https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CAPR_039_001_5_Mar_2020__6EA485E9593C8.pdf
OK, guys: keep the conversation civil. The mods are definitely watching.
Just glancing at the "Summary of Changes" .... pages 1 and 2 ... it doesn't appear to be many revisions at all.
Quote from: undefinedChapter 11. Removes the height limitation for ribbons and badges on the service uniforms.
Honestly, this is the item that makes me the happiest about this latest revision; cloth rank and name tags on the flight suit and tan t-shirts with nearly every utility uniform are nothing compared to this in my book.
Quote from: etodd on March 05, 2020, 08:43:13 PMJust glancing at the "Summary of Changes" .... pages 1 and 2 ... it doesn't appear to be many revisions at all.
That summary might not show *all* the changes.
The last page contains a number of sunset dates, some of which are new.
Quote from: jeders on March 05, 2020, 08:47:16 PMQuote from: undefinedChapter 11. Removes the height limitation for ribbons and badges on the service uniforms.
Honestly, this is the item that makes me the happiest about this latest revision; cloth rank and name tags on the flight suit and tan t-shirts with nearly every utility uniform are nothing compared to this in my book.
After I just got my ultra-thins built with "some" to keep me under the limit. :)
Berets issued by NBB will not be worn outside the activity after Aug June 2021.
Ranger tabs, belts, and headgear issued by HMRS will not be worn outside the activity after Aug June 2021.
Mini medals now authorized for wear on Corporate Semi-formal.
White turtleneck approved with blazer combination (but not semi-formal).
Tan T-shirt worn with all field uniform variants and flight suits.
dark-blue cloth grade authoized for green flight suits.
Cloth nametag authorized for flight suits and jackets.
Allows for the wear of green or black watchcap.
(Not uniform related)
They also put out a couple of new pamphlets on Command Directed Investigations.
Phasing out old USAF service coat - 1 Aug 2021.
Senior Member NCOs do not wear a hat device on the flight cap.
Still have the wrong color for the FDU, should be sage, not olive drab; oh well, maybe next time they'll get that right.
Also, the CWU (polo) is again listed as being equivalent to the AF-style service uniforms. So the polo really is the only uniform many senior members need, practically speaking.
It's now a "regulation" instead of a "manual".
Might have found a typo... Bottom of page 127 (Attachment 4), regarding the Model Rocketry Patch. The table lists "L/P" for ABU and BDU but "L/RP" for Corporate Field Uniform.
Previous version stated "L/RP" for the Model Rocketry Patch on BDUs.
Since "L/P" isn't in the abbreviations key, was the intent to be "LP" for left pocket or "L/RP" for either left or right pocket?
The paragraph numbering in Chapter 4 is all messed up.
4.1.6 should be 4.1.5.3
4.1.7 should be 4.1.6
4.1.8 should be 4.1.6.3
4.1.9 should be 4.1.7
There are other inconsistencies.
Quote10.3.1. Cadet Model Rocketry Badge. Authorized to be worn by cadets when awarded by the unit commander in accordance with the requirements of CAPR 50-20, CAP Model Rocketry Program.
CAPR 50-20 has been rescinded.
Finally!
I'm just glad I don't have to reference an improper document for guidance anymore!
I am, however, a bit bummed that they still haven't added a standard for color guard
uniforms. As well as the restriction that remains on the beret.
But that's alright, I can survive without either.
Quote11.1.5. CAP members wearing a civilian tuxedo or business suit for formal occasions may elect to wear miniature CAP medals on the left breast. Female members may wear miniature medals on equivalent dress. No other badges or devices will be worn.
Oh god please no.
(https://ibb.co/nD3CKZg)
It's interesting that this reg seems to have appeared here, without being posted on the preview page first, which I check almost every day:
REGULATIONS LISTED BELOW ARE AVAILABLE FOR PREVIEW FOR 30 DAYS PRIOR TO THEIR EFFECTIVE DATE (IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE Concept of Operations for CAP Publications Reengineering). https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/members/publications/regulations-for-preview
CAPR 70-1, CAP Flight Management and 28 associated documents are posted on the preview page right now.
Mike
Quote from: i_am_a_politician on March 06, 2020, 02:17:05 AMQuote11.1.5. CAP members wearing a civilian tuxedo or business suit for formal occasions may elect to wear miniature CAP medals on the left breast. Female members may wear miniature medals on equivalent dress. No other badges or devices will be worn.
Oh god please no.
(https://ibb.co/nD3CKZg)
They do it the UK with no problems. So what's the problem?
Quote1.4.2. Adult individuals without Grade pursuing NCO promotions will wear the USAF-style uniform (except Mess Dress, which is not authorized for individuals without grade) and Corporate uniforms as for NCOs without wearing any grade insignia.
1.4.2.1. USAF-style Uniforms. With the Service Dress Uniform (Class A), these individuals will wear the service coat without epaulets, flight cap with blue braid, and CAP collar insignia. With the Blue Service Uniform (Class B), these individuals will wear the flight cap with blue braid. On the Battle Dress Uniform, these individuals will wear no insignia. These individuals will not wear Mess Dress
What about ABUs?
Quote from: ßτε on March 06, 2020, 05:50:07 AMQuote1.4.2. Adult individuals without Grade pursuing NCO promotions will wear the USAF-style uniform (except Mess Dress, which is not authorized for individuals without grade) and Corporate uniforms as for NCOs without wearing any grade insignia.
1.4.2.1. USAF-style Uniforms. With the Service Dress Uniform (Class A), these individuals will wear the service coat without epaulets, flight cap with blue braid, and CAP collar insignia. With the Blue Service Uniform (Class B), these individuals will wear the flight cap with blue braid. On the Battle Dress Uniform, these individuals will wear no insignia. These individuals will not wear Mess Dress
What about ABUs?
Probably the embroidered CAP lettering, like with the BDUs. They should have clarified that, though.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: jeders on March 05, 2020, 10:49:56 PMAlso, the CWU (polo) is again listed as being equivalent to the AF-style service uniforms. So the polo really is the only uniform many senior members need, practically speaking.
Except.....
"1.2.3. Minimum Corporate-style Uniform: The minimum basic CAP Corporate-style uniform is the
Aviator Shirt Uniform with short sleeve shirt or blouse as appropriate."
Quote from: Fester on March 06, 2020, 03:54:23 AMAnyone taking bets on whether this will be the longest CT thread in 5 years? I've got $20.
The original ABU thread was pretty long
Another Inconsistency:
4.1.7. Men's Service Dress Uniform (Class A) Old Style (Figure 4.6) worn by cadets only. This uniform will be phased out 01 August 2020
4.1.10. Women's USAF Style Service Dress Uniform (Class A) Old Style. (Figure 4.7b). This uniform will be phased out 01 August 2020. This USAF-style uniform may only be worn by cadets.
Then in the ATTACHMENT 9 – PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE PHASE OUT DATES FOR UNIFORM ITEMS Elimination of the old-style USAF service coat for cadets. 01 August 2021
When a Regulation and an attachment to the Regulation are inconsistent, the Regulation is what I would go by.
Quote from: GZCP31 on March 06, 2020, 01:12:38 PMAnother Inconsistency:
4.1.7. Men's Service Dress Uniform (Class A) Old Style (Figure 4.6) worn by cadets only. This uniform will be phased out 01 August 2020
4.1.10. Women's USAF Style Service Dress Uniform (Class A) Old Style. (Figure 4.7b). This uniform will be phased out 01 August 2020. This USAF-style uniform may only be worn by cadets.
