Screening out the poseurs and fakers.

[NIN]

In my time in CAP (1981-2009, with a couple years in there on active duty), I've encountered more than my fair share of people who were either members and purported to be something they were not, or people who attempted to join claiming military service where there actually was none,  or in some cases, pseudo-sneaky-pete adventures and claims of Rambo-esque activities.

In many instances, asking simply for the presentation of a prospective member's DD-214 either causes claims for fantastical service to suddenly disappear, or the prospective member disappears.

But I noticed that there is no requirement to confirm military service for prospective members in CAP regulations.  While someone can claim service on their membership paperwork, absent a DD-214, all you can do is take their word on it, really.   39-1 requires that military awards/badges worn on the CAP uniform be "awarded in writing by competent military authority,"  but there is no real good definition of what constitutes "in writing by competent military authority."

Consequently, the Pocatello Cadet Squadron, having nobody in the unit who has ever been in the military, might take a certificate signed by "Douglas MacArthur" and ginned up on a laser printer that looks legit as "in writing by competent military authority," while the Bunker Hill AFB Composite might say "Oh, you wanna wear your Legion of Merit and Croix de guerre with palm on your CAP uniform? Yeah, no problem. Got your DD-214?  Oh, its not on there 'cuz its classified.. oooooh-kay.."

My point is, as we've seen here on CAP-Talk at least 2 or 3 times, its relatively simple for someone already in the organization to blatantly out and out lie about military service, either by over-blowing their own service ("What did I do in the Navy? Was ah, I was a coo-, er, I mean, I was a SEAL! Yeah, thats the ticket. I was in SEAL Team Two, and I lived in a million dollar mansion on the West Coast with my wife, Moooorgan Fairchild!") or straight up making up some kind of service where there was none. 

If these people are sufficiently lacking in ethics and morals to lie about military service, what _else_ are they doing and why are they doing it?  (While I won't equate a guy who lies about his military service to a child molester, what motives might someone who is involved in a youth organization conflate his or her military exploits actually have?  I'll leave that as an exercise to the reader..)

Since one of the purposes behind CAP-Talk is to help broaden the institutional knowledge of CAP members beyond that of their local unit (ie. to help the Pocatello Cadet Squadron's folks who know nothing of DD-214s and what might constitute "competent military authority" understand these concepts), I ask you: What have you encountered?   

Doctored DD-214s? 

Fake "orders' awarding jump wings for completing 5 civilian parachute jumps at the Podunk Parachute Center? 

Fakers who run and hide at the first mention of "Hey, that's great: show me your documentation?" 

What about people who make some far-fetched sounding claims but produce what appears to be completely legit documentation?

[mclarke]

I know this is not exactly answering your question, however, let me explain my situation. I was Army at Ft Benning. I was medically discharged a couple weeks before completion of my OSUT, however, CAP did require my DD214.

I explaining I did not have a copy, however, they did accept a "certificate of service" from VetRec. Point is, there is always some kind of paper work that can be produced.

As for wearing of medals, my theory is if you DO NOT have a DD214 or paperwork to "PROVE" you earned it, do not wear it at all until you have that paperwork in hand.

[RiverAux]

I think the simplest solution to this issue is to require that any former members of the military present a copy of their dd214 upon application for CAP membership.  Whether or not they're going to use their prior service to obtain rank or for wearing of military awards (neither of which they are actually required to do), this would seem to be a legitimate request. 

[Pylon]

I think the simplest solution to this issue is to require that any former members of the military present a copy of their dd214 upon application for CAP membership.  Whether or not they're going to use their prior service to obtain rank or for wearing of military awards (neither of which they are actually required to do), this would seem to be a legitimate request.

This is how our squadron always approached it with any prior service applicant.  We just asked for a DD-214 copy along with everything else (Form 12, Fingerprint card, etc.) as a matter of routine.  Nobody ever questioned the purpose.  A copy went into their file and was handy when requesting PME equivalency credits or special promotions, etc.

[NIN]

Let me be a tiny bit more specific here guys: nowhere in CAP regs does it say that the member is in any way required to produce a "DD-214" that I could find (ie. 39-2, CAPF 12, CAPM 39-1. I did not look in 50-17 for PME certification).

Part of my point is that CAP should require a DD-214 for anybody claiming military service (and specify this requirement in the regs/forms).  Presently, no such requirement exists, even where we ask for information on military service.

But even more to the point: not everybody in CAP is familiar or conversant with a DD-214 (or in some cases, how to read the darn thing, which is an art forum unto itself) or its sister form, the NGB Form 22.

[DBlair]

I've encountered a variety of examples as you mention in your post, both in and out of CAP. It really is interesting how some people create such a fantasy life to tell in stories-- many of them are quite obvious, but there are others who seem to put together such a grand plan that is almost believable.

In my local area, we have CENTCOM, SOCOM, various intelligence organizations, and many others here, and so there are plenty of actual Secret Squirrel types running around, including in CAP, and I always find it to be interesting when a potential new member claiming some sort of elite service gets caught and called out by one of the real guys, and then they start backpedaling and twisting their story that it's almost impossible not to laugh.

Beyond the Secret Squirrel claims, I've heard of Navy guys claiming to be Marines, enlisted guys claiming to be officers, AF admin guys claiming to be on special ops, the wearing of certain badges or awards of all branches that were actually never earned, local private 'security officers' claiming to be CIA 'anti-terrorism officers' because they wear black or tan BDUs and guard cargo at the port, and so many more stories that it is both sad and exhausting just thinking about it.

One person caught recently was wearing a certain badge that is eligible to be earned by only one branch (not the branch he was in) and when confronted, he eventually back peddled that it was an 'honorary' award because some officer of that branch gave him that pin as a sort of goodwill/friendly gift, so he considered that as having been 'awarded' the badge...and there was actually a former military guy who came to his defense saying that awards for special operations are often done that way-- although none of them have been anywhere near SpecOps in their military careers. *rolling eyes*

I think society will always have its share of wannabe fakers as long as there are people who wish they could have done XYZ and couldn't/didn't for whatever reason, and so I don't think we'll ever see an end to that. I do believe that if someone is to claim military service, then we should have an established policy in place.

The DD-214 seems like a good idea- perhaps as part of the application process of any current/former military joining CAP. Are there other forms that show similar data? I've seen a similar National Guard form that showed all the DD-214 type of info, but I'm not sure if that is given in place of a DD-214 or whether this is just an internal NG form stating the same sort of information.

[Ned]

I was in the Guard for more than a decade before I got my first DD 214.

Sure, I had an ID card and a lot of fancy looking paperwork like diplomas from various schools, but no DD 214 until my first Federal Mobilization.

So, unit commanders should remember that many current reservists will not be able to produce a DD 214.

[RADIOMAN015]

If a senior member states on their application that they are a former or current military member they should be able to provide appropriate documentation.   IF they have specific high level military awards they should be able to provide documentation of such.

