Initial Promotion For Prior Military Officers and NCOs

[stillamarine]

In the real world, if you're a paid member of one of those three organizations, you usually don't get demoted. You just get fired.

It's not uncommon in the LEA world to go back on the street and lose some stripes or the white shirt.

Actually, that is extremely uncommon once supervisory rank is reached (typically at sergeant). If whatever you did was bad enough to get demoted, it's usually enough for termination. The exceptions being failure to complete promotional probation period satisfactorily; reduction from exempt command ranks back to highest earned civil service rank when a new boss comes in (but that's typically to about lieutenant or captain, at worst); demotion due to reduction in slots due to budget cuts. I did know one chief who went all the way down to patrol officer, but it was a highly publicized "old times sake" thing immediately prior to retirement.

Depends on the agency I guess. In my department we've had it happen quite a few times. I can name a few Sgts that are no longer Sgts. All disciplinary. Although I can't think of a Lt or above where that has happened. Most of the time they are eligible for retirement. We had a DC that get in trouble for getting an officer pregnant (he was married). They let him retire. I knew a captain that was wild crazy. All sorts of stories about her. She retired.

We may be slightly different as all of our ranks are through the personnel board.

[Flying Pig]

In the real world, if you're a paid member of one of those three organizations, you usually don't get demoted. You just get fired.

It's not uncommon in the LEA world to go back on the street and lose some stripes or the white shirt.

Actually, that is extremely uncommon once supervisory rank is reached (typically at sergeant). If whatever you did was bad enough to get demoted, it's usually enough for termination. The exceptions being failure to complete promotional probation period satisfactorily; reduction from exempt command ranks back to highest earned civil service rank when a new boss comes in (but that's typically to about lieutenant or captain, at worst); demotion due to reduction in slots due to budget cuts. I did know one chief who went all the way down to patrol officer, but it was a highly publicized "old times sake" thing immediately prior to retirement.

Depends on the agency I guess. In my department we've had it happen quite a few times. I can name a few Sgts that are no longer Sgts. All disciplinary. Although I can't think of a Lt or above where that has happened. Most of the time they are eligible for retirement. We had a DC that get in trouble for getting an officer pregnant (he was married). They let him retire. I knew a captain that was wild crazy. All sorts of stories about her. She retired.

We may be slightly different as all of our ranks are through the personnel board.

Its actually pretty common..... that's just my experience having worked for 4 agencies in 2 states.  Many times a demotion has nothing to do with corruption or illegal activity.  Many times the person is promoted and simply fails the probationary term, makes a bad decision on a call, etc.  The reasons they are demoted has nothing to really do with anything that may get them fired or sent to jail.  Its just determined for whatever reason that they just no longer need to be a supervisor. 

[stillamarine]

In the real world, if you're a paid member of one of those three organizations, you usually don't get demoted. You just get fired.

It's not uncommon in the LEA world to go back on the street and lose some stripes or the white shirt.

Actually, that is extremely uncommon once supervisory rank is reached (typically at sergeant). If whatever you did was bad enough to get demoted, it's usually enough for termination. The exceptions being failure to complete promotional probation period satisfactorily; reduction from exempt command ranks back to highest earned civil service rank when a new boss comes in (but that's typically to about lieutenant or captain, at worst); demotion due to reduction in slots due to budget cuts. I did know one chief who went all the way down to patrol officer, but it was a highly publicized "old times sake" thing immediately prior to retirement.

Depends on the agency I guess. In my department we've had it happen quite a few times. I can name a few Sgts that are no longer Sgts. All disciplinary. Although I can't think of a Lt or above where that has happened. Most of the time they are eligible for retirement. We had a DC that get in trouble for getting an officer pregnant (he was married). They let him retire. I knew a captain that was wild crazy. All sorts of stories about her. She retired.

We may be slightly different as all of our ranks are through the personnel board.

