You guys are going to LOVE this...

[Extremepredjudice]

With age comes the ability to better pick one's battles.

In the end, it's a stupid hat that the commander said was okay to wear. Was it really worth the trouble to prove him wrong?

Sir, put yourself in my shoes. You are in charge of a flight. Other squadrons are there (Including C/NCOs and C/officers).

How does it make your squadron and your leadership look when someone has unauthorized uniform items on? It makes us look like a bunch of idiots.

Yes, I could have ignored it, but ignoring it reflects badly on me as a senior NCO and reflects just as badly on our squadron.

, I think you handled it properly, especially if the cadet was in your chain and this senior
wasn't.

The SM was miles away from my CoC. He didn't have any sort of position at the FTX Edit: Sorry I just remembered, he actually was asst. safety.

[Майор Хаткевич]

EP.

Having been a "firebrand" cadet on some issues myself, I know I would have landed in the same situation you have.

Like others said, you do NOT and should not have to quit. In fact, we need more cadets like you.

Bring the regs. Bring the latest consolidated ICL. Don't bring it up unless it comes up. If you get called into a discussion about it, you tell the Deputy Commander of Cadets or the Squadron Commander (and maybe a Leadership Officer) what happened. If the same SMs are the people talking, politely tell them that you will ONLY discuss this with the officers listed above. Most likely they will go away right then. If not they are fools.

As a cadet in a leadership position, you did everything right. If the SM did in fact yell at you and say even SOME of the things you listed, I'd expect at least an apology and at most would LOVE to see them get the boot.

[Major Lord]

Lt's are expected to do stupid things, we don't boot them for stupidity. Were we to do so, we  would be a much smaller organization! A little private counseling is the remedy of choice. Wall-to wall if required.

Major Lord

[Майор Хаткевич]

Lt's are expected to do stupid things, we don't boot them for stupidity. Were we to do so, we  would be a much smaller organization! A little private counseling is the remedy of choice. Wall-to wall if required.

Major Lord

Adults are expected to act like adults. The [don't want to say it] wouldn't come up to another student in his kids school and do that. Chances are he'd be leaving the school property in handcuffs.

This is why I'm always weary of the child/parent sign ups. Most are ok, but some are helo pilots to the max.

[ZigZag911]

The fascinating point here is that the agitated SM kept mentioning that the other officer in question was "HMRS Honor Graduate"...while many of their uniform items have been authorized in recent years, for DECADES Hawk Mtn. was famous throughout CAP for wearing badges and such forbidden by CAP regs (usually on the strength of "PA WG CC said it's OK!").

So HMRS is hardly a shining example of adhering to (or perhaps even knowing!) the fine points of uniform rules!

[EMT-83]

With age comes the ability to better pick one's battles.

In the end, it's a stupid hat that the commander said was okay to wear. Was it really worth the trouble to prove him wrong?

Sir, put yourself in my shoes. You are in charge of a flight. Other squadrons are there (Including C/NCOs and C/officers).

How does it make your squadron and your leadership look when someone has unauthorized uniform items on? It makes us look like a bunch of idiots.

Yes, I could have ignored it, but ignoring it reflects badly on me as a senior NCO and reflects just as badly on our squadron.

Yes, you are in charge of the flight. However, your boss has made his decision. It is not your responsibility to issue instructions counter to his. Except for a blatant safety issue, it's time to keep your mouth shut.

Sorry, that's life. When you get to be the boss, you can call the shots.

Incidentally, I had a similar incident occur at a Wing-wide SAREX being run out of my squadron. One of my members, not in compliance with grooming standards, appeared in BDUs and a boonie hat.

This guy has worn BBDUs and a patrol cap ever since he joined. When does he pull this nonsense? The day that the Wing Commander, Chief of Staff and State Director are in the building. Ouch.

I handled it, and quickly. Still can't believe what I saw walk in the door.

