CAP officers and high school diplomas

[RiverAux]

One of the requirements to become a CAP officer (and one for which there is no waiver) is to possess a high school diploma or equivalent (CAPR 35-5 1-6b). 

I recently checked my wing and according to CAPWATCH about 7% of the senior members who had their education levels listed had 11th grade or below education listed.  Now, when I looked a bit closer, its pretty obvious that almost all of them are former cadets who most likely had their grade level entered when they joined and haven't changed it since even after graduation.  However, I did find a handful of older folks who had less than a 12th grade level entered in the database.

Why bring this up?

1.  We've often had discussions of minimum education requirements for CAP officers and I'm not sure I've ever seen it mentioned that we have them now -- they're just not that high.

2.  Unit commanders might want to check on this to make sure that all their folks are listed correctly in the database.  Its not that big a deal, but why leave electronic data laying around that is wrong? 

3.  There may be a few folks out there who probably shouldn't be CAP officers based on this requirement.  I suspect it is a very, very tiny number, but unit commanders shouldn't just assume everyone has one.  To tell the truth, I'm not sure I ever checked that for new members joining my unit back when I was a sq cdr. 

[D2SK]

No offense, but, don't you have anything better to do?

[CAPLAW]

why the negativity?        Good research RIVERAUX.

[Short Field]

Applications go to National to be vetted before a person becomes a member.  If National accepts the member, then I am not going to second guess National.

CAP has been around long enough that even 50 year members could have entered as a Cadet.   I would also wonder what year the requirement for a high school education was created.  If you are checking CAPWATCH, I wouldn't worry too much about it.  I am sure when National first went to computers, a lot of invalid data was entered - especially on a field that would mean nothing to CAP (If Member then must have a H.S. Edu).  

Let sleeping dogs lie....

[RiverAux]

Ah, but you misunderstand... You can still be a senior member without a high school diploma -- either as an NCO or a senior member without grade.  So NHQ isn't going to care one way or the other what they say on their initial application. 

The high school diploma requirement only applies once you want to become a 2nd Lt. (or another rank through special appointment). 

FYI, there is a substantial minority of seniors who don't have any education level listed. 

[RiverAux]

No offense, but, don't you have anything better to do?

No.  Feel free to suggest a topic yourself -- if we all only started 1 topic every three months as some people do, there wouldn't be much action here.

[arajca]

OT...

No offense, but, don't you have anything better to do?

No.  Feel free to suggest a topic yourself -- if we all only started 1 topic every three months as some people do, there wouldn't be much action here.

Then again, there are enough of use here that there would be plenty to discuss...

[Flying Pig]

Good Grief Charlie Brown

[Rob Sherlin]

  Well, You also have to take in consideration that not all schools are the same as far as education level. I see 11th grade students out here studying the same books I studied in 9th grade in California. So, if what you're getting at is that a person who didn't complete high school shouldn't become an officer, than I'd have to disagree. I didn't complete high school. I dropped out of 11th grade and went to work as a stat camera operator and technical illustration trainee for Volt Technical, working on manuals and diagrams for Rockwell International, for Nasa's Space Shuttle Program. I did go back and get my GED though. I tend to think that a diploma just shows that you've completed high school, but it doesn't show your intelligence or what your capable of.
   But, if it's a requirement, then I'd better find a way to get a copy of my GED (my original was stolen with my file cabinet after I moved here to Niagara Falls and my apartment was burglarized), because I don't want to be held back because of a piece of paper.

[Rob Sherlin]

 Forgot to mention..When I dropped out for the job, I had allready been Flight Commander in my first year, and was last promoted to 2d.Lt. in  AFJROTC at my high school 3 months before I left, if that is any positive influence to my last input.
(sadly, it was too long ago to use in CAP......God I'm gettin' old!)

[Pylon]

Applications go to National to be vetted before a person becomes a member.  If National accepts the member, then I am not going to second guess National.

I have to disagree here.  The gaining unit and the commander are directly responsible for "vetting" new members.  That's why we have membership committees at the unit level.  That's why the commander or his/her representative must sign-off on all applicants before they hit national HQ.  The gaining unit should be ensuring the applicant meets all criteria, and should also be educating the member about the requirements, expectations and standards of membership.

