You guys are going to LOVE this...

[Extremepredjudice]

Ok, so my squadron had a FTX which 2 other squadrons attended.

At this FTX, ny squadron's commander decides to wear a boonie hat (he has been telling everyone their are authorized for BDUs for months). Instantly, all the cadet NCOs/officers notice and start grumbling, but no one corrects him, because he is a SM.

Shortly after this, a cadet starts wearing a boonie hat, and again all the NCOs and officers notice it. Now, some of the cadet officers and NCOs are from different squadrons.

After some discussion, I'm the guy to go and correct him, because he was in my flight (I was flight sergeant for the weekend. An officer from a different squadron intervened, and gave me the position. Otherwise it would've been my usual element member). I walk over, ask him to speak with me privately, and I told him "A boonie hat is not authorized. Can you please go put your patrol cap back on?" the cadet insisted I was wrong. So I replied "even if I an wrong, can you do me the favor of just wearring your patrol cap?" he grumplily says fine, and so I walked off, planning to check on it in 5 minutes. About a minute after I walk off, his dad (a SM) comes roarring out of nowhere and starts trying to rip me a new one, telling me "I was wrong" "I didn't know anything" and wouldn't let me get a word in edgewise. He did this in front of EVERYONE. I finally was able to tell "Sir, I respectfully disagree. I beleive they are not authorized with BDUs. HOWEVER, boonie hats ARE authorized for Blue BDUS, perhaps, sir, you mistakenly thought it meant with bdus?" (then I pointed out what BBDUs looked like. A SM was wearing them, so I just pointed tohim). Then he says "so when the squadron commander was wearing a boonie cap, he was against regs?" me:"yessir" He then proceeded to say "are you calling me a liar?" I said "no, I believe you may have been mistaken, sir." and he then stormed off.

About two hours later, he stops me aside again and says "I looked up if boonie caps are authorized, and I couldn't find it, but it is there! I spoke to SM HMRS GRADUATE, and he says they are authorized for extended outdoor operations, and the squadron commander could authorize them" (which the first half is pretty much what the ICL authorizing them for BBDUs says) I came back with "Sir, boonie caps are authorized for wear with the BBDUs only. The only headgear a squadron commander can authorize is a ball cap." He said something like "So SM HMRS GRADUATE is wrong?" me: "I believe he may have made a mistake in reading the regulations." The SM that was yelling at me, rolls his eyes and turns aways.

Now I know he is going to dogpile (him and his friends) me at our next meeting (no meeting this week, so next week). So I ask you CapTalk, what would you do in my situation? At this point, I might as well not stay in CAP. The only people that had the guts to stand up to the SM with me, where from other squadrons. All the cadets from my squadron were to afraid.

I am thinking about printing the appropriate areas of the regulations, and using them if they try to dogpile me.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

That is exactly what you should do. Take the regs and show them what you have read. Just keep cool and remain respectful and tactful.

[titanII]

Just keep cool and remain respectful and tactful.

This. When you're trying to prove somebody wrong, being respectful and keeping your cool is HUGE.
Bring the regs to back yourself up. They can't argue with the regs.

[Nathan]

Don't quit CAP over this tomfoolery. From what I read, you handled everything as you should have.

If you keep getting harrassed about this issue, take it up the chain of command and get them to lay off.

[Cool Mace]

Do exactly what the other 2 said. Be respectful, keep your cool (you have no reason to get upset about this) and bring the reg to back you up.

[MSG Mac]

Tell Lt C that the regulations are clear, BDU Cap or Baseball Cap. BBDU says no required headgear, but if you must Blue BDU cap or Baseball.

Too many people are qouting Regs that they haven't bothered to read.

[Extremepredjudice]

It was LT. K. That was the one going after me. But Lt. C. was wearing it originally.


I am not considering quiting CAP after this incident alone. I am considering after tons of stuff like this. I thought about starting my own squadron. I even had a meeting place set up and a huge amount of funding (my college offered us 3 class rooms, spare computers and money, they tried for a ROTC program, but got denied, so CAP sounded good to them...), and I tried to talk to group, but they never responded. I'd transfer squadrons, but I can't spend that much on gas every week.

So I'm stuck. I am almost an officer, and my position in the squadron: element member. Previous position: element leader, but was removed after a month.

The only leadership position I've held, was flight sergeant for 3 days at this FTX. And my squadron didn't even give that spot willingly. A c/officer from a different squadron intervened and told my squadron's C/cc to put me in charge of a flight.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Cadet, you have done nothing wrong...much less anything worthy of getting "dogpiled" on or quitting CAP.

That "are you calling me a liar?" shtick is, to me, used when the person being challenged knows s/he doesn't have a leg to stand on.

I don't think there is anyone on this board who hasn't gotten frustrated with the vagaries of 39-1, but I see absolutely no reason for the kind of behaviour you encountered.  It is unprofessional, childish, and not befitting a CAP officer.