Its actually pretty common..... that's just my experience having worked for 4 agencies in 2 states.  Many times a demotion has nothing to do with corruption or illegal activity.  Many times the person is promoted and simply fails the probationary term, makes a bad decision on a call, etc.  The reasons they are demoted has nothing to really do with anything that may get them fired or sent to jail.  Its just determined for whatever reason that they just no longer need to be a supervisor.

Orrrr, the newly promoted Sgt that tells the deputy chief that hes a dumb ****, and the only reason he was promoted to DC was because he's the mayor's frat brother.

[Mitchell 1969]

In the real world, if you're a paid member of one of those three organizations, you usually don't get demoted. You just get fired.

It's not uncommon in the LEA world to go back on the street and lose some stripes or the white shirt.

Actually, that is extremely uncommon once supervisory rank is reached (typically at sergeant). If whatever you did was bad enough to get demoted, it's usually enough for termination. The exceptions being failure to complete promotional probation period satisfactorily; reduction from exempt command ranks back to highest earned civil service rank when a new boss comes in (but that's typically to about lieutenant or captain, at worst); demotion due to reduction in slots due to budget cuts. I did know one chief who went all the way down to patrol officer, but it was a highly publicized "old times sake" thing immediately prior to retirement.

Depends on the agency I guess. In my department we've had it happen quite a few times. I can name a few Sgts that are no longer Sgts. All disciplinary. Although I can't think of a Lt or above where that has happened. Most of the time they are eligible for retirement. We had a DC that get in trouble for getting an officer pregnant (he was married). They let him retire. I knew a captain that was wild crazy. All sorts of stories about her. She retired.

We may be slightly different as all of our ranks are through the personnel board.

Its actually pretty common..... that's just my experience having worked for 4 agencies in 2 states.  Many times a demotion has nothing to do with corruption or illegal activity.  Many times the person is promoted and simply fails the probationary term, makes a bad decision on a call, etc.  The reasons they are demoted has nothing to really do with anything that may get them fired or sent to jail.  Its just determined for whatever reason that they just no longer need to be a supervisor.

I guess YMMV. I've rarely seen it or heard of it, except, as I said, for failure to complete probation, reduction to earned rank from appointed ranks following chief or sheriff changes or reduction in force. And, one other - I've seen a few voluntary reversions where guys just figure out that this isn't what they wanted.

Bad supervisory calls are usually learning experiences. Habitual bad supervisory calls merit disciplinary action, maybe followed by an "uncle" planting the reversion idea. In any case, all reasons combined, my experience was that it is not a common thing.

[USACAP]

Agree vehemently with everything you said here wingnut55. +1
I'm sitting on 25 years of military service, if I was joining CAP and some commander like that wouldn't process the paperwork to match my military grade, I'd find a new squadron. Then I'd probably come back and make that guy's life miserable.
That said, EVERYONE should complete Level-1 as soon as humanly possible. For a field grade officer, L1 should be an hour of clicking through stuff - it's not difficult materiel.

So because of your personal opinion you refuse to follow CAP REG 35-5, It does not give you the Right to Refuse, or the right to add additional hoops to jump through at your discretion or fancy. For all the readers here, CAP rank is just Honorary to the Air Force, A CAP Officer must complete certain tasks, attend certain functions (such as a Wing convention), and so many years between promotions. Is it possible to be a Lt Col. in CAP with no High School degree, no skills, just good attendance at functions and limited hoops: Yes, I know of several. Ones has spent 30 years as a janitor, no High School. The Air Force thinks so little of our CAP rank that they require CAP to wear rank that is distinctively different from the military. And Military personnel are Instructed that they may chose to NOT Salute a CAP officer, because CAP rank is strictly Honorary, that's why Doctors, Lawyers, School Teachers, CFI's General Radio Telephone Operator license holders are "Given" advanced rank.

Contrast that with the requirements to be a Commissioned Officer in the US Military. Education, Education, Education, proven command ability, designated technical skills, advanced education, advanced military tactics and military organization schools, minimum time in grade, no adverse events (social and Legal), maintain a security clearance as needed, proven leadership and supervisory skills, adherence to regulations and directives, years of deployments away from family, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

So CAP wants to be part of the Military, But you decide what rules will be followed at the whim of a local commander, And I use that term with little respect, because in my over 40 year connection with CAP, most local commanders are chosen, solely because No one wants the job. The common joke is you pick the one who is sleeping.

