Do cadets in ROTC or Active Duty, Reserves, or Guard outrank all cadets?

[CapnSuper]

Here's a new one for me, I haven't found anything that directly addresses it so I'll try here.  If there is a reg for it please cite as it'll help me explain it.

Situation:
A cadet joins ROTC (not JROTC, but college level ROTC) or the reserves, guard, or even goes active duty, then continues  to attend the squadron with the understanding that with their new rank (regardless of what it is) they now outrank all the other cadets because *all* members (any grade) of the "real" armed services out-rank any cadet.  In fact the cadet comes to the meeting in their service uniform, not a CAP uniform, and expects all other cadets, regardless of cadet rank, to submit to their new rank, and the cadets gladly do so.

This doesn't make sense to me, seems like a cadet myth, and perhaps done because it has been done in the past.  I would think that cadet-to-cadet rank / seniority is solely based on cadet grade, not grade from any other organization (real military, bowling league, airsoft club, etc.)

And yet I've seen many, many cadets insist that this is the case, which is why they continue to view this cadet as superior in rank to all other cadets.

So, anyone else heard/know of this?  Is this actually done, either by reg or custom?

[cap235629]

Once a cadet enlists, said cadet becomes a senior member

[Ned]

It is, of course, a myth.

Cadets in CAP rank according to their CAP grade and rank.

Period.

Anyone claiming superior grade or rank because of circumstances outside of CAP has the burden of producing a CAP regulation that supports their position.

I have been a CAP cadet, a police cadet, and an ROTC cadet.  The programs are distinctly different and unrelated to each other.

And CAP cadets may or may not have to become senior members upon enlistment.  It depends on their active duty status.  There are many cadets serving happily in the Reserves or Guard until they go on active duty or turn 21.

Ned Lee
NHQ Cadet Programs Guy

[Eclipse]

they now outrank all the other cadets because *all* members (any grade) of the "real" armed services out-rank any cadet.

That's not remotely how it works. 

There is zero command relationship between a member of another service and a CAP member, cadet or otherwise.  Air Force officers do not "outrank" CAP members, period. (unless a CAP member is officially assigned to work for the respective officer).

Courtesies are extended based on grade, with the only caveat that a CAP member must salute a military officer of superior grade, while for the military officer (or enlisted) it is optional to salute a CAP member. (No, a CAP major does not salute an Air Force 2d Lt. or Chief because somehow their grade is more "real").

In fact the cadet comes to the meeting in their service uniform, not a CAP uniform, and expects all other cadets, regardless of cadet rank, to submit to their new rank, and the cadets gladly do so.

Then that cadet is sent home the first time, with a correction of their understanding, and disciplined if it happens again.  CAP service requires a CAP uniform.  A uniform from some other service, military or otherwise does not count as a "uniform" in the CAP sense.

And yet I've seen many, many cadets insist that this is the case,

I've seen cadets insist a lot of things, that's why there are seniors in the program.

[CapnSuper]

As I expected.  It's amazing how enduring a myth can be, even one as seemingly non-sensical as this, and this extends over 5 years.  Well, good to know.
Thanks!

[ParaTweeT]

I agree with that totaly but with an exception. Someone who has become Active Duty/Reserves (i.e. Officer or NCO) would when in their duty uniform be addressed accordingly. However when in their CAP Uniform they should wear the Grade they have earned and be addressed accordingly. I actually have been through this when we had an Active Duty Enlisted NCO who was a Capt. in CAP. When he didn't have time to change he would have to show up in his Active Duty Uniform so sometimes we would trip up.

Your situation however is bringing in ROTC and the answer there is the same as if they were JROTC. Even though the programs are written together for textbooks the programs are seperate to a point. You give them the courtesy of the Rank as long as you know what it is (hey we are not perfect and the insignia from branches and even Schools can become confusing to anyone). Once again they get addressed accordingly to the uniform and insignia they are wearing.

The fact is they should ALWAYS be in CAP Uniform when attending/participating as a CAP Member. But reality is we all know that sometimes they will have to get there in what they are wearing with no time to change. Again treat them accordingly to the uniform but never forget if they are the Squadron Commander you still have to be appropriate in your communications...

Long Story Short is you will find that the CAP uniform IS the uniform to be worn to CAP Events and is what is recognized...

[davidsinn]

I'd love to know how this one spreads. I once had a SM Lt. pop off a salute to a seaman recruit. Poor kid didn't what to do with it.