[davedove]

Just as a point of accuracy, although I think most will call it the Blue BDU uniform, it is officially called the CAP Field Uniform, per CAPM 39-1.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The fascinating point here is that the agitated SM kept mentioning that the other officer in question was "HMRS Honor Graduate"...while many of their uniform items have been authorized in recent years, for DECADES Hawk Mtn. was famous throughout CAP for wearing badges and such forbidden by CAP regs (usually on the strength of "PA WG CC said it's OK!").

So HMRS is hardly a shining example of adhering to (or perhaps even knowing!) the fine points of uniform rules!

Yes.  Why the emphasis on this joker being a HMRS alum?  I am singularly unimpressed when people try to throw stuff like that in my face.  To me they're just another CAP member, and if they're senior in rank to me I pay them that respect, and if they're junior in rank to me, they would do well not to try and say "because I'm a HMRS alum, I can disregard what you say."

An HMRS alum's biological byproducts stink just as bad as anyone else's.

[bflynn]

Any SM watching that should have stepped in to calm things down, and any SM with a kid in the program should mind his own (darn) business with any problem that concerns his kid.

Yes, it's unbelievable that anyone would stand by while a SM berated a cadet in such a hostile manner.  It's completely counter to what I've seen. 

Is it possible you've heard only one side of the story?

[SPD6696]

If you expect to get dogpiled, I certainly would be prepared with hardcopies of the pertinent regs.  I had a similar situation regarding blue cords and discs in the Army, and had a copy of 670-1, and used it to my advantage.

I find it pathetic that someone would behave in the manner that a SM did to you.  Bullying is bullying, regardless of the setting or how it is done.  Personally, I think that person owes you an apology, topic notwithstanding, for behaving in an unprofessional manner.

As a parent, I would have a problem with this.  I tend to stay out of CAP business that my kid is involved in, however, from past experiences, I am very aware that not everyone in whatever organization is professional, and, oversight systems can fail.  Senior Members can also be wrong.  I believe I put it in another thread, but, at one of my kids meetings, when I was dropping him off, I saw SM, a new Lt, wearing a goatee with his AF style blues.  Not acceptable, but, not my problem.

You are always going to have people that pooch it.  The best you can do, until you are the man in charge, is to keep yourself squared away, those under your command squared away, and protect yourself.  It sounds like, from your posts, this is what you were trying to do. 

[bflynn]

I doubt anyone is going to get dogpiled.  Go back and read the description carefully.

Props to the cadet for standing up for the regulations.

Negs to him for picking a a bad fight, essentially against the squadron commander who apparently authorized the hat.  Cadet vs Squadron Commander?  Even if you win, you lose.

Ok, what would have been better - raise enough confrontation so that you've used what little authority you have to express what's important to you.  Airman, that hat isn't authorized, please put your patrol cap back on (except...it was authorized, just not properly?).

That's it.  If a SM "gets in your face" you smile and thank him for his input.  You don't argue with them.

Ultimately, you can't change the world.  You can't even really change your corner of it because you cannot take responsibility for someone else's action.  If they're wrong and the Squadron Commander is wrong, your choice is to invoke the wrath of God and call someone higher or just grit your teeth and let it go.  When you're the commander, you can make the call. 

You have to choose how YOU react to something. You can't force someone else's reaction.  Let go of the illusion of control and see how that works.

Brian

[Майор Хаткевич]

Or, you know, in the world of adults the Commander looks at the regulations he knows he has to abide by, thanks the cadet, and reprimands the SM who crossed some lines.

[johnnyb47]

"even if I an wrong, can you do me the favor of just wearring your patrol cap?"

:clap:

I really like how this is said.
"We DO have a misunderstanding of the regulations. Either the person who authorized it for wear is wrong or I am wrong. Until we determine which is true would you please wear the item that we all KNOW for sure is authorized?"