Then in the ATTACHMENT 9 – PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE PHASE OUT DATES FOR UNIFORM ITEMS Elimination of the old-style USAF service coat for cadets. 01 August 2021
When a Regulation and an attachment to the Regulation are inconsistent, the Regulation is what I would go by.
Except that there are other areas inside the regulation that also say 1 Aug '21. For now, I'm going with '21 until NHQ issues a statement clarifying this inconsistency.
Quote from: GZCP31 on March 06, 2020, 01:12:38 PMWhen a Regulation and an attachment to the Regulation are inconsistent, the Regulation is what I would go by.
Because...reasons?
Those are clearly typos.
For Cadet Officer insignia, unlike SM Officer insignia, it simply says "sewn on the collar 1" from the front of the collar and centered". The picture in Figure 5.2 shows Cadet Officer Grade Insignia at an angle compared to the bottom of the collar edge. Figure A5-6 shows Cadet Grade Insignia perpendicular to the edge of the collar. Is it is supposed to be perpendicular (consistent with the other ranks)?
Quote from: Fester on March 06, 2020, 03:54:23 AMAnyone taking bets on whether this will be the longest CT thread in 5 years? I've got $20.
That would be a fools bet my friend. B)
NASAR patches can't be worn on the CFU or CFDU?
One thing I noticed,
There is reference to the "Blue" cloth name patch with silver border, badge and name, but it doesn't reference which type of blue as it does in other sections for name tapes etc. So, what shade is it? Midnight/Dark Navy? Bright Blue? The regulation would seem to show with the picture that it's Midnight/Dark Navy just like the rank, but I recently saw someone from national with a bright blue name patch wearing his FDU.
I would have liked for them to use rank on the USAF style FDU that was sage/od on the background with full color rank. The Midnight/Dark Navy doesn't look that good on the USAF style. Looks great on the Corporate FDU though. There was no guideance for the rank on the shoulders with the cloth. 1/8in blue around the widest and top/bottom edge as per everywhere else? I think that needs to be addressed so we don't have massive patches with 1" border around the rank.
Also appears no phase out for the black leather name patch so that's still good. Just the plastic encased rank?
Quote from: DocJekyll on March 06, 2020, 05:25:37 PMOne thing I noticed,
There is reference to the "Blue" cloth name patch with silver border, badge and name, but it doesn't reference which type of blue as it does in other sections for name tapes etc. So, what shade is it? Midnight/Dark Navy? Bright Blue? The regulation would seem to show with the picture that it's Midnight/Dark Navy just like the rank, but I recently saw someone from national with a bright blue name patch wearing his FDU.
I would have liked for them to use rank on the USAF style FDU that was sage/od on the background with full color rank. The Midnight/Dark Navy doesn't look that good on the USAF style. Looks great on the Corporate FDU though. There was no guideance for the rank on the shoulders with the cloth. 1/8in blue around the widest and top/bottom edge as per everywhere else? I think that needs to be addressed so we don't have massive patches with 1" border around the rank.
Also appears no phase out for the black leather name patch so that's still good. Just the plastic encased rank?
No phase out for the leather name badge, but it also says that if the leather badge is worn, the plastic encased must be worn, so once the plastic encased rank goes away so do the leather badges.
Just ordered my blue cloth nametag! Very excited for the tattoo regs aligning with the AF. Sleeve time!
Quote from: DocJekyll on March 06, 2020, 05:25:37 PMAlso appears no phase out for the black leather name patch so that's still good. Just the plastic encased rank?
Check 8.2.4.1:
Quote from: undefinedThe black leather nametag will be phased out 1 August 2021.
It appears the black leather nametag can be worn on the CFDU after that date, but not on the FDU.
Quote from: HandsomeWalt_USMC on March 06, 2020, 05:31:55 PMJust ordered my blue cloth nametag! Very excited for the tattoo regs aligning with the AF. Sleeve time!
Where did you find the blue cloth nametag, I didn't see it at VG? Can you post a link?
Quote from: Blanding on March 06, 2020, 05:35:15 PMIt appears the black leather nametag can be worn on the CFDU after that date, but not on the FDU.
Leather nametag is phased out Aug 2021 for all uniform combinations per last page.
I didn't order from VG. I ordered one with gold Naval Aircrew wings on navy blue with silver name and border from Wings and Things in Pensacola. They've always taken great care of me. I'll order one with CAP AC wings from VG when I get rated.
Quote from: GroundHawg on March 06, 2020, 05:11:50 PMNASAR patches can't be worn on the CFU or CFDU?
10.9.23. National Association for Search and Rescue (NASAR) Patch. May be worn by
graduates of the Search and Rescue School.
Quote10.9.23. National Association for Search and Rescue (NASAR) Patch. May be worn by
graduates of the Search and Rescue School.
NASAR doesn't have a "Search and Rescue School" and the "Inland Search and Rescue School, aka Class" has nothing to do with NASAR. You have to wonder who writes this stuff.
Mike
Quote from: HandsomeWalt_USMC on March 06, 2020, 06:00:47 PMI didn't order from VG. I ordered one with gold Naval Aircrew wings on navy blue with silver name and border from Wings and Things in Pensacola. They've always taken great care of me. I'll order one with CAP AC wings from VG when I get rated.
Presumably this is not for wear on a CAP uniform as no border is authorized.
See page 143...
(https://i.postimg.cc/tJghNRTq/tags.jpg)
Quote from: Eclipse on March 06, 2020, 07:00:55 PMQuote from: HandsomeWalt_USMC on March 06, 2020, 06:00:47 PMI didn't order from VG. I ordered one with gold Naval Aircrew wings on navy blue with silver name and border from Wings and Things in Pensacola. They've always taken great care of me. I'll order one with CAP AC wings from VG when I get rated.
Presumably this is not for wear on a CAP uniform as no border is authorized.
See page 143...
(https://i.postimg.cc/tJghNRTq/tags.jpg)
8.2.4.1 A Blue cloth nametag with silver border and
lettering is authorized in place of the leather nametag, if cloth grade insignia as described above is worn.
Cloth nametag for Officers will include name (first and last) and may include one badge as described
above. No grade will be printed on the cloth nametag for officers.
If you look close at the image there is a border, it just blends with the white background.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 06, 2020, 07:00:55 PMSee page 143...
(https://i.postimg.cc/tJghNRTq/tags.jpg)
Any ideas on why Officers no longer have their grade, but NCOs do? I'd *guess* it's because officers have shoulder insignia, and NCOs don't?
Quote from: Eclipse on March 06, 2020, 07:00:55 PMQuote from: HandsomeWalt_USMC on March 06, 2020, 06:00:47 PMI didn't order from VG. I ordered one with gold Naval Aircrew wings on navy blue with silver name and border from Wings and Things in Pensacola. They've always taken great care of me. I'll order one with CAP AC wings from VG when I get rated.
Presumably this is not for wear on a CAP uniform as no border is authorized.
See page 143...
(https://i.postimg.cc/tJghNRTq/tags.jpg)
The border on the new name patch is silver in color.
8.2.4.1. "...A Blue cloth nametag with silver border and
lettering is authorized in place of the leather nametag, if cloth grade insignia as described above is worn.
Cloth nametag for Officers will include name (first and last) and may include one badge as described
above."
When they say above, it's referencing the same paragraph where it says:
"Badges authorized include one CAP aeronautical rating, CAP occupational badges, a
description of a mission qualification ("Mission Scanner")
and military aviation or occupational badge
when earned through qualification, awarded by competent authority for service performed in any branch
of the armed forces of the United States or its allies, AND authorized for wear on the USAF uniform by
AFI 36-2903."