It's probably starting to sound like a broken record (and vinyl's coming back, so don't tell me you don't know what that means! ), but the best thing you can do, as a barometer of YOUR conduct, is exactly what the others have said.  Don't pop a gasket; it's not worth it.  Keep your military bearing.  Present all your arguments directly from the regs.  I once had a cadet commander tell me that since he was a cadet officer (he'd just pinned on second looie) he was entitled to wear the flight cap with officer braid, when that is not authorised by regs.  I then proceeded to show him the reg dealing with that.  He wasn't very happy with me but there wasn't a lot he could do.  I could have just said "take it off because I know I'm right and you are not in a position to disobey my orders," but that just would have made me look like a tin-pot dictator wannabe and the cadet wouldn't have learned anything from it.  Keep your cool.

Keep us posted on how it's going.  Remember, at the end of the day, you are the one who has to live with your actions...you cannot change the way others will behave, but you have a lot of control over your reactions.

[AngelWings]

This is a true sign of leadership. Do not leave CAP because of someone else's stupidity in handling a rather miniscule matter. Others have given you great adivce, and follow it. Man, I wish I knew more people who are willing to stick up to a Senior Member like this (and no, I am not being sarcastic, I truely believe this is an amazing thing and that you deserve respect because you didn't back down just because of someones power over you.)

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Just don't forget the ICL that does include the boonie hat for the BBDUs. That way you can show them that you know the boonie is authorized for the BBDU, just not the AF style BDU.

[lordmonar]

Now I know he is going to dogpile (him and his friends) me at our next meeting (no meeting this week, so next week). So I ask you CapTalk, what would you do in my situation? At this point, I might as well not stay in CAP. The only people that had the guts to stand up to the SM with me, where from other squadrons. All the cadets from my squadron were to afraid.

I am thinking about printing the appropriate areas of the regulations, and using them if they try to dogpile me.

I would not do anything about it.

You are right and he is wrong.....so you continue to be respectful and enforce the rules.
If Mr. SM comes down on you again....you send him to your squadron commander.
If you really want him to get his butt ripped....send him to me.......I'll explain everything that he did wrong in fine detail.

From your account it seems you did everything right.  Good Job cadet.

[lordmonar]

I would not be lugging around the regulations.....it is not necessary.

First....if the SM thought you were wrong.....then he should have just proceeded and ignored you.  He's a SM for FSM's sake!
Second.....while it is handy to have the regs for when you need them.....it is just too comperson to stop and check the regs every 5 minutes.
Third......even if boonies were authorised.....it's your flight....you choose the head gear.

Finally......don't worry about the dog pile.  Let your commander know what happened.....any bad things that are going to happen...will have to go through him....and protecting your own is part of a supervisor's job.

[Extremepredjudice]

If Mr. SM comes down on you again....you send him to your squadron commander.

Sir, our squadron commander originally said boonie hats are ok. So telling him a SM told me they weren't authorized wouldn't do much. He thinks they are.

[Eclipse]

Increasingly I am moving to a posture of "If I have command authority over a situation, I correct it immediately, and if not, I erect a "SEPF" around it, make notes, and let people look like goobers if they want to..." (as long as it's not a safety issue).

People who are highly effective in their mission execution, but do their own thing, tend to be tolerated like Hawkeye Pierce, to a certain point, and those who perform poorly and ignore the little rules, tend to get marginalized.

Either way the "Grande Scheme^®" works.

[Extremepredjudice]

Sir, what does SEPF mean? Google only comes up with "Scottish Eightball Pool Federation," which I doubt is what you meant...

[Pylon]

ExtremePrejudice, don't quit CAP.  High-speed cadets with a sense of integrity and even tact are the kind of cadets we need more of in the organization.  You handled the situation fine and probably did it with more tact than most would.   If the situation at your home unit becomes untenable to bear or just downright hostile, you should explore other opportunities within CAP.


I can tell you first-hand that starting a squadron is not easy.  It takes a lot of work between meetings.  It sounds like you have a huge resource (in terms of provided classroom and meeting space and some start-up funding) which is half of the battle in getting a unit off the ground.  Your biggest challenge should you look into it will be to get interested, dedicated, qualified members.  You'll need minimum of 2 senior members (but realistically, you'll want more like 4 or 5 because of the workload).  You'll also need to find people interested in being cadets — if you can show the Wing that you have handfuls of people at this college who would become members, you've demonstrated interest and the need for the unit.  If you do some informal recruiting/asking around and don't find a lot of people who would sign up for CAP, it may not float in the long run.  YMMV.  It's do-able.  I successfully started up a squadron with just me (while I was simultaneously running another floundering squadron I had been given charge of) and two brand-new-to-CAP senior members.