As a SM if you came to ME with a similar request in regard to one of the uniform items I was wearing at that event I would have agreed.
Further, my sons are both in CAP. If either one of them came crying to me about the hat discussion I would have said, "I'm not your dad. My advice is to comply with the request then seek clarification on the uniform items authorization after the event via your CoC and the regulations."
I give my sons no preferential treatment in either direction.

[SPD6696]

I doubt anyone is going to get dogpiled.  Go back and read the description carefully.

I DID read it carefully.  The Cadet typed this. 

"Now I know he is going to dogpile (him and his friends) me at our next meeting (no meeting this week, so next week). So I ask you CapTalk, what would you do in my situation? At this point, I might as well not stay in CAP. The only people that had the guts to stand up to the SM with me, where from other squadrons. All the cadets from my squadron were to afraid.
I am thinking about printing the appropriate areas of the regulations, and using them if they try to dogpile me."

From his account of the incident, and I am basing my assessment on that account, since there isn't a second account (taking the Cadet at his word), it sounds like there is an issue with the SM leadership in the squadron.  I'm not going to poopoo it and take the position of, "Well, we haven't heard both sides of the story."  The Cadet posted, explaining the incident, and asking advice.   So, there is a Commander breaking the rules.  There is a SM throwing a tantrum when his son, a Cadet, is corrected by a ranking Cadet, and then bullying said Cadet.  There is a FEAR on the part of the Cadet, or Cadets, of a SM, or multiple SMs.  There appears to be a click of SMs that is so apparent that this Cadet is gearing up to deal with it, and is even considering getting out of CAP.  The Cadet described how he handled it, and it was reasonable and correct. 

Some may not think this is a big deal, but, I do.  When you have a program like CAP that prides itself on being a positive experience for Cadets, and a place of safety, with the tight Cadet welfare regs and training, but a Cadet is AFRAID of a SM, or multiple members, I see a problem.  I think the SMs in the unit owe it to the Cadet to act correctly and appropriately, and to set an example by following regulations.

[Major Lord]

If Cadets knew how much power they had, just by claiming that they had been "abused" by a Senior Member, they could shut down every activity they attend!  Once a Cadet rings this bell, it is almost impossible, by regulation, to un-ring it.  Local commanders have very little leeway once that "911" call has been placed. The butt chewing of the Cadet in this case was a bad thing, but it sounds like he handled it with appropriate restraint.

The larger question, is, once a cadet is confronted by a Command or Command Chain that requires he/she to tolerate something they know is not permitted, or worse, specifically prohibited by regulations, what are their options? Does the average cadet know how to go through, or if necessary, outside, their own chain of command? Cadets, guess what? Senior Members frequently have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to Cadet Programs...this has probably been a shock to you......They will rely on what they may have learned in the military, the Boy Scouts, or what business refers to as "Best Practices", none of which will directly correlate with the CAP regs or mindset, or culture.

So, lets divide irregular senior member activity into two distinct categories: Immediate, and delayed. An example of an immediate violation might be a Senior member attacking a Cadet ( or vice-verse, I have seen it happen with my own eyes), ordering you to attack a grizzly bear, with a number 2 pencil, or offering to spank Cadet Bambi for her bad-girl behavior. If no Senior steps in, call 911, do not pass go, do not collect $200.00. I think you will find that the "herd Instinct in adults is much stronger than you think. If you see  a Senior having inappropriate congress with a Cadet, we may ignore it, thinking that its not our job to interfere, but if you scream for help, literally, scream, any healthy adults' lower brain functions will light up like a Christmas tree, and they will come running to help a child. It's in our programming.  Of course, its possible that there are no mentally healthy or normal Senior Members in your units, but statistically the odds are on your side. No cadet should stand by and watch another cadet being maltreated either ( Ancient Hebrew philosophy says  "thou shalt not stand idly by the blood of they brother" take this to heart. One cadet is just one cadet, but a flight can be a pack of wild beasts. Fortunately, immediate events are rare.