Quote from: kcebnaes on March 06, 2020, 07:09:38 PMQuote from: Eclipse on March 06, 2020, 07:00:55 PMSee page 143...
(https://i.postimg.cc/tJghNRTq/tags.jpg)
Any ideas on why Officers no longer have their grade, but NCOs do? I'd *guess* it's because officers have shoulder insignia, and NCOs don't?
You would be correct. Cadets and NCO's don't have shoulder rank, so having that on their name patch would identify rank and cadet/senior status. Senior member officers have shoulder rank, so boom.
What it doesn't talk about is Flight Officer ranks. Presumably that would mean flight officer bars go on the FDU now?
Quote from: Eclipse on March 06, 2020, 07:00:55 PMQuote from: HandsomeWalt_USMC on March 06, 2020, 06:00:47 PMI didn't order from VG. I ordered one with gold Naval Aircrew wings on navy blue with silver name and border from Wings and Things in Pensacola. They've always taken great care of me. I'll order one with CAP AC wings from VG when I get rated.
Presumably this is not for wear on a CAP uniform as no border is authorized.
See page 143...
(https://i.postimg.cc/tJghNRTq/tags.jpg)
Paragraph 8.2.4.1 "A blue cloth nametag with silver border and lettering..." Do your reading before you try to call people out, Eclipse. Also, the image you posted literally shows a silver border on the nametag.
Edit: I miscited the paragraph number.
Quote from: DocJekyll on March 06, 2020, 06:01:21 PMQuote from: GroundHawg on March 06, 2020, 05:11:50 PMNASAR patches can't be worn on the CFU or CFDU?
10.9.23. National Association for Search and Rescue (NASAR) Patch. May be worn by
graduates of the Search and Rescue School.
Attachment 4 (page 127)
shows not authorized on the CFU or CFDU.
Very strange as they are good to go on the FDU, ABU, and BDU
Also as has been noted, there is no such thing as a NASAR SAR School
Dear NHQ - Photoshop has a "stroke" function to help separate images from blending into
a background color. Understandably MS paint doesn't, but there must be someone who
can download an eval copy long enough to make decent graphics.
To be fair, this is a pretty decent attempt to incorporate a ton of changes into a complex document,
but this is another situation where actually observing the prescribed 30-day draft period would
have allowed for comment and fixes before being published.
Just as in 2014, a lot of these issues are glaring to new eyes.
Hopefully it won't be 2026 before the typos and errata are corrected, since there
is literally no reason they can't be done in real time as they are spotted.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 06, 2020, 07:42:53 PMTo be fair, this is a pretty decent attempt to incorporate a ton of changes into a complex document,
but this is another situation where actually observing the prescribed 30-day draft period would
have allowed for comment and fixes before being published.
Just as in 2014, a lot of these issues are glaring to new eyes.
Hopefully it won't be 2026 before the typos and errata are corrected, since there
is literally no reason they can't be done in real time as they are spotted.
I would tend to agree. I'm very surprised there wasn't a preview to catch some of these issues.
That being said... I'm sure there will be an update, and I also imagine this version of the 39-1 will be more short lived than it's previous version.
Mini medals now authorized on corporate formal blazer wear.
Quote from: arajca on March 05, 2020, 09:27:39 PMPhasing out old USAF service coat - 1 Aug 2021.
According to para. 4.1.7 the phase out date is 1 Aug 2020 (about 5 months from now)
Edit: read further down in the thread, and learned that the date in para 4.1.7 is a typo.
I see Rothco has inexpensive ($42.95) blue flight jackets. Nothing from Vanguard as yet. Looks like I need one if I can't wear my lightweight blue jacket with the CWU. Any other suggestions for a source?
Quote from: GaryVC on March 07, 2020, 05:55:19 PMI see Rothco has inexpensive ($42.95) blue flight jackets. Nothing from Vanguard as yet. Looks like I need one if I can't wear my lightweight blue jacket with the CWU. Any other suggestions for a source?
Were you wearing the lightweight blue jacket with the CWU before?
It was legal to wear it without grade insignia when I bought it 40 years ago on active duty.
Quote from: mdickinson on March 07, 2020, 01:24:11 AMQuote from: arajca on March 05, 2020, 09:27:39 PMPhasing out old USAF service coat - 1 Aug 2021.
According to para. 4.1.7 the phase out date is 1 Aug 2020 (about 5 months from now)
Edit: read further down in the thread, and learned that the date in para 4.1.7 is a typo.
Until someone from National states that it is a typo, I will assume that it is correct as written.
As it stands now, the Old USAF Service coat is phased out on 1 Aug 2020 for all EXCEPT Honor Guard. I can understand this as most Honor Guard keep a separate service uniform ready for their duties. The uniform should be in pristine shape and not used for any other duties. Most of the Honor Guard members I know purchased a brand new uniform or inherited it from another Honor Guard member. Giving them an additional year to gather the new uniform makes since.
40 years ago they didn't have corporate variants in the way they do now.
It's never been legal to mix USAF-Style and corporate parts insignia or otherwise.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 07, 2020, 08:00:12 PM40 years ago they didn't have corporate variants in the way they do now.
It's never been legal to mix USAF-Style and corporate parts insignia or otherwise.
Except for the cardigan sweater...
True enough.
I also noticed just now that the table of contents was fixed so it's clickable.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 07, 2020, 08:00:12 PM40 years ago they didn't have corporate variants in the way they do now.
It's never been legal to mix USAF-Style and corporate parts insignia or otherwise.
The blue jacket is USAF's to regulate. If they say it can be worn with civilian clothes, and CAP says that any jacket can be worn with a civilian uniform, where is the problem?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on March 07, 2020, 11:56:45 PMThe blue jacket is USAF's to regulate. If they say it can be worn with civilian clothes, and CAP says that any jacket can be worn with a civilian uniform, where is the problem?
39-1 does not say "any jacket", it says "Appropriate
civilian outer garments are authorized..."
in all references.
The Lightweight Blue Jacket is not a civilian outer garment. It is a USAF uniform item.
Having participated in the military uniform circus for 50+ years, both AD and CAP, I'm gonna go with Mitchell on this. It has no identifying markings, and is very close to jackets available in civilian stores.
Otherwise, I'm pretty much on board with the prohibition of mixing AF and civilian items, since the AF stuff is generally identifiable in some form.
Wearing the lightweight jacket with civilian clothes is not a problem anymore if you're enlisted in the Air Force since you have to wear sewn on grade insignia on the sleeves.
It's been like that for about 10 years now.
That's very nice of you're in the Air Force.
Spin it any way you like, people who know, know.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 08, 2020, 12:17:37 AMQuote from: Mitchell 1969 on March 07, 2020, 11:56:45 PMThe blue jacket is USAF's to regulate. If they say it can be worn with civilian clothes, and CAP says that any jacket can be worn with a civilian uniform, where is the problem?
39-1 does not say "any jacket", it says "Appropriate civilian outer garments are authorized..."
in all references.
The Lightweight Blue Jacket is not a civilian outer garment. It is a USAF uniform item.
A USAF uniform item which USAF says can be worn with civilian clothes. Which is what the corporate uniforms are. And since there is no CAP definite of "appropriate civilian outer garment," again, where is the problem, outside of how fine can a hair be split?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Overall not a bad publication. Plenty of small inconsistencies but I'm sure they will be worked out. I didn't personally contribute to writing the regulation so I don't want to be overly critical of those who put in all the hours.