National isn't going to look into everything.  They process the signed application, get the background screening info for SM applicants and put them in the database. 

So when you discover, during the membership interview you should be doing, that the potential new member doesn't have a high school diploma, it would be important here for one to let the applicant know that it will prevent them from holding CAP officer grade though they can still participate in most aspects of the CAP program.  If they find out after the fact, they may feel duped or mislead.

[winterg]

Well said Pylon and good topic River.  If it's a reg, it should be followed.  If info is incorrect in a CAP database it should be fixed.  I agree with you that we should pay more attention to some of these details that may seem trivial.  It goes to professionalism.  And if you think a random thought will make an interesting topic thread, post it. 

[LtCol057]

Just a dumb question, but where is the education level listed?  I just checked mine and I don't see it listed anywhere.  And yes, I graduated high school (feels like a hundred years ago), and have 2 degrees.

[RiverAux]

Its in the member table if you download capwatch.  Will take a look at the e-services personal information section later to see if I can find where it can be modified.

[DNall]

Don't know that I've seen it in eServices, and certainly never updated it. I think this is a case of poor data more than anything. I have VERY little faith in most stats that can be drawn from CAP's VERY flawed records.

But, of course we should be checking HS for officers when we submit them for promotion.

You'll find in the military that a GED is not the same as a HS diploma. We can only take a limited number of people with a GED per year, and there's some limitations on what's available to them. The reason for that is we're not talking about academic equiv or intelligence, which is what GED shows. We're showing an ability set goals, persist thru, & overcome to complete a program. That, much more than the major, is why college degrees are required for many jobs. If intelligence or academic knowledge were the more important factor, we'd just give an IQ test & not care about education levels.

I think you'll agree though that for CAP officers, we're looking for people that set an example for our cadets to stay in school, set goals & drive forward till they achieve them.

[RiverAux]

didn't see it in e-services.  It is on the membership applications, so maybe it is something they key in when somebody joins.  You would think there would be a way to update it locally. 

[afgeo4]

The requirement is HS Diploma OR equivalent, right?

[DNall]

yes

[Rob Sherlin]

   Yes, maybe that's how it is in regular military, but we're volunteers of an Auxilary of a Military branch, not actual military.

   If the rules were set too tough to make Officer, or set to where you can't make it at all. I think you'd end up with a lot of people not putting for the effort to learn and move forward in rank.....There would be no point of it. That and a lot of people would probably just quit.

   This way, even if a member never completed high school or anything. They always have a chance to better themselves, go and get there GED, and then be able to be promoted.

[lordmonar]

On the other hand...when you consider the average age of our new members.....getting their GED is probably no high on their agendas.

On that note....are they really all that important when compared to the life experinces that some of these members bring to CAP?

[RiverAux]

Well yeah....personally I would have serious concerns about the ability of someone who has not completed high school or a GED to competently serve in our program.  At a bare minimum we need someone with the ability to read and comprehend our regulations. 

One might say, well our cadets haven't finished high school and they participate....well, they do so under strict adult supervision which would not always be the case with no-diploma seniors and they also have to follow a fairly strict academic schedule as part of their program. 

[Rob Sherlin]

Just out of curiosity......

   What if there was a member who has been a member for 20 years or more, reached a high rank, and was an outstanding officer and commander. Then you come to find out that member never graduated or had a GED. Would you have them stripped of their rank to NCO, even if they have proven themselves in their service for the rank they hold?

[RiverAux]

It would depend on whether that requirement was in place when they became a CAP officer and whether their education level was disclosed on their initial application.  I'm not familiar enough with the demotion requirements to say whether you could be demoted for an administrative overisight, but if it was something they lied about and were recently found out, then definetely they should be demoted.

They could only be demoted back to senior member, not to NCO (unless they happened to have been an NCO in the military).

[Rob Sherlin]

Sorry 'bout that. You're right, I should have said senior member instead.

