this) don't live near enough to have access to MCSS even if there were no restrictions on base access. This is a magic combination of geography and BRAC that will likely get worse before it gets better. ORWG, for example, does not have a single active military installation in the state.
Second, Darin is right that base access has been significantly tightened in recent years, and individual base commanders have significant discretion as to who is allowed on. As long as AF commanders have significant discretion as to who gets onto their base and under what conditions, it should not be surprising that CAP is treated somewhat differently at different bases in terms of ID required, vehicle passes, etc. Aggravating the problem is growing reliance / default to the DBIDS scanner system. CAP does not have the kind of government ID that is recognized by the scanners, and various local work-arounds have been developed. I have never experienced a base access issue, but clearly see reports here on CT that others have.
I have personally spoken about this issue to not only the CAP-USAF commander, but also the 1stAF/AFNORTH commander. The BoG has clearly engaged our AF colleagues on the issue. A lot of work and effort is ongoing.
I was able to order from AAFES online just a year ago and now when I try to login I get a message that my ID is no longer authorized. I called their customer service and spent the better part of an hour talking with someone. What I got from that conversation is that AAFES changed their requirements for ordering online and over the phone. Everyone needs to be on DEERS to place an order and CAP is not in that system. I pointed to their website that clearly says CAP is an exception and allowed to order. No matter what I said her supervisor just came back and said sorry. We can't order online or over the phone. When I asked how I was supposed to order our new uniforms I was told to visit www.vanguardmil.com (http://www.vanguardmil.com) to which I laughed. Seriously? We're going to make a run to Travis AFB in a couple weeks and hopefully we are allowed to still purchase at the MCS location on base. I've got to believe something isn't right but it's hard to argue with them when they hold all the cards. Not being able to order from VG until June 15th is nonsensical too. We can wear the uniform starting June 15 but won't have the ability to purchase the mandatory items until then as well. This makes it impossible to actually wear them within the regs on their effective date. Why not allow people to order now and at least be ready when they date comes? We're going to end up with a rush of thousands of CAP'rs all ordering on June 15th and there being a huge backlog because they are swamped. Just defies logic that's all.
[/quote]
Welcome to the Military's way of doing things. hahaha
I'm betting they roll out is the same date as the authorization because people WOULD order early AND wear it.
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 06:22:33 PM
I'm betting they roll out is the same date as the authorization because people WOULD order early AND wear it.
Which is/was poor planning. If the authorization date is 15 June, then they should be available prior to that. Otherwise, they force members who can't/won't wait to look for alternative vendors.
The other issue Vanguard may encounter is mass ordering, which will result in weeks of backorders, pushing the wear date even farther.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 15, 2016, 01:50:10 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 06:22:33 PM
I'm betting they roll out is the same date as the authorization because people WOULD order early AND wear it.
Which is/was poor planning. If the authorization date is 15 June, then they should be available prior to that. Otherwise, they force members who can't/won't wait to look for alternative vendors.
The other issue Vanguard may encounter is mass ordering, which will result in weeks of backorders, pushing the wear date even farther.
It doesn't
force anybody to do anything.
Just because the uniform is authorized for wear as of 15 June doesn't compel you to actually have to wear it ON 15 June.
Nobody's getting extra points for being the first to wear ABUs in their AO. Seriously.
So why the rush to buy potentially unauthorized, or at least potentially non-compliant, insignia? If you don't have ABUs set up until 15 July, oh well. Its not that big of a deal.
Whatever happened to doing things right the first time?
Quote from: NIN on May 15, 2016, 03:13:12 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 15, 2016, 01:50:10 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 06:22:33 PM
I'm betting they roll out is the same date as the authorization because people WOULD order early AND wear it.
Which is/was poor planning. If the authorization date is 15 June, then they should be available prior to that. Otherwise, they force members who can't/won't wait to look for alternative vendors.
The other issue Vanguard may encounter is mass ordering, which will result in weeks of backorders, pushing the wear date even farther.
It doesn't force anybody to do anything.
Just because the uniform is authorized for wear as of 15 June doesn't compel you to actually have to wear it ON 15 June.
Nobody's getting extra points for being the first to wear ABUs in their AO. Seriously.
So why the rush to buy potentially unauthorized, or at least potentially non-compliant, insignia? If you don't have ABUs set up until 15 July, oh well. Its not that big of a deal.
Whatever happened to doing things right the first time?
That is the question I want answered!!! Not just CAP, but DoD wide. Seems like everyone wants to leave their mark on uniform designs, and what changes they were able to make. I see it working for the US Navy (federal Employee), the Army and Air Force (Part-time State Employee). Seems like every 6 moths a new uniform policy come up with some new change to make the uniform a little different now that they are in command. It even stretches to DoD civilian Firefighters and Police Officers, seems like we change uniforms every year.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 15, 2016, 01:50:10 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 06:22:33 PM
I'm betting they roll out is the same date as the authorization because people WOULD order early AND wear it.
Which is/was poor planning. If the authorization date is 15 June, then they should be available prior to that. Otherwise, they force members who can't/won't wait to look for alternative vendors.
The other issue Vanguard may encounter is mass ordering, which will result in weeks of backorders, pushing the wear date even farther.
Which they would be more ok with than people wearing it early.
If people wear prior to the authorized wear date then that's something they should be disciplined for. Don't punish everyone for the few morons out there.
Quote from: majdomke on May 15, 2016, 04:58:06 PM
If people wear prior to the authorized wear date then that's something they should be disciplined for. Don't punish everyone for the few morons out there.
How are you being punished?
Quote from: NIN on May 15, 2016, 03:13:12 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 15, 2016, 01:50:10 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 06:22:33 PM
I'm betting they roll out is the same date as the authorization because people WOULD order early AND wear it.
Which is/was poor planning. If the authorization date is 15 June, then they should be available prior to that. Otherwise, they force members who can't/won't wait to look for alternative vendors.
The other issue Vanguard may encounter is mass ordering, which will result in weeks of backorders, pushing the wear date even farther.
It doesn't force anybody to do anything.
Just because the uniform is authorized for wear as of 15 June doesn't compel you to actually have to wear it ON 15 June.
Nobody's getting extra points for being the first to wear ABUs in their AO. Seriously.
So why the rush to buy potentially unauthorized, or at least potentially non-compliant, insignia? If you don't have ABUs set up until 15 July, oh well. Its not that big of a deal.
Whatever happened to doing things right the first time?
So what do you do when a new member joins in June, but can't wear ABUs he or she already has for another month because the required tapes are unavailable? What happens if they join this month? Do you make them get BDUs?
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 15, 2016, 05:42:27 PM
So what do you do when a new member joins in June, but can't wear ABUs he or she already has for another month because the required tapes are unavailable? What happens if they join this month? Do you make them get BDUs?