One thing I've noticed is that CPR patches are listed but there isn't a description of where to wear them. It is not listed with the other patches on page 127 or 128
10.9.20. Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation (CPR) Patch. May be worn by individuals who have satisfactorily completed CPR training...
Weird that the new FDU nametags aren't in all caps. I wonder how long it will take VG to get those up and running. As I was just promoted and had too much silver-on-navy sew-on rank but no plastic-encased, I just brought mine down to the local seamstress. Now I just need to NOT get the call until Vanguard makes a link for the new tags!
Quote from: jb3 on March 08, 2020, 12:30:26 PM...One thing I've noticed is that CPR patches are listed but there isn't a description of where to wear them. It is not listed with the other patches on page 127 or 128
10.9.20. Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation (CPR) Patch. May be worn by individuals who have satisfactorily completed CPR training...
I haven't been able to find AHA or Red Cross CPR patches. I suppose you could wear a vintage one if you have it.
In reviewing the new CAPR-39-1, I saw that the plastic-encased rank/grade insignia and the leather name patch is being phased out for the FDU and the sage green flight jacket. The desert sand colored T-shirt will be worn with the AF style FDU. I also saw that we are going to cloth rank/grade insignia on the FDU along with a cloth name patch/tag on the FDU and FDU jacket. The new cloth name tags will have the member's aeronautical badge, first and last name on it and no rank or CAP on it (except senior member NCOs). However, I haven't found anywhere to order the cloth name patch. Vanguard does not have it listed on their website. Although I suppose they will in due time. Does anyone know where to order the new FDU cloth name tag which meet the new CAP specifications?
Quote from: slicek38 on March 08, 2020, 03:09:54 PMIn reviewing the new CAPR-39-1, I saw that the plastic-encased rank/grade insignia and the leather name patch is being phased out for the FDU and the sage green flight jacket. The desert sand colored T-shirt will be worn with the AF style FDU. I also saw that we are going to cloth rank/grade insignia on the FDU along with a cloth name patch/tag on the FDU and FDU jacket. The new cloth name tags will have the member's aeronautical badge, first and last name on it and no rank or CAP on it (except senior member NCOs). However, I haven't found anywhere to order the cloth name patch. Vanguard does not have it listed on their website. Although I suppose they will in due time. Does anyone know where to order the new FDU cloth name tag which meet the new CAP specifications?
The reg was just released so ya might want to give Vanguard a couple of months to get up to speed.
Because I'm sure there was absolutely no coordination between National Headquarters and Vanguard before the reg was published.
Exactly, how fine a hair to justify something clearly inappropriate.
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on March 08, 2020, 04:26:03 AMA USAF uniform item which USAF says can be worn with civilian clothes. Which is what the corporate uniforms are. And since there is no CAP definite of "appropriate civilian outer garment," again, where is the problem, outside of how fine can a hair be split?
The AFI is applicable to people in the Air Force, not CAP. Further, it indicates
wear of the jacket over civilian clothes, not the CAP uniform.
Again, spin it all you like, but the Corporate Uniforms, despite being often comprised of
civilian components, when worn together, are a
uniform.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 08, 2020, 06:56:54 PMExactly, how fine a hair to justify something clearly inappropriate.
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on March 08, 2020, 04:26:03 AMA USAF uniform item which USAF says can be worn with civilian clothes. Which is what the corporate uniforms are. And since there is no CAP definite of "appropriate civilian outer garment," again, where is the problem, outside of how fine can a hair be split?
The AFI is applicable to people in the Air Force, not CAP. Further, it indicates
wear of the jacket over civilian clothes, not the CAP uniform.
Again, spin it all you like, but the Corporate Uniforms, despite being often comprised of
civilian components, when worn together, are a uniform.
If you don't like it, don't wear it. But I'm not pursuing this hair splitting conversation any longer.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: xyzzy on March 08, 2020, 01:32:05 PMQuote from: jb3 on March 08, 2020, 12:30:26 PM...One thing I've noticed is that CPR patches are listed but there isn't a description of where to wear them. It is not listed with the other patches on page 127 or 128
10.9.20. Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation (CPR) Patch. May be worn by individuals who have satisfactorily completed CPR training...
I haven't been able to find AHA or Red Cross CPR patches. I suppose you could wear a vintage one if you have it.
I would get some Red Cross patches made here in Korea if they are authorized for wear.
Quote from: jb3 on March 09, 2020, 06:40:45 AMI would get some Red Cross patches made here in Korea if they are authorized for wear.
If the training were received from the American Red Cross, and one wanted a new patch made in the US, one would have to obtain permission from the American Red Cross. If it were made outside the US, one would probably have to have permission from the American Red Cross to bring it into the US.
Quote from: xyzzy on March 08, 2020, 01:32:05 PMQuote from: jb3 on March 08, 2020, 12:30:26 PM...One thing I've noticed is that CPR patches are listed but there isn't a description of where to wear them. It is not listed with the other patches on page 127 or 128
10.9.20. Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation (CPR) Patch. May be worn by individuals who have satisfactorily completed CPR training...
I haven't been able to find AHA or Red Cross CPR patches. I suppose you could wear a vintage one if you have it.
They dont have to be AHA or ARC. There are now multiple agencies that provide DOT standard of certification in CPR.
"10.9.20. Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation (CPR) Patch. May be worn by individuals who have
satisfactorily completed CPR training, as awarded by a CPR-training agency whose training standards
meet the US Department of Transportation "National Guidelines for First Aid in Occupational Settings".
Patches will only be worn while the member is current. Patch will be appropriate in size and appearance
for the uniform being worn and that authorized by the agency that completed the training."
Did anyone else notice that metal insignia are still allowed on the Corporate Field Uniform (Blue BDU) hats? I am TOTALLY switching to metal insignia to see what happens..
Quote from: kcebnaes on March 09, 2020, 05:34:24 PMDid anyone else notice that metal insignia are still allowed on the Corporate Field Uniform (Blue BDU) hats? I am TOTALLY switching to metal insignia to see what happens..
BTDT, it's meh.
Quote from: Майор Хаткевич on March 09, 2020, 06:03:55 PMBTDT, it's meh.
I don't think that I'd spend real money on them, but I know we randomly have a couple laying around the house from a squadron that we closed a ways back. I tried it once, and it was relatively uncomfortable.
Quote from: kcebnaes on March 09, 2020, 06:07:44 PMQuote from: Майор Хаткевич on March 09, 2020, 06:03:55 PMBTDT, it's meh.
I don't think that I'd spend real money on them, but I know we randomly have a couple laying around the house from a squadron that we closed a ways back. I tried it once, and it was relatively uncomfortable.
Yup, the pin-back pokes into one's head.
Just one of several places to order CPR patches.
https://www.allthingsfirstaid.com/first_aid_patches.aspx (https://www.allthingsfirstaid.com/first_aid_patches.aspx)
Another place, repeats some of those in the first place but adds more...
(https://www.capnhq.gov/CAP.OPSQuals.Web/EmergencyServices/SQTR.aspx)
Quote from: Paul Creed III on March 09, 2020, 06:17:37 PMQuote from: kcebnaes on March 09, 2020, 06:07:44 PMQuote from: Майор Хаткевич on March 09, 2020, 06:03:55 PMBTDT, it's meh.
I don't think that I'd spend real money on them, but I know we randomly have a couple laying around the house from a squadron that we closed a ways back. I tried it once, and it was relatively uncomfortable.
Yup, the pin-back pokes into one's head.
Pull the frogs off and bend the pins over. I did that with my Navy caps for years.