  I agree that if someone is caught falsifying information or documentation, they should be delt with. But I think if it was an "overlook" by Admin. or whoever. Then I tend to think they should be able to keep the rank, especially if they've worked they're way through the process and earned it. Of course, it wouldn't hurt for them to go back and get a GED no matter what the age. I know guys who do it for kicks every so often, and employers like the fact that they like to keep fresh on the knowledge when they see several GED dates and ask about them. You'd be suprised on how much one forgets after they get out of school because a lot of it isn't used on a regular basis. How many people use "pi" or square roots in their daily life with exception of engineers maybe.

[lordmonar]

Well yeah....personally I would have serious concerns about the ability of someone who has not completed high school or a GED to competently serve in our program.  At a bare minimum we need someone with the ability to read and comprehend our regulations. 

Granted....but.......completing/not completing high school does not necessarily mean illiteracy.

What I am saying is....our average new member is usually 40+ years old (IIRC)...at that point he/she has demonstrated at least some ability to function in our society even if they never completed their GED/High School.

This kind of ties into the thread about requiring a degree to become an officer in CAP.

Except as a gate keeping function...what does this requirement really do?

I got a member who grew up in Vietnam....I have no idea if he "graduated" high school or not...but he certainly can read and understand our regulations...and that is with the added burden of it being his second language.

My personal feelings are that when placed against the reality filter this is really a non-issue.

[BillB]

In the past, many universities did not require a high school diploma. Rather they required an entrence exam. I know a PhD, a full university professor,  that never graduated from high school. I've heard it's possible to get an A.A. degree from the Community College of the Air Force, without a high school diploma.

[RiverAux]

Except as a gate keeping function...what does this requirement really do?

I'm fine with this as a gate-keeping function if nothing else. 

My personal feelings are that when placed against the reality filter this is really a non-issue.

Certainly I agree that it doesn't appear to be a major issue. 

[SarDragon]

IMHO, this looks like a solution looking for a problem. I think there are bigger fish to fry than this.

[RiverAux]

What is the solution that is being proposed?   I was just pointing out that we already have existing minimum education requirements for officers.

Are you saying that we should dump the existing requirement to have a high school diploma? 

[SarDragon]

No. I do think that going on an after the fact witch hunt, based on uncertain information, is an unnecessary effort.

[DNall]

You'll find in the military that a GED is not the same as a HS diploma. We can only take a limited number of people with a GED per year, and there's some limitations on what's available to them. The reason for that is we're not talking about academic equiv or intelligence, which is what GED shows. We're showing an ability set goals, persist thru, & overcome to complete a program. That, much more than the major, is why college degrees are required for many jobs. If intelligence or academic knowledge were the more important factor, we'd just give an IQ test & not care about education levels.

I think you'll agree though that for CAP officers, we're looking for people that set an example for our cadets to stay in school, set goals & drive forward till they achieve them.

   Yes, maybe that's how it is in regular military, but we're volunteers of an Auxilary of a Military branch, not actual military.

   If the rules were set too tough to make Officer, or set to where you can't make it at all. I think you'd end up with a lot of people not putting for the effort to learn and move forward in rank.....There would be no point of it. That and a lot of people would probably just quit.

   This way, even if a member never completed high school or anything. They always have a chance to better themselves, go and get there GED, and then be able to be promoted.

What does being a volunteer have to do with setting & completing goals, displaying some tenacity, etc.... all of those are necessary qualities to success, regardless of environment. And come on, we're talking about high school here, not college.

That said, I did NOT say GED was unacceptable. It's not unacceptable in the military. It's just limited how many we can take & what opportunities are open to them. Now, you go get one semester of college, and that all gets wiped away.

I actually have a GED. I was going to be half a credit short to graduate high school, so took it middle of my senior year & started college early. Now I'm an officer in the military. I wouldn't encourage people to go that route, but it's doesn't make me or anyone else less of a person or officer because of it.

Now, from a local unit membership board perspective, if a person dropped out of school & had just a GED, no further education; I would want to see life experience that showed they had that drive/goal-setting/tenacity/etc necessary to succeed. Otherwise I would be apt to deny membership. If they had only HS, I'd have a lot of the same questions too.

[lordmonar]

What is the solution that is being proposed?   I was just pointing out that we already have existing minimum education requirements for officers.

Are you saying that we should dump the existing requirement to have a high school diploma? 

It may be worth looking at.  In my experince, having a diploma or not has never been an issue.  There are a lot of parents of cadets who can not join because of this requirement who would otherwise be great assets to my squadron.