I think ANY CAP member who runs around with lots of military ribbons on their uniforms at every single meeting needs to be looked at carefully.  In other words the adult leader (commander) needs to say to Joe the commando, could you bring in your DD form 214 or your actual award citations for us to look at?   Perhaps the best method is for the CAP data base to have a place for military awards to be posted and this would require appropriate documentation.
RM   

[RiverAux]

If a senior member states on their application that they are a former or current military member they should be able to provide appropriate documentation. 

I had forgotten that this was actually on the application.  So, shouldn't be a big deal to add a statement requesting proof.

[DBlair]

If a senior member states on their application that they are a former or current military member they should be able to provide appropriate documentation.   IF they have specific high level military awards they should be able to provide documentation of such.

I think ANY CAP member who runs around with lots of military ribbons on their uniforms at every single meeting needs to be looked at carefully.  In other words the adult leader (commander) needs to say to Joe the commando, could you bring in your DD form 214 or your actual award citations for us to look at?   Perhaps the best method is for the CAP data base to have a place for military awards to be posted and this would require appropriate documentation.
RM   

I agree. I know of one case where RamboCommando was wearing a ton of ribbons and badges on his CAP uniform and was approached for his DD-214. He understood completely and appreciated the attention to detail. It turns out he was completely worthy of all of these awards and certainly a "Wow..." situation for the CAP members and I think everyone respected him that much more since everything (he even pointed out each ribbon and referenced it on the DD-214) was verified. Getting him to wear these awards according to CAP requirements and not Army, now that is an entirely separate battle, but at least we knew he earned everything being worn. lol

If a senior member states on their application that they are a former or current military member they should be able to provide appropriate documentation. 

I had forgotten that this was actually on the application.  So, shouldn't be a big deal to add a statement requesting proof.

I agree, since Section C on the SM application already asks about military service, it shouldn't be difficult to add something in the neighborhood of... "If prior or current Military, please attach copy of DD-214 or NGB-F22 along with CAP application."

[MSG Mac]

If a senior member states on their application that they are a former or current military member they should be able to provide appropriate documentation. 

I had forgotten that this was actually on the application.  So, shouldn't be a big deal to add a statement requesting proof.

I agree, since Section C on the SM application already asks about military service, it shouldn't be difficult to add something in the neighborhood of... "If prior or current Military, please attach copy of DD-214 or NGB-F22 along with CAP application."

Or if they've never been discharged or released from active duty a signed statement from their current unit of assignment, attesting to their grade and what awards they are authorized to wear.

[mclarke]

I've encountered a variety of examples as you mention in your post, both in and out of CAP. It really is interesting how some people create such a fantasy life to tell in stories-- many of them are quite obvious, but there are others who seem to put together such a grand plan that is almost believable.

In my local area, we have CENTCOM, SOCOM, various intelligence organizations, and many others here, and so there are plenty of actual Secret Squirrel types running around, including in CAP, and I always find it to be interesting when a potential new member claiming some sort of elite service gets caught and called out by one of the real guys, and then they start backpedaling and twisting their story that it's almost impossible not to laugh.

Beyond the Secret Squirrel claims, I've heard of Navy guys claiming to be Marines, enlisted guys claiming to be officers, AF admin guys claiming to be on special ops, the wearing of certain badges or awards of all branches that were actually never earned, local private 'security officers' claiming to be CIA 'anti-terrorism officers' because they wear black or tan BDUs and guard cargo at the port, and so many more stories that it is both sad and exhausting just thinking about it.

One person caught recently was wearing a certain badge that is eligible to be earned by only one branch (not the branch he was in) and when confronted, he eventually back peddled that it was an 'honorary' award because some officer of that branch gave him that pin as a sort of goodwill/friendly gift, so he considered that as having been 'awarded' the badge...and there was actually a former military guy who came to his defense saying that awards for special operations are often done that way-- although none of them have been anywhere near SpecOps in their military careers. *rolling eyes*

I think society will always have its share of wannabe fakers as long as there are people who wish they could have done XYZ and couldn't/didn't for whatever reason, and so I don't think we'll ever see an end to that. I do believe that if someone is to claim military service, then we should have an established policy in place.

The DD-214 seems like a good idea- perhaps as part of the application process of any current/former military joining CAP. Are there other forms that show similar data? I've seen a similar National Guard form that showed all the DD-214 type of info, but I'm not sure if that is given in place of a DD-214 or whether this is just an internal NG form stating the same sort of information.

This reminds me of back in 2004 I think it was. I joined CAP as a cadet back then and the Squadron Commander of that unit showed me a "special officer" badge he received while on a SAR mission for the county sheriff. Anyways, he was saying he doesn't get tickets and gets into a lot of missions using this "badge". Was quite entertaining.

[Chief2009]

I agree, since Section C on the SM application already asks about military service, it shouldn't be difficult to add something in the neighborhood of... "If prior or current Military, please attach copy of DD-214 or NGB-F22 along with CAP application."

It makes way too much sense, and therefore will not be done.

DN

[Hawk200]

Perhaps the best method is for the CAP data base to have a place for military awards to be posted and this would require appropriate documentation.

I would love to see this done. I've got a number of military awards, and out of the few times I've worn them I've been questioned once. Since I've submitted my 214 to be included in my records, it wasn't hard to produce the proof. It would be nicer, and a lot easier, if someone could just look it up. Pull up my CAPID and it would show everything I have.

For that matter, decs should be included on E-Services anyway. Make E-Services like the Air Force Portal was, including a nice little graphic on how your awards would be arranged. I know it would take some hard drive space to do, but it can't be so bad that it would be impossible.

It would royally stink for the initial entry, but after that, it wouldn't be so hard. And there's a number of awards that ought to be automatic anyway. Cadet passes all his/her tests and gets promoted, those are easy to show. Red Service ought to be fairly automatic anyway. Unit Citation would be easy to do. Encampment ribbons would be easy with a cross link to some kind of end of encampment roster. CAC, Color Guard Competition, Special Activities, even IACE could be linked across and shown automatic award. Even many badges could be done easily.

[mclarke]

Actually, NHQ I do believe does require a DD214 or equivalent. When I sent mine in, I had put I was prior. They sent it back to the Squadron Commander stating I had to attach a copy of my DD214. I had to call them saying all I had was the Certificate of Service.

[arajca]

Ladies and Gentlemen (or (un)reasonable facsmile thereof),
   may I direct your attention to CAPR 39-2, Section 3, paragraph 3-2 d. line 3.

Suitability. Subject to being waived by the Executive Director or National Commander, any one of the following may be the basis for rejection of membership.
1) Conviction of a felony by any court of record whether federal, state or military.
2) A pattern of arrests and/or convictions including but not limited to sex offenses, child abuse, DUIs, dishonesty and violence.
3) Discharge from the armed services under other than honorable conditions.
4) Falsification of information on the membership application.
5) Previously terminated or non renewed for cause from membership in CAP.
6) Any other unfavorable information brought to the attention of CAP officials at any level.