Finally I would like to add that as a veteran you offend me, I suspect you are not former military. In my little world of CAP much of my flying has been in direct support of the US Military of all branches. Most of the members that I work with are retired Military, do you think a local commander made them do the Michael Jackson moon walk before they pinned on there "used" Major oak leaf ?

So how is that recruitment of Experienced Dedicated Military Veterans working out for you??? It's not ! maybe you should stop spitting on real military achievements. respect the rank, and not mandate through dictatorial rules your delusional ideals.

60 years ago 90% of CAP members never rose above Warrant Officer, all former Military officers retained their former rank, very few CAP officers were promoted above captain, but to improve membership they created the myth of promotion. You on the other hand believe what??

[SarDragon]

Mostly good information, but ...

I have watched more than a few retired AD officers join CAP and have poor experiences, because CAP isn't quite as military as where they came from. We resemble the AF, but there are differences in structure and procedures that need to be taken into account to be a successful CAP officer. These people couldn't seem to make those adjustments.

Locally, we like people getting advanced promotions to be participating, if not at, at least close to the level of their prospective rank. Settling to be the Chief Coffee Officer isn't going to go very far in getting that advanced promotion to Major.

[RiverAux]

I'm sitting on 25 years of military service, if I was joining CAP and some commander like that wouldn't process the paperwork to match my military grade, I'd find a new squadron. Then I'd probably come back and make that guy's life miserable.

A good demonstration of why CAP shouldn't automatically confer CAP grade to someone based on their experiences in another organization (Frankly, we shouldn't do it at all).  I hope that you were not serious about what I highlighted in your comment, but that fact that you chose to say it indicates that you may not be a good fit for CAP. 

[PHall]

Agree vehemently with everything you said here wingnut55. +1
I'm sitting on 25 years of military service, if I was joining CAP and some commander like that wouldn't process the paperwork to match my military grade, I'd find a new squadron. Then I'd probably come back and make that guy's life miserable.
That said, EVERYONE should complete Level-1 as soon as humanly possible. For a field grade officer, L1 should be an hour of clicking through stuff - it's not difficult materiel.

So because of your personal opinion you refuse to follow CAP REG 35-5, It does not give you the Right to Refuse, or the right to add additional hoops to jump through at your discretion or fancy. For all the readers here, CAP rank is just Honorary to the Air Force, A CAP Officer must complete certain tasks, attend certain functions (such as a Wing convention), and so many years between promotions. Is it possible to be a Lt Col. in CAP with no High School degree, no skills, just good attendance at functions and limited hoops: Yes, I know of several. Ones has spent 30 years as a janitor, no High School. The Air Force thinks so little of our CAP rank that they require CAP to wear rank that is distinctively different from the military. And Military personnel are Instructed that they may chose to NOT Salute a CAP officer, because CAP rank is strictly Honorary, that's why Doctors, Lawyers, School Teachers, CFI's General Radio Telephone Operator license holders are "Given" advanced rank.

Contrast that with the requirements to be a Commissioned Officer in the US Military. Education, Education, Education, proven command ability, designated technical skills, advanced education, advanced military tactics and military organization schools, minimum time in grade, no adverse events (social and Legal), maintain a security clearance as needed, proven leadership and supervisory skills, adherence to regulations and directives, years of deployments away from family, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

So CAP wants to be part of the Military, But you decide what rules will be followed at the whim of a local commander, And I use that term with little respect, because in my over 40 year connection with CAP, most local commanders are chosen, solely because No one wants the job. The common joke is you pick the one who is sleeping.

Finally I would like to add that as a veteran you offend me, I suspect you are not former military. In my little world of CAP much of my flying has been in direct support of the US Military of all branches. Most of the members that I work with are retired Military, do you think a local commander made them do the Michael Jackson moon walk before they pinned on there "used" Major oak leaf ?