[DNall]

They don't have a minimum of EITHER a HS diploma or GED?

If that's the case, then they CAN still be members as the reg is currently written, they just can't be promoted to officer grade.

I have to say that's fair. They can be sponsor members, or SMWOG, or they can go take their GED & promote. I don't see where that applies to many people, where it restricts many people I'd want as staff officers, or where that's at all a bad thing. I think dropping that requirement would be bad.

If you want a solution looking for a problem on education & membership, how about over 18 cadets have to be full-time HS or college students to retain cadet membership.

[RiverAux]

You know, I was fairly sure that just by bringing up this topic (even though it wasn't my intent) that there would eventually be someone advocating that having a high school diploma was just too much to ask of a CAP officer and I've not been disappointed. 

Maybe in 6-12 months I'll start another topic on this issue and if I word the introductory post the right way will cause someone to say that requiring a 9th grade education of all officers is just too much....

I do think that going on an after the fact witch hunt, based on uncertain information, is an unnecessary effort.

I don't think anyone was suggesting that course of action, though I think it does make sense to update the database of those who apparently don't meet the requirement. 

[Major Carrales]

You know, I was fairly sure that just by bringing up this topic (even though it wasn't my intent) that there would eventually be someone advocating that having a high school diploma was just too much to ask of a CAP officer and I've not been disappointed. 

Maybe in 6-12 months I'll start another topic on this issue and if I word the introductory post the right way will cause someone to say that requiring a 9th grade education of all officers is just too much....

I do think that going on an after the fact witch hunt, based on uncertain information, is an unnecessary effort.

I don't think anyone was suggesting that course of action, though I think it does make sense to update the database of those who apparently don't meet the requirement. 

I'm curious...what would you have these people be?  Where would they fit.  It does not say they are not to be in CAP without a diploma.  Do we make them Airmen?  Special Officers? SMs?

Curious, if this thread gains traction among the policy makers, what becomes of these people?  What would you have them become?

[RiverAux]

As I said above, if they were promoted "accidentally" even though they had properly stated their education on their membership application, I would probably leave them be.  If CAP made a mistake, I wouldn't penalize them.  However, if they claimed education that they didn't in fact have, they probably should be kicked out or at least demoted, if it can be done in accordance with the regs. 

They would become senior members without grade.

[Major Carrales]

As I said above, if they were promoted "accidentally" even though they had properly stated their education on their membership application, I would probably leave them be.  If CAP made a mistake, I wouldn't penalize them.  However, if they claimed education that they didn't in fact have, they probably should be kicked out or at least demoted, if it can be done in accordance with the regs. 

They would become senior members without grade.

Fair enough...good answer.

[lordmonar]

You know, I was fairly sure that just by bringing up this topic (even though it wasn't my intent) that there would eventually be someone advocating that having a high school diploma was just too much to ask of a CAP officer and I've not been disappointed. 

Maybe in 6-12 months I'll start another topic on this issue and if I word the introductory post the right way will cause someone to say that requiring a 9th grade education of all officers is just too much....

Okay......I am a performance based sort of a guy.....I don't really care about creditials.

I care about people showing up and doing the job.....I member X can read the manuals, do the training, and is active in my squadron....I don't see what a piece of paper has any bearing on the subject.

Granted if the individual did not finish high school because he is a rock.....it would probably show up in his ability to do the CAP training and his ability to do the job....and I would not promote him beyond his abilities.

But if in 1962 Member X dropped out of highschool to go to work or join the military (or got drafted) and never went back to get his GED....I don't really care that much.  If he can do the job....let him do the job.

[Short Field]

Just curious since this seems to be a major requirement for promotion to 2Lt - how many of you have ever seen a new applicant's High School diploma or GED?  The only education verification I remember seeing is stuff required for skills related promotions - like educators or medical personnel.

[Fifinella]

The application asks for education level completed, IIRC.  Guess we're supposed to take them at their word.

[Rob Sherlin]

  Rules and regulations can always be changed.......When you set something in stone to the point where it can't be changed, you're pretty much saying it's perfect....NOTHING IN THIS WORLD IS PERFECT!......Once you close the mind to such possibilities, then you stop learning there is more.