[Eclipse]

I agree with that totaly but with an exception. Someone who has become Active Duty/Reserves (i.e. Officer or NCO) would when in their duty uniform be addressed accordingly. However when in their CAP Uniform they should wear the Grade they have earned and be addressed accordingly. I actually have been through this when we had an Active Duty Enlisted NCO who was a Capt. in CAP. When he didn't have time to change he would have to show up in his Active Duty Uniform so sometimes we would trip up.

No excuses, no exceptions - I have had far too much experience with members in a military branch, especially cadets, who "forget" or "don't have time" and somehow manage to show up in their ABU's, or dress uniform from another service.  The are fooling no one, and were they to incur some liability while they are around an aircraft or vehicle, CAP, Inc., would be well within their rights to disavow any payments.

I have yet to understand how someone who has trained to deploy to another country and live in the dirt for months at a time can't figure out how to change in the bathroom.

[RiverAux]

Have seen an AD officer do a SAREX in their military uniform.  Have seen a few times where a cadet will come in JROTC uniform.   

[Eclipse]

Have seen an AD officer do a SAREX in their military uniform.  Have seen a few times where a cadet will come in JROTC uniform.

If they are CAPRAPs its OK, if they are in CAP, change or go home.  I guarantee you that the military does not want their people
performing CAP missions in their uniform.

As to the JROTC cadet, I believe the ROTC patch is still authorized for CAP cadets, but beyond that, change or go home.

[raivo]

CAPP151 says...

"When outdoors and in uniform, cadets salute military officers, CAP senior members, and cadet officers higher in rank than themselves. Senior members salute military officers and other CAP officers higher in rank than themselves."

ROTC cadets aren't military officers until they graduate, and their cadet rank means nothing to CAP. So... for saluting purposes, they're functionally a civilian.

It's not inappropriate to salute them if a CAP cadet is so inclined, but it's not required.

(Related story: when I was at OTS, one of our upper-class yelled at some ROTC C3C for not giving him the greeting of the day in the DFAC. If I hadn't been standing at attention, I would've been rolling my eyes.)

[Daniel]

Somewhat related:

At the wing SSE we were at an armory and we greeted even specialists as they walked past.

We didn't salute as we were indoors but nevertheless I suppose you can never be too-friendly

[flyboy53]

Don't let it interfere with the way your squadron is working and this is why. JROTC cadets are on the same level as a CAP Cadet. If a JROTC officer, your cadets need to respect that, et al.

ROTC and Academy cadets are a little different. If the ROTC Cadet isn't under a contract, he's no different than your CAP Cadets. If an ROTC Cadet is under a contract, he has an enlisted rank that will vary by the years he or she has completed in the program. They begin as E-1s.  Somewhere in the process they will progress through E-5 before commissioning. I have known two Air Force Academy cadets that dropped out of the program and then are given the opportunity to enlist. In one case, the guy came in as an airman first class or E-3. In the other, he came in as a E-4 (then sergeant).

The bottom line is that they are enlisted people. They don't out rank everyone. Cadets need to respect cadet officers, but there's no protocol that makes them better or gives them greater status than a CAP Cadet or senior member officer.

Make them show you their ID Card or contract.

I would, however, strongly encourage that individual to transition to senior member status.

[Cecil DP]

Don't let it interfere with the way your squadron is working and this is why. JROTC cadets are on the same level as a CAP Cadet. If a JROTC officer, your cadets need to respect that, et al.

ROTC and Academy cadets are a little different. If the ROTC Cadet isn't under a contract, he's no different than your CAP Cadets. If an ROTC Cadet is under a contract, he has an enlisted rank that will vary by the years he or she has completed in the program. They begin as E-1s.  Somewhere in the process they will progress through E-5 before commissioning. I have known two Air Force Academy cadets that dropped out of the program and then are given the opportunity to enlist. In one case, the guy came in as an airman first class or E-3. In the other, he came in as a E-4 (then sergeant).

The bottom line is that they are enlisted people. They don't out rank everyone. Cadets need to respect cadet officers, but there's no protocol that makes them better or gives them greater status than a CAP Cadet or senior member officer.

Make them show you their ID Card or contract.

I would, however, strongly encourage that individual to transition to senior member status.

A ROTC or Academy Cadet is a CADET! The ROTC and Academy personnel are "Officer Candidates", until commissioned or dropping out of the program(s) The fact that some of their training may equate to completion of Recruit Training and allow them to enlist as an E-4 or E-3, (rather than pay back their scholorships as required in the contract)  does not make them enlisted.   

