CAP officers and high school diplomas

[RiverAux]

Well yeah....personally I would have serious concerns about the ability of someone who has not completed high school or a GED to competently serve in our program.  At a bare minimum we need someone with the ability to read and comprehend our regulations. 

One might say, well our cadets haven't finished high school and they participate....well, they do so under strict adult supervision which would not always be the case with no-diploma seniors and they also have to follow a fairly strict academic schedule as part of their program. 

[Rob Sherlin]

Just out of curiosity......

   What if there was a member who has been a member for 20 years or more, reached a high rank, and was an outstanding officer and commander. Then you come to find out that member never graduated or had a GED. Would you have them stripped of their rank to NCO, even if they have proven themselves in their service for the rank they hold?

[RiverAux]

It would depend on whether that requirement was in place when they became a CAP officer and whether their education level was disclosed on their initial application.  I'm not familiar enough with the demotion requirements to say whether you could be demoted for an administrative overisight, but if it was something they lied about and were recently found out, then definetely they should be demoted.

They could only be demoted back to senior member, not to NCO (unless they happened to have been an NCO in the military).

[Rob Sherlin]

Sorry 'bout that. You're right, I should have said senior member instead.

  I agree that if someone is caught falsifying information or documentation, they should be delt with. But I think if it was an "overlook" by Admin. or whoever. Then I tend to think they should be able to keep the rank, especially if they've worked they're way through the process and earned it. Of course, it wouldn't hurt for them to go back and get a GED no matter what the age. I know guys who do it for kicks every so often, and employers like the fact that they like to keep fresh on the knowledge when they see several GED dates and ask about them. You'd be suprised on how much one forgets after they get out of school because a lot of it isn't used on a regular basis. How many people use "pi" or square roots in their daily life with exception of engineers maybe.

[lordmonar]

Well yeah....personally I would have serious concerns about the ability of someone who has not completed high school or a GED to competently serve in our program.  At a bare minimum we need someone with the ability to read and comprehend our regulations. 

Granted....but.......completing/not completing high school does not necessarily mean illiteracy.

What I am saying is....our average new member is usually 40+ years old (IIRC)...at that point he/she has demonstrated at least some ability to function in our society even if they never completed their GED/High School.

This kind of ties into the thread about requiring a degree to become an officer in CAP.

Except as a gate keeping function...what does this requirement really do?

I got a member who grew up in Vietnam....I have no idea if he "graduated" high school or not...but he certainly can read and understand our regulations...and that is with the added burden of it being his second language.

My personal feelings are that when placed against the reality filter this is really a non-issue.

[BillB]

In the past, many universities did not require a high school diploma. Rather they required an entrence exam. I know a PhD, a full university professor,  that never graduated from high school. I've heard it's possible to get an A.A. degree from the Community College of the Air Force, without a high school diploma.

[RiverAux]

Except as a gate keeping function...what does this requirement really do?

I'm fine with this as a gate-keeping function if nothing else. 

My personal feelings are that when placed against the reality filter this is really a non-issue.

Certainly I agree that it doesn't appear to be a major issue. 

[SarDragon]

IMHO, this looks like a solution looking for a problem. I think there are bigger fish to fry than this.

[RiverAux]

What is the solution that is being proposed?   I was just pointing out that we already have existing minimum education requirements for officers.

Are you saying that we should dump the existing requirement to have a high school diploma? 

[SarDragon]

No. I do think that going on an after the fact witch hunt, based on uncertain information, is an unnecessary effort.

[DNall]

You'll find in the military that a GED is not the same as a HS diploma. We can only take a limited number of people with a GED per year, and there's some limitations on what's available to them. The reason for that is we're not talking about academic equiv or intelligence, which is what GED shows. We're showing an ability set goals, persist thru, & overcome to complete a program. That, much more than the major, is why college degrees are required for many jobs. If intelligence or academic knowledge were the more important factor, we'd just give an IQ test & not care about education levels.

I think you'll agree though that for CAP officers, we're looking for people that set an example for our cadets to stay in school, set goals & drive forward till they achieve them.

   Yes, maybe that's how it is in regular military, but we're volunteers of an Auxilary of a Military branch, not actual military.

   If the rules were set too tough to make Officer, or set to where you can't make it at all. I think you'd end up with a lot of people not putting for the effort to learn and move forward in rank.....There would be no point of it. That and a lot of people would probably just quit.

   This way, even if a member never completed high school or anything. They always have a chance to better themselves, go and get there GED, and then be able to be promoted.

What does being a volunteer have to do with setting & completing goals, displaying some tenacity, etc.... all of those are necessary qualities to success, regardless of environment. And come on, we're talking about high school here, not college.

That said, I did NOT say GED was unacceptable. It's not unacceptable in the military. It's just limited how many we can take & what opportunities are open to them. Now, you go get one semester of college, and that all gets wiped away.