The second, or "delayed" category is the one that best fits the problem of the ignorant and arrogant ( how often these two qualities go together!) Commander. First,  your commander (in your case, the Deputy Commander for Cadets) should be notified in written memoranda form, of the problem, and the applicable  regulations (in your opinion, you could be wrong) supporting your belief that the actions, policies, or practices of the Commander are counter to regulation. Keep in mind, that Commanders do enjoy a fairly broad scope of leeway in the operation of their squadron or unit.

If there is no action within a reasonable time frame, advise the CD-C that you are going to pursue the question. If its a really bad thing, you can directly file an I.G. complaint in any form or mode, telephone, e-mail, etc. and they have a regulatory responsibility to take a look at the situation to see if the next step, an actual investigation, is warranted. You can expect a written response, although it may take several years. You can contact any level in the command chain all the way up to the President if no one responds, but its best to let the level  who has rejected your complaint know that you are going to go over their heads. You can, at any time, discuss or complain about a problem to an IG or a Chaplain without fear of repercussion. ( Unless you just made up lies to ruin someone, but that's something usually only candidates  for public office or Senior Members do to each other!)

Get used to the idea that regulations may be inherently self-contradicting, and that you may never get a clear answer on questions of Uniform Issues, since in many cases, there are none to give! Just a brief look at Captalk will clearly identify that our understanding of uniform regulations range from ignorance to apathy ( But I don't know and I don't care!) Cadets, we can only hope that you take away from the ambiguity and irrationality of some Seniors, the bleak lessons you will need to survive into adulthood without permanent damage, but I hope you find that most are fine people (Especially Cadet Programs People, Hooah!)

Major Lord

[SPD6696]

 :clap:  Well said, Major Lord.

[bflynn]

I think the right answer is not to alienate yourself from others, not to make others feel bad, learn to give others the benefit of the doubt and learn to tolerate the little things.  No, I'm not perfect on all these either, but that doesn't make them bad ideas.

I also think in this case that we're getting one side of an unbelievably dramatic story.

Oh, and to learn that you don't have to save the world from themselves.

[johnnyb47]

I think the right answer is not to alienate yourself from others, not to make others feel bad, learn to give others the benefit of the doubt and learn to tolerate the little things.  No, I'm not perfect on all these either, but that doesn't make them bad ideas.

I also think in this case that we're getting one side of an unbelievably dramatic story.

Oh, and to learn that you don't have to save the world from themselves.

You first paragraph and single sentence second paragraph seem to contradict each other.
Was that intentional? Not flaming at all..... serious question.
I thought there may be a reason why in one you type that we should give the benefit of the doubt and try not to alienate ourselves from others and then the next seems to read as if you were calling the OP a liar.
Your first paragraph does include the admission that you aren't perfect at the ideals you listed (neither am I) so I thought maybe there was a point I was missing or failed to grasp.
No malice intended.... I just wanted to make sure you typed exactly what you meant.

[bflynn]

You first paragraph and single sentence second paragraph seem to contradict each other.
Was that intentional? Not flaming at all..... serious question.
I thought there may be a reason why in one you type that we should give the benefit of the doubt and try not to alienate ourselves from others and then the next seems to read as if you were calling the OP a liar.
Your first paragraph does include the admission that you aren't perfect at the ideals you listed (neither am I) so I thought maybe there was a point I was missing or failed to grasp.
No malice intended.... I just wanted to make sure you typed exactly what you meant.

You're reading more into it than was intended.

It isn't necessary to call someone a liar in order to say that we're getting one side of a story.  There was a great deal of drama and emotion involved over something that is essentially a disagreement over what the word "may" means - whether it is inclusive or exclusive. 

Therefore I maintain an open mind over actual facts.  I know that is against CAP culture, but I do it anyway.

[johnnyb47]

I thought so... but this line:

I also think in this case that we're getting one side of an unbelievably dramatic story.

threw me off a bit.
Thanks for clarifying.