Sent using Tapatalk
Quote from: SarDragon on March 09, 2020, 08:04:45 PMQuote from: Paul Creed III on March 09, 2020, 06:17:37 PMQuote from: kcebnaes on March 09, 2020, 06:07:44 PMQuote from: Майор Хаткевич on March 09, 2020, 06:03:55 PMBTDT, it's meh.
I don't think that I'd spend real money on them, but I know we randomly have a couple laying around the house from a squadron that we closed a ways back. I tried it once, and it was relatively uncomfortable.
Yup, the pin-back pokes into one's head.
Pull the frogs off and bend the pins over. I did that with my Navy caps for years.
Sent using Tapatalk
Doesn't work as well on a patrol cap as it does with a ball cap or even the 8 point cover.
So, I'd like to retract my earlier concerns on the FDU's new rank colors. I just saw one with the blue rank on the shoulders. You cannot tell from 10ft that the background doesn't match the uniform. So that's cool.
Cant wait to get my own sewn on, but I'll likely do the swap on the rank and namepatch all at once when VG gets all their stuff finalized and standardized for the name patch.
It's never been allowed on a ball cap in CAP (other then some "special" activities).
I've had the same pin on the same patrol cap with bent pins for over 10 years.
No issue.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 09, 2020, 09:39:51 PMIt's never been allowed on a ball cap in CAP (other then some "special" activities).
I've had the same pin on the same patrol cap with bent pins for over 10 years.
No issue.
Not too bad for captain and above. Not as much fun for lieutenants and flight officers
It's less hassle then sewing.
Quote from: THRAWN on March 10, 2020, 02:57:41 AMQuote from: Eclipse on March 09, 2020, 09:39:51 PMIt's never been allowed on a ball cap in CAP (other then some "special" activities).
I've had the same pin on the same patrol cap with bent pins for over 10 years.
No issue.
Not too bad for captain and above. Not as much fun for lieutenants and flight officers
It's all a matter of technique.
Sent using Tapatalk
Funny story, I went to gocivilairpatrol.com and opened what I thought was the new uniform regulation. It took me a couple minutes to realize that I was reading the old CAPM 39-1. The new CAPR 39-1 is there too so it comes down to operator error on my part. Ok, not really that funny but I thought I'd overshare.
Quote from: jb3 on March 10, 2020, 06:26:24 AMFunny story, I went to gocivilairpatrol.com and opened what I thought was the new uniform regulation. It took me a couple minutes to realize that I was reading the old CAPM 39-1. The new CAPR 39-1 is there too so it comes down to operator error on my part. Ok, not really that funny but I thought I'd overshare.
Yeah, they really should pull the old one down.
Quote from: kcebnaes on March 09, 2020, 05:34:24 PMDid anyone else notice that metal insignia are still allowed on the Corporate Field Uniform (Blue BDU) hats? I am TOTALLY switching to metal insignia to see what happens..
Thank you for this; I misread the new 39-1 on my first read-through and thought that pin-on rank was no longer authorized. I was sad. But now I am not.
I liked how until the phase out date, members can wear the HMRS ranger tabs on the uniform only at the activity. ie this is my Hawk shirt and this is my not Hawk shirt.
Also the illustration with the Ranger tabs is incorrect: It shows and Expert Ranger in Black and Gold and Red and Gold. The Red and Gold should say Master Medic.
With the phase out this might be a fantastic time to look at the development of an actual 39-1 compliant "badge" vs a "tab" for HMRS graduates
mk
Quote from: sarmed1 on March 13, 2020, 01:16:16 AMWith the phase out this might be a fantastic time to look at the development of an actual 39-1 compliant "badge" vs a "tab" for HMRS graduates
Nah - "none" covers the issue nicely and closes the arguments once and for all.
Quote from: sarmed1 on March 13, 2020, 01:16:16 AMWith the phase out this might be a fantastic time to look at the development of an actual 39-1 compliant "badge" vs a "tab" for HMRS graduates
There's already a Hawk Mountain NCSA patch that can be worn; is there really a need for anything else?
Quote from: sarmed1 on March 13, 2020, 01:16:16 AMWith the phase out this might be a fantastic time to look at the development of an actual 39-1 compliant "badge" vs a "tab" for HMRS graduates
mk
The problem is it wouldn't be just one metal badge, you would have to have something for all of the different grades. Will VG want to produce that many different badges knowing they will only sell a small amount each year? I hate to see the tabs go, but with the new push for less is more on the ABU's I doubt anyone will be in a hurry to create more badges for a program that only a small percentage of the membership base will attend.
Quote from: 1st Lt Thompson on March 13, 2020, 04:13:38 PMQuote from: sarmed1 on March 13, 2020, 01:16:16 AMWith the phase out this might be a fantastic time to look at the development of an actual 39-1 compliant "badge" vs a "tab" for HMRS graduates
mk
The problem is it wouldn't be just one metal badge, you would have to have something for all of the different grades. Will VG want to produce that many different badges knowing they will only sell a small amount each year? I hate to see the tabs go, but with the new push for less is more on the ABU's I doubt anyone will be in a hurry to create more badges for a program that only a small percentage of the membership base will attend.
Might be time to make more rockers like the staff ones. Maybe ranger grade on top, staff on bottom?
Or just integrate the ranger grade into the patch itself and upgrade as you go.
Luckily I have enough uniforms laying around to make some Hawk-only ones.
Quote from: Jester on March 13, 2020, 05:57:50 PMMight be time to make more rockers like the staff ones. Maybe ranger grade on top, staff on bottom?
Why?
"Ranger Grade" isn't a thing that matters to anyone but the person wearing it.
It's an unnecessary affectation from an HAA - leave it there.
One thing I'd like to see is expanded badges for specialty tracks similar to GT or IC, IG. Etc.
We have a lot of members who may not play ES, but are outstanding at the duties they perform at unit, group and wing.
Itd be a great way to align more with AF and they'd have something to denote those items on a utility.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 13, 2020, 06:38:43 PMQuote from: Jester on March 13, 2020, 05:57:50 PMMight be time to make more rockers like the staff ones. Maybe ranger grade on top, staff on bottom?
Why?
"Ranger Grade" isn't a thing that matters to anyone but the person wearing it.
It's an unnecessary affectation from an HAA - leave it there.
Nah. I'm maxed out on GT stuff and working on ranger grades gives me something to do to keep progressing. I've started doing NASAR stuff too (which Hawk now trains to).
Quote from: DocJekyll on March 13, 2020, 06:52:15 PMItd be a great way to align more with AF and they'd have something to denote those items on a utility.
So you want patches on a working uniform for people who do jobs that don't require a
working uniform?
Quote from: Eclipse on March 13, 2020, 07:36:54 PMQuote from: DocJekyll on March 13, 2020, 06:52:15 PMItd be a great way to align more with AF and they'd have something to denote those items on a utility.
So you want patches on a working uniform for people who do jobs that don't require a
working uniform?
May not require it, but plenty of people do wear them. Could be added to the tactical polo as well in place of wings etc on that uniform.
Just a thought. I dont ever expect it to happen.
Quote from: 1st Lt Thompson on March 06, 2020, 05:29:44 PMQuote from: DocJekyll on March 06, 2020, 05:25:37 PMOne thing I noticed,
There is reference to the "Blue" cloth name patch with silver border, badge and name, but it doesn't reference which type of blue as it does in other sections for name tapes etc. So, what shade is it? Midnight/Dark Navy? Bright Blue? The regulation would seem to show with the picture that it's Midnight/Dark Navy just like the rank, but I recently saw someone from national with a bright blue name patch wearing his FDU.
