CAP officers and high school diplomas

[Short Field]

So the commander asks and the member says, "yep, I got a HS diploma, just forgot to put it down".  Do you ask to see it every time?

[RiverAux]

Not every time.  Once should be enough to verify the qualification.

[Short Field]

^^^ Do you ask to see a SM's High School Diploma or equivalent every time you promote a SM to 2nd Lt?  Or do you ask to see a applicant's High School Diploma or equivalent before you send the applicant to National so you can verify it then?   Or do you rely on the CAPWATCH database to determine the education level (based on unvalidated data)?

[RiverAux]

Either of the first two options would work.  As mentioned at the beginning of this thread, CAPWATCH is currently not a reliable indicator for member education levels. 

This really isn't all that complicated.

[SM-MADDOG]

I also disagree that a traditional high school diploma means anything either. I knew someone who didnt even take her dang final exams and they still passed her. The High School Equiv Diploma (GED) they arent going to do that, you either get at least passing scores or you dont get any diploma. Also they say that the graduating high school seniors who take the ged test 37 % of them cant pass it. If a GED graduate earns the minium passing score allowed they out score 40 % of graduating seniors. Also I seen some stats on the work force and how many percent of ged grads out perform tradtional hs grads, you would be surprised. It all boils down to the person not what diploma they got. Case by case basis, but as I said at least the GED shows you posses graduating senior scores.

They even award diplomas to students with mental problems. Now, they should get a diploma, because I 100 % in my heart think everyone should have the same chances, everyone cant be in the same programs in school. So why not give them a diploma, but then honestly, someone who cant pass the exams, are they really a high school graduate?

I have a friend that is a MP Staff Sgt in the Army he has his high school ged, so i disagree that they get limits on what they can do. Hes also an  instructor for things with Mil Police.

Don't know that I've seen it in eServices, and certainly never updated it. I think this is a case of poor data more than anything. I have VERY little faith in most stats that can be drawn from CAP's VERY flawed records.

But, of course we should be checking HS for officers when we submit them for promotion.

You'll find in the military that a GED is not the same as a HS diploma. We can only take a limited number of people with a GED per year, and there's some limitations on what's available to them. The reason for that is we're not talking about academic equiv or intelligence, which is what GED shows. We're showing an ability set goals, persist thru, & overcome to complete a program. That, much more than the major, is why college degrees are required for many jobs. If intelligence or academic knowledge were the more important factor, we'd just give an IQ test & not care about education levels.

I think you'll agree though that for CAP officers, we're looking for people that set an example for our cadets to stay in school, set goals & drive forward till they achieve them.

[wuzafuzz]

I also disagree that a traditional high school diploma means anything either. I knew someone who didnt even take her dang final exams and they still passed her. The High School Equiv Diploma (GED) they arent going to do that, you either get at least passing scores or you dont get any diploma. Also they say that the graduating high school seniors who take the ged test 37 % of them cant pass it. If a GED graduate earns the minium passing score allowed they out score 40 % of graduating seniors. Also I seen some stats on the work force and how many percent of ged grads out perform tradtional hs grads, you would be surprised. It all boils down to the person not what diploma they got. Case by case basis, but as I said at least the GED shows you posses graduating senior scores.

They even award diplomas to students with mental problems. Now, they should get a diploma, because I 100 % in my heart think everyone should have the same chances, everyone cant be in the same programs in school. So why not give them a diploma, but then honestly, someone who cant pass the exams, are they really a high school graduate?

I have a friend that is a MP Staff Sgt in the Army he has his high school ged, so i disagree that they get limits on what they can do. Hes also an  instructor for things with Mil Police.

Why on Earth would someone with mental problems be denied a high school diploma?  You can't possibly be suggesting a diploma means less if it is earned by a person with an anxiety disorder, depression, or ADD can you?  Perhaps you intended to reference people with learning disabilities?  Mental problems is a pretty wide range.

In employment situations it may boil down to the person in some cases, instead of the paper they were given or earned.  However, absent an opportunity to prove oneself over time, the paper will frequently win because it proves some level of experience, intellect, and commitment.  Of course this assumes all other factors are equal. 

As far as the limits placed on recruits with GED's, I suspect DNall means that candidates with GED's have a smaller selection of MOS's to choose from when they enlist.

[Rotorhead]

Either of the first two options would work.  As mentioned at the beginning of this thread, CAPWATCH is currently not a reliable indicator for member education levels. 

This really isn't all that complicated.

Are you going to ask a 50-year old SM to produce a diploma to be promoted to 2Lt?

What if it isn't just sitting in a drawer waiting to be pulled out?

[Cecil DP]

Either of the first two options would work.  As mentioned at the beginning of this thread, CAPWATCH is currently not a reliable indicator for member education levels. 

This really isn't all that complicated.

Are you going to ask a 50-year old SM to produce a diploma to be promoted to 2Lt?

What if it isn't just sitting in a drawer waiting to be pulled out?

Reminds me of the time I applied for a job and was asked to provide a High School diploma. When I gave them a college transcript and diploma they said that I still needed to prove I graduated from High School.

[Flying Pig]

My father ran into the same situation when he joined CAP about 20 years ago. He has a Bachelors, Masters and Doctorate in Theology and is an ordained minister throught the Assembly of God Church.  He couldnt find his GED.  Somewhere over the past 40 years and who knows how many moves he had misplaced it in a box.   The Sq. Commander refused to sign his membership and CAP HQ held up his Chaplain appointment until he found it.   It took him some time but he ultimately found it.  It was somewhat ridiculous.   He couldnt contact the H.S because he had dropped out of H.S. at age 17 to join the army for Vietnam.   Anyway, sometimes I think CAP needs to chill out a little and use a little common sense.

[Short Field]

How many squadrons ask new members to show their high school diplomas when they submit their membership applications?  Or ask to see the diplomas prior to promoting them?  Same for GEDs.

[lordmonar]

I know that we don't.

[RiverAux]

I didn't back when I was in a position to do so, probably because I just assumed every adult had a diploma or GED.  Were in that position now, I would want it to be proved such like we should do for other similar situations.

[lordmonar]

One level I would want to require people to provide the evidence.

But on another level I don't really care.  How many people would we loose because it is too much of a pain for them to find the silly thing in the first place?

Is it really that big of a deal in the long run?

I know of several very successful CAP officers who did not have diplomas.  I know of one officer who can't provide us a diploma because the country he got it in no longer exists and he is a political refugee from the government that over ran his country (Vietnam).  I think that asking some 55 year old to produce a 37 year old document to determin if he/she if fit to join our organisation is a little silly when he/she has 37 years of life experience and achievements that are vastly more important then the 3R's they learned in high school.

[RiverAux]

Is it a big deal?  In the big picture, probably not, but if I'm going to ask a supposed prior military person to prove their former rank I can't see how I could logically not ask that the same sort of proof be provided for this requirement.  Now, if they want to put a statement in the regs saying that a verbal statement by the member is adequate to meet this requirement, I would be fine with that. 

[lordmonar]

Like I said one on level I agree...but it is a little bit different then proving you are prior military or a PhD or CFI or a Lawyer/Doctor/Teacher/Chaplain.  Those individuals will get something extra...ergo I don't see a major problem with being a little more anal in those cases.

[RiverAux]

Well, technically this allows them to become a CAP officer.  Thats something...

[Grumpy]

C. S.