[Eclipse]

Somewhat related:

At the wing SSE we were at an armory and we greeted even specialists as they walked past.

Greeting each other is fine and expected - walk past a Petty Officer or Chief some time without an "afternoon Chief" and see how "exciting" your day gets.

Beyond that we are just "some guy" with brass, salute, return, move on.

[Flying Pig]

ROTC cadets are not enlisted.  Thety get paid that pay rate.  When I was in teh Marines, I asisted with an NROTC training and I can guarantee you, some of them may have been getting paid as an E-5 but NONE of those people were Sgt's.

The only people we need to show customs and courtesy towards are military members, either Officers or Enlisted.  JROTC, ROTC, etc. just be polite.  An ROTC cadet may as well be a local police explorer as far as we are concerned.

[Ned]

A ROTC or Academy Cadet is a CADET! The ROTC and Academy personnel are "Officer Candidates", until commissioned or dropping out of the program(s) The fact that some of their training may equate to completion of Recruit Training and allow them to enlist as an E-4 or E-3, (rather than pay back their scholorships as required in the contract)  does not make them enlisted.

I was required to sign a contract of enlistment for my Army ROTC experience as an E-5.  In exchange I received a stipend and a reminder that if I did not successfully commission that I would be allowed to serve my Uncle Sam in an enlisted capacity.

I also participated as a "simultaneous membership" cadet in the ARNG, and received two awards available only to enlisted soldiers during the two years before I was commissioned.

FWIW.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Don't let it interfere with the way your squadron is working and this is why. JROTC cadets are on the same level as a CAP Cadet. If a JROTC officer, your cadets need to respect that, et al.

ROTC and Academy cadets are a little different. If the ROTC Cadet isn't under a contract, he's no different than your CAP Cadets. If an ROTC Cadet is under a contract, he has an enlisted rank that will vary by the years he or she has completed in the program. They begin as E-1s.  Somewhere in the process they will progress through E-5 before commissioning. I have known two Air Force Academy cadets that dropped out of the program and then are given the opportunity to enlist. In one case, the guy came in as an airman first class or E-3. In the other, he came in as a E-4 (then sergeant).

The bottom line is that they are enlisted people. They don't out rank everyone. Cadets need to respect cadet officers, but there's no protocol that makes them better or gives them greater status than a CAP Cadet or senior member officer.

Make them show you their ID Card or contract.

I would, however, strongly encourage that individual to transition to senior member status.

A ROTC or Academy Cadet is a CADET! The ROTC and Academy personnel are "Officer Candidates", until commissioned or dropping out of the program(s) The fact that some of their training may equate to completion of Recruit Training and allow them to enlist as an E-4 or E-3, (rather than pay back their scholorships as required in the contract)  does not make them enlisted.

Somewhere, I have my DOD paperwork from when I resigned my AF Academy appointment. (Someone has to be in the 500 that drop the first summer). My grade was C4C Cadet Fourth Class. Not an E to be seen anywhere.

I've had the experience of a cadet showing up in US Public Health Service (PHS) BDUs w/ 2Lt bars. (PHS commission can be at 18).
As others have said "Cadet, wear your CAP uniform to CAP."

[Eclipse]

The only people we need to show customs and courtesy towards are military members, either Officers or Enlisted.  JROTC, ROTC, etc. just be polite.  An ROTC cadet may as well be a local police explorer as far as we are concerned.

I would have no issue with cadets saluting ROTC or JROTC cadets "normally" based on the relative grade of the two cadets as inter-service courtesy, but certainly any authority within CAP come solely from CAP membership.

Any "extra" is being provided to the CAP through advanced or accelerated progression in the CAP program and that's as far as it goes.

[heliodoc]

Army WO (Warrant Officer) candidates are paid at the E5 rate for, I would imagine, ease of pay status and tracking at finance office

Cadet in ROTC ...same  as above

If one fail or does not complete the WO or Officer track it reverts to E5.....guess it's a reward for at least attempting either.

Addressed as Cadet or Candidate but no status as flyboy indicated.

Nonetheless these folks volunteered just like CAP folks do and at the very least ought to get respect as CAP members would expect...greeting of the day or whatever.  But at least ROTC, ARNG, and Reserve duty is as important or more so than any CAP type activity.  This folks whether they make officer status or not....still volunteered  to a liiiiiiitle more than CAP expects of its people

CAP..........once again hung up outranking and trivial matters