So how is that recruitment of Experienced Dedicated Military Veterans working out for you??? It's not ! maybe you should stop spitting on real military achievements. respect the rank, and not mandate through dictatorial rules your delusional ideals.

60 years ago 90% of CAP members never rose above Warrant Officer, all former Military officers retained their former rank, very few CAP officers were promoted above captain, but to improve membership they created the myth of promotion. You on the other hand believe what??

If you showed up at my unit with that attitude I wouldn't even accept your membership application.  Oh and I'll see your 25 years of service and raise you 6 more.

[Holding Pattern]

Well, that escalated quickly...

[Tim Day]

I feel like as a Lt Col who was a prior Navy O-5 I should be held accountable to O-5 standards. Not in terms of basic behavior, which should be standard across all senior members, but in terms of mentoring, taking on staff jobs, and managing projects independently. In the Navy, O-5s are expected to lead and be subject matter experts training junior officers. As an O-3 or below, you're expected to make mistakes and be seeking mentoring.

I'd like to see an expectation chart for senior member grades where people, including veterans, understand that if you come in as an O-5 we want to see you work at the O-5 level, and if you want to relax and be an O-3, then you should be willing to wear it.

I know it's probably impossible given the number of [added this to clarify that I'm not referring to the quality of our current O-5s] current members who are O-5, but as a prior service O-5 this seems intuitive to me: when you seem my grade insignia you should expect me to be a contributor.

At a minimum I'm surprised that there was no requirement to complete the CAP PD in order to make my grade permanent. Since there are no time-in-grade requirements once you've been promoted due to your previous military grade, only the service requirements for your specialty track limit how quickly you can achieve the professional development levels.

It would have seemed fair to me that my CAP grade was temporary until my CAP PD caught up (which it is now). Failure to complete CAP PD within a reasonable window could constitute a reason to revert to whatever permanent grade you should have based on your current PD.

Prior military could be waived from TIG requirements as well. I'm not even sure why we have these given that specialty tracks have service requirements (or at least cadet programs does). It makes sense to me that promotion credit should come from doing something for a certain amount of time versus merely being around.     

[Eclipse]

Nice post, agree with pretty much the whole thing, and especially like this:

In the Navy, O-5s are expected to lead and be subject matter experts training junior officers. As an O-3 or below, you're expected to make mistakes and be seeking mentoring.

I would say it is absolutely reasonable that CAP FGOs be expected to be SMEs, even to the point of demonstrating that somehow before promotion.
Not a "gotcha board" like some cadets try, just a direct conversation about the state of the program the respective member presents himself
as an SME in.  Absent prior affiliation, there is no way a new military O-5 could function as a Wing+ Level CAP SME for at least a year or two, there's simply too many differences and too many cats.

Serving as an SME would also be a legitimate way "around" (for lack of a better term) the idea that CAP promotions should carry the expectation of higher responsibility.  "Currently assigned to Spaatz Composite, however formally assigned as Finance and Logistics mentor to 7 CAP offices, including 2 at Group and one at Wing.  OPRs for mentor role all show exceptional knowledge and willingness to assist...) (etc.).

That's literally what the OE, now Command track is supposed to be for, however sadly it is essentially ignored.

[cobra6987]

It would have seemed fair to me that my CAP grade was temporary until my CAP PD caught up (which it is now). Failure to complete CAP PD within a reasonable window could constitute a reason to revert to whatever permanent grade you should have based on your current PD.
 

I completely agree with this. I have seen both sides of this. On one hand, we have a Captain that was given his rank for being a squadron CC (Thank God this has been reduced to 1st Lt IMO). He has not done any PD past level 1, only has a "none" rating, and he has been in for about 5 1/2 years. On the other side, we have a Captain that got her rank for her CFI. She has been in for just over 2 years and has completed level 3 and has a Master rating. One deserves to keep the rank, the other, not so much.

[USACAP]

This is very reasonable and wise commentary Tim.
Well said.