  I'm glad to see there's a lot of people who agree that when it comes down to it, a diploma is just a piece of paper that proves you went through high school to completion, but it doesn't judge your capability (even as far as diplomas are concerned, there's people who pass with high GPA, and people who just make it by the skin of their teeth)

  For someone who is young and just out of high school, I'd want to see a diploma or GED and want to know their plans in life. For someone older, I'd tend to look at what they've accomplished, where they're at now, their goals, etc.

[Short Field]

The application asks for education level completed, IIRC.  Guess we're supposed to take them at their word.

Good.  If I had a slug I didn't want to promoted and he didn't show a high school completion (GED or diploma) in the database, it could be nice to ask to see it.  If I had a good person, I would ask them to just correct their application to show the date of their high school completion...

[Capt Rivera]

Good.  If I had a slug I didn't want to promoted and he didn't show a high school completion (GED or diploma) in the database, it could be nice to ask to see it.  If I had a good person, I would ask them to just correct their application to show the date of their high school completion...

Does not sound like you would be promoting based on set and defined standards... If you did that you would be asking for someone to contact the next level in the COC to get you removed from command....

As a commander, you need legitimate reasons to approve/disapprove promotion. If you don't have a level playing field as far as requirements & expectancies your asking for discrimination issues... [the "slug" will choose which category fits to his/her situation best]

If you don't promote someone because they are incompetent, does not display the appropriate demeanor, leadership traits, skills, knowledge or does not actively participate, that is all fine and correct... You should be able to define those things to that person and anyone else and your definition should be the same no matter who your dealing with...

Simply put... if you request to physically see a diploma from one... you need to do the same for all....

As a PDO, when someone meets the minimums required, I put the paperwork in and its up to the commander from there... If the promotion is denied, all I need to know is why, and what needs to be met for it to go through so that I can relate that information to the member and work with them to accomplish their goals....
After all, promotions are earned not given...

If I was told, that person is a slug, I don't like him and I just won't promote him... with no reason why not, or if the commander was to arbitrarily use a regulation citation to not promote someone but has no history of previous use and then does not continue to use that particular regulation from that point on... rest assured I would recommend that the commander resign before I asked the next command level to fire him/her for cause....

There are plenty of legit reasons to not promote someone... Just keep it legit when you choose not to promote that good for nothing slug... 

[Short Field]

^^^^ First, my post was in jest.  Second, it would be a legitimate reason not to promote - the person does not have a HS diploma or GED.  It is spelled out in the regs.  End of story.

[Cecil DP]

^^^^ First, my post was in jest.  Second, it would be a legitimate reason not to promote - the person does not have a HS diploma or GED.  It is spelled out in the regs.  End of story.

Now if National just collected updated information upon renewal or provided a way to update it under E-services, your argument would be legitimate.  But they don't and when filling out a CAPF2 or initiating a promotion under E-services that criteria is not listed. 

[Capt Rivera]

^^^^ First, my post was in jest.  Second, it would be a legitimate reason not to promote - the person does not have a HS diploma or GED.  It is spelled out in the regs.  End of story.

Not if your applying the requirement only to the people you choose to require it from. Which is what you clearly indicated.

Good.  If I had a slug I didn't want to promoted and he didn't show a high school completion (GED or diploma) in the database, it could be nice to ask to see it.  If I had a good person, I would ask them to just correct their application to show the date of their high school completion...

Jesting or not... you should read up on the ethics of command

[Short Field]

I don't worry about my ethics - and there is nothing CAP can teach me about ethics of command that I didn't get embedded into my very fiber from the USAF before I retired.  If my ethics were ever an issue I would not have survived leading almost 1600 people (all branches of the RM plus foreign officers and civilians) for three years in my last assignment.  Didn't do too badly as we did earn two JMUAs and one CIA citation.  I get called a lot of things, but unethical has never been one of them.

However, you have totally missed the entire intent of this discussion and my rhetorical comments which is that NO ONE EVER GOES BACKS AND CHECKS A PERSON"S APPLICATION TO SEE IF A PERSON HAS A HS DIPLOMA BEFORE PROMOTING THEM.  It is NOT one of the checks in the promotion module of eServices or on the CAPF 2 and because it is not, it will not be check.  If National was really serious about this requirement, they would have added it to the promotion module and the CAPF 2.