Same thing that happens now...it takes at least a few weeks to outfit themselves.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 15, 2016, 05:42:27 PM
Quote from: NIN on May 15, 2016, 03:13:12 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 15, 2016, 01:50:10 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 06:22:33 PM
I'm betting they roll out is the same date as the authorization because people WOULD order early AND wear it.
Which is/was poor planning. If the authorization date is 15 June, then they should be available prior to that. Otherwise, they force members who can't/won't wait to look for alternative vendors.
The other issue Vanguard may encounter is mass ordering, which will result in weeks of backorders, pushing the wear date even farther.
It doesn't force anybody to do anything.
Just because the uniform is authorized for wear as of 15 June doesn't compel you to actually have to wear it ON 15 June.
Nobody's getting extra points for being the first to wear ABUs in their AO. Seriously.
So why the rush to buy potentially unauthorized, or at least potentially non-compliant, insignia? If you don't have ABUs set up until 15 July, oh well. Its not that big of a deal.
Whatever happened to doing things right the first time?
So what do you do when a new member joins in June, but can't wear ABUs he or she already has for another month because the required tapes are unavailable? What happens if they join this month? Do you make them get BDUs?
Are we talking Cadet or Senior here? Cadet, if you have a set of BDU's you can issue them, then do it. They can wear them until 2021.
Senior, give them the options and let them decide.
Quote from: PHall on May 15, 2016, 05:58:37 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 15, 2016, 05:42:27 PM
Quote from: NIN on May 15, 2016, 03:13:12 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 15, 2016, 01:50:10 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 06:22:33 PM
I'm betting they roll out is the same date as the authorization because people WOULD order early AND wear it.
Which is/was poor planning. If the authorization date is 15 June, then they should be available prior to that. Otherwise, they force members who can't/won't wait to look for alternative vendors.
The other issue Vanguard may encounter is mass ordering, which will result in weeks of backorders, pushing the wear date even farther.
It doesn't force anybody to do anything.
Just because the uniform is authorized for wear as of 15 June doesn't compel you to actually have to wear it ON 15 June.
Nobody's getting extra points for being the first to wear ABUs in their AO. Seriously.
So why the rush to buy potentially unauthorized, or at least potentially non-compliant, insignia? If you don't have ABUs set up until 15 July, oh well. Its not that big of a deal.
Whatever happened to doing things right the first time?
So what do you do when a new member joins in June, but can't wear ABUs he or she already has for another month because the required tapes are unavailable? What happens if they join this month? Do you make them get BDUs?
Are we talking Cadet or Senior here? Cadet, if you have a set of BDU's you can issue them, then do it. They can wear them until 2021.
Senior, give them the options and let them decide.
Not every unit has BDUs to issue and we can't compel a member to buy a uniform that's being replaced. Even if the unit has BDUs available, they still have to buy ultramarine tapes for it. My point is that if tapes and insignias were not going to be available for a while, CAP could've pushed the date another month or two to give both Vanguard and our members time to prepare for the transition. That said, transitions are always challenging in the beginning and we'll just have to deal with it as we go.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 15, 2016, 05:42:27 PM
Quote from: NIN on May 15, 2016, 03:13:12 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 15, 2016, 01:50:10 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 06:22:33 PM
I'm betting they roll out is the same date as the authorization because people WOULD order early AND wear it.
Which is/was poor planning. If the authorization date is 15 June, then they should be available prior to that. Otherwise, they force members who can't/won't wait to look for alternative vendors.
The other issue Vanguard may encounter is mass ordering, which will result in weeks of backorders, pushing the wear date even farther.
It doesn't force anybody to do anything.
Just because the uniform is authorized for wear as of 15 June doesn't compel you to actually have to wear it ON 15 June.
Nobody's getting extra points for being the first to wear ABUs in their AO. Seriously.
So why the rush to buy potentially unauthorized, or at least potentially non-compliant, insignia? If you don't have ABUs set up until 15 July, oh well. Its not that big of a deal.
Whatever happened to doing things right the first time?
So what do you do when a new member joins in June, but can't wear ABUs he or she already has for another month because the required tapes are unavailable? What happens if they join this month? Do you make them get BDUs?
Edge case. I'm not talking about that guy. I'm talking about everybody wanting to run out and get tapes right now before 15 June. Tapes that might not be the right colors, etc.
Breathe, everybody.
Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
The BDUs are good for another 5 years. It's really not an issue.
Quote from: PHall on May 15, 2016, 05:58:37 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 15, 2016, 05:42:27 PM
Quote from: NIN on May 15, 2016, 03:13:12 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 15, 2016, 01:50:10 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 06:22:33 PM
I'm betting they roll out is the same date as the authorization because people WOULD order early AND wear it.
Which is/was poor planning. If the authorization date is 15 June, then they should be available prior to that. Otherwise, they force members who can't/won't wait to look for alternative vendors.
The other issue Vanguard may encounter is mass ordering, which will result in weeks of backorders, pushing the wear date even farther.
It doesn't force anybody to do anything.
Just because the uniform is authorized for wear as of 15 June doesn't compel you to actually have to wear it ON 15 June.
Nobody's getting extra points for being the first to wear ABUs in their AO. Seriously.
So why the rush to buy potentially unauthorized, or at least potentially non-compliant, insignia? If you don't have ABUs set up until 15 July, oh well. Its not that big of a deal.
Whatever happened to doing things right the first time?
So what do you do when a new member joins in June, but can't wear ABUs he or she already has for another month because the required tapes are unavailable? What happens if they join this month? Do you make them get BDUs?
Are we talking Cadet or Senior here? Cadet, if you have a set of BDU's you can issue them, then do it. They can wear them until 2021.
Senior, give them the options and let them decide.
Cadet or senior is irrelevant as far as issuing uniforms. I regularly issue uniforms to both.
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 15, 2016, 06:38:20 PM
The BDUs are good for another 5 years. It's really not an issue.
They may be good for 5 years, but since they're being phased out, you can't make anyone buy them.
Quote from: arajca on May 15, 2016, 07:15:55 PM
Quote from: PHall on May 15, 2016, 05:58:37 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 15, 2016, 05:42:27 PM
Quote from: NIN on May 15, 2016, 03:13:12 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 15, 2016, 01:50:10 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 06:22:33 PM
I'm betting they roll out is the same date as the authorization because people WOULD order early AND wear it.
Which is/was poor planning. If the authorization date is 15 June, then they should be available prior to that. Otherwise, they force members who can't/won't wait to look for alternative vendors.
The other issue Vanguard may encounter is mass ordering, which will result in weeks of backorders, pushing the wear date even farther.
It doesn't force anybody to do anything.
Just because the uniform is authorized for wear as of 15 June doesn't compel you to actually have to wear it ON 15 June.
Nobody's getting extra points for being the first to wear ABUs in their AO. Seriously.
