Closing the CAP Heath Services Yahoo Group

[Critical AOA]

David-

You just made me think...

CAP is like the MASH unit you just mentioned!

There are those that are Colonel Potters - those are the ones that keep saying "The CAP is a paramilitary organization -- we have to wear the uniform so the USAF will be proud; we have to interpret the regulations, manuals, etc. as written..."

And there are those like Hawkeye - those are the ones that go "We are not the military; the regulations, manuals, etc. are outdated, they have to be interpreted, etc..."

:angel:

Cannot say I found any Hot Lips, Klingers, Frank Burns, or Radar,  though...



Flyer

Sure there are Klingers!  They are the ones wearing kilts.

[sarmed1]

There may be a fine line between a kilt and a skirt...pretty sure that is a skirt.

I have found most of those personalities in CAP, just not always in the same place at the same time.

mk

[Critical AOA]

There's a difference?

[SarDragon]

There's a difference?

Yes, there is. A kilt uses much more fabric, up to 8 or 9 yards, and there's much more overlap in the pleats.

Klinger is definitely wearing just a skirt.

[Critical AOA]

Maybe so but I wonder if he runs faster and farther in those heels than he does in running shoes or even combat boots for that matter. 

[Private Investigator]

Funny topic. The highlight being the M*A*S*H* personalities in CAP.

I am feeling that HSOs are getting picked on. Well hold on Cochise ... Do you think DDR types get love here? What about IGs, Historians or Supply Officers?

CAP has two main camps Emergency Services and Cadet Programs with Aerospace Education a distant third. That is just the way it is. Mo more, no less   

[Garibaldi]

As one of the guest characters once said, I wouldn't want a whole unit of Captain Pierces. But, sometimes doing the job above and beyond because you care enough is enough to overlook some foibles, but not all. I'm slowly coming to realize that looking good in uniform isn't enough.

[Eclipse]

...looking good in uniform isn't enough.

Nope, but it's where you start.

[Critical AOA]

...looking good in uniform isn't enough.

Nope, but it's where you start.

No, it's not.  Learning a skill that adds value to the mission is where you start.

[Eclipse]

It's really not, and that's one of CAP major failings.

You don't start in the military, school, Boy Scouts, or any job with a "major mission skill" (nor do you join an organization you know nothing about and become a leader the first day, but that's another conversation).

You start with the basics, rules, regulations, dress, culture, expectations, and then likely an aptitude assessment.  In the military this is called "BMT", in life it's 1-8th grade, etc., etc.

CAP's expectation that members can join and somehow figure things out on their own is why we have such a high 1st year churn and low overall retention.

[Critical AOA]

I totally agree with your last statement in regards to many new members having to figure things out on their own and the impact it has on retention.  This is a major issue.  And yes, you have to learn the basic rules of the organization and its expectation of its members.  Still I think selecting a way to contribute and learning a mission skill is one of the first things one must do and is far more important than wearing a uniform or worrying about military C&C. 

For many members, learning their mission skill is usually just an extension of preexisting skills.  If you are a pilot, learning the skills to be a mission pilot is real simple compared to becoming a pilot in the first place.  Taking someone with skills that can be readily utilized by giving them the little bit of extra training required so that they feel productive is perhaps the best retention tool that there is. 

[Eclipse]

For many members, learning their mission skill is usually just an extension of preexisting skills.

Which is further part of the problem - people come into CAP thinking they "know it".  "I was Chuck Yeager's CFI..."  blah, blah, and expect CAP to be just another hamburger run.

They need to learn the basics of the organization before they are of any value, and it's not fair to anyone in the equation to treat the paramilitary aspects as "optional" or "secondary".

They aren't, and if you feel they are, there are plenty of non-military organizations who can make good use of your time, but the last thing we need are more people
who think "I don't read regs, I read FARs..." is a valid response.

[Critical AOA]

Which is further part of the problem - people come into CAP thinking they "know it".  "I was Chuck Yeager's CFI..."  blah, blah, and expect CAP to be just another hamburger run.

I don't recall anyone saying that it is just another hamburger run but if you think the skills that many people bring into CAP are not as important as skills they learn in CAP, you are seriously mistaken.  I wonder how long it would take to turn a non-pilot into a mission pilot.  The skills people bring into the organization are critical.  You need a legal officer, hey let's send Joe down to take the bar exam... we don't need someone who is currently an attorney. Those big heads think they know the law.

They need to learn the basics of the organization before they are of any value, and it's not fair to anyone in the equation to treat the paramilitary aspects as "optional" or "secondary".

But they are secondary, the primary purpose is to perform the mission, not play toy soldier.  None of the paramilitary stuff is really necessary to perform SAR or ES. 