There is your authorization to require presentation of documentation of military service. It does not matter whether they are trying to wear awards or get advanced grade.

[GroundHawg]

Let me state that after serving in 3 different services and receiving awards from 4, that getting my NGB22 and/or DD214 is a work in progress. I have orders for some, certificates for some, and some that are listed on my NGB22 are not on my 214 (and vice versa). I have submitted 5 DD215s up to today and its still not correct. I wont even try to get the 2 DOT awards I have listed, that would cause a black hole or at the very least a mudslide.

[Major Lord]

I have conducted hundreds of background checks with many people claiming some kind of former military status. If they claimed they were a Seal ( I think this is the number one impersonated position) a Ranger, PJ, etc. there are questions that can be asked and are relatively verifiable. I have never seen anyone fake being a cook or Utensil Detoxification Technologist- the fakers seem to like the most self -aggrandizing lies. Almost anyone serving any time at all will be able to come up with something; Pay info, class photos, etc. even if the DD-214 is not available. For the older guys ( and gals) whose records may have genuinely burned to the ground, some degree of slack needs to be cut before showing them the door. I usually try to verify claims that people were super-tactical Ninjas by contacting their respective Associations; Many of them have played the fake Seal card in the past with varying degrees of success. Try to verify someones membership in La Legion Etrangere: they all used fake names!

Major Lord

[RVT]

I have conducted hundreds of background checks with many people claiming some kind of former military status. If they claimed they were a Seal ( I think this is the number one impersonated position)

As someone who spent 7 years in Army SF I was almost disappointed to discover that at 38% of all fakes reported, Seals were faked more than Green berets by a factor of 2 to 1.

My service doesn't impact CAP at all though - I had jump wings already when I started and the only thing I got to show for that 7 years that goes on a CAP uniform is one arcom and two achievement medals for which I still have the award binders.  I could have gotten those as a cook.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

As someone who spent 7 years in Army SF I was almost disappointed to discover that at 38% of all fakes reported, Seals were faked more than Green berets by a factor of 2 to 1.

My service doesn't impact CAP at all though - I had jump wings already when I started and the only thing I got to show for that 7 years that goes on a CAP uniform is one arcom and two achievement medals for which I still have the award binders.  I could have gotten those as a cook.

That is the thing RVT, those of us who have really served know that for the most part you don't get anything for what you do that a cook couldn't get for what they do. It is an extremely small percentage that actually earns a silver star or HALO wings. That sort of thing just isn't handed out like an ARCOM.

If you can't produce a 214 or orders for your badges/awards, and you claim to have served in the last 10 years then chances are you didn't serve. There is no one who would put the time and effort into the military that wouldn't keep the records, for one thing it is a great item to remember what you have done, and two, YOU CAN"T DO ANYTHING AFTER THE ARMY WITHOUT YOUR DD-214!

[GrantHenninger]

Here is something I've run into: An older gentleman came to my squadron looking to join, claiming to have been a retired USAF SMSgt. He came in with a professional photo of him in his uniform, a copy of his resume and a cover letter saying he wanted to join CAP. He also talked about being a reserve assistance NCO out of the closest Air Force base to my squadron. He had clearly worked with the CAP squadron at that base, because he knew all the people there and some of their policies that he suggested for my squadron.

When I asked for a copy of his DD-214, since he was asking for promotion to 1st Lt based on prior military service, he said that he didn't have one because he was retired and had retirement orders. He did produce these orders and they looked official. I have no reason to believe he was lying and he ended up joining but needing to leave fairly quickly after to take care of some type of unnamed family emergency out of state (my sense was that one of his parents was in ill health.)

My question is: when people retire from the military after 20+ years of service, do they still get a DD-214 or is there such a thing as retirement orders?

[NCRblues]

I have honestly given up on wearing my military items on a CAP uniform.

I have found in my experience, that military items are a major distraction to some cadets and SM's who have not served. My decorations are not amazing at all, but some CAP members MUST know every detail of my service. They have become more of a distraction than they are worth (at least IMHO).

I will still wear them to nice functions, but to simple things i wont put them on the uniform anymore. Don't get me wrong, I'm proud of the little bit i do have, but I don't need to show them off every second in a CAP uniform.

[mclarke]

Here is something I've run into: An older gentleman came to my squadron looking to join, claiming to have been a retired USAF SMSgt. He came in with a professional photo of him in his uniform, a copy of his resume and a cover letter saying he wanted to join CAP. He also talked about being a reserve assistance NCO out of the closest Air Force base to my squadron. He had clearly worked with the CAP squadron at that base, because he knew all the people there and some of their policies that he suggested for my squadron.

When I asked for a copy of his DD-214, since he was asking for promotion to 1st Lt based on prior military service, he said that he didn't have one because he was retired and had retirement orders. He did produce these orders and they looked official. I have no reason to believe he was lying and he ended up joining but needing to leave fairly quickly after to take care of some type of unnamed family emergency out of state (my sense was that one of his parents was in ill health.)

My question is: when people retire from the military after 20+ years of service, do they still get a DD-214 or is there such a thing as retirement orders?

My understanding is no matter what, you should have a DD214. As for retirement orders, I have never heard of those, however, that does not mean they do not exist. Fact is, if he is OUT of the service, he would and should have a DD214.

To play devils advocate, lets say there is no DD214, then he should have been able to provide retirement orders.

Anyways, I am doing the job of recruiting officer in addition to PAO. My policy is to check with the Service they are representing regardless of what they provide me with to confirm. Too many folks going in the service with fake DD214 just to pick up rank and pay now a days.

[a2capt]

He also talked about being a reserve assistance NCO out of the closest Air Force base to my squadron.

.. a call to some folks in Group 3 might be in order, it's not like you're out of bounds of doing your due diligence in following up..

[NIN]

Try to verify someones membership in La Legion Etrangere: they all used fake names!

I believe the term is "pseudonym" in this case.  They get mighty Gallic when you say "fake."

[coudano]

NIN if this results in *another* administrative process that i have to mess with, i'm driving to wherever you are and kicking you through the uprights.

[PHall]

Here is something I've run into: An older gentleman came to my squadron looking to join, claiming to have been a retired USAF SMSgt. He came in with a professional photo of him in his uniform, a copy of his resume and a cover letter saying he wanted to join CAP. He also talked about being a reserve assistance NCO out of the closest Air Force base to my squadron. He had clearly worked with the CAP squadron at that base, because he knew all the people there and some of their policies that he suggested for my squadron.

When I asked for a copy of his DD-214, since he was asking for promotion to 1st Lt based on prior military service, he said that he didn't have one because he was retired and had retirement orders. He did produce these orders and they looked official. I have no reason to believe he was lying and he ended up joining but needing to leave fairly quickly after to take care of some type of unnamed family emergency out of state (my sense was that one of his parents was in ill health.)