So why the rush to buy potentially unauthorized, or at least potentially non-compliant, insignia? If you don't have ABUs set up until 15 July, oh well. Its not that big of a deal.
Whatever happened to doing things right the first time?
So what do you do when a new member joins in June, but can't wear ABUs he or she already has for another month because the required tapes are unavailable? What happens if they join this month? Do you make them get BDUs?
Are we talking Cadet or Senior here? Cadet, if you have a set of BDU's you can issue them, then do it. They can wear them until 2021.
Senior, give them the options and let them decide.
Cadet or senior is irrelevant as far as issuing uniforms. I regularly issue uniforms to both.
I assume that's if you have them. Not every unit has uniforms they can issue or in the right size.
Quote from: NIN on May 15, 2016, 06:38:20 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 15, 2016, 05:42:27 PM
Quote from: NIN on May 15, 2016, 03:13:12 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 15, 2016, 01:50:10 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 06:22:33 PM
I'm betting they roll out is the same date as the authorization because people WOULD order early AND wear it.
Which is/was poor planning. If the authorization date is 15 June, then they should be available prior to that. Otherwise, they force members who can't/won't wait to look for alternative vendors.
The other issue Vanguard may encounter is mass ordering, which will result in weeks of backorders, pushing the wear date even farther.
It doesn't force anybody to do anything.
Just because the uniform is authorized for wear as of 15 June doesn't compel you to actually have to wear it ON 15 June.
Nobody's getting extra points for being the first to wear ABUs in their AO. Seriously.
So why the rush to buy potentially unauthorized, or at least potentially non-compliant, insignia? If you don't have ABUs set up until 15 July, oh well. Its not that big of a deal.
Whatever happened to doing things right the first time?
So what do you do when a new member joins in June, but can't wear ABUs he or she already has for another month because the required tapes are unavailable? What happens if they join this month? Do you make them get BDUs?
Edge case. I'm not talking about that guy. I'm talking about everybody wanting to run out and get tapes right now before 15 June. Tapes that might not be the right colors, etc.
Breathe, everybody.
Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
Exactly. You were quick to reply to my post even though I was referring in part to "that [or those] guy
". The issue is practically non-existing for members who already have uniform they can wear.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 15, 2016, 07:26:51 PM
Quote from: NIN on May 15, 2016, 06:38:20 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 15, 2016, 05:42:27 PM
Quote from: NIN on May 15, 2016, 03:13:12 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 15, 2016, 01:50:10 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 13, 2016, 06:22:33 PM
I'm betting they roll out is the same date as the authorization because people WOULD order early AND wear it.
Which is/was poor planning. If the authorization date is 15 June, then they should be available prior to that. Otherwise, they force members who can't/won't wait to look for alternative vendors.
The other issue Vanguard may encounter is mass ordering, which will result in weeks of backorders, pushing the wear date even farther.
It doesn't force anybody to do anything.
Just because the uniform is authorized for wear as of 15 June doesn't compel you to actually have to wear it ON 15 June.
Nobody's getting extra points for being the first to wear ABUs in their AO. Seriously.
So why the rush to buy potentially unauthorized, or at least potentially non-compliant, insignia? If you don't have ABUs set up until 15 July, oh well. Its not that big of a deal.
Whatever happened to doing things right the first time?
So what do you do when a new member joins in June, but can't wear ABUs he or she already has for another month because the required tapes are unavailable? What happens if they join this month? Do you make them get BDUs?
Edge case. I'm not talking about that guy. I'm talking about everybody wanting to run out and get tapes right now before 15 June. Tapes that might not be the right colors, etc.
Breathe, everybody.
Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
Exactly. You were quick to reply to my post even though I was referring in part to "that guy", or better yet, those guys and gals. The issue is practically non-existing for members who already have uniforms they can wear.
Since cadets aren't required to be in a complete uniform until their first promotion, you can wait for ABUs to be fully ready. Not to mention, a complete uniform could be their blues which are not changing. Bottom line for ABUs and those who question people wanting to jump right in... they are going to be an excellent recruiting tool and some people just like to stay fresh. If you want to wear your BDUs until 2021 then go right ahead. That's between you and your commander. Cadets are very excited about this and it will boost esprit de corps big time. If ABUs stimulate recruiting then I'm all for them. Get them anyway you can then do your best to sell them on the benefits and keep them in as long as you can. ABUs for seniors I imagine has a lot to do with no longer looking like some bastard step child anymore. I have to admit this past 9 months Gen Vasquez has done a great job getting CAP feeling more like we're part of the team. I'm sure others were involved but we didn't really start feeling it until after he took command. Kudos to him and his team for making us feel like we are part of the team.
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Your suggestion re Blues will not work for most city cadets. They will not receive their Blues uniform voucher until after Curry which is their first promotion. So now, no complete ABU untill who knows when? If they are joining now, will have to look for BDUs which will be like throwing away money.
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on May 15, 2016, 11:27:07 PM
Your suggestion re Blues will not work for most city cadets. They will not receive their Blues uniform voucher until after Curry which is their first promotion. So now, no complete ABU untill who knows when? If they are joining now, will have to look for BDUs which will be like throwing away money.
Not really.....statistically speaking....almost all of those cadets will have quit CAP before they HAVE TO wear ABUs.
Quote from: lordmonar on May 15, 2016, 11:35:03 PM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on May 15, 2016, 11:27:07 PM
Your suggestion re Blues will not work for most city cadets. They will not receive their Blues uniform voucher until after Curry which is their first promotion. So now, no complete ABU untill who knows when? If they are joining now, will have to look for BDUs which will be like throwing away money.
Not really.....statistically speaking....almost all of those cadets will have quit CAP before they HAVE TO wear ABUs.
Agreed. But even if they were to go ahead and get the ABU's and begin wearing them on the start date (new cadets without their tapes) I can't imagine a senior member berating them for not having a complete uniform as a fresh cadet, and if you do your job with the cadets you wouldn't need to worry about them saying anything either. My squadron, it seems to take the new cadets about a month to get their first set of uniforms done. I think that's more than enough time, and we can do what we need to to make due until the phase in period begins.
The auto-panic isn't really needed. We make due, we stay flexible. Semper Gumby my friends.
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on May 15, 2016, 11:27:07 PM
Your suggestion re Blues will not work for most city cadets. They will not receive their Blues uniform voucher until after Curry which is their first promotion. So now, no complete ABU untill who knows when? If they are joining now, will have to look for BDUs which will be like throwing away money.
What is a "city cadet" vs a regular cadet? If you are following regs then you will collecting blues from the cadets who quit and have somewhat of a supply to help outfit your new cadets. I'm pretty sure the regs say blues are required where BDUs and ABUs are optional because of cost and lack of free uniform program for them. This may be hard for some squadrons to take in because all they ever wear are
BDUs. Make blues the priority and then utilities if they can afford or get supplied.
City cadets are cadets from the poorer sections of cities.
