You Let Your People Out Dressed Like That?

[MIKE]

Seems like uniforms are a priority of CAP based on the stuff I've seen come out of Maxwell over the years.  Heck, look at this topic area compared to some of the others.  Yet this is also one of our most visible issues. Points to countless pictures posted on the internet depicting improper uniform wear that we have all seen.  If uniforms are so important to the organization, why is this such a problem?

We all have our vices with regard to uniform wear, I know I do.  Commanders are supposed to insure complacence and control these little vices so they don't spread and infect others.  Some do, some don't... Some seem to pay too much attention to some aspects but neglect others.  Cadet shows up in a perfect short sleeved service uniform wearing multiple pairs of shirt garters... Too bad he or she is gonna cover it all up with that North Face parka when they go out to drill in November.

All the way on, or all the way off.  Wear it right or don't wear it.  It's hard... I know.

[shorning]

Feel better?

[MIKE]

Feel better?

I should've just called it Mien Ramphf. 

[RiverAux]

Does it make you feel any better to know that uniforms is only the #2 discussion group here in terms of number of topics and that the #3 topic is ES and is only 7 topics behind uniforms? 

My opinion is that we talk about uniforms so much because they keep getting changed so much by CAP.  Its a constant source of new topics. 

I'm sure you noticed that CG Aux uniforms are pretty stable and rarely get any play on the Aux boards -- unless there is a change.

[MIKE]

Does it make you feel any better to know that uniforms is only the #2 discussion group here in terms of number of topics and that the #3 topic is ES and is only 7 topics behind uniforms? 

My opinion is that we talk about uniforms so much because they keep getting changed so much by CAP.  Its a constant source of new topics.

Well... The point of Mien Ramphf is not so much that we talk about uniforms constantly... I like to discuss uniforms as much as the next guy.  It's that we wear them improperly consistently, despite the apparent focus.

I'm sure you noticed that CG Aux uniforms are pretty stable and rarely get any play on the Aux boards -- unless there is a change.

How many ALCOASTs and/or ALAUXs did you get in your inbox last week RiverAux? Luckily for me I don't have ODUs... yet.

[DNall]

Threee reasons & you mentioned one of them:
1) Enforcement/Culture:
a) Isolated small units w/o corrective synergistic culture to force everyone into the team mold.
b)This is compounded by complex regs - not unlike the mil, but in our case & because of this unique situation it should be crystal clear with details like it was written for a martian (but in english).

2) Supply-chain:
a) unlike the mil, we have to buy everything w/o ready access to it &/or use worn out stuff that isn't always up to par, and we have to deal with poor members/cadets that aren't being paid a known amount to fix it themselves.
b) We also don't have access to mil cleaners & tailors that know how to do things for us at a reasonable cost, so you get members working harder to press/sew their own stuff & they may or may not have that skill, or again the ability to pay someone else for it.
c) in both these cases mil personnel expect a uniform of any kind to be worn to the same standards they wear uniforms to, but they can do that MUCH easier than isolated poor CAP members w/ little guidance or help.
d) and also Vanguard, and the death of alternate suppliers. If we're stuck with mail order then it better be the best there is to keep up with the Amn that can drive over to the BX/clothing sales.

3) Leadership:
a) inconsistent: like blues shirt isn't the same rule as white aviator, coats are dif, everything
b) TOO many combinations giving every indiv what they ask for in a fleeting moment isn't really helping members.
c) SO many changes via so manu dif approval & deliver methods.
d) such bad communication

So yes we can & should do a better job, and no I'm not making excuses, but there are things that make it hard for us, and I would hope some of those can be addressed at some point.

[Pylon]

2) Supply-chain:
a) unlike the mil, we have to buy everything w/o ready access to it &/or use worn out stuff that isn't always up to par, and we have to deal with poor members/cadets that aren't being paid a known amount to fix it themselves.
b) We also don't have access to mil cleaners & tailors that know how to do things for us at a reasonable cost, so you get members working harder to press/sew their own stuff & they may or may not have that skill, or again the ability to pay someone else for it.
c) in both these cases mil personnel expect a uniform of any kind to be worn to the same standards they wear uniforms to, but they can do that MUCH easier than isolated poor CAP members w/ little guidance or help.

Frankly, those a, b, and c items are huge for me trying to keep my cadets all in perfect 39-1 uniforms.  We can point things out to them, reinforce compliance and team spirit, help them with it and everything else.   But I can't pay for everything they need from The Hock and Vanguard, replace their worn BDUs with new ones, replace that aging [insert item here] with a shiny new one, nor buy their footwear for them.

Do we get them set-up with the minimum basic cadet blues, a full set of BDUs and even some other accessories when they join?  Yep, absolutely.    But how many of you (especially when you were a cadet, if you've had the pleasure) have never had to sink money into a uniform you already owned to maintain it?

Uniforms aren't just expensive to set-up, they're an expensive thing to maintain and frankly, it can become a function of funding, ability, and access much of the time.  We still do our best and try to minimize it, but you can't solve it all.  Unless you happen to be a millionaire with a generous checkbook, then yes, yes you can solve it all... and let's do coffee later this week....   

[DNall]

Unless you happen to be a millionaire with a generous checkbook, then yes, yes you can solve it all... and let's do coffee later this week....   

Wanna bet?

And side note, you'd be amazed how much it costs over & above the pay to be a guard/reserve officer. Just keep things in perspective.

[jimmydeanno]

Frankly, those a, b, and c items are huge for me trying to keep my cadets all in perfect 39-1 uniforms. 

Is that the written part of 39-1 or the pictures...but I digress...

[RiverAux]

Dnall, I think that was an excellent summary. 

[Eagle400]

Frankly, those a, b, and c items are huge for me trying to keep my cadets all in perfect 39-1 uniforms. 