My question is: when people retire from the military after 20+ years of service, do they still get a DD-214 or is there such a thing as retirement orders?

Ask to see his Military ID Card Grant. If he's really retired military he will have it.
And it won't be a CAC card, it will be a DD Form 2AF (Ret). Red if he's a "gray area" Reservist who's not 60 yet or Gray if he's drawing his retirement pay.

[NIN]

As someone who spent 7 years in Army SF I was almost disappointed to discover that at 38% of all fakes reported, Seals were faked more than Green berets by a factor of 2 to 1.

Man, how disrespectful of SF. 

Back when I was a unit commander in Michigan, I had a guy come to my squadron wanting to join and just about none of his story stacked up.  He'd supposedly been in CAP in AZ, and he offered up the name of a CAP officer there who could confirm everything. I seem to remember he also claimed to have been AF, but could never produce his DD-214 for one reason or another.

We basically said "We need proof in the form of written documentation, fingerprint cards, etc.."

And he went away.

[NIN]

NIN if this results in *another* administrative process that i have to mess with, i'm driving to wherever you are and kicking you through the uprights.

Cool your jets, Dano, cadets don't need to produce 214s.

My _entire_ point here was to illustrate that the process of confirming a member's service in the military is entirely lacking under the regs in CAP. Yes, it says that a prospective member must have been discharged under honorable conditions. Who confirms that?  There is no requirement for the 214.

There are those of us who know enough to ask for it. But what about the people who don't?

CAPR 39-2 sure does talk about requirements for membership, but it also says that units will conduct a membership board, and we see how many units *really* do that, right?

[RVT]

If you can't produce a 214 or orders for your badges/awards, and you claim to have served in the last 10 years then chances are you didn't serve. There is no one who would put the time and effort into the military that wouldn't keep the records, for one thing it is a great item to remember what you have done, and two, YOU CAN"T DO ANYTHING AFTER THE ARMY WITHOUT YOUR DD-214!

I got out 9 years and 8 months ago.  My last DD214 was from 1983.  I served 17 years after that working for the Army as a DA Civilian and concurrently as a reservist, but I never went on active duty for more than 30 days so no DD214 was ever cut on me again.  All my 214 shows is parachutist wings and the same army training ribbon everybody gets.

[RVT]

I have honestly given up on wearing my military items on a CAP uniform.

In the past year I have worn AF blues *one* time.  I'm usually in aviator whites and what military stuff I do or do not have doesn't even come up.

The military stuff is easy.  Its tracking down my unnumbered Mitchell award from 1975 New Jersey thats proving to be the bother.

[SarDragon]

I have honestly given up on wearing my military items on a CAP uniform.

In the past year I have worn AF blues *one* time.  I'm usually in aviator whites and what military stuff I do or do not have doesn't even come up.

The military stuff is easy.  Its tracking down my unnumbered Mitchell award from 1975 New Jersey thats proving to be the bother.

Well, you might have been in NJWG, but it came from NHQ. As for any available records, good luck. I am fortunate enough to have my entire cadet record in my possession. I also have my Mitchell certificate, although it's a little worse for the wear of 15+ moves since I got it.

[SarDragon]

Five people in my immediate family were in the Navy, and every single one of them got a DD-214 (or equivalent ) upon discharge or retirement. This goes all the way back to the late '30s. I personally have four from my time on AD.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

The thing about requiring that members that have served and discharged honorably is that there is no need for a DD214 being that CAP performs an FBI background check on all prospective members and that will show their discharge status if they have served. Nothing else in a member's service record really maters to CAP. That is until their integrity comes into check with massive stories of valor and wearing badges or awards that weren't earned, then it is up to the home unit and/or group/wing to ask for the member to supply them with a copy of their 214. But I do agree that even though it is not required by CAP, individual units should have their prior service members to supply them with a copy of their DD214 to put into their file so that if they are wearing a badge such as a trident or a medal such as the Distinguished Flying Cross any one questioning it needs not throw any egg on any one's face and just ask the member's home unit's CC/PDO, and the answer isn't just I see him wearing it all the time, it is, yes, I have it on his discharge form here.

[DBlair]

Regarding the DD-214/NGB-F22, if the potential CAP member doesn't have this, can't they request another copy to be sent to them-- I remember there being an option online to do this.

[bosshawk]

A couple of responses from someone who has been there and done that(at least some of it).  One, Ned is correct that reservists and guardsmen may not have a 214 until they retire.  I spent 10 yrs on AD and 20 years in the reserves and my 214 only covers the first 10 yrs.  I have a number of decorations from my reserve status and they are not on my 214, but I have orders to cover them. 

Yes, there are such things as retirement orders: you can't collect retirement unless you have them.  Mine are from Dept of the Army and are dated sometime in June 87.  In fact, in order to get my rank(?) in CAP, I used my retirement orders, because they were easier to get to than my 214 and, in fact, my 214 only carried me as a Major.

Presenting a 214 will not solve the problem that most of you guys are having.  Only if ones service actually ended on the date of the 214 will the entire service period be covered.  There are thousands of us who served after the closing of our 214.

[Pylon]

Regarding the DD-214/NGB-F22, if the potential CAP member doesn't have this, can't they request another copy to be sent to them-- I remember there being an option online to do this.

The veteran themselves can request copies of their records online via eVetRecs.  Anybody can request anyone's (redacted) DD-214 through FOIA and a paper form to the National Archives (may take several months).

[bosshawk]

I forgot to comment on the records deal: Army vets can contact the Army REserve Personnel Center in St Louis, Mo to get copies of records, if they aren't among the thousands that went up in flames in the big fire  a bunch of years ago.  I assume that other services have similar organizations.

Warning: the copies come VERY slowly.

[COL Land]

In the past ten years, I have encountered:

  *  Special Forces Colonel, as well as a CAP officer, in California, who attended a USAC (then ACA) orientation in uniform.  He was a fake, with no military service, or very limited...I don't recall.

  *  Military Police Colonel in Florida, who attended several USAC (then ACA) drills in uniform.  He was actually a former SSG.  "Eh...E6, O6...what's the difference?!?"   He was running a school-based Cadet program and simply decided one day that he was a colonel.  Fake.  Incidentally, he submitted a DD-214...oddly, there were two difference typefaces on the form and evidence of the use of a LOT of white-out.  Ugh...a liar AND stupid...just what my Cadets need.

  *  Navy Lieutenant (Jr. Grade) (Limited Duty Officer) working with the Sea Cadets, who had business cards indicating that he was a Public Affairs Officer at Great Lakes.  Stated he was a former PO1, USN, serving in submarines.  I noticed his ribbons were WAY out of order and started asking questions.   He was actually a former Quartermaster Seaman Apprentice who was given an OTH discharge years prior.  Amazingly, he had a telephone line at Great Lakes and regularly checked out vans to be used to transport Cadets.  .  Fake.