Or are you telling me that all cadets have the same resources?
That's one of the major reasons we have the curry uniform program and previously the free uniform through AAFES. Are you saying you have no supply at all? We all have cadets in our squadron that have limited means. Our squadron has only been around for 6 years and yet we have a sizable collection of uniforms. Why? Because we took advantage of the old AAFES program and made sure every new cadet ordered a uniform. Then, when they quit or outgrew them, we made sure we recovered them. We also took in donations from former service members through a uniform sales website that is no longer in business. Now, we will start building our collection of used ABU's. In then end, it is the squadron commander who must determine how to deal with the new uniforms and when to start rolling them out. I've already sat down with my staff and made a game plan. Of course things may change as we all wait to see how many uniforms being donated from AAFES actually make it down to the little people and also what the cloth insignia from Vanguard looks like. One of my deputies already made a trip up to our local, 120 mile away, AF base and picked up some ABU's from the uniform store. Each base usually has a thrift store or Airman's Attic. You'll need to check with them about CAP taking items. I know our local base doesn't allow just anyone to come in and take free uniforms but there is a contact from the local CAP squadron who can get them if we ask.
Our problem is that the one Air Force base in our area can be hit up by at least 25 units, both cadet and senior. My guess is that the closest one would have already hit them up. Our next option would be one of the many JROTC units, but that may be a dry well too.
Just think...greater Atlanta area and we're starving for ABUs already. Maybe. Possibly. Or I just don't know what I'm talking about and will shut my pie hole because I didn't do my research.
On the other hand, according to someone I talked to, people don't ETS out of Dobbins ARB anymore. The closest surplus store there has about 8 to 10 full sets of ABUs and a few more woodland BDUs.
So. We'll see what happens. I'm sure eBay is going to turn into a dry well for a while come June 15. US Patriot Tactical has a decent supply and occasionally they do closeout sales on selected ABUs.
But, as mentioned before, until I lose the front-mounted food processing and storage unit, I ain't wearing anything but the polo/tactical pants.
Most of the crap on eBay is the old style that is very hot and thick. The new stuff AAFES is selling are 50/50 ripstop. Most of what's online is 100% cotton twill or the special ripstop for electrical work. Very hard to find 50/50 nyco ripstop and when you do they want $60 ea. It's only like $35 on base. Probably going to be $70 at Vanguard. Let's just hope every squadron gets so much supply we can avoid the base or online. Of course, the stuff they are sending us is most likely the old stock 100% cotton twill. Might be fine in northern states but never going to work here in California or southern states.
Quote from: majdomke on May 16, 2016, 11:40:25 PM
Most of the crap on eBay is the old style that is very hot and thick. The new stuff AAFES is selling are 50/50 ripstop. Most of what's online is 100% cotton twill or the special ripstop for electrical work. Very hard to find 50/50 nyco ripstop and when you do they want $60 ea. It's only like $35 on base. Probably going to be $70 at Vanguard. Let's just hope every squadron gets so much supply we can avoid the base or online. Of course, the stuff they are sending us is most likely the old stock 100% cotton twill. Might be fine in northern states but never going to work here in California or southern states.
If they follow true military thinking; California and all the hot, Southern States will get heavy winter weights, and the Freezing Cold Northern States will get light summer weight. Just like issuing furnaces, NavSta San Diego received heavy duty furnaces and NavSta Great Lakes received light duty furnaces. ;D
No such thing as summer or winter weight ABUs.
Quote from: abdsp51 on May 17, 2016, 01:49:53 AM
No such thing as summer or winter weight ABUs.
Sorry for the mistake, I work with 128th SFS and always hear them referred to as summer and winter weight. I'll make sure I pass this along to them. Thank for the info
I think ABD is referring to the ABUs. He did not speak about the RABU...
Or do we want to start a new discussion on whether the RABUs are not to be worn by CAP because... the authorization did not specify RABU so we are only authorized winter-weight ABU?
[Let me add, the sarcasm filter is on!]
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on May 17, 2016, 03:29:41 AM
I think ABD is referring to the ABUs. He did not speak about the RABU...
Or do we want to start a new discussion on whether the RABUs are not to be worn by CAP because... the authorization did not specify RABU so we are only authorized winter-weight ABU?
[Let me add, the sarcasm filter is on!]
The ABU is used to describe the original ABU and the RABU. In the AFI there is no reference to summer or winter weight ABUs as there was the BDU. You have ABU, RABU, and the 100% Cotton ABU (for specific career fields only).
The ABU and RABU are a 50/50 blend across the board and there is no terminology within the AF for winter or summer weights. The ABU has evolved into what we have today.
Further information can be found in AFI36-2903 Chapter 5.1
Quote from: grunt82abn on May 17, 2016, 02:10:03 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on May 17, 2016, 01:49:53 AM
No such thing as summer or winter weight ABUs.
Sorry for the mistake, I work with 128th SFS and always hear them referred to as summer and winter weight. I'll make sure I pass this along to them. Thank for the info
The Ripstop ABU's (RABU) are sometimes called "Summer Weight" ABU's. This is an unofficial name for them.
Quote from: DocJekyll on May 16, 2016, 12:34:34 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 15, 2016, 11:35:03 PM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on May 15, 2016, 11:27:07 PM
Your suggestion re Blues will not work for most city cadets. They will not receive their Blues uniform voucher until after Curry which is their first promotion. So now, no complete ABU untill who knows when? If they are joining now, will have to look for BDUs which will be like throwing away money.
Not really.....statistically speaking....almost all of those cadets will have quit CAP before they HAVE TO wear ABUs.
Agreed. But even if they were to go ahead and get the ABU's and begin wearing them on the start date (new cadets without their tapes) I can't imagine a senior member berating them for not having a complete uniform as a fresh cadet, and if you do your job with the cadets you wouldn't need to worry about them saying anything either. My squadron, it seems to take the new cadets about a month to get their first set of uniforms done. I think that's more than enough time, and we can do what we need to to make due until the phase in period begins.
The auto-panic isn't really needed. We make due, we stay flexible. Semper Gumby my friends.
The idea about new members wearing the utility uniform on duty without tapes initially actually has a precedent in our parent service. When I went through Air Force Basic Training at Lackland AFB, we began our training in whatever civilian clothing we had brought with us. (Much like new members who just joined). Because of everyone wearing differently coloured clothing that first week, our Military Training Instructors called us "rainbows". For the second and third weeks of Basic Training, we wore plain BDUs with no embroidered insignia of any type (although, we did have our last name handwritten by us on a piece of paper masking tape stuck on the BDUs so the MTI would know the last name of the trainee to more efficiently enforce AF training standards upon us). Because of the lack of sewn tapes or insignia, the MTIs referred to us as "plain relish". As we entered the midpoint of Basic Training, we were finally issued our nametapes, and the entire flight was marched down to the Base Exchange uniform sewing shop to have their name and branch tapes sewn on. With the permanent cloth tapes now sewn on, for the fouth and fifth week of Basic the MTIs referred to us as "canned relish". For the last week, we wore our service dress uniforms with all earned grade, ribbons, and the MTIs referred to us as "Blues". Now, not to fine a point on it, if having a new recruit wearing a utility uniform (BDU or ABU) without any nametapes or insignia until halfway through Basic Training at the very "Gateway To The Air Force" is a good enough official practice for the actual active duty U.S. Air Force, then CAP should have no problem with CAP's own members wearing an authorised utility uniform combination for short time (long enough for Vanguard to catch up on providing said tapes and insignia), since we would actually be following the practice of our parent service.
