You guys are going to LOVE this...

[bflynn]

There's other history that you're missing...

[johnnyb47]

There's other history that you're missing...

So... are you guys, like.... FAMILY or something?

[Extremepredjudice]

Update: After tonight, I have decided, no more CAP. Or at least no more of my squadron.


The wing commander showed up to give our squadron an award. So I requested to speak with him in private about what happened at the FTX. I had a document that outlined it, so I gave it to the Wing commander, and he took it, and requested an electronic copy.

After this glimmer of hope, the squadron commander pulls me into another room with another SM. He starts trying to force me to tell him what I talked to the colonel about, and I refused, citing whistleblower policy and protected communications (OK so it DOESN'T technically apply, but I couldn't get in contact with the IG when I tried to before about another issue). He continues with "If you try to transfer I am going to deny your request," so I stood up and said "Sir, I would like my parent present for the conversation," (my mother was in the meeting room) and walked towards the door to get my mother. The squadron commander comes back with "If you leave I am going to start the paperwork on your termination." I stood there for like 10 seconds like  and I finally said "I believe I should have my PARENT with me." and left the room.

30 seconds later I am back with my mother, and the squadron commander changed the whole thing into me being disrespectful, snippy, and had a poor attitude. The squadron commander tried to railroad his point across and only let me respond a few times. We didn't resolve anything and everything I or my mother tried to bring up or say he'd basically ignore and continue with his tirade. He even claimed I was rude to this cadet SET from another squadron. I don't believe I was, but if I hypothetically was, that cadet would've let me know. And the cadet definitly wouldn't have talked to me for 3 hours (excluding when we had work to do..[we were both mission base staff during that time]) at a SAREX me and him were at.

I tried to bring all of my complaints up, but he basically made up stuff against it. In example, I wanted to know why I was still an element member, even though my rank is SMSgt? He told me it was because I needed to be a follower, and blamed it on the C/CC. Who, coincidentally, told me earlier in the meeting he wanted to change the CoC, but couldn't because of the squadron commander. Who to believe?

He also tried to give me some line of BS about how if we got a squadron website the site would have to connect to an air force server (Can someone empirically debunk this?).

At this point I don't care. I guess I'll transfer squadrons, file an IG complaint, and since the other squadron is to far away, I won't be able to attend any meetings. I'll just go to SAREXs. Basically remain active on the group, wing, and nat'l level, but never anything at a squadron. I guess I am going to have to give up my dreams on being a Spaatz cadet, no squadron meetings, no promotions.

Bflynn, I wouldn't believe myself if I wasn't there. If someone told me these stories, I would doubt them. That said, the point of my posting this was to get feedback, which is what I need. Be cynical, but accept the story on a hypothetical level and respond appropriately. It seriously is a drama filled saga, though.

[CAP4117]

EP,
It sounds to me like this confrontation had much less to do with what happened at the SAREX and more to do with issues that had been present for awhile. There are clearly some major problems here, and it's hard to say more than that, not knowing any more about the situation. I understand that you were upset, and it sounds like you had reason to be, but IMHO going straight to the Wing Commander with this may have made things worse in the long run, especially if you didn't make an attempt to solve it at the squadron level first (I wasn't sure from your post whether you did or not). Putting that aside, though, I don't think you should quit CAP over this, or give up any dreams of being a Spaatz cadet. Here on CT, you have demonstrated your dedication to the program, and that's really important. Driven and motivated cadets like you keep this program running. And, the damages may not be irreparable at your squadron. I guess my advice is don't make any quick decisions that you might regret later. Other people with more CAP experience probably have better advice for you, just my two cents.

[PA Guy]

Based on all of your posts here on Cap Talk I get the impression you fancy yourself quite the barracks room lawyer and smarter than the avg. bear and combined that comes across as arrogance.  Going to the Wing CC over a wardrobe issue!  Give me a break.  I think most of your problems are of your own making.  Stop trying to show everyone how smart you think your are.  And remember there are always two sides to every story and we are only hearing yours. 

[Brad]

He also tried to give me some line of BS about how if we got a squadron website the site would have to connect to an air force server (Can someone empirically debunk this?).

CAPR 110-1 makes no mention of CAP websites being forced to be hosted on an Air Force server. The only thing that is addressed is specific point items as to what defines CAP Internet Operations, and who is the issuing authority for cap.gov and capnhq.gov domains.

a.  CAP Internet Operation. Any activity operated or conducted through the Internet  if: 1) such operations make use  of a  domain name registered or assigned to Civil Air  Patrol, including, but not limited to, CAP.GOV or CAPNHQ.GOV or 2)  use is made of the name "Civil  Air Patrol"  or its insignia, copyrights, emblems  and badges, descriptive or designating marks and words used in carrying out its program which name and marks are specifically owned by Civil Air Patrol pursuant to 36 United States Code § 206.