I would have liked for them to use rank on the USAF style FDU that was sage/od on the background with full color rank. The Midnight/Dark Navy doesn't look that good on the USAF style. Looks great on the Corporate FDU though. There was no guideance for the rank on the shoulders with the cloth. 1/8in blue around the widest and top/bottom edge as per everywhere else? I think that needs to be addressed so we don't have massive patches with 1" border around the rank.
Also appears no phase out for the black leather name patch so that's still good. Just the plastic encased rank?
No phase out for the leather name badge, but it also says that if the leather badge is worn, the plastic encased must be worn, so once the plastic encased rank goes away so do the leather badges.
Attachment 9 reports Leather nametag phase out date of 01AUG2021
Quote from: SARDOC on March 23, 2020, 04:31:04 PMQuote from: 1st Lt Thompson on March 06, 2020, 05:29:44 PMQuote from: DocJekyll on March 06, 2020, 05:25:37 PMOne thing I noticed,
There is reference to the "Blue" cloth name patch with silver border, badge and name, but it doesn't reference which type of blue as it does in other sections for name tapes etc. So, what shade is it? Midnight/Dark Navy? Bright Blue? The regulation would seem to show with the picture that it's Midnight/Dark Navy just like the rank, but I recently saw someone from national with a bright blue name patch wearing his FDU.
I would have liked for them to use rank on the USAF style FDU that was sage/od on the background with full color rank. The Midnight/Dark Navy doesn't look that good on the USAF style. Looks great on the Corporate FDU though. There was no guideance for the rank on the shoulders with the cloth. 1/8in blue around the widest and top/bottom edge as per everywhere else? I think that needs to be addressed so we don't have massive patches with 1" border around the rank.
Also appears no phase out for the black leather name patch so that's still good. Just the plastic encased rank?
No phase out for the leather name badge, but it also says that if the leather badge is worn, the plastic encased must be worn, so once the plastic encased rank goes away so do the leather badges.
Attachment 9 reports Leather nametag phase out date of 01AUG2021
Just checked Vanguard and I am not seeing the embroidered name patches or the grade insignia yet.
Quote from: Paul Creed III on March 23, 2020, 06:08:08 PMQuote from: SARDOC on March 23, 2020, 04:31:04 PMQuote from: 1st Lt Thompson on March 06, 2020, 05:29:44 PMQuote from: DocJekyll on March 06, 2020, 05:25:37 PMOne thing I noticed,
There is reference to the "Blue" cloth name patch with silver border, badge and name, but it doesn't reference which type of blue as it does in other sections for name tapes etc. So, what shade is it? Midnight/Dark Navy? Bright Blue? The regulation would seem to show with the picture that it's Midnight/Dark Navy just like the rank, but I recently saw someone from national with a bright blue name patch wearing his FDU.
I would have liked for them to use rank on the USAF style FDU that was sage/od on the background with full color rank. The Midnight/Dark Navy doesn't look that good on the USAF style. Looks great on the Corporate FDU though. There was no guideance for the rank on the shoulders with the cloth. 1/8in blue around the widest and top/bottom edge as per everywhere else? I think that needs to be addressed so we don't have massive patches with 1" border around the rank.
Also appears no phase out for the black leather name patch so that's still good. Just the plastic encased rank?
No phase out for the leather name badge, but it also says that if the leather badge is worn, the plastic encased must be worn, so once the plastic encased rank goes away so do the leather badges.
Attachment 9 reports Leather nametag phase out date of 01AUG2021
Just checked Vanguard and I am not seeing the embroidered name patches or the grade insignia yet.
I've been keeping an eye on it as well. nametags4u.com produce military badges in CAP colors for ABU/BDU, but I don't know if they're able to put CAP badges on a Flight suit name patch or not.
While I'm sure Vanguard is hit with the same slowdown as everything else right now, I'm sure if things had been coordinated correctly from the get-go the new stuff would be on the site the day the new reg went live.
Quote from: Jester on March 23, 2020, 06:47:00 PMI've been keeping an eye on it as well. nametags4u.com (//nametags4u.com) produce military badges in CAP colors for ABU/BDU, but I don't know if they're able to put CAP badges on a Flight suit name patch or not.
They are not - They were C&D 10 years ago.
It's not like you have to be in any kind of a hurry. You still have 17 months.
Quote from: PHall on March 23, 2020, 08:45:25 PMIt's not like you have to be in any kind of a hurry. You still have 17 months.
The way things are going, maybe more....
Quote from: Paul Creed III on March 23, 2020, 06:08:08 PMQuote from: SARDOC on March 23, 2020, 04:31:04 PMQuote from: 1st Lt Thompson on March 06, 2020, 05:29:44 PMQuote from: DocJekyll on March 06, 2020, 05:25:37 PMOne thing I noticed,
There is reference to the "Blue" cloth name patch with silver border, badge and name, but it doesn't reference which type of blue as it does in other sections for name tapes etc. So, what shade is it? Midnight/Dark Navy? Bright Blue? The regulation would seem to show with the picture that it's Midnight/Dark Navy just like the rank, but I recently saw someone from national with a bright blue name patch wearing his FDU.
I would have liked for them to use rank on the USAF style FDU that was sage/od on the background with full color rank. The Midnight/Dark Navy doesn't look that good on the USAF style. Looks great on the Corporate FDU though. There was no guideance for the rank on the shoulders with the cloth. 1/8in blue around the widest and top/bottom edge as per everywhere else? I think that needs to be addressed so we don't have massive patches with 1" border around the rank.
Also appears no phase out for the black leather name patch so that's still good. Just the plastic encased rank?
No phase out for the leather name badge, but it also says that if the leather badge is worn, the plastic encased must be worn, so once the plastic encased rank goes away so do the leather badges.
Attachment 9 reports Leather nametag phase out date of 01AUG2021
Just checked Vanguard and I am not seeing the embroidered name patches or the grade insignia yet.
VG says they don't have an ETA at this point, but should have more info in a few weeks, per an email response I received a couple of days ago.
Quote from: 1st Lt Thompson on March 06, 2020, 05:29:44 PMQuote from: DocJekyll on March 06, 2020, 05:25:37 PMOne thing I noticed,
There is reference to the "Blue" cloth name patch with silver border, badge and name, but it doesn't reference which type of blue as it does in other sections for name tapes etc. So, what shade is it? Midnight/Dark Navy? Bright Blue? The regulation would seem to show with the picture that it's Midnight/Dark Navy just like the rank, but I recently saw someone from national with a bright blue name patch wearing his FDU.
I would have liked for them to use rank on the USAF style FDU that was sage/od on the background with full color rank. The Midnight/Dark Navy doesn't look that good on the USAF style. Looks great on the Corporate FDU though. There was no guideance for the rank on the shoulders with the cloth. 1/8in blue around the widest and top/bottom edge as per everywhere else? I think that needs to be addressed so we don't have massive patches with 1" border around the rank.
Also appears no phase out for the black leather name patch so that's still good. Just the plastic encased rank?
No phase out for the leather name badge, but it also says that if the leather badge is worn, the plastic encased must be worn, so once the plastic encased rank goes away so do the leather badges.
Other way around. If the
Cloth Name Patch is worn, the
Cloth Rank must be worn. Phase out for leather is 1 Aug 2021. You can wear the leather name patch with the cloth rank, and I've already made that swap on my uniform.
Reference:8.3.3.2. Grade Insignia (Officers). Wear plastic encased grade or full-color grade
embroidered on a dark blue background centered on top of each shoulder with bottom edge of insignia
placed ½ inch from shoulder seam.