Quote from: skymaster on May 22, 2016, 03:39:42 PM
Quote from: DocJekyll on May 16, 2016, 12:34:34 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 15, 2016, 11:35:03 PM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on May 15, 2016, 11:27:07 PM
Your suggestion re Blues will not work for most city cadets. They will not receive their Blues uniform voucher until after Curry which is their first promotion. So now, no complete ABU untill who knows when? If they are joining now, will have to look for BDUs which will be like throwing away money.
Not really.....statistically speaking....almost all of those cadets will have quit CAP before they HAVE TO wear ABUs.
Agreed. But even if they were to go ahead and get the ABU's and begin wearing them on the start date (new cadets without their tapes) I can't imagine a senior member berating them for not having a complete uniform as a fresh cadet, and if you do your job with the cadets you wouldn't need to worry about them saying anything either. My squadron, it seems to take the new cadets about a month to get their first set of uniforms done. I think that's more than enough time, and we can do what we need to to make due until the phase in period begins.
The auto-panic isn't really needed. We make due, we stay flexible. Semper Gumby my friends.
The idea about new members wearing the utility uniform on duty without tapes initially actually has a precedent in our parent service. When I went through Air Force Basic Training at Lackland AFB, we began our training in whatever civilian clothing we had brought with us. (Much like new members who just joined). Because of everyone wearing differently coloured clothing that first week, our Military Training Instructors called us "rainbows". For the second and third weeks of Basic Training, we wore plain BDUs with no embroidered insignia of any type (although, we did have our last name handwritten by us on a piece of paper masking tape stuck on the BDUs so the MTI would know the last name of the trainee to more efficiently enforce AF training standards upon us). Because of the lack of sewn tapes or insignia, the MTIs referred to us as "plain relish". As we entered the midpoint of Basic Training, we were finally issued our nametapes, and the entire flight was marched down to the Base Exchange uniform sewing shop to have their name and branch tapes sewn on. With the permanent cloth tapes now sewn on, for the fouth and fifth week of Basic the MTIs referred to us as "canned relish". For the last week, we wore our service dress uniforms with all earned grade, ribbons, and the MTIs referred to us as "Blues". Now, not to fine a point on it, if having a new recruit wearing a utility uniform (BDU or ABU) without any nametapes or insignia until halfway through Basic Training at the very "Gateway To The Air Force" is a good enough official practice for the actual active duty U.S. Air Force, then CAP should have no problem with CAP's own members wearing an authorised utility uniform combination for short time (long enough for Vanguard to catch up on providing said tapes and insignia), since we would actually be following the practice of our parent service.
You don't put the tapes on until the 3rd week because it takes the AAFES vendor that long to make the tapes. Not because you have to "earn" them.
And the FNG's were being called "Rainbows" even back in 1974 when did my time at Lackland.
Since field uniforms are 100% optional for all members, there is no reason for anyone, including new cadets, to
wear them w/o tapes, or anything else that is required.
There is no constraint on the items for the required uniform.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 22, 2016, 05:15:57 PM
Since field uniforms are 100% optional for all members, there is no reason for anyone, including new cadets, to
wear them w/o tapes, or anything else that is required.
There is no constraint on the items for the required uniform.
Field uniforms are 100% optional? Okay, are they required at the ILWG Spring Encampment?
Or do you do the entire Encampment in Blues?
Quote from: PHall on May 22, 2016, 05:31:35 PM
Field uniforms are 100% optional? Okay, are they required at the ILWG Spring Encampment?
Context is everything, however 39-1 indicates they cannot be required for cadets unless issued, and they are 100% optional for seniors.
It's argued encampments are optional, ergo...
Will 75% optional turn off your pedantic indicator light?
We don't even issue blues. They get a voucher after their first promotion.
Blues are a requirement. See 1.2.1 of 39-1. What my esteemed colleage from the Old Northwest is making reference to is that utility unis of ALL flavors are not required by regs and must be issued if required by an activity or school.
Quote from: THRAWN on May 22, 2016, 09:31:33 PM
Blues are a requirement. See 1.2.1 of 39-1. What my esteemed colleage from the Old Northwest is making reference to is that utility unis of ALL flavors are not required by regs and must be issued if required by an activity or school.
Which seems very odd to me, because IMO a good 70% of CAP activities would preclude the wear of blues or the corporate variant. My guess is the spirit of the regs means that the BDUs (soon to be ABUs) would be held in reserve (either at home or at the unit) until it is needed to be worn (missions), and that we would attend ALL meetings except PT nights in blues. In-residence courses like SLS, CLC and so on all stipulate BDUs/utilities will not be worn.
So, while it makes little sense it makes sense. :o
But that is not what it says. Not even in the zip code.
Quote from: Garibaldi on May 22, 2016, 09:59:46 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on May 22, 2016, 09:31:33 PM
Blues are a requirement. See 1.2.1 of 39-1. What my esteemed colleage from the Old Northwest is making reference to is that utility unis of ALL flavors are not required by regs and must be issued if required by an activity or school.
Which seems very odd to me, because IMO a good 70% of CAP activities would preclude the wear of blues or the corporate variant. My guess is the spirit of the regs means that the BDUs (soon to be ABUs) would be held in reserve (either at home or at the unit) until it is needed to be worn (missions), and that we would attend ALL meetings except PT nights in blues. In-residence courses like SLS, CLC and so on all stipulate BDUs/utilities will not be worn.
So, while it makes little sense it makes sense. :o
While I agree with you that it is strange that the uniform worn the most by the membership is actually not the required uniform per 1.2.1, it is what the reg mandates. Activities like encampments, ES training, etc are not mandatory for CAP members and thus while the activity director may mandated the UOD to be BDUs and not have to issue them.
Now if a Unit CC says that the all squadron members must have a squadron hat or t-shirt then it would have to be issued by the squadron. per 1.2.1. T
You say Encampment is not "required", but, for the cadet to advance in the program they have to attend and complete an Encampment.
Otherwise they can be 2b'd for failure to progress in the program.
Sounds like Catch 22 is alive and well!
Quote from: PHall on May 23, 2016, 12:40:13 AM
Sounds like Catch 22 is alive and well!