4. Approval To Conduct CAP  Internet Operation.  CAP units presently involved with or desiring to be involved with a CAP internet operation must obtain approval for such operations as follows: a) for CAP.GOV domain delegations or any other CAP internet operations, approval must be provided by either the National Commander or the applicable region or wing commander or their designee. b) for CAPNHQ.GOV domain  delegations, approval must be provided by the CAP Executive Director, or designee. 5. Withdrawal of Approval. Approval to conduct  a CAP internet operation may be withdrawn, at any time, as follows: a) for CAP.GOV domain delegations or other CAP internet operations, by either the National Commander or the appropriate region or wing commander or their designee; b) for CAPNHQ.GOV domain delegations,  by the CAP Executive Director or designee; c.) any withdrawal of approval  may be appealed to the next higher echelon commander (or NEC or National Board, if withdrawal is made by the Executive Director or National Commander) whose decision shall be final.  6.  Identification. CAP internet operations involving web pages must set forth the name "Civil Air Patrol" and immediately thereafter identify the name of the sponsoring unit on the main page of the site. CAP internet operations involving e-mail, chat
groups,  bulletin boards, list-servers or similar communications  must include the name of the person involved in the communication and, as applicable, their CAP rank or CAP position  of employment.

[NCRblues]

Going to the wing commander was SUCH a bad move. Not only did it make you look bad, but it made the squadron commander and CDC look bad as well for not being able to control a c/SMSGT...

If I was your CDC or commander at the minimum you would get an LOR and a demotion. I would seriously discuss 2b action for your failure to use your chain of command. Having a pre typed letter shows you had intent and this was not done on a teenage spur of the moment whim. You had more than enough time to follow the chain of command. You go to your commander, if you don't like the answer you get; you go to the next level so forth and so on. No where does it say cadet to wing king... Bad move son. Bad move. There are so many levels between you and the wing commander its not even funny and hurts my earballs to think about.

[Extremepredjudice]

Based on all of your posts here on Cap Talk I get the impression you fancy yourself quite the barracks room lawyer and smarter than the avg. bear and combined that comes across as arrogance.  Going to the Wing CC over a wardrobe issue!  Give me a break.  I think most of your problems are of your own making.  Stop trying to show everyone how smart you think your are.  And remember there are always two sides to every story and we are only hearing yours.

I was going to him because I could not get in contact with the wing IG. The reasoning behind it was because of the way the SM came to me (threateningly). Not over the wear of the boonie hat, at this point the boonie hat doesn't matter, what matters is the threatening nature of the SM.

I wasn't trying to jump the CoC. I was trying to get in contact with the wing IG.

Going to the wing commander was SUCH a bad move. Not only did it make you look bad, but it made the squadron commander and CDC look bad as well for not being able to control a c/SMSGT...

If I was your CDC or commander at the minimum you would get an LOR and a demotion. I would seriously discuss 2b action for your failure to use your chain of command. Having a pre typed letter shows you had intent and this was not done on a teenage spur of the moment whim. You had more than enough time to follow the chain of command. You go to your commander, if you don't like the answer you get; you go to the next level so forth and so on. No where does it say cadet to wing king... Bad move son. Bad move. There are so many levels between you and the wing commander its not even funny and hurts my earballs to think about.

The reason I had a pre-typed letter was to give to the squadron commander. The wing commander requested to see it, when I mentioned it. After that he requested to keep it. Yes, I didn't follow CoC. I apoligized about that to both the Wing King and the squadron commander.


The Squadron commander still insists that he can "authorize anything, whether it is a clown hat or a boonie hat."

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

First off, I still do not believe you should leave CAP.

However, I do think you erred greatly in doing an end run around your CC.  No commissioned/warrant officer/NCO likes that, and that extends to CAP officers.  I served as a safety officer for a number of years.  An SE reports directly to the unit CC, and has a great deal of leeway on allowing or disallowing activities based on the SE's assessment of how safe or unsafe it could be.  I know I honked some people off in disallowing some activities.  In one case the cadet commander did an end run around me to the CC, asking him about permission for an activity.  The CC and I had a very good relationship and he said "go ask the Safety Officer."  I was not pleased with what the cadet commander had done, and I let him know about it in no uncertain terms, in the presence of the CC.