  *  Navy Master Chief Hospital Corpsman, wearing the Navy Cross and several other combat-related awards, while stating he had served with the Fleet Marine Force.  He was indeed a Master Chief, but was just finishing "A" school during the final days of Vietnam.  The rank was real, most of the awards were fake.  We fired him.  He was a DA civilian...they did nothing.   

  *  Marine Corps Reserve Sergeant with Navy Achievement Medal, Combat Action Ribbon and several other awards.  In actuality, he had never deployed.  Awards were fake.  The Marine Corps Reserve separated him.  Sad, as he was well on his way to the Enlisted Commissioning Program.

  *  State Guard Colonel, claimed to be a former Army Major.   When required to submit a full application package, to include DD-214 and SF-180, Request Pertaining to Military Records, he back-peddled VERY quickly, withdrawing his application.  Probably another fake.  Don't know for sure, as we only investigate applicants.

  *  Sea Cadet Lt. Commander, wearing the "Budweiser" of the SEALs.   Well, he did serve "with" the SEALs as a "Boat Guy," but was NOT an actual SEAL.   The Combat Action Ribbon was fake too.   He got booted from the Sea Cadets after nearly 30 years of total service as a Cadet and NSCC officer. 

  *  Military School TAC officer (school rank of MAJ), a retired PO1, USN, claimed to have been a Journalist in the Navy.  "Great!  So, was I."  Well, the location he gave for Journalist "A" School was simply wrong.   The most basic questions found on a E4 test were well beyond him...he had no clue.   Unfortunately, he snowed a military school for several years.   He never submitted his application to USAC after the initial interview.

  *  Civil Air Patrol 1st Lt, met in Pennsylvania several years ago.  Claimed to be an 0311 Sergeant of Marines.   Ten minutes and a dozen questions later, it's crystal clear that he's not.   Intel passed to CAP.  I don't think any action was ever taken, as I've seen his name since as a Captain.   

The list could go on and on.   Sadly, I've had more fake "Colonels" than anything else, followed by claims of having been a SEAL.   I've busted several for wearing jump wings, Combat Infantry Badge, Navy Enlisted Surface Warfare device and much more. 

USAC requires the DD-214, DD-215 and/or the NGB-22.  More importantly, since these forms can be fabricated, we require a SF-180 to be signed, with the documents sent DIRECTLY to HQ, USAC.  This ensures that we are getting the documents directly from DoD, rather than from the applicant.  Very often this form isn't sent with the application, as required.  Amazingly, several applicants withdraw their package when we sent them a Notification of Deficiency letter stating that their application is held in abeyance until we have proof of service from DoD.   I'm sure we have filtered several fakers through our admittedly cumbersome application process.

We've had some folks who have applied and learned later in life that the awards they had worn for years were never properly documented.   We do two things (a) have them submit a request for a correction to their military records, and (b) have them sign a Memorandum for the Record stating that they earned XX award(s) and the circumstances behind the presentation (in the field, at sea, in combat, etc.).  This boils down to honor...they state in writing, on their honor, that they earned a certain award (usually minor awards, like marksmanship quals or an overseas service ribbon), we will take them at their word, as administrative oversight has happened to many of us.  However, if there is later a situation which proves that they had lied about their awards, then we are merciless about putting them out of the door. 

Respectfully,

[AirDX]

I think the simplest solution to this issue is to require that any former members of the military present a copy of their dd214 upon application for CAP membership.  Whether or not they're going to use their prior service to obtain rank or for wearing of military awards (neither of which they are actually required to do), this would seem to be a legitimate request.

For what purpose?  Yes, I've read this whole thread.... and if someone wants to use their service to gain advanced rank, or wear military badges or awards, that's fine, make them prove it somehow.  But otherwise, why automatically ask for it?  It's one more item of personal information sitting in some unguarded CAP file cabinet.

Why not ask for a high school diploma, or your SAT scores, or a note from your mother?

I have not (and will not) submitted a DD-214 because nothing on it is relevant to CAP.  I do not wear the AF style uniform, thus my couple of ribbons will never be seen.  I have no badges except the Expert Rifle badge, and I can't wear that anywhere in CAP.  I did not claim advanced rank or training equivalents. 

The FBI check is good enough for what CAP needs as far as identity and background checks.  Unless someone is claiming some status relevant to CAP, then I think the less intrusive we are the better.

[GroundHawg]

Btw, does anyone know if they put AF occupational badges on a DD214? Mine is not.

[JC004]

I have honestly given up on wearing my military items on a CAP uniform.

I have found in my experience, that military items are a major distraction to some cadets and SM's who have not served. My decorations are not amazing at all, but some CAP members MUST know every detail of my service. They have become more of a distraction than they are worth (at least IMHO).

I will still wear them to nice functions, but to simple things i wont put them on the uniform anymore. Don't get me wrong, I'm proud of the little bit i do have, but I don't need to show them off every second in a CAP uniform.

That's one reason that I stopped wearing CAP ribbons (other than not caring).  I have a bunch and almost as many attachments as ribbons, but does that reflect on what I would do in the present time?

People cared a lot about my ribbons because, in part, a 1st Lt had so many.  Most are lowly ribbons, but all were worn properly with a 2a for each one and each and every attachment.  The biggest hassle that I got, especially as a low-ranking cadet years ago, was the Lifesaving ribbon.  People assumed that I was some newer cadet who didn't know what I was wearing.  Either that or they didn't know what it was.  Even our great Ned, who has extensive CAP experience, asked me what the Spaatz-like ribbon with the star was.  I went late to my basic encampment (due to personal circumstances) and was a C/CMSgt with a lot of ribbons.  Other cadets were OBSESSED with them.  After the encampment, the home squadron leadership of my bunkmate complained that the kid was still obsessed with them and was devoting much time to attempting to acquire as many ribbons as I had.

Later, at SM-only activities, I began wearing the polo.  At activities with cadets, I wore blues with a GBD badge and CP badge.  I sometimes wore a badge like Comm, ES, or whatever if it was appropriate to the activity.  That was it.  I did the same basic thing with BDUs - I nametape, branch tape, grade insignia, flag patch, GBD badge.  DONE.  I don't even own many of the badges that I was authorized over time (specialty track especially - personnel, admin, public affairs, IT, Recruiting and Retention, DDR - I don't own any of those).

[manfredvonrichthofen]

You shouldn't not wear them just because you don't care. Wear what you have earned and be proud of it. The only thing is be sure you are only wearing what you have earned and nothing you haven't really the issue of a person wearing something they have not earned does not come up very often. I have a book that has all of my award certificates in it along with my DD214 and orders for my CIB and everything just in case someone were to challenge me being a 2d Lt with 15 ribbons and a GTM2 badge. I do admit it does look a bit off at first glance. Just be sure you have all the documentation for your awards and there is no problem. Be proud of what you have done. Yes there is a bit of awesomeness to the silent professional, but that doesn't mean you can't wear your awards proudly, but let your uniform talk for you. There is morbid wrong with wearing everything you have.