This is news?
Quote from: THRAWN on May 22, 2016, 10:50:59 PM
But that is not what it says. Not even in the zip code.
It's mandatory to have blues, yet new cadets have to wait up to 2 months or more to get them, if the unit has a full set in their size.
Ehhhh....I lost my train of thought. You win.
Quote from: PHall on May 23, 2016, 12:40:13 AM
You say Encampment is not "required", but, for the cadet to advance in the program they have to attend and complete an Encampment.
Otherwise they can be 2b'd for failure to progress in the program.
Sounds like Catch 22 is alive and well!
No argument there.
For many years the Air Force had a similar policy with PME. They made all levels of PME completely voluntary but if you wanted to get promoted then you had to take the course.
Encampment is definitely not required but at some point in a cadet's career they will either have to attend or face a 2b for failure to progress.
Quote from: Garibaldi on May 23, 2016, 01:31:29 AM
Quote from: THRAWN on May 22, 2016, 10:50:59 PM
But that is not what it says. Not even in the zip code.
It's mandatory to have blues, yet new cadets have to wait up to 2 months or more to get them, if the unit has a full set in their size.
Ehhhh....I lost my train of thought. You win.
Cadets should not wait that long to get blues with the Curry voucher system. Another Catch 22 with that is in order to earn the Curry, one of the requirements is to demonstrate that you can wear the uniform properly but you don't get the blue uniform until AFTER you earn the Curry. So you either have to go buy a uniform (blues or BDU) or borrow one. Once a cadet does earn the Curry they get the voucher usually within a few days and get the uniform a few days after ordering it. Of course the Curry voucher doesn't cover the complete cost that Vanguard charges for blues so that creates another potential issue.
The instant the CC approves the promotion for Curry the cadet gets an email with the voucher. CC receives a copy of the email which is how I know. No idea why I get them but at least they can't complain they never got the email when I've been cc'd on it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: majdomke on May 27, 2016, 06:38:31 AM
The instant the CC approves the promotion for Curry the cadet gets an email with the voucher. CC receives a copy of the email which is how I know. No idea why I get them but at least they can't complain they never got the email when I've been cc'd on it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Squadron CCs get the Curry email so when Cadet Snuffy says that he can't get blues because he never got the voucher you can provide it to him. I have done that a couple of times in the past year. It does still amaze me how CAP emails seem to disappear into into nothingness but the cadet can get an email from anyone else with no issues. Strange how that works! ;D
Quote from: kwe1009 on May 27, 2016, 02:44:46 PM
Quote from: majdomke on May 27, 2016, 06:38:31 AM
The instant the CC approves the promotion for Curry the cadet gets an email with the voucher. CC receives a copy of the email which is how I know. No idea why I get them but at least they can't complain they never got the email when I've been cc'd on it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Squadron CCs get the Curry email so when Cadet Snuffy says that he can't get blues because he never got the voucher you can provide it to him. I have done that a couple of times in the past year. It does still amaze me how CAP emails seem to disappear into into nothingness but the cadet can get an email from anyone else with no issues. Strange how that works! ;D
That's because Snuffy and Snowflake got together and devised this plan of "I'm going to be lazy; they'll baby us anyway."
Not on my watch. >:D
They aren't "instant", by a long shot. In most cases, unless something has changed in the last few weeks, it takes 1-2 weeks for them to show up.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 27, 2016, 03:05:25 PM
They aren't "instant", by a long shot. In most cases, unless something has changed in the last few weeks, it takes 1-2 weeks for them to show up.
I love how people are so quick to want to correct people on these boards. One of the main reasons I stay away most of the time. In my experience, which my posts are always based on, I've received the last two instantly. Your personal results may vary but then again, I wasn't speaking for everyone, just myself.
Back to the topic of the OP... I just received my AF occupation badges with silver on navy from Williams and Williams. You weren't kidding when someone said they are way off when you ask them to fold for me. The example looks right, with there being about 1/8" of background. When I got them, it's more like 1/2" at least. Waste of time asking them to fold when you need to fix it yourself. Other than that, it was a good buy. Their website is a pain to navigate and the only way you are ever going to find the military occupation badges on fabric is from their main page, left hand column at bottom, Information for and then click on Civil Air Patrol. You then get the standard legal disclaimer that they will not make CAP related patches however they will do military badges for our uniforms. A search option on their website would make things easier. https://www.nametags4u.com/civilairpatrol/ (https://www.nametags4u.com/civilairpatrol/)
Quote from: majdomke on May 27, 2016, 03:17:48 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 27, 2016, 03:05:25 PM
They aren't "instant", by a long shot. In most cases, unless something has changed in the last few weeks, it takes 1-2 weeks for them to show up.
I love how people are so quick to want to correct people on these boards. One of the main reasons I stay away most of the time. In my experience, which my posts are always based on, I've received the last two instantly. Your personal results may vary but then again, I wasn't speaking for everyone, just myself.
I don't know that I'd call 8+ hours "quick" in internet land, but so be it.
You made a statement which if not "incorrect" per se, is certainly not consistent, and as a Unit CC, and Group and Wing-level CP officer you don't understand why you
are getting the Curry emails?
Here's the example for my sister:
C/Amn 19 Apr 2016
Mom received email voucher:
Date: April 22, 2016 at 3:30:50 PM CDT
I'm the CDC, and I didn't get anything.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 27, 2016, 04:34:33 PM
Quote from: majdomke on May 27, 2016, 03:17:48 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 27, 2016, 03:05:25 PM
They aren't "instant", by a long shot. In most cases, unless something has changed in the last few weeks, it takes 1-2 weeks for them to show up.
I love how people are so quick to want to correct people on these boards. One of the main reasons I stay away most of the time. In my experience, which my posts are always based on, I've received the last two instantly. Your personal results may vary but then again, I wasn't speaking for everyone, just myself.
I don't know that I'd call 8+ hours "quick" in internet land, but so be it.
You made a statement which if not "incorrect" per se, is certainly not consistent, and as a Unit CC, and Group and Wing-level CP officer you don't understand why you
are getting the Curry emails?
Just more proof why people don't like posting here Eclipse. I've seen you take down people more often then I can remember. You assume everything and target everyone you disagree with. Lack of respect for fellow officers is unbecoming of an officer and against CAP values. Further comments from you will be ignored because I don't want to get to your level. I post here from time to time when I have something to contribute or I have questions. I, like everyone else, don't come here to get railed against.
Quote from: majdomke on May 27, 2016, 05:48:25 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 27, 2016, 04:34:33 PM
Quote from: majdomke on May 27, 2016, 03:17:48 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 27, 2016, 03:05:25 PM
They aren't "instant", by a long shot. In most cases, unless something has changed in the last few weeks, it takes 1-2 weeks for them to show up.