Is that the written part of 39-1 or the pictures...but I digress...

I know... sad, isin't it?  We waited all those years for the new 39-1 only to find that most of the work was done haphazardly.  The bassackwards ribbons on the cadet pictured are a perfect example.  There's also a picture of an officer wearing the blue service shirt without a t-shirt on underneath.  Very sad.   

[JC004]

Frankly, those a, b, and c items are huge for me trying to keep my cadets all in perfect 39-1 uniforms. 

Is that the written part of 39-1 or the pictures...but I digress...

Well, look at the bright side.  At least the top ribbon is in the right spot.   

I remember a couple of years ago at our CLS, I asked a C/2d Lt why his blues were so whacked.  He said it was only the second time he had worn blues.     Hummmm...

[RiverAux]

I'm sure you noticed that CG Aux uniforms are pretty stable and rarely get any play on the Aux boards -- unless there is a change.

How many ALCOASTs and/or ALAUXs did you get in your inbox last week RiverAux? Luckily for me I don't have ODUs... yet.

Yes, but I've had my ODUs for about 2-2 1/2 years now and have never had to change anything (and won't because of the new ALCOAST either) while in the same time period I've had to make 3 mandatory changes to my BDUs (flags, rank insignia on collar, and rank insiginia on hat) and had the option to make 2 other changes (remove wing patch, add the new US Civil Air Patrol tapes).  The CG is much, much more stable so you don't have to worry about learning new uniform regs every 6 months. 

[DNall]

CAP uniforms historically are more stable than they have been in the modern era.

Historically the corp-style uniforms have been just that, common civilian business attire to which a couple things could be attached & good to go. It's only been in the last 15 years that CAP has tried to make those into decernable uniforms, which was not the intention at all. So that has been a rapid evolution of those items & the changes of late are just sticking to the exponential pace.

The AF-style uniforms historically change VERY little, in fact less often than the AF with our longer phase in/out dates that allow us to wait till they get the details settled. You may move a badge around a bit or add/remove a small item or something, but overall there is very little change. The gray slides/nametags & reposition mil wings is the biggest thing I can remember. All these changes with BDUs, that's a new thing, and I think bleed over from the corp style side. It used to be that the AF-style was VERY stable cause it required a hurculean effort to get anything changed thru AF. Now we seem to change things at will & phase them in thru corps so AF is boxed in on decisions. That's not cool.

I think it won't be too much more of this, then things will stabalize for a a good long period.

Far as the CGAux lack of whinning on the subject. I'd attribute a lot of that to they got no say in the matter. In CAP if membership cries long & loud enough (especially with fresh retention numbers floating around) then leadership will do anything they think they cna get away with.

[RiverAux]

Far as the CGAux lack of whinning on the subject. I'd attribute a lot of that to they got no say in the matter. In CAP if membership cries long & loud enough (especially with fresh retention numbers floating around) then leadership will do anything they think they cna get away with. 

There is little evidence that many CAP uniform changes are pushed by CAP members at large.  They are mostly either at the whim of a small number of Wing Commanders, the National Commander or a best buddy of one of the above. 

[mikeylikey]

Unless you happen to be a millionaire with a generous checkbook, then yes, yes you can solve it all... and let's do coffee later this week....   

Wanna bet?

And side note, you'd be amazed how much it costs over & above the pay to be a guard/reserve officer. Just keep things in perspective.

HAHA....the "upfront" uniform allowance they give to new officers nowhere comes close to paying for all the uniforms that the service requires.  I shelled out an excess of 600 dollars above the then $250.00 to purchase uniforms.  That is almost as much as I have dumped on CAP uniforms come to think of it!

[capchiro]

To address the original posting, the Reg's say that the only required cadet uniform is the short sleeve blue shirt and blue pants and any other uniform will be furnished at no charge to the cadet or be optional.  So, unless you, your squadron, or National are ready to issue filed jackets at no cost, you really, really can't require them and you better not ostracise a cadet for not being in uniform when it wasn't furnished or optional.  What's the answer?  Either the Air Force issue us BDU's and filed jackets, or change the Reg's..  As usual, JMHO and the Reg's of course..

[DNall]

And side note, you'd be amazed how much it costs over & above the pay to be a guard/reserve officer. Just keep things in perspective.

HAHA....the "upfront" uniform allowance they give to new officers nowhere comes close to paying for all the uniforms that the service requires.  I shelled out an excess of 600 dollars above the then $250.00 to purchase uniforms.  That is almost as much as I have dumped on CAP uniforms come to think of it!

Upfront meaning yoy'll get it later sometime, and ACUs cost more & seem to last six months, rip out lots. Such crap. I know a recruiter that came back in the guard after a break in service from active duty, and he's got one set of ACUs that he bought on his own, and that's the six day a week guy they got out front representing them, and not even an officer that's supposed to buy their own. How crazy is that?

To address the original posting, the Reg's say that the only required cadet uniform is the short sleeve blue shirt and blue pants and any other uniform will be furnished at no charge to the cadet or be optional.  So, unless you, your squadron, or National are ready to issue filed jackets at no cost, you really, really can't require them and you better not ostracise a cadet for not being in uniform when it wasn't furnished or optional.  What's the answer?  Either the Air Force issue us BDU's and filed jackets, or change the Reg's..  As usual, JMHO and the Reg's of course..

That goes only so far. Short Sleeves are not appropriate all year long, and they don't issue any kind of coat, or shoes, sometimes belts, usually hats, and that all takes weeks to come in. They then become responsible for that stuff.

The AF's view is, like AFJROTC, that they just need basic blues, but are authorized additional stuff including BDUs, though they don't want that to be a barrier to participation for the under priv. However, cadets come to us over programs like JROTC because of BDUs & teh field work that makes them necessary.