[JC004]

I got annoyed with the whole thing early on as a cadet NCO because of the Lifesaving ribbon.  That partly lead me not to care about any of them.  I was at a wing conference as that young cadet NCO with a ton of people who didn't know me.  I was wearing the Lifesaving ribbon for the first time and (I had just picked it up at the conference, actually.  I was previously given the award but hadn't got the ribbon).  Tons of people jumped on me because I had like 4 ribbons and that one.  I was annoyed and embarrassed.  Eventually Col Larry Trick confirmed with our own FW that he had authorized the thing and fought people off for me but I found it more annoying than it was worth and sort of developed the beginning of an attitude of having people judge me by what I contribute.  That conference blew.  Cadets were locked away, restricted to our own activity when many of us wanted to learn stuff like ES and all rather than play with paper airplanes.  I suspect that's why I ended up annoyed with ribbons AND wing conferences.

[lordmonar]

Let me be a tiny bit more specific here guys: nowhere in CAP regs does it say that the member is in any way required to produce a "DD-214" that I could find (ie. 39-2, CAPF 12, CAPM 39-1. I did not look in 50-17 for PME certification).

Part of my point is that CAP should require a DD-214 for anybody claiming military service (and specify this requirement in the regs/forms).  Presently, no such requirement exists, even where we ask for information on military service.

But even more to the point: not everybody in CAP is familiar or conversant with a DD-214 (or in some cases, how to read the darn thing, which is an art forum unto itself) or its sister form, the NGB Form 22.

Sure....it would clear up a bunch of things....but do we really need a reguation?  It is kind of implied.  As for PME certification....National wants to see a copy of the PME Certfication before they will grand equivanacy for CAP PME.  Again this is not in the regulations per say....but I can't see any one bringing up an IG complaint against a commander who wanted a DD-214 or promotion orders before he signed off a CAPF2 for an advanced promotion.

[lordmonar]

Why not ask for a high school diploma, or your SAT scores, or a note from your mother?

Well we should be seeing the high school diploma and/or GED certficate if they want to joing CAP now that you mention it.

I have not (and will not) submitted a DD-214 because nothing on it is relevant to CAP.  I do not wear the AF style uniform, thus my couple of ribbons will never be seen.  I have no badges except the Expert Rifle badge, and I can't wear that anywhere in CAP.  I did not claim advanced rank or training equivalents. 

The FBI check is good enough for what CAP needs as far as identity and background checks.  Unless someone is claiming some status relevant to CAP, then I think the less intrusive we are the better.

The FBI check only looks for convictions.....and only certain conviction at that.  I don't really see a problem with requiring a DD-214 from anyone who is claiming to be ex-military on the CAPF 12.  If they are current military we should be asking for their current promotion order and their current decoration sheet.

As for informaiton in unguarded CAP files......if you want to play....then you have to answer truthfully and provide all information.  If you don't....then thanks for playing.

[jgdeleon31]

You guys want to talk about fakers, check this guy out.

http://www.vawatchdog.org/10/nf10/nfmar10/nf031310-2.htm

Every time I see something like that I feel like I've been slap in the face, no respect at all for true veterans. I also remember hearing about a guy who pretended to be a Marine in Florida and ended up joining the Army reserve as a E-6 because of his fake dd-214, the guy never went to bootcamp or anything and there he was in a Reserve unit as an NCO.


found the article, http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/fake-marine-tricks-his-way-into-officer-role-in-us-army/blog-327471/

I can only imagine how many pretenders we got in cap.

[commando1]

Kind of off topic: I was at a leadership camp last summer. I happened to have a t-shirt that said "Search and Rescue" in my bag. One guy, probably 16, comes up to me and starts talking about when he was in this really cool program called Civil Air Patrol.  He proceeds to talk about all of the "operations" they went on for the USAF. He talked about the time he had to rappel off a cliff to save a injured hiker, when he parachuted out of a C-137 and the time he rescued a downed fighter pilot on a USAF base. Then we talked about his rank, Cadet General.  All in all he made a absolute fool out of himself before we got around to my CAP service. Apparently this kid had only had a friend who had invited him to visit a unit a few times and had sat through a ES class. Posing is obviously not limited to active military service.

[Major Lord]

Try to verify someones membership in La Legion Etrangere: they all used fake names!

I believe the term is "pseudonym" in this case.  They get mighty Gallic when you say "fake."

Well, even though many members of the Legion joined primarily for the purpose of establishing a new identity, maybe "fake" was too harsh ( You can't afford to piss these guys off.....) Lets revise that to "Nomme de Guerre". ( The best thing about the Foreign Legion is how few French people you will find there!)

Major Lord

[NCRblues]

Btw, does anyone know if they put AF occupational badges on a DD214? Mine is not.

On your 214 or 215 it should list your AFSC's. The actual completion and holding of those AFSC's is what authorizes AF occupational badges.

( I am not really happy with the VA/DoD at the moment because i am on my 5th 215.... it comes back wrong every time... )

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Btw, does anyone know if they put AF occupational badges on a DD214? Mine is not.

On your 214 or 215 it should list your AFSC's. The actual completion and holding of those AFSC's is what authorizes AF occupational badges.

( I am not really happy with the VA/DoD at the moment because i am on my 5th 215.... it comes back wrong every time... )

When I got out of the Army I took about ten minutes at some office to ensure that my DD214 was correct. Everything on it is correct, I will never have to worry about it being wrong. If you take it to the VFW they will help you ensure that it is correct.

[RiverAux]

For what purpose?  Yes, I've read this whole thread.... and if someone wants to use their service to gain advanced rank, or wear military badges or awards, that's fine, make them prove it somehow.

Well, since we require them to put their military service on the application it only makes sense to ask for proof.  And yes, we should be asking for proof of high school graduation as well.  Though to be honest it never occurred to me to do so when I was in a position to do so. 

[NCRblues]

Btw, does anyone know if they put AF occupational badges on a DD214? Mine is not.

On your 214 or 215 it should list your AFSC's. The actual completion and holding of those AFSC's is what authorizes AF occupational badges.

( I am not really happy with the VA/DoD at the moment because i am on my 5th 215.... it comes back wrong every time... )

When I got out of the Army I took about ten minutes at some office to ensure that my DD214 was correct. Everything on it is correct, I will never have to worry about it being wrong. If you take it to the VFW they will help you ensure that it is correct.

Hm, never thought of the VFW....ill make some phone calls... thanks

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Btw, does anyone know if they put AF occupational badges on a DD214? Mine is not.

On your 214 or 215 it should list your AFSC's. The actual completion and holding of those AFSC's is what authorizes AF occupational badges.