I actually have a GED. I was going to be half a credit short to graduate high school, so took it middle of my senior year & started college early. Now I'm an officer in the military. I wouldn't encourage people to go that route, but it's doesn't make me or anyone else less of a person or officer because of it.

Now, from a local unit membership board perspective, if a person dropped out of school & had just a GED, no further education; I would want to see life experience that showed they had that drive/goal-setting/tenacity/etc necessary to succeed. Otherwise I would be apt to deny membership. If they had only HS, I'd have a lot of the same questions too.

[lordmonar]

What is the solution that is being proposed?   I was just pointing out that we already have existing minimum education requirements for officers.

Are you saying that we should dump the existing requirement to have a high school diploma? 

It may be worth looking at.  In my experince, having a diploma or not has never been an issue.  There are a lot of parents of cadets who can not join because of this requirement who would otherwise be great assets to my squadron.

[DNall]

They don't have a minimum of EITHER a HS diploma or GED?

If that's the case, then they CAN still be members as the reg is currently written, they just can't be promoted to officer grade.

I have to say that's fair. They can be sponsor members, or SMWOG, or they can go take their GED & promote. I don't see where that applies to many people, where it restricts many people I'd want as staff officers, or where that's at all a bad thing. I think dropping that requirement would be bad.

If you want a solution looking for a problem on education & membership, how about over 18 cadets have to be full-time HS or college students to retain cadet membership.

[RiverAux]

You know, I was fairly sure that just by bringing up this topic (even though it wasn't my intent) that there would eventually be someone advocating that having a high school diploma was just too much to ask of a CAP officer and I've not been disappointed. 

Maybe in 6-12 months I'll start another topic on this issue and if I word the introductory post the right way will cause someone to say that requiring a 9th grade education of all officers is just too much....

I do think that going on an after the fact witch hunt, based on uncertain information, is an unnecessary effort.

I don't think anyone was suggesting that course of action, though I think it does make sense to update the database of those who apparently don't meet the requirement. 

[Major Carrales]

You know, I was fairly sure that just by bringing up this topic (even though it wasn't my intent) that there would eventually be someone advocating that having a high school diploma was just too much to ask of a CAP officer and I've not been disappointed. 

Maybe in 6-12 months I'll start another topic on this issue and if I word the introductory post the right way will cause someone to say that requiring a 9th grade education of all officers is just too much....

I do think that going on an after the fact witch hunt, based on uncertain information, is an unnecessary effort.

I don't think anyone was suggesting that course of action, though I think it does make sense to update the database of those who apparently don't meet the requirement. 

I'm curious...what would you have these people be?  Where would they fit.  It does not say they are not to be in CAP without a diploma.  Do we make them Airmen?  Special Officers? SMs?

Curious, if this thread gains traction among the policy makers, what becomes of these people?  What would you have them become?

[RiverAux]

As I said above, if they were promoted "accidentally" even though they had properly stated their education on their membership application, I would probably leave them be.  If CAP made a mistake, I wouldn't penalize them.  However, if they claimed education that they didn't in fact have, they probably should be kicked out or at least demoted, if it can be done in accordance with the regs. 

They would become senior members without grade.

[Major Carrales]

As I said above, if they were promoted "accidentally" even though they had properly stated their education on their membership application, I would probably leave them be.  If CAP made a mistake, I wouldn't penalize them.  However, if they claimed education that they didn't in fact have, they probably should be kicked out or at least demoted, if it can be done in accordance with the regs. 

They would become senior members without grade.

Fair enough...good answer.

[lordmonar]

You know, I was fairly sure that just by bringing up this topic (even though it wasn't my intent) that there would eventually be someone advocating that having a high school diploma was just too much to ask of a CAP officer and I've not been disappointed. 

Maybe in 6-12 months I'll start another topic on this issue and if I word the introductory post the right way will cause someone to say that requiring a 9th grade education of all officers is just too much....

Okay......I am a performance based sort of a guy.....I don't really care about creditials.

I care about people showing up and doing the job.....I member X can read the manuals, do the training, and is active in my squadron....I don't see what a piece of paper has any bearing on the subject.

Granted if the individual did not finish high school because he is a rock.....it would probably show up in his ability to do the CAP training and his ability to do the job....and I would not promote him beyond his abilities.

But if in 1962 Member X dropped out of highschool to go to work or join the military (or got drafted) and never went back to get his GED....I don't really care that much.  If he can do the job....let him do the job.

[Short Field]

Just curious since this seems to be a major requirement for promotion to 2Lt - how many of you have ever seen a new applicant's High School diploma or GED?  The only education verification I remember seeing is stuff required for skills related promotions - like educators or medical personnel.

[Fifinella]

The application asks for education level completed, IIRC.  Guess we're supposed to take them at their word.