The chain of command sometimes does not work to our satisfaction.  In fact, sometimes it sucks.  It is only as good as the people staffing it.  However, it is there for a reason.  Had you used it, even if the results were not favourable to you, your complaint to the wingco would have had a lot more credibility.  It would have shown you know and respect the system, even as mind-burning as it can be sometimes.  If you were in the military, the fallout to your career could be great.  The first thing I remember learning long ago at BMT was the chain of command, from the President down to the MTI.  The MTI's started teaching that before anything else, which should show you how great an emphasis the military puts on it.  I would guess that it is similar in Army, Navy, Marine Corps and Coast Guard basic training.

Despite that, your CC was way off base in saying what he did about a squadron website having to connect to an Air Force server.  I say that as a former IT and hardware technician of 15 years' standing.

Before you gave your written document to the wingco, you should have sat on it for a while.  Often we write/say things in the heat of anger and frustration that we end up wishing we could retract.  BTDT.

I do agree that this has a lot more going on under the surface than what happened at your SAREX, and without having been there to witness it, I cannot make a rational assessment.

I cannot honestly say if the waters in your squadron have been poisoned so badly for you to not be able to continue there...but I also do not see why your CC would disallow your transfer.  If I were in that position, I would recognise that the tension generated is not good for the squadron as a whole.

I cannot advise you on what you should do next, except possibly enlist the aid of a Chaplain as an intermediary between you and the CC.

[lordmonar]

Well.....welcome to life lesson #128.......if you piss off your boss......you are going to pay for it.

I won't question your motives nor your actions.......but this is what we mean about picking your battles.

Now the key is to move on.  Good Luck.

[SPD6696]

"what matters is the threatening nature of the SM"

This.

I couldn't care less about the uniform and stitch-counting drama I see so much of here.  But the described bullying by a SM (who is the parent of the cadet that got corrected by the poster) is completely unacceptable.  And, even if is is a matter of perception, it warrants serious investigation to get to the bottom of it.  The OP may not be the only cadet that has experienced this.  I consider it a warning sign that needs inquiry.

[Extremepredjudice]

Sir, IGs are out of the CoC (at least as far as I know, or did it change?). I merely asked the wing king to deliver a message, since I was not able to get in contact with the wing IG.

[PA Guy]

You just don't get it.  Stop the quibbling and trying to prove how smart you are. 

[CAP4117]

Sir, I understand your frustration but comments like that are not constructive. We all agree it was a mistake to go to the wing commander. I think what this cadet needs right now is some solid guidance about what to do going forward. Demeaning him accomplishes nothing.

[Extremepredjudice]

You just don't get it.  Stop the quibbling and trying to prove how smart you are.

I'm not. I am trying to get advice. Which, apparently, isn't happening. 


Threats are not quibbling. Threats are serious. IT ISN'T ABOUT THE BOONIE HAT. IT IS ABOUT THE THREATENING ATTITUDE OF THE SM.

[SPD6696]

I recall a post made here.  http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=15075.msg271369#msg271369.

The cadet has been confronted with a problem.  Whether he has had problems communicating the actual issue beyond the stupid boonie hat, or, whether some people on here refuse to, or are incapable of, comprehending that, is arguable.  However, you have a cadet that has shared a problem, beyond what color socks a person is wearing, and some on here are attacking him.  How about being adults and steering him in the right direction.

This is CAP.  He is a cadet.  He was bullied by a SM, maybe more, now.  Now, I understand all about the military chain of command, etc.  But, that goes out the window when it comes to youth protection.  In my opinion, youth protection in CAP trumps everything.  I believe that this incident warrants further investigation.  I'm not saying who is right or wrong, but, I am saying that when a youth in this program comes forward, and goes to a person (the wing king) in the organization with a problem, attack and criticism by people on the internet that know nothing more than what he has shared is both irresponsible and ignorant.

[Spaceman3750]

EP,

I think there's some bad attitudes all around with this situation, yours included. I would strongly recommend that you take a step back, relax, and think this through fully. While this was a bad situation from the get-go, you didn't help your position by going around your squadron and group commanders to the wing CC. We don't have both sides of this story, nor the whole picture, so all I can say is that I think this is one situation where your abrasive/caustic (as you once put it) personality has come back to bite you in the butt (I hate to say I told you so, but...). Instead of approaching things with a cool head, you potentially escalated it with a cadet know-it-all attitude and 50 year old men don't tend to respond well to that (BTDT). While their personality is their problem, you have to know how to let things go or use the system correctly.

Hope everything works itself out.

[NCRblues]

I will offer the advice you seem to be asking for.