( I am not really happy with the VA/DoD at the moment because i am on my 5th 215.... it comes back wrong every time... )

When I got out of the Army I took about ten minutes at some office to ensure that my DD214 was correct. Everything on it is correct, I will never have to worry about it being wrong. If you take it to the VFW they will help you ensure that it is correct.

Hm, never thought of the VFW....ill make some phone calls... thanks

They are an amazing help! I had them submit some paperwork for me when I was trying to get back into the military. Alas, even they couldn't help the Army or Air Force to take me despite my disabilities.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

You know, thinking about it the VFW is a great place to go if you are trying to figure out a person who seems shady about their service record. The VFW's local post can just make a phone call to a post local to the one of the person's claim and then they can figure it all out for sure in a matter of a day. So say CAP prospective member Joe Joe Idiot wants to join your squadron, and he has awesome stories of jumping out of C-130 into South Korea during Vietnam and killed 105 Mujaheddin with his Barrett .50 while assigned to the 101st ABN at Campbell Ky, just call your local VFW post and let  them know about this person's wild story and that they can't produce a DD-214 for whatever reason. The VFW post will call the VFW post located nearest to Ft Campbell Ky and give them the name and unit and they can actually walk right into the post and ask for the member's record.

[ol'fido]

Try to verify someones membership in La Legion Etrangere: they all used fake names!

I believe the term is "pseudonym" in this case.  They get mighty Gallic when you say "fake."

Well, even though many members of the Legion joined primarily for the purpose of establishing a new identity, maybe "fake" was too harsh ( You can't afford to piss these guys off.....) Lets revise that to "Nomme de Guerre". ( The best thing about the Foreign Legion is how few French people you will find there!)

Major Lord

Actually, these days you can have all your records redone in your own name when you outprocess from the Legion and become an "Ancien Legionairre".  Also, from what I've read you can actually join under your own name these days. BTW I am not claiming to have served in the Legion I just read a lot of normally useless information.

I was recently at an activity in another wing. A gentleman showed up wearing the corporate blue/white uniform. When he first showed up he had the AF shoulder marks on although somebody quickly found him some gray ones. He had a bunch of medals on his top medals were the Army Good Conduct and MSM. A couple of rows down he had a DSM. And just a plethora of randomly selected ribbons and unit awards. Being from another wing I asked someone about him. They said "He's a big contributor to the wing. We don't really talk to him or about him". OK, whatever.

[Hawk200]

Btw, does anyone know if they put AF occupational badges on a DD214? Mine is not.

It was on mine. When I finished my tour in Iraq, and it came to our outprocessing, they put everything on my old ones on my new one (Which resulted in a 214 that's two pages now). I was kinda surprised that they would include decs on it that I can't even wear on an Army uniform. But, my Air Force maintenance badge was listed, and it was on the little dropdown menu for the fill-in. I guess they would have to include everything the military has ever awarded you on the 214, but it surprised me.

You know, thinking about it the VFW is a great place to go if you are trying to figure out a person who seems shady about their service record. The VFW's local post can just make a phone call to a post local to the one of the person's claim and then they can figure it all out for sure in a matter of a day. So say CAP prospective member Joe Joe Idiot wants to join your squadron, and he has awesome stories of jumping out of C-130 into South Korea during Vietnam and killed 105 Mujaheddin with his Barrett .50 while assigned to the 101st ABN at Campbell Ky, just call your local VFW post and let  them know about this person's wild story and that they can't produce a DD-214 for whatever reason. The VFW post will call the VFW post located nearest to Ft Campbell Ky and give them the name and unit and they can actually walk right into the post and ask for the member's record.

Now that's handy info. Might make use of that if I have any problem children.

[lordmonar]

you know...."bring in your DD-214" is a legal order.

If you have problem children.....just have them cough up a 214 or you 2b them....it is what we did to one of our posers.

[Eclipse]

you know...."bring in your DD-214" is a legal order.

If you have problem children.....just have them cough up a 214 or you 2b them....it is what we did to one of our posers.

Pretty simple and straightforward.  Also, regardless of the reason why, if you can't substantiate it, in advance, you don't wear it.
One thing I recommend to new commanders is to do a top-down survey of everything, including member files and ribbon racks.
In most cases, the simple threat of being held our as a fake is enough to get people to make adjustments on their own, and those
that don't or won't are probably your problem children.

This is one more simple, but potentially uncomfortable, baseline conversation that should be had as a matter of course, but is avoided
until it is too big an issue to ignore.

[NCRblues]

I also believe we should approach this with a little bit of caution as well. I am a big supporter of screening 214's for awards, but i am anti SMWOG Joe blow coming up to me at wing conference and demanding to see my 214 because I have on my national defense ribbon.

I think we need to make it clear that commanders/IG's/membership boards, get to ask for the paperwork....not 2nd Lt bagOnuts who happens to be in the same room as you once a year. Just saying, i think we might lose people if their integrity is called into question at every single CAP event. Prove it to your chain of command and move on, update when need be.

[BillB]

NCRBlues ..  You at least show the National Defense ribbon on your 214. Mine doesn't. mainly because I was discharged prior to the award being defined. I qualifed, and USAF sent me the medal and ribbon. But several awards I did get prior to dischareg are not on the 214, so normally i don't wear them (aircrew wings, good conduct and army good conduct. ) I have paerwork on all but as I said they are not on the DD214.

[NCRblues]

NCRBlues ..  You at least show the National Defense ribbon on your 214. Mine doesn't. mainly because I was discharged prior to the award being defined. I qualifed, and USAF sent me the medal and ribbon. But several awards I did get prior to dischareg are not on the 214, so normally i don't wear them (aircrew wings, good conduct and army good conduct. ) I have paerwork on all but as I said they are not on the DD214.

Well, when i got my 214 after outprocessing, it showed ZERO awards...nothing...notta....

So i went back to the base i did TAPS at, and they didn't even blink an eye. They said it happens all the time. I got my first 215 after that.... it had on my overseas short tour ribbon and that was all....

So 3 trips and many phone calls later, i have my good conduct, overseas short, expert marksmen with bronze star, national defence, GWOT... Missing several still, but its a work in progress...have orders or certificates for everyone...but still...i want a proper 214/215

[RVT]

I also believe we should approach this with a little bit of caution as well. I am a big supporter of screening 214's for awards, but i am anti SMWOG Joe blow coming up to me at wing conference and demanding to see my 214 because I have on my national defense ribbon.

I haven't been to a CAP wing conference yet, but I would really hope that stuff like that doesn't happen.

The kind of person who does that isn't going to take "I'm not taking it off and I'm not showing you proof" as an answer either, and it will only go down hill from there.

[AirDX]

As for informaiton in unguarded CAP files......if you want to play....then you have to answer truthfully and provide all information.  If you don't....then thanks for playing.