Only cloth grade insignia will be worn with the cloth nametag. Plastic
encased grade insignia will not be worn after 01 August 2021.
(never mind)
Quote from: Paul Creed III on March 23, 2020, 06:08:08 PM... or the grade insignia yet.
The way I read it sir is to just get the dark blue grade insignia same as what goes on the ABU & BBDU, so here: https://www.vanguardmil.com/collections/nco-insignia-and-cloth-insignia
As to the nametag though, yeah still waiting to see that populate too.
Quote from: Brad on March 27, 2020, 05:04:48 PMThe way I read it sir is to just get the dark blue grade insignia same as what goes on the ABU & BBDU
I think that's probably right except the Maj Gen rank, which doesn't have the stars lined up appropriately on the existing item. I'm sure they'll figure something out ;D
Use the same blue insignia that has been available for the corporate FDU (the blue one).
Don't use the ABU insignia. It is slightly different.
Quote from: ßτε on March 27, 2020, 08:37:43 PMUse the same blue insignia that has been available for the corporate FDU (the blue one).
Don't use the ABU insignia. It is slightly different.
There is no "ABU version" of field uniform insignia, they are all the same.
And yes, it's the same insignia for the flight suits now as well.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 27, 2020, 09:01:12 PMQuote from: ßτε on March 27, 2020, 08:37:43 PMUse the same blue insignia that has been available for the corporate FDU (the blue one).
Don't use the ABU insignia. It is slightly different.
There is no "ABU version" of field uniform insignia, they are all the same.
And yes, it's the same insignia for the flight suits now as well.
My mistake.
I see that they still have a irreconcilable difference between 39-1 and 39-3 regarding wear of US military ribbons that impacts those who earned U.S. Coast Guard awards while serving in the Coast Guard Auxiliary. I think its been many years since this has been brought up here, but as a refresher, Coast Guard Auxiliary members can, and regularly do, earn actual Coast Guard awards that are awarded to them by the Coast Guard. For example, I've got a Presidential Unit Citation, Special Operations Service, and several Distinguished Unit citations earned while an Auxiliary member. Auxiliary-specific awards are actually only awarded by the Coast Guard too, but are quite obviously not military awards.
The new version of 39-1 still has this in 11.2.2
Quote11.2.2. US Awards. Federal awards awarded by the competent authority may be worn on USAF-style uniforms in accordance with instructions contained in AFI 36-2903. National Guard awards will not be worn.
However, 39-3 A(3)(b) says this:
QuoteDecorations, ribbons and badges authorized for wear on the U.S. Air Force uniform may be worn on the CAP AF-style uniform when earned through qualification and awarded by competent authority to a member for service performed in any branch of the Armed Forces of the United States or its allies as outlined in CAPM 39-1.
So, one reg says that you can wear a CG ribbon only if you earned it while a member of the Armed Forces while another reg says you can wear it if it was awarded by competent authority and makes no mention of what status the member had to be in when it was awarded.
The major issue is, of course, why in the heck are we putting any uniform-related requirements in the Award regulation instead of leaving that entirely to the uniform regulation?
Frankly, I'd say that if the military gives you a military award in compliance with their regulations, then you should be able to wear it whether you were in the military or not at the time.
Quote from: RiverAux on April 02, 2020, 09:32:34 PMSo, one reg says that you can wear a CG ribbon only if you earned it while a member of the Armed Forces while another reg says you can wear it if it was awarded by competent authority and makes no mention of what status the member had to be in when it was awarded.
Does the CG Aux allow CAP members to wear the Air Force Organizational Excellence Award on their CG Aux uniforms?
The Auxiliary manual does not seem to have a requirement that military awards be earned while in the military to be eligible to be worn on the Auxiliary uniform. That particular award is one that can be worn on an Auxiliary uniform, so as best I can tell, the answer would be yes.
Quote from: GZCP31 on March 07, 2020, 07:59:59 PMQuote from: mdickinson on March 07, 2020, 01:24:11 AMQuote from: arajca on March 05, 2020, 09:27:39 PMPhasing out old USAF service coat - 1 Aug 2021.
According to para. 4.1.7 the phase out date is 1 Aug 2020 (about 5 months from now)
Edit: read further down in the thread, and learned that the date in para 4.1.7 is a typo.
Until someone from National states that it is a typo, I will assume that it is correct as written.
As it stands now, the Old USAF Service coat is phased out on 1 Aug 2020 for all EXCEPT Honor Guard. I can understand this as most Honor Guard keep a separate service uniform ready for their duties. The uniform should be in pristine shape and not used for any other duties. Most of the Honor Guard members I know purchased a brand new uniform or inherited it from another Honor Guard member. Giving them an additional year to gather the new uniform makes since.
I would say that since page one of the 39-1 says the old service coat phase out date is covered in chapter 4, and chapter 4 dpsays 2020, all other dates regarding he old style are the typos.
However I do like the concept that honor guards were allowed to old the old style for honor guard only. I might allow for that if any honor guard wants to wear it.
Business Card Apr 5, 2020.pdf
Quote from: RiverAux on April 02, 2020, 09:32:34 PMI see that they still have a irreconcilable difference between 39-1 and 39-3 regarding wear of US military ribbons that impacts those who earned U.S. Coast Guard awards while serving in the Coast Guard Auxiliary. I think its been many years since this has been brought up here, but as a refresher, Coast Guard Auxiliary members can, and regularly do, earn actual Coast Guard awards that are awarded to them by the Coast Guard. For example, I've got a Presidential Unit Citation, Special Operations Service, and several Distinguished Unit citations earned while an Auxiliary member. Auxiliary-specific awards are actually only awarded by the Coast Guard too, but are quite obviously not military awards.
The new version of 39-1 still has this in 11.2.2
Quote from: undefined11.2.2. US Awards. Federal awards awarded by the competent authority may be worn on USAF-style uniforms in accordance with instructions contained in AFI 36-2903. National Guard awards will not be worn.
However, 39-3 A(3)(b) says this:
Quote from: undefinedDecorations, ribbons and badges authorized for wear on the U.S. Air Force uniform may be worn on the CAP AF-style uniform when earned through qualification and awarded by competent authority to a member for service performed in any branch of the Armed Forces of the United States or its allies as outlined in CAPM 39-1.
So, one reg says that you can wear a CG ribbon only if you earned it while a member of the Armed Forces while another reg says you can wear it if it was awarded by competent authority and makes no mention of what status the member had to be in when it was awarded.
The major issue is, of course, why in the heck are we putting any uniform-related requirements in the Award regulation instead of leaving that entirely to the uniform regulation?
Frankly, I'd say that if the military gives you a military award in compliance with their regulations, then you should be able to wear it whether you were in the military or not at the time.
This has come up a few times over the years with cadets earning the USAF, USN, and USCG marksmanship ribbons/medals.
Well, been reading it, and glad to see some changes. Love that restriction about putting badges/ribbons below the Service Coat notch and below the collar tip gone. (Still wish there were ready resources on mini ribbons, and they were authorized. But, don't actually need them now.)
Does anyone have any insight on why organizational patches are still not authorized on the FDU? It literally makes no sense to allow it on the CFDU, but not the FDU. Anyone know if it just wasn't addressed, so they just let it ride?
Cloth nametag/rank insignia on FDU is pretty sweet. I can just sew everything on the bag/jacket, and be done.
Little puzzled on the single badge for the cloth nametag, though. Vanguard could be making some money on adding badges, and it's really not unusual for two (or even more, I have seen it) on Air Force flightsuits.