FYI, I have never promoted or recommend someone for promotion who has not satisfied all the requirements I am aware of for promotion nor have I ever denied promotion to anyone who has met the requirements.  The only exception to this would be promotion of members without a HS diploma or GED and that is simply because until this thread started, it never passed my mind to check before promoting anyone to 2Lt. 

[SarDragon]

CAWG requires an additional entry in the remarks section:

2. In Section VIII (Remarks) of CAPF 2, enter:
(a) Member's date of birth.
(b) Statement that the member is a high school graduate or has the educational equivalent.
(c) Statement that the member has been performing his/her duties in an exemplary manner and is recommended for promotion by the unit commander.
(d) For mission related promotions the unit commander must certify that the member is actively utilizing his/her mission related skills in behalf of CAP on a regular basis.

The above information is provided for informational purposes only, and is neither a positive nor negative endorsement of the policy. It solves the perceived problem in the OP.

YMMV. Nomex on.

[DogCollar]

To be appointed a Chaplain in CAP an applicant must submit a college and seminary transcript, because the application process has educational requirements.  If we require a High School diploma or GED for other members to be promoted, it would make since to require some documentation. 

[Capt Rivera]

I don't worry about my ethics - and there is nothing CAP can teach me about ethics of command that I didn't get embedded into my very fiber from the USAF before I retired.  If my ethics were ever an issue I would not have survived leading almost 1600 people (all branches of the RM plus foreign officers and civilians) for three years in my last assignment.  Didn't do too badly as we did earn two JMUAs and one CIA citation.  I get called a lot of things, but unethical has never been one of them.

However, you have totally missed the entire intent of this discussion and my rhetorical comments which is that NO ONE EVER GOES BACKS AND CHECKS A PERSON"S APPLICATION TO SEE IF A PERSON HAS A HS DIPLOMA BEFORE PROMOTING THEM.  It is NOT one of the checks in the promotion module of eServices or on the CAPF 2 and because it is not, it will not be check.  If National was really serious about this requirement, they would have added it to the promotion module and the CAPF 2.

FYI, I have never promoted or recommend someone for promotion who has not satisfied all the requirements I am aware of for promotion nor have I ever denied promotion to anyone who has met the requirements.  The only exception to this would be promotion of members without a HS diploma or GED and that is simply because until this thread started, it never passed my mind to check before promoting anyone to 2Lt. 

yea okay... I'll just let the issue lie

[Eclipse]

NO ONE EVER GOES BACKS AND CHECKS A PERSON"S APPLICATION TO SEE IF A PERSON HAS A HS DIPLOMA BEFORE PROMOTING THEM.

My people will now....

[BillB]

What do you do if a member hasn't graduated from high school, but graduated from a University? I know several that fall into this grouping.

[NC Hokie]

What do you do if a member hasn't graduated from high school, but graduated from a University? I know several that fall into this grouping.

This isn't an official answer but I'd say that would do the trick as a high school diploma or equivalent is required for admission to most universities.  If the university decides that someone has met those requirements and then awards a degree, that ought to be good enough for us.

[Eclipse]

What do you do if a member hasn't graduated from high school, but graduated from a University? I know several that fall into this grouping.

How would they get into a university without a high school diploma or GED?

[notaNCO forever]

What do you do if a member hasn't graduated from high school, but graduated from a University? I know several that fall into this grouping.

How would they get into a university without a high school diploma or GED?

Go to community college get a diploma from there and transfer.

[Al Sayre]

I have actually denied a promotion based on no HS Diploma twice.  I had two 18yr-old cadets transfer to Senior Member status while still in High School.  They were very suprised when I told them no promotion to FO until they graduated... 

[Smitty]

I have actually denied a promotion based on no HS Diploma twice.  I had two 18yr-old cadets transfer to Senior Member status while still in High School.  They were very suprised when I told them no promotion to FO until they graduated... 

I did the same thing, but I only had to wait a few weeks because I went Senior the same month I graduated.  My records were never actually updated to reflect graduation either.  Funny thing is that I don't have any idea where my HS diploma is anyway, not tha it matters anyway.