Don't get attitudinal.  I have no problem providing info for a legitimate purpose.  But there are any number of CAP units around where I could walk in the door in a uniform, walk to the file cabinet, and grab a double fistful of of member's files and walk on out the door without question.  Everything you need for identity theft (and more).  If you start adding unnecessary PII like -214s and whatever else the nazis here are dreaming about, it's all the better.

[AirDX]

And yes, we should be asking for proof of high school graduation as well.  Though to be honest it never occurred to me to do so when I was in a position to do so.

To what possible end?  I joined CAP two years ago at the age of 53, and what possible relevance does high school have for me?

I'd have a hard time turning up a HS diploma anyway.  I think I still have it.

[Eclipse]

And yes, we should be asking for proof of high school graduation as well.  Though to be honest it never occurred to me to do so when I was in a position to do so.

To what possible end?  I joined CAP two years ago at the age of 53, and what possible relevance does high school have for me?

A high school diploma is a requirement to be appointed to CAP Officer grades.

I also believe we should approach this with a little bit of caution as well. I am a big supporter of screening 214's for awards, but i am anti SMWOG Joe blow coming up to me at wing conference and demanding to see my 214 because I have on my national defense ribbon.

I think we need to make it clear that commanders/IG's/membership boards, get to ask for the paperwork....not 2nd Lt bagOnuts who happens to be in the same room as you once a year. Just saying, i think we might lose people if their integrity is called into question at every single CAP event. Prove it to your chain of command and move on, update when need be.

I agree 100%.

When I see a uniform issue, or an unusual decoration, I address it discreetly and professionally - sometimes I will send a note to the person's commander instead of making a issue of it in public, but these members who feel they have the random right to walk up to other members with their finger stuck out saying "you can't wear that", or "prove to me you've earned that", need to be disciplined themselves. It's one thing when a commander addresses one of his subordinates, but fully another when "some guy" is dressing down "some other guy" in public right after shaking hands and saying "hello".

With at least 7 uniformed services in the mix, plus our own ambiguous, self-conflicting regulations, not to mention the unevenness of how decs are awarded both in the military and in CAP, there's a whole lot of room between "misunderstanding / difficult to validate" & "Stolen Valor", not to mention
that few people quietly slip in a fake Training Ribbon or Good Conduct Medal, instead opting for stuff that stands out to anyone like the Medal of Honor or the ever present Trident.

I'd double that for cadets, who in most cases are acting on the misunderstanding of their commander(s), and / or have unusual situations as they do Guard or Reserve service and start having "weird" ribbons growing in their racks.

In the end though, if we're going to continue to allow military decorations and badges to be worn, then they should be fully substantiated, and if you
can't back it up, leave it in the shadow box.  Anything less is a dereliction of duty by the commander allowing it to be worn.

[Jill]

A high school diploma is a requirement to be appointed to CAP Officer grades.

Point out the regs for that.

[Eclipse]

A high school diploma is a requirement to be appointed to CAP Officer grades.

Point out the regs for that.

CAPR 35-5 1-6b

1-6. Minimum Eligibility Requirements.   To qualify for initial appointment to CAP officer
grade, senior members must meet the following minimum requirements:

a. Be at least 21 years of age.

b. Be a high school graduate (or educational equivalent).

c. Complete Level I of the Senior Member Professional Development Program (see
CAPR 50-17).  NOTE:  Former members who have completed Level I training and have less
than a 2 year membership break and former cadets who have earned the General Billy Mitchell
Award,  or higher, and have less than a 2 year membership break are exempt from  the
Foundations portion of Level I training.

d. Be recommended for promotion by the unit commander.

[davidsinn]

A high school diploma is a requirement to be appointed to CAP Officer grades.

Point out the regs for that.

R35-5

2-1. Eligibility Requirements.
a. General Requirements. To be considered for this type promotion, the member must:
(1) Be at least 21 years of age.
(2) Be a high school graduate (or educational equivalent).
(3) Complete Level I of the Senior Member Professional Development Program.
(4) Be performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended.
(5) Be recommended by immediate superior and unit commander.

[SarDragon]

Guess that says it all, twice.

[Eclipse]

Guess that says it all, twice.

Heh, Sinn and I were tripping over each other to get the first response.  Good thing it was a double door or someone might have gotten hurt!

[davidsinn]

Guess that says it all, twice.

Heh, Sinn and I were tripping over each other to get the first response.  Good thing it was a double door or someone might have gotten hurt!

Yeah me  You're called Eclipse for a reason....


Funny thing is we quoted the same reg but different chapters.

[SarDragon]

Guess that says it all, twice.

Heh, Sinn and I were tripping over each other to get the first response.  Good thing it was a double door or someone might have gotten hurt!

Yeah me  You're called Eclipse for a reason....


Funny thing is we quoted the same reg but different chapters.

Bob's trumps yours, though. His comes first in the pub, and has a greater scope.

[davidsinn]

Guess that says it all, twice.

Heh, Sinn and I were tripping over each other to get the first response.  Good thing it was a double door or someone might have gotten hurt!

Yeah me  You're called Eclipse for a reason....


Funny thing is we quoted the same reg but different chapters.

Bob's trumps yours, though. His comes first in the pub, and has a greater scope.

True. Mine was specifically for 2d Lt.

[Hawk200]

But several awards I did get prior to dischareg are not on the 214, so normally i don't wear them (aircrew wings, good conduct and army good conduct. ) I have paerwork on all but as I said they are not on the DD214.

Doesn't have to be on the 214, you just need some kind of valid paperwork to show it's authorized for you. I joined CAP before I had even reenlisted. My commander asked for a RIP on my decs, so I got one. She added it, everything was good.

A DD214 isn't the only way to prove that you have something. If you want to wear your wings, GC, and AGC, just bring in the paperwork showing it.

[Stonewall]

As someone who spent 7 years in Army SF I was almost disappointed to discover that at 38% of all fakes reported, Seals were faked more than Green berets by a factor of 2 to 1.

Meh, I changed it.  Was going to post a pic of a CAP poseur who said he was a SEAL, but it's old news.

Yeah, people pose as SEALs a lot more often than other special operations types.

[lordmonar]

Seals had a more receint movie.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I have usually found that the more lofty the claim for the medal/rank/other appurtenance, and the more "look at me" hot gas expended in such a claim, the higher the potential Bravo Sierra content.

It's not just us...this RAAF Cadet Wing Commander (equivalent to Lieutenant Colonel in CAP) is wearing a bunch o'gongs that he isn't entitled to, many of which are American, not Australian/Commonwealth.  He also isn't entitled to those Aussie pilot wings.

http://www.anzmi.net/bain/bainallawards.jpg

[NIN]

If you start adding unnecessary PII like -214s and whatever else the nazis here are dreaming about, it's all the better.

Wow. I'm glad you cleared that up. Per Godwin's Law, this discussion is now over.