I love how people are so quick to want to correct people on these boards. One of the main reasons I stay away most of the time. In my experience, which my posts are always based on, I've received the last two instantly. Your personal results may vary but then again, I wasn't speaking for everyone, just myself.
I don't know that I'd call 8+ hours "quick" in internet land, but so be it.
You made a statement which if not "incorrect" per se, is certainly not consistent, and as a Unit CC, and Group and Wing-level CP officer you don't understand why you
are getting the Curry emails?
Just more proof why people don't like posting here Eclipse. I've seen you take down people more often then I can remember. You assume everything and target everyone you disagree with. Lack of respect for fellow officers is unbecoming of an officer and against CAP values. Further comments from you will be ignored because I don't want to get to your level. I post here from time to time when I have something to contribute or I have questions. I, like everyone else, don't come here to get railed against.
Having a bad day? This is far from a take down...
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 27, 2016, 04:58:56 PM
Here's the example for my sister:
C/Amn 19 Apr 2016
Mom received email voucher:
Date: April 22, 2016 at 3:30:50 PM CDT
I'm the CDC, and I didn't get anything.
You are correct, I didn't mean instant but it was pretty quick all things considered with CAP's history of being slow. I promoted someone at 9pm last Thursday and received the voucher email the next morning at 6:37am. Not that bad. As the CDc you probably don't get it because they think the CC is enough. I agree that perhaps you and the supply officer should also get the email. In the old days when we had to order the uniforms on eServices we would often just do the measurements at the squadron and order them ourselves. It made sure the cadet got what they were entitled to and also added to our supply should they leave. We also has all the orders sent directly to me so I knew they were received. I saw too many times were the cadet ordered on their own and had it shipped to their home. Only later to quit and never return them or claim they never got them. This was way we were better able to keep track of the uniforms. Since switching to the Curry voucher that practice has slipped and perhaps its time we do the same using the voucher before it expires. We already have their measurements since we have to issue a uniform from supply so they can promote in the first place. Just until we get ABU's... we are going to keep a much tighter control due to their cost. I already have a signed contract from the cadet and parents that they will return everything should they leave the program. This has worked about 80% of the time getting our stuff back. I wish it was 100% but the options for getting unreturned uniform items back are time consuming and can be expensive in cases where you could take them to small claims court. I'm not saying I've ever done that, but I think it's an option. We, as commanders, are supposed to do everything we can to get our equipment back. CAP isn't much help with that guidance and support from the legal officers so all we can do it email, call and send certified mail. Not being returned could be considered stolen but good luck getting law enforcement involved. About all you can do is keep at it and hopefully they come around. We just had one last night come in and turn all his stuff in. We haven't seen him for months and he had been in the program for at least three years. Tons of stuff we never expected back and much appreciated. It was a good night... we even had our internet speed upgraded by AT&T. We had only been getting 400Kbps for the past year and some tech was able to resolve the issue finally and now we have 6Mbps. What an amazing thing being able to actually use our computers online... ha ha.
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 27, 2016, 05:52:03 PM
Quote from: majdomke on May 27, 2016, 05:48:25 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 27, 2016, 04:34:33 PM
Quote from: majdomke on May 27, 2016, 03:17:48 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 27, 2016, 03:05:25 PM
They aren't "instant", by a long shot. In most cases, unless something has changed in the last few weeks, it takes 1-2 weeks for them to show up.
I love how people are so quick to want to correct people on these boards. One of the main reasons I stay away most of the time. In my experience, which my posts are always based on, I've received the last two instantly. Your personal results may vary but then again, I wasn't speaking for everyone, just myself.
I don't know that I'd call 8+ hours "quick" in internet land, but so be it.
You made a statement which if not "incorrect" per se, is certainly not consistent, and as a Unit CC, and Group and Wing-level CP officer you don't understand why you
are getting the Curry emails?
Just more proof why people don't like posting here Eclipse. I've seen you take down people more often then I can remember. You assume everything and target everyone you disagree with. Lack of respect for fellow officers is unbecoming of an officer and against CAP values. Further comments from you will be ignored because I don't want to get to your level. I post here from time to time when I have something to contribute or I have questions. I, like everyone else, don't come here to get railed against.
Having a bad day? This is far from a take down...
Sorry, I've been on this site for nearly 9 years and don't even recommend to my members anymore because so many do nothing more than go after people. Eclipse has some great posts and I've learned a lot from him over the years but I've also grown tired of people being taken down all the time. There's lots of valuable info on this forum but God help you if you ever decide to post something. Personal experiences and opinions are not respected and people feel they have to correct you as if they know what you've experienced better than yourself.
It seems America in general has become a land of people who are always at each others throats and the forums are no exception. Can't people just post their thoughts or questions without people trying to take them down or correct them? It's one thing if you come on here pretending to know regulations and being corrected. It's another when you post a question or comment and then have people harass you instead of being helpful. I think the majority of people are on here looking for answers. Just some simple and polite replies and answers would go a long way to bringing more members onto the site. Again, just my personal opinions and observations.
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 27, 2016, 04:58:56 PM
Here's the example for my sister:
C/Amn 19 Apr 2016
Mom received email voucher:
Date: April 22, 2016 at 3:30:50 PM CDT
I'm the CDC, and I didn't get anything.
You're the CDC, you shouldn't be getting anything. This is one of those CC things.
I noticed the voucher emails come directly from Vanguard so I imagine there is a delay due to CAP relaying the cadets info to them and then their emailing out the voucher. Since we seem to see various results I suspect it's all backend computer lag time. Btw, I don't know if anyone else noticed this but about five months ago I stopped receiving the monthly newsletter and discount from Vanguard. No idea why, not ending up in my spam. I've even re-signed up and still get nothing. I've heard other members in my squadron say the same thing but wondered how widespread this is.
I always went to their Twitter for the discount code. As for CDC vs CC...CCs get a lot of mail, no reason CP stuff goes to them vs the CDC.
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 28, 2016, 07:16:04 AM
I always went to their Twitter for the discount code. As for CDC vs CC...CCs get a lot of mail, no reason CP stuff goes to them vs the CDC.
National, by default, sends everything to the CC. Your CC could try to have the CP stuff go to the CDC, but I don't think National is equipped to do that.
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 28, 2016, 07:16:04 AM
I always went to their Twitter for the discount code. As for CDC vs CC...CCs get a lot of mail, no reason CP stuff goes to them vs the CDC.
I rarely use Twitter but I'll remember that for next time. Thanks.
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 28, 2016, 07:16:04 AM
I always went to their Twitter for the discount code. As for CDC vs CC...CCs get a lot of mail, no reason CP stuff goes to them vs the CDC.
Vanguard posts the discount code on their Facebook page too.