[BillB]

Eclipse.....
Many colleges allow an enterence exam rather than a HS diploma. They also allow college credits for military courses based on American Council on Education recommendations. The enterence exam concept seems to have strengthened after the Korean war when many high school students that had enlisted in the reserves were called to active duty prior to graduation.

[Short Field]

I only have one issue with requiring a HS diplomas for promotion.  We require it but we never ask to see it.  If it is a requirement, we need to validate that it does exist and then enter it into eServices so it is recorded.  We are required to validate that other certificates and degrees actually exist when we promote people based on advanced education or skills.   The HS diploma is not required in the personal file.  We have members who transfer in and we never even see their original CAP application as the losing unit didn't give it to the member when he transferred and never responses to requests for it. 

[RiverAux]

Well, like all such things it is up to the commander to check.  If he/she isn't asking, they aren't doing it right.  No national policy change is required, just implementation of the existing rules.

[Short Field]

So the commander asks and the member says, "yep, I got a HS diploma, just forgot to put it down".  Do you ask to see it every time?

[RiverAux]

Not every time.  Once should be enough to verify the qualification.

[Short Field]

^^^ Do you ask to see a SM's High School Diploma or equivalent every time you promote a SM to 2nd Lt?  Or do you ask to see a applicant's High School Diploma or equivalent before you send the applicant to National so you can verify it then?   Or do you rely on the CAPWATCH database to determine the education level (based on unvalidated data)?

[RiverAux]

Either of the first two options would work.  As mentioned at the beginning of this thread, CAPWATCH is currently not a reliable indicator for member education levels. 

This really isn't all that complicated.

[SM-MADDOG]

I also disagree that a traditional high school diploma means anything either. I knew someone who didnt even take her dang final exams and they still passed her. The High School Equiv Diploma (GED) they arent going to do that, you either get at least passing scores or you dont get any diploma. Also they say that the graduating high school seniors who take the ged test 37 % of them cant pass it. If a GED graduate earns the minium passing score allowed they out score 40 % of graduating seniors. Also I seen some stats on the work force and how many percent of ged grads out perform tradtional hs grads, you would be surprised. It all boils down to the person not what diploma they got. Case by case basis, but as I said at least the GED shows you posses graduating senior scores.

They even award diplomas to students with mental problems. Now, they should get a diploma, because I 100 % in my heart think everyone should have the same chances, everyone cant be in the same programs in school. So why not give them a diploma, but then honestly, someone who cant pass the exams, are they really a high school graduate?

I have a friend that is a MP Staff Sgt in the Army he has his high school ged, so i disagree that they get limits on what they can do. Hes also an  instructor for things with Mil Police.

Don't know that I've seen it in eServices, and certainly never updated it. I think this is a case of poor data more than anything. I have VERY little faith in most stats that can be drawn from CAP's VERY flawed records.

But, of course we should be checking HS for officers when we submit them for promotion.

You'll find in the military that a GED is not the same as a HS diploma. We can only take a limited number of people with a GED per year, and there's some limitations on what's available to them. The reason for that is we're not talking about academic equiv or intelligence, which is what GED shows. We're showing an ability set goals, persist thru, & overcome to complete a program. That, much more than the major, is why college degrees are required for many jobs. If intelligence or academic knowledge were the more important factor, we'd just give an IQ test & not care about education levels.

I think you'll agree though that for CAP officers, we're looking for people that set an example for our cadets to stay in school, set goals & drive forward till they achieve them.

[wuzafuzz]

I also disagree that a traditional high school diploma means anything either. I knew someone who didnt even take her dang final exams and they still passed her. The High School Equiv Diploma (GED) they arent going to do that, you either get at least passing scores or you dont get any diploma. Also they say that the graduating high school seniors who take the ged test 37 % of them cant pass it. If a GED graduate earns the minium passing score allowed they out score 40 % of graduating seniors. Also I seen some stats on the work force and how many percent of ged grads out perform tradtional hs grads, you would be surprised. It all boils down to the person not what diploma they got. Case by case basis, but as I said at least the GED shows you posses graduating senior scores.