They aren't, and if you feel they are, there are plenty of non-military organizations who can make good use of your time, but the last thing we need are more people who think "I don't read regs, I read FARs..." is a valid response.

Who made that statement?  I didn't, but if I had to make a choice between following contradictory CAP regs and the FARs, I'd follow the FARs.  It is funny how some on here love to slam 39-1 for all of its faults but at the same time want to hold other regs in high esteem. 

But perhaps I will find other organizations to contribute my volunteer time to.  I would love to be part of groups that fly wounded warriors or sick kids or similar type missions.  Heck, I'd even fly a mangy dog on a rescue mission.  Probably more pleasure to be around than some folks in CAP. 

[RiverAux]

I think the fact that someone that was so dedicated to the HSO concept that they started and maintained a discussion group for it is now so incredibly disenchanted does say something important about their experience of the program in CAP [Not that starting a list-serve is very difficult, but it shows more commitment than most].

I'm a little surprised that one of the posters had trouble finding lower level HSOs.  There are pre-made reports available in eservices that can whip that sort of info right out.  May not be available to everyone, but ask the right personnel person and they're available. 

The fact that they're considering a specialty track for a position that is not really allowed to do almost anything is a little concerning. 

For what its worth -- I immediately understood that the italics were a quote.  Would have been easier if they used the board's quote function, but not everyone knows how to use all the functions here.

[Critical AOA]

For what its worth -- I immediately understood that the italics were a quote.  Would have been easier if they used the board's quote function, but not everyone knows how to use all the functions here.

As did I.  Though I do recognize it as not necessarily proper usage of italics and that quotation marks or the quote function would be better alternatives.  Yet, I feel those who quarreled about it were being a bit obtuse to say the least.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Same here, but the response was so...eh...that it had to be pointed out.

[Eclipse]

Who made that statement?  I didn't, but if I had to make a choice between following contradictory CAP regs and the FARs, I'd follow the FARs.  It is funny how some on here love to slam 39-1 for all of its faults but at the same time want to hold other regs in high esteem. 

But perhaps I will find other organizations to contribute my volunteer time to.  I would love to be part of groups that fly wounded warriors or sick kids or similar type missions.  Heck, I'd even fly a mangy dog on a rescue mission.  Probably more pleasure to be around than some folks in CAP.

No one here said it, though I've quoted it before, and it is a prevalent attitude in CAP.

When in uniform, CAP regs win, because they don't conflict, and if someone believes they do, you work it out before engine start. 

What you do for others is not CAP's concern.

[CAPAPRN]

It's really not, and that's one of CAP major failings.

You don't start in the military, school, Boy Scouts, or any job with a "major mission skill" (nor do you join an organization you know nothing about and become a leader the first day, but that's another conversation).

You start with the basics, rules, regulations, dress, culture, expectations, and then likely an aptitude assessment.  In the military this is called "BMT", in life it's 1-8th grade, etc., etc.

CAP's expectation that members can join and somehow figure things out on their own is why we have such a high 1st year churn and low overall retention.

The problem with this line of reasoning is that the military DOES recruit professionals with critical mission skills. Trauma surgeons, ICU nurses, nurse anesthestetists, nuclear power majors, priests- all come in with their mission skills, and there are even special orientation classes just for them because their skills are so important. Why do you think the Air Force brings surgeons in at Major- it's not just the pay- thy do most of that with bonuses. It's because they are far more critical than a basic learning how to turn a wrench.

[Eclipse]

Yes, and then you go to "salutin' school" and most likely a number of tech schools or similar training.  If you walk into the military as a
certified physician, then the military doesn't have to send you to med school, but that doesn't mean they throw you
some ACU's and tell you to "have at it".

You are not working at a civilian hospital on Friday, and in the sandbox on Monday expected to "figure it out on your own".

[sarmed1]

Yes, and then you go to "salutin' school" and most likely a number of tech schools or similar training.  If you walk into the military as a
certified physician, then the military doesn't have to send you to med school, but that doesn't mean they throw you
some ACU's and tell you to "have at it".

You are not working at a civilian hospital on Friday, and in the sandbox on Monday expected to "figure it out on your own".

Actually its not to far off form that.  USAF COT (commissioned officer training) is 5 weeks and there is an Reserve COT, that is 13 days (for hard to recruit medical specialties)  There may be some local level "training" to get you mobility ready, but most of that is online and could be done in a day or two realistically.

So yes you could Sign on the dotted line, end up going to RCOT, come back get some just in time training and be headed of to a deployment rather quickly, ideal? No. Possible? Yes.

Worse, depending on the specialty may be more than a butter bar; When you get into certain physician specialties and time of certification, some of these people can come in as Maj or LTC.  They could show up at the "deployed" location and if medical specific be the "commander"  all with less than a month in the Air Force.

mk