New to the forum, former C/MSgt and USMC Veteran. Considering getting back involved with CAP. I have Naval Aircrew wings from my time in the Corps. If I had a set made up for wear on BDUs/ABUs, would I have to have them embroidered in silver on dark blue, or would they be gold on dark blue as the wings proper are gold? Also, any of my fellow jarheads wear their old tricolor cammies with the EGA transfer on the pocket for CAP? I'd like to simply replace the tapes if possible and save the money on buying a full new set of BDUs. It's already going to be expensive obtaining blues.
As much as I hate to say it for a symbol I understand is important to the Corp, I think you'd have to find a patch to cover the EGA if that is the only thing that is different. If there are other distinguishers, that may not work.
Try asking at the squadron you want to join. Often there is a supply room, even for seniors. Not all units have one, but better to ask!
Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk
Roger, Thanks. That is the only difference, they're just BDUs called by a different name. Are OD green upper jungle boots good to go? My Corcoran Marauders from my cadet days wore out awhile back, but I have jungle boots from my VN Era USMC impression (I teach USMC history).
Another negative.
Quote from: CAPM 39-1, Chap 55.1.1.7. Footwear. Black socks and black combat boots are mandatory with this uniform.
Tracking, thank you, sir. I'm picking up some new jump boots for work anyway so no big deal there. Anyone have an idea about the AC wings, gold or silver? If they're good to go in gold, I think one of the USCG ODU wings would fit the bill nicely.
Quote from: HandsomeWalt_USMC on July 31, 2016, 01:29:19 AM
Tracking, thank you, sir. I'm picking up some new jump boots for work anyway so no big deal there. Anyone have an idea about the AC wings, gold or silver? If they're good to go in gold, I think one of the USCG ODU wings would fit the bill nicely.
This may not be the definitive answer (I don't have a cite for this), but nobody would expect you to get the metal version in silver. They are what they are. Changing the color makes them...not what they are.
I have two retired Marines in my unit, one officer who proudly wears his Wings of Gold - in GOLD, as awarded - above his Master GT badge on his BDUs and one SNCO. The NCO at least wears his old BDU pattern camouflage, with the unit patch over the USMC specific markings. I for one think that's a great thing, as it speaks to the fine Marine underneath the CAP member.
My feeling is to wear the award, as awarded.
V/R
Spam
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on July 31, 2016, 08:26:54 AM
Quote from: HandsomeWalt_USMC on July 31, 2016, 01:29:19 AM
Tracking, thank you, sir. I'm picking up some new jump boots for work anyway so no big deal there. Anyone have an idea about the AC wings, gold or silver? If they're good to go in gold, I think one of the USCG ODU wings would fit the bill nicely.
This may not be the definitive answer (I don't have a cite for this), but nobody would expect you to get the metal version in silver. They are what they are. Changing the color makes them...not what they are.
^^ This.
Silver is represented previously by white and now silver thread (badges and silver colored insignia such as 1st Lt, Captain, Lt Col, etc)
Gold is represented previously by a yellow-gold color (anybody got a Pantone reference on that?) and still by the same yellow-gold color (2nd Lt, Major). Previously, if you were, say, a Naval Aviator, and got your wings reproduced on ultramarine blue fabric, they would have been in the "gold representative color" (whatever it is). I've seen it, looks sharp. Nobody in their right mind would tell a Naval Aviator that he has to make his wings silver. There might be a fist fight over that :)
Quote from: NIN on July 31, 2016, 03:36:54 PM
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on July 31, 2016, 08:26:54 AM
Quote from: HandsomeWalt_USMC on July 31, 2016, 01:29:19 AM
Tracking, thank you, sir. I'm picking up some new jump boots for work anyway so no big deal there. Anyone have an idea about the AC wings, gold or silver? If they're good to go in gold, I think one of the USCG ODU wings would fit the bill nicely.
This may not be the definitive answer (I don't have a cite for this), but nobody would expect you to get the metal version in silver. They are what they are. Changing the color makes them...not what they are.
^^ This.
Silver is represented previously by white and now silver thread (badges and silver colored insignia such as 1st Lt, Captain, Lt Col, etc)
Gold is represented previously by a yellow-gold color (anybody got a Pantone reference on that?) and still by the same yellow-gold color (2nd Lt, Major). Previously, if you were, say, a Naval Aviator, and got your wings reproduced on ultramarine blue fabric, they would have been in the "gold representative color" (whatever it is). I've seen it, looks sharp. Nobody in their right mind would tell a Naval Aviator that he has to make his wings silver. There might be a fist fight over that :)
At our SAREX yesterday one of the members had AF wings and jump wings in the new colors, and he claims that Vanguard is selling them. I couldn't honestly tell if there was a difference in low or high light, but for what it's worth that's what he told me.
Well, whattayaknow? https://www.vanguardmil.com/collections/aviation-cloth (https://www.vanguardmil.com/collections/aviation-cloth)
Outstanding. Thank you, gentlemen. I was honestly dreading having to get them made up in silver. Like was said, that would make them not what they are! I might still have one of the old MAWG GSAR patches from the early 2000s kicking around somewhere to cover up my Eagle, Globe and Anchor.
Quote from: Garibaldi on July 31, 2016, 04:24:39 PM
Quote from: NIN on July 31, 2016, 03:36:54 PM
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on July 31, 2016, 08:26:54 AM
Quote from: HandsomeWalt_USMC on July 31, 2016, 01:29:19 AM
Tracking, thank you, sir. I'm picking up some new jump boots for work anyway so no big deal there. Anyone have an idea about the AC wings, gold or silver? If they're good to go in gold, I think one of the USCG ODU wings would fit the bill nicely.
This may not be the definitive answer (I don't have a cite for this), but nobody would expect you to get the metal version in silver. They are what they are. Changing the color makes them...not what they are.
^^ This.
Silver is represented previously by white and now silver thread (badges and silver colored insignia such as 1st Lt, Captain, Lt Col, etc)
Gold is represented previously by a yellow-gold color (anybody got a Pantone reference on that?) and still by the same yellow-gold color (2nd Lt, Major). Previously, if you were, say, a Naval Aviator, and got your wings reproduced on ultramarine blue fabric, they would have been in the "gold representative color" (whatever it is). I've seen it, looks sharp. Nobody in their right mind would tell a Naval Aviator that he has to make his wings silver. There might be a fist fight over that :)
At our SAREX yesterday one of the members had AF wings and jump wings in the new colors, and he claims that Vanguard is selling them. I couldn't honestly tell if there was a difference in low or high light, but for what it's worth that's what he told me.
Well, whattayaknow? https://www.vanguardmil.com/collections/aviation-cloth (https://www.vanguardmil.com/collections/aviation-cloth)
Pilot and jump wings but not the other aviation badges or occupational badges.
Back when I first joined back up I had my naval parachutist wings made up in the white on blue. When I bought a new set of BDUs I didn't put them back on. Don't wear them on my blues anymore either. I'm proud of my gold wings but I'm not jumping out of any planes anymore.
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