They even award diplomas to students with mental problems. Now, they should get a diploma, because I 100 % in my heart think everyone should have the same chances, everyone cant be in the same programs in school. So why not give them a diploma, but then honestly, someone who cant pass the exams, are they really a high school graduate?

I have a friend that is a MP Staff Sgt in the Army he has his high school ged, so i disagree that they get limits on what they can do. Hes also an  instructor for things with Mil Police.

Why on Earth would someone with mental problems be denied a high school diploma?  You can't possibly be suggesting a diploma means less if it is earned by a person with an anxiety disorder, depression, or ADD can you?  Perhaps you intended to reference people with learning disabilities?  Mental problems is a pretty wide range.

In employment situations it may boil down to the person in some cases, instead of the paper they were given or earned.  However, absent an opportunity to prove oneself over time, the paper will frequently win because it proves some level of experience, intellect, and commitment.  Of course this assumes all other factors are equal. 

As far as the limits placed on recruits with GED's, I suspect DNall means that candidates with GED's have a smaller selection of MOS's to choose from when they enlist.

[Rotorhead]

Either of the first two options would work.  As mentioned at the beginning of this thread, CAPWATCH is currently not a reliable indicator for member education levels. 

This really isn't all that complicated.

Are you going to ask a 50-year old SM to produce a diploma to be promoted to 2Lt?

What if it isn't just sitting in a drawer waiting to be pulled out?

[Cecil DP]

Either of the first two options would work.  As mentioned at the beginning of this thread, CAPWATCH is currently not a reliable indicator for member education levels. 

This really isn't all that complicated.

Are you going to ask a 50-year old SM to produce a diploma to be promoted to 2Lt?

What if it isn't just sitting in a drawer waiting to be pulled out?

Reminds me of the time I applied for a job and was asked to provide a High School diploma. When I gave them a college transcript and diploma they said that I still needed to prove I graduated from High School.

[Flying Pig]

My father ran into the same situation when he joined CAP about 20 years ago. He has a Bachelors, Masters and Doctorate in Theology and is an ordained minister throught the Assembly of God Church.  He couldnt find his GED.  Somewhere over the past 40 years and who knows how many moves he had misplaced it in a box.   The Sq. Commander refused to sign his membership and CAP HQ held up his Chaplain appointment until he found it.   It took him some time but he ultimately found it.  It was somewhat ridiculous.   He couldnt contact the H.S because he had dropped out of H.S. at age 17 to join the army for Vietnam.   Anyway, sometimes I think CAP needs to chill out a little and use a little common sense.

[Short Field]

How many squadrons ask new members to show their high school diplomas when they submit their membership applications?  Or ask to see the diplomas prior to promoting them?  Same for GEDs.

[lordmonar]

I know that we don't.

[RiverAux]

I didn't back when I was in a position to do so, probably because I just assumed every adult had a diploma or GED.  Were in that position now, I would want it to be proved such like we should do for other similar situations.

[lordmonar]

One level I would want to require people to provide the evidence.

But on another level I don't really care.  How many people would we loose because it is too much of a pain for them to find the silly thing in the first place?

Is it really that big of a deal in the long run?

I know of several very successful CAP officers who did not have diplomas.  I know of one officer who can't provide us a diploma because the country he got it in no longer exists and he is a political refugee from the government that over ran his country (Vietnam).  I think that asking some 55 year old to produce a 37 year old document to determin if he/she if fit to join our organisation is a little silly when he/she has 37 years of life experience and achievements that are vastly more important then the 3R's they learned in high school.

[RiverAux]

Is it a big deal?  In the big picture, probably not, but if I'm going to ask a supposed prior military person to prove their former rank I can't see how I could logically not ask that the same sort of proof be provided for this requirement.  Now, if they want to put a statement in the regs saying that a verbal statement by the member is adequate to meet this requirement, I would be fine with that. 

[lordmonar]

Like I said one on level I agree...but it is a little bit different then proving you are prior military or a PhD or CFI or a Lawyer/Doctor/Teacher/Chaplain.  Those individuals will get something extra...ergo I don't see a major problem with being a little more anal in those cases.

[RiverAux]

Well, technically this allows them to become a CAP officer.  Thats something...

[Grumpy]

C. S.