[Eclipse]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somebody_Else's_Problem

[Major Lord]

I apologize on behalf of all SM's and I am irritated and disheartened that any SM would stand by and watch a SM "go postal" on a cadet, regs notwithstanding. Being a Cadet requires actual commitment, but being a Senior Member does not require much more than a set of fingerprints, a check, and watching a few power point slides. Any SM watching that should have stepped in to calm things down, and any SM with a kid in the program should mind his own (darn) business with any problem that concerns his kid. Eventually, karmic justice will prevail, and someone will stuff your impulse -control challenged Senior in a trash can.

Major Lord

[EMT-83]

With age comes the ability to better pick one's battles.

In the end, it's a stupid hat that the commander said was okay to wear. Was it really worth the trouble to prove him wrong?

[Eclipse]

I apologize on behalf of all SM's and I am irritated and disheartened that any SM would stand by and watch a SM "go postal" on a cadet, regs notwithstanding. Being a Cadet requires actual commitment, but being a Senior Member does not require much more than a set of fingerprints, a check, and watching a few power point slides. Any SM watching that should have stepped in to calm things down, and any SM with a kid in the program should mind his own (darn) business with any problem that concerns his kid. Eventually, karmic justice will prevail, and someone will stuff your impulse -control challenged Senior in a trash can.

I gotta go with Lord on this piece of the story, and SEPF aside, I think you handled it properly, especially if the cadet was in your chain and this senior
wasn't.

[Extremepredjudice]

With age comes the ability to better pick one's battles.

In the end, it's a stupid hat that the commander said was okay to wear. Was it really worth the trouble to prove him wrong?

Sir, put yourself in my shoes. You are in charge of a flight. Other squadrons are there (Including C/NCOs and C/officers).

How does it make your squadron and your leadership look when someone has unauthorized uniform items on? It makes us look like a bunch of idiots.

Yes, I could have ignored it, but ignoring it reflects badly on me as a senior NCO and reflects just as badly on our squadron.

, I think you handled it properly, especially if the cadet was in your chain and this senior
wasn't.

The SM was miles away from my CoC. He didn't have any sort of position at the FTX Edit: Sorry I just remembered, he actually was asst. safety.

[Майор Хаткевич]

EP.

Having been a "firebrand" cadet on some issues myself, I know I would have landed in the same situation you have.

Like others said, you do NOT and should not have to quit. In fact, we need more cadets like you.

Bring the regs. Bring the latest consolidated ICL. Don't bring it up unless it comes up. If you get called into a discussion about it, you tell the Deputy Commander of Cadets or the Squadron Commander (and maybe a Leadership Officer) what happened. If the same SMs are the people talking, politely tell them that you will ONLY discuss this with the officers listed above. Most likely they will go away right then. If not they are fools.

As a cadet in a leadership position, you did everything right. If the SM did in fact yell at you and say even SOME of the things you listed, I'd expect at least an apology and at most would LOVE to see them get the boot.

[Major Lord]

Lt's are expected to do stupid things, we don't boot them for stupidity. Were we to do so, we  would be a much smaller organization! A little private counseling is the remedy of choice. Wall-to wall if required.

Major Lord

[Майор Хаткевич]

Lt's are expected to do stupid things, we don't boot them for stupidity. Were we to do so, we  would be a much smaller organization! A little private counseling is the remedy of choice. Wall-to wall if required.

Major Lord

Adults are expected to act like adults. The [don't want to say it] wouldn't come up to another student in his kids school and do that. Chances are he'd be leaving the school property in handcuffs.

This is why I'm always weary of the child/parent sign ups. Most are ok, but some are helo pilots to the max.

[ZigZag911]

The fascinating point here is that the agitated SM kept mentioning that the other officer in question was "HMRS Honor Graduate"...while many of their uniform items have been authorized in recent years, for DECADES Hawk Mtn. was famous throughout CAP for wearing badges and such forbidden by CAP regs (usually on the strength of "PA WG CC said it's OK!").

So HMRS is hardly a shining example of adhering to (or perhaps even knowing!) the fine points of uniform rules!

[EMT-83]

With age comes the ability to better pick one's battles.

In the end, it's a stupid hat that the commander said was okay to wear. Was it really worth the trouble to prove him wrong?

Sir, put yourself in my shoes. You are in charge of a flight. Other squadrons are there (Including C/NCOs and C/officers).

How does it make your squadron and your leadership look when someone has unauthorized uniform items on? It makes us look like a bunch of idiots.

Yes, I could have ignored it, but ignoring it reflects badly on me as a senior NCO and reflects just as badly on our squadron.

Yes, you are in charge of the flight. However, your boss has made his decision. It is not your responsibility to issue instructions counter to his. Except for a blatant safety issue, it's time to keep your mouth shut.

Sorry, that's life. When you get to be the boss, you can call the shots.