Your original handling of the "bonnie hat" situation was spot it (if we are to believe your side of the story and your side only).

Your handling of the situation after is less than stellar.

You seem very intelligent. You know how to post on captalk, so I am sure you can look up regulations and guidance on IG complaints. From what I read in your story and IG would not act on this anyway. The SM in question on the first incident (although wrong in his regulatory understanding) did nothing against CPPT or any other protective regulations. You (as my MTI always used to tell us) where "butt hurt" that you knew the rules and someone appointed over you did not. Welcome to life, we deal with this everyday as SM's.

Your handling of that was not anywhere near close, nor is it anywhere near what I expect out of my SNCO cadets. It is immaterial if the wing commander asked for the paper you wrote or not. You asked to speak to him/her privately and then brought up the letter. This was the wrong move, and I am 100% sure you knew this at the time and im 100% sure you know now. Jumping the chain so massively is hardly ever forgiven nor forgotten in CAP or any military style organization. The wing commander does not simply "carry a message" for a cadet of any rank/grade. Thinking this is ok means you did not learn some of the basic principles that the first several leadership chapters where supposed to teach you. Simply put, you should have followed the chain of command.

So, here is my advice. Apologize, to EVERYONE for your handling of the situation. The sooner the better and do it publicly. Yes it will sting your pride, but a 2b or other adverse action is not something you want to carry around with you. Openly say you handled the situation badly, seek forgiveness and reconciliation. Try and close this chapter, make the first step. Those SM's you bypassed are not pleased with you. Be the bigger person, admit your mistakes and for lack of a better term this late at night....grovel.

[PA Guy]

I recall a post made here.  http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=15075.msg271369#msg271369.

The cadet has been confronted with a problem.  Whether he has had problems communicating the actual issue beyond the stupid boonie hat, or, whether some people on here refuse to, or are incapable of, comprehending that, is arguable.  However, you have a cadet that has shared a problem, beyond what color socks a person is wearing, and some on here are attacking him.  How about being adults and steering him in the right direction.

This is CAP.  He is a cadet.  He was bullied by a SM, maybe more, now.  Now, I understand all about the military chain of command, etc.  But, that goes out the window when it comes to youth protection.  In my opinion, youth protection in CAP trumps everything.  I believe that this incident warrants further investigation.  I'm not saying who is right or wrong, but, I am saying that when a youth in this program comes forward, and goes to a person (the wing king) in the organization with a problem, attack and criticism by people on the internet that know nothing more than what he has shared is both irresponsible and ignorant.

The cadet involved is not a fool.  He knows that if he was hazed he can file a CPP complaint.  The senior(s) involved  will be immediately suspended and a formal investigation will ensue.  He had that chance apparently with his Wing CC and chose not to do it or failed to make it clear that he was reporting a CPP violation.  He has not been attacked but offered some real world advice that he requested. 

[AngelWings]

My advice: Take a step back, think your next moves out carefully, and whatever you do, do not make any rash choices. Going to the wing king wasn't the brightest idea, but I'm sure now your problem is well noted. The senior members in question here all sound like they have egos out of this world. As others have said, calm down trying to prove how smart you. The smartest of people know when it is time to keep quiet about themselves. Now, I'm sure everybody involved in this situation is a bit butthurt over trying to prove a point. NOBODY likes to lose an arguement or feel lesser than somebody else. I can see that in you and the senior members you talk about. If they were trying to get you to run your mouth, than you played right in their hands.

A few things to keep in mind:

Politics sometimes is the best policy: You might have to suck up and apologize for anything they disagree about, and make it seem like you learned your lesson and make them, if possible, think you are truely a real man and a great cadet.

"We are soldiers, we shut our mouths and follow orders." (quotations from Ace Combat 5: The Unsung War): Remember your rank and position in the CoC. Again, being right doesn't mean you can make the situation right. I suggest trying to keep what comes out of your mouth to them at a minimal and to follow orders (unless they are unethical/moral).

A show of intelligence is a show of force to the unintelligent: By you undermining your CC, you have put yourself in a position where you seem to be hostile to them. Now, that doesn't mean you were hostile, but simply stated, you went out of your way to show intelligence and are now paying for it (not that I think it is right). Do not try to show extreme intelligence any matter pertaining to your situation again, because it did nothing for you the first time.

Document EVERYTHING: He signed, she signed. If you don't document everything they do wrong, than you're not going to have any proof. The means of documentation should be both written, and if possible and hidden, recorded. If you have proof of their malicious comments and actions, than you can present it to the wing IG.

In closing, this is my 0.02 and I hope this gives some guidance to you.