I am glad to see some major progress when it comes to sensible placement for additional badges for females. Might not be totally there yet, but it's major progress.
Seems like a few things don't really mirror the Air Force. Almost like a lot of it got written by someone that walked around an Air Force base for awhile, and only took a few notes.
Quote from: GroundHawg on April 06, 2020, 11:43:47 AMQuote from: GroundHawg on April 06, 2020, 11:43:47 AMQuote from: RiverAux on April 02, 2020, 09:32:34 PMFrankly, I'd say that if the military gives you a military award in compliance with their regulations, then you should be able to wear it whether you were in the military or not at the time.
This has come up a few times over the years with cadets earning the USAF, USN, and USCG marksmanship ribbons/medals.
Its actually not a conflict. Unlike CAP, USCGAUX personnel are considered to be part of the actual Coast Guard.
Quote from: PHall on March 06, 2020, 05:20:40 AMQuote from: i_am_a_politician on March 06, 2020, 02:17:05 AMQuote11.1.5. CAP members wearing a civilian tuxedo or business suit for formal occasions may elect to wear miniature CAP medals on the left breast. Female members may wear miniature medals on equivalent dress. No other badges or devices will be worn.
Oh god please no.
They do it the UK with no problems. So what's the problem?
I am retired US Army, and we do it here with no problems as well. Most of us no longer fit the uniforms we wore.
This actually came up at the National Board as a morale issue as there was no corporate equivalent to the mess dress uniform. Apparently it was not formally defined as the equivalent of formal mess dress, but its in there just the same. Should have allowed at least one badge though. Leaving pilot wings off seems odd.
A full Mess Dress uniform costs hundreds of dollars. You can get a used black tie outfit on Ebay for about $20. Thats another reason.
Quote from: Dwight Dutton on April 14, 2020, 05:22:46 PMQuote from: GroundHawg on April 06, 2020, 11:43:47 AMQuote from: GroundHawg on April 06, 2020, 11:43:47 AMQuote from: RiverAux on April 02, 2020, 09:32:34 PMFrankly, I'd say that if the military gives you a military award in compliance with their regulations, then you should be able to wear it whether you were in the military or not at the time.
This has come up a few times over the years with cadets earning the USAF, USN, and USCG marksmanship ribbons/medals.
Its actually not a conflict. Unlike CAP, USCGAUX personnel are considered to be part of the actual Coast Guard.
Actually it is a conflict since in no way can CG Aux members be considered to be serving in the Coast Guard as required by CAPR 39-3. Basically, we are no more part of the Coast Guard than CAP is part of the Air Force. While the day-to-day relationship is totally different and the CG certainly treats Auxies more like part of the service than CAP does, we are not part of the actual Coast Guard.
And during a pandemic, we talk uniforms?
(Channeling Spam!)
Quote from: JohhnyD on April 18, 2020, 11:29:08 PMAnd during a pandemic, we talk uniforms?
(Channeling Spam!)
Got to talk about something! People going stir crazy sitting at home. LOL
I've got no problem talking about uniforms.
Here's the thing though; imagine you are at mission base on an actual missing aircraft or DR mission. The family of missing persons or those in distress are sitting waiting to hear something - anything, and are about to meet with the IC for an update. A bunch of CAP members are sitting around within earshot of the family, chatting about how cool it is, to have logged so many hours/sorties today and how close they are to their next SAR/DR ribbon... bad move. Having the discussion about bling, sure whatever, but having it in public during the event - in essence in front of the families of those who are dying - is very much not cool, and that's what I saw, from my POV, on CAPTalk.
Now returning you to your chat about uniforms. Enjoy. Its what interests CAP members the most, it would seem, by the sheer count of messages on CAP Talk, as compared to Ops or certainly AE. Form over substance (sigh).
V/r
Spam
So ... what would Spam like to discuss? We've talked COVID and the stand down enough. Nothing left to say until NATCAP starts opening us back up.
So what topics would interest you? Or should CAPTalk stand down?
Seeing as this is a uniform thread, carry on, please. The 39-1 update is the topic.
I actually have AE current event topics, which belong elsewhere. I did an update to the c.2004 vintage Task O-0902 Exercise Universal Precautions SQTR task, which I presented this week at a meeting, and am considering posting. But those don't belong here.
R/s
Spam
Quote from: Spam on April 19, 2020, 02:04:05 AMI've got no problem talking about uniforms.
Here's the thing though; imagine you are at mission base on an actual missing aircraft or DR mission. The family of missing persons or those in distress are sitting waiting to hear something - anything, and are about to meet with the IC for an update. A bunch of CAP members are sitting around within earshot of the family, chatting about how cool it is, to have logged so many hours/sorties today and how close they are to their next SAR/DR ribbon... bad move. Having the discussion about bling, sure whatever, but having it in public during the event - in essence in front of the families of those who are dying - is very much not cool, and that's what I saw, from my POV, on CAPTalk.
Now returning you to your chat about uniforms. Enjoy. Its what interests CAP members the most, it would seem, by the sheer count of messages on CAP Talk, as compared to Ops or certainly AE. Form over substance (sigh).
V/r
Spam
In publick? Captalk? HAHAHAHAHA....
Quote from: NIN on March 05, 2020, 08:39:44 PMhttps://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CAPR_039_001_5_Mar_2020__6EA485E9593C8.pdf
OK, guys: keep the conversation civil. The mods are definitely watching.
Yes, we are. Clean it up, or another one bites the dust.
Quote from: RiverAux on April 18, 2020, 08:42:39 PMActually it is a conflict since in no way can CG Aux members be considered to be serving in the Coast Guard as required by CAPR 39-3. Basically, we are no more part of the Coast Guard than CAP is part of the Air Force. While the day-to-day relationship is totally different and the CG certainly treats Auxies more like part of the service than CAP does, we are not part of the actual Coast Guard.
[/quote]
Quote from: RiverAux on April 18, 2020, 08:42:39 PMQuote from: Dwight Dutton on April 14, 2020, 05:22:46 PMQuote from: GroundHawg on April 06, 2020, 11:43:47 AMQuote from: GroundHawg on April 06, 2020, 11:43:47 AMQuote from: RiverAux on April 02, 2020, 09:32:34 PMFrankly, I'd say that if the military gives you a military award in compliance with their regulations, then you should be able to wear it whether you were in the military or not at the time.
This has come up a few times over the years with cadets earning the USAF, USN, and USCG marksmanship ribbons/medals.
Its actually not a conflict. Unlike CAP, USCGAUX personnel are considered to be part of the actual Coast Guard.
Actually it is a conflict since in no way can CG Aux members be considered to be serving in the Coast Guard as required by CAPR 39-3. Basically, we are no more part of the Coast Guard than CAP is part of the Air Force. While the day-to-day relationship is totally different and the CG certainly treats Auxies more like part of the service than CAP does, we are not part of the actual Coast Guard.
If thats what you believe, feel free to leave them off. Personally I do not wear ribbons on anything but the service coat and that has the rack I retired from the Army with.
I think one of is confused about what the other is saying. My point is that two different CAP regulations conflict on exactly when military awards earned as a civilian but awarded by a military service can be worn. It is a very niche issue and probably impacts a small minority of CAP members, but that is not a reason to have a conflict in the regs. I think they should remove the language about which and how awards can be worn from the awards manual and leave that to the uniform reg. If they want to replace the language in the uniform manual with what is in the awards manual which would have the effect of prohibiting members who earned CG awards as Auxies, I wouldn't have major heartburn over it.