Incidentally, I had a similar incident occur at a Wing-wide SAREX being run out of my squadron. One of my members, not in compliance with grooming standards, appeared in BDUs and a boonie hat.

This guy has worn BBDUs and a patrol cap ever since he joined. When does he pull this nonsense? The day that the Wing Commander, Chief of Staff and State Director are in the building. Ouch.

I handled it, and quickly. Still can't believe what I saw walk in the door.

[davedove]

Just as a point of accuracy, although I think most will call it the Blue BDU uniform, it is officially called the CAP Field Uniform, per CAPM 39-1.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The fascinating point here is that the agitated SM kept mentioning that the other officer in question was "HMRS Honor Graduate"...while many of their uniform items have been authorized in recent years, for DECADES Hawk Mtn. was famous throughout CAP for wearing badges and such forbidden by CAP regs (usually on the strength of "PA WG CC said it's OK!").

So HMRS is hardly a shining example of adhering to (or perhaps even knowing!) the fine points of uniform rules!

Yes.  Why the emphasis on this joker being a HMRS alum?  I am singularly unimpressed when people try to throw stuff like that in my face.  To me they're just another CAP member, and if they're senior in rank to me I pay them that respect, and if they're junior in rank to me, they would do well not to try and say "because I'm a HMRS alum, I can disregard what you say."

An HMRS alum's biological byproducts stink just as bad as anyone else's.

[bflynn]

Any SM watching that should have stepped in to calm things down, and any SM with a kid in the program should mind his own (darn) business with any problem that concerns his kid.

Yes, it's unbelievable that anyone would stand by while a SM berated a cadet in such a hostile manner.  It's completely counter to what I've seen. 

Is it possible you've heard only one side of the story?

[SPD6696]

If you expect to get dogpiled, I certainly would be prepared with hardcopies of the pertinent regs.  I had a similar situation regarding blue cords and discs in the Army, and had a copy of 670-1, and used it to my advantage.

I find it pathetic that someone would behave in the manner that a SM did to you.  Bullying is bullying, regardless of the setting or how it is done.  Personally, I think that person owes you an apology, topic notwithstanding, for behaving in an unprofessional manner.

As a parent, I would have a problem with this.  I tend to stay out of CAP business that my kid is involved in, however, from past experiences, I am very aware that not everyone in whatever organization is professional, and, oversight systems can fail.  Senior Members can also be wrong.  I believe I put it in another thread, but, at one of my kids meetings, when I was dropping him off, I saw SM, a new Lt, wearing a goatee with his AF style blues.  Not acceptable, but, not my problem.

You are always going to have people that pooch it.  The best you can do, until you are the man in charge, is to keep yourself squared away, those under your command squared away, and protect yourself.  It sounds like, from your posts, this is what you were trying to do. 

[bflynn]

I doubt anyone is going to get dogpiled.  Go back and read the description carefully.

Props to the cadet for standing up for the regulations.

Negs to him for picking a a bad fight, essentially against the squadron commander who apparently authorized the hat.  Cadet vs Squadron Commander?  Even if you win, you lose.

Ok, what would have been better - raise enough confrontation so that you've used what little authority you have to express what's important to you.  Airman, that hat isn't authorized, please put your patrol cap back on (except...it was authorized, just not properly?).

That's it.  If a SM "gets in your face" you smile and thank him for his input.  You don't argue with them.

Ultimately, you can't change the world.  You can't even really change your corner of it because you cannot take responsibility for someone else's action.  If they're wrong and the Squadron Commander is wrong, your choice is to invoke the wrath of God and call someone higher or just grit your teeth and let it go.  When you're the commander, you can make the call. 

You have to choose how YOU react to something. You can't force someone else's reaction.  Let go of the illusion of control and see how that works.

Brian

[Майор Хаткевич]

Or, you know, in the world of adults the Commander looks at the regulations he knows he has to abide by, thanks the cadet, and reprimands the SM who crossed some lines.

[johnnyb47]

"even if I an wrong, can you do me the favor of just wearring your patrol cap?"

:clap:

I really like how this is said.
"We DO have a misunderstanding of the regulations. Either the person who authorized it for wear is wrong or I am wrong. Until we determine which is true would you please wear the item that we all KNOW for sure is authorized?"

As a SM if you came to ME with a similar request in regard to one of the uniform items I was wearing at that event I would have agreed.
Further, my sons are both in CAP. If either one of them came crying to me about the hat discussion I would have said, "I'm not your dad. My advice is to comply with the request then seek clarification on the uniform items authorization after the event via your CoC and the regulations."
I give my sons no preferential treatment in either direction.

[SPD6696]

I doubt anyone is going to get dogpiled.  Go back and read the description carefully.

I DID read it carefully.  The Cadet typed this. 

"Now I know he is going to dogpile (him and his friends) me at our next meeting (no meeting this week, so next week