I feel like as a Lt Col who was a prior Navy O-5 I should be held accountable to O-5 standards. Not in terms of basic behavior, which should be standard across all senior members, but in terms of mentoring, taking on staff jobs, and managing projects independently. In the Navy, O-5s are expected to lead and be subject matter experts training junior officers. As an O-3 or below, you're expected to make mistakes and be seeking mentoring.

I'd like to see an expectation chart for senior member grades where people, including veterans, understand that if you come in as an O-5 we want to see you work at the O-5 level, and if you want to relax and be an O-3, then you should be willing to wear it.

I know it's probably impossible given the number of [added this to clarify that I'm not referring to the quality of our current O-5s] current members who are O-5, but as a prior service O-5 this seems intuitive to me: when you seem my grade insignia you should expect me to be a contributor.

At a minimum I'm surprised that there was no requirement to complete the CAP PD in order to make my grade permanent. Since there are no time-in-grade requirements once you've been promoted due to your previous military grade, only the service requirements for your specialty track limit how quickly you can achieve the professional development levels.

It would have seemed fair to me that my CAP grade was temporary until my CAP PD caught up (which it is now). Failure to complete CAP PD within a reasonable window could constitute a reason to revert to whatever permanent grade you should have based on your current PD.

Prior military could be waived from TIG requirements as well. I'm not even sure why we have these given that specialty tracks have service requirements (or at least cadet programs does). It makes sense to me that promotion credit should come from doing something for a certain amount of time versus merely being around.   

[ZigZag911]

In gratitude and recognition for their service to the country, I'd give any actively participating current, former or retired military member the highest grade for which they are eligible, as soon as they become eligible (I believe that's on completion of Level 1).

However, except for those that have a recent experience of the program (e.g., CAP-USAF active duty or reservists), I strongly feel they should not be asked or expected to take on command or significant leadership posts until they have some experience of the CAP program...1-2 years membership, ideally.

CAP may be part of the Total Force, but it's not part of the "Real Military" -- no pay, retirement points, tangible benefits, UCMJ, Article 15 and so forth. Leading in CAP is related to, but in some ways very different from, miitary leadership. I feel it's in the best interest of both CAP and the military individual who joins that sufficient time be permitted for orientation and familiarization.

[kwe1009]

In gratitude and recognition for their service to the country, I'd give any actively participating current, former or retired military member the highest grade for which they are eligible, as soon as they become eligible (I believe that's on completion of Level 1).

However, except for those that have a recent experience of the program (e.g., CAP-USAF active duty or reservists), I strongly feel they should not be asked or expected to take on command or significant leadership posts until they have some experience of the CAP program...1-2 years membership, ideally.

CAP may be part of the Total Force, but it's not part of the "Real Military" -- no pay, retirement points, tangible benefits, UCMJ, Article 15 and so forth. Leading in CAP is related to, but in some ways very different from, miitary leadership. I feel it's in the best interest of both CAP and the military individual who joins that sufficient time be permitted for orientation and familiarization.

If you aren't willing to give them the responsibility then you shouldn't give them the rank either.  As is often noted here, there are way too many higher ranking CAP members who know little about the program or contribute anything of significance.  I would rather see some sort of accelerated promotion path (less time in grade) for these people than simply promoting them.  The Air Force doesn't even do that for people who come from other services.  I have known many people that came from the Army or Marines and had to give up 1-2 strips to wear Air Force blue. 

Too many former/current military members join, get the promotion to Maj or above and then do nothing for CAP for one reason or another.

[Alaric]

When I was at RSC in 2013, I wrote a white paper that recommended anyone who received advanced rank would be required to take SLS within 12 months of joining and CLC within 24 months. 

[Eclipse]

If you aren't willing to give them the responsibility then you shouldn't give them the rank either.  As is often noted here, there are way too many higher ranking CAP members who know little about the program or contribute anything of significance.

CAP is not a "military appreciation society", it's a service in an of itself.

Those who served received grade and decorations in accordance with their contributions to that service.

CAP should act the same - contribute, receive decorations.  Accept responsibility, receive grade.

Do neither, receive neither.

Nothing given for "free", is appreciated, and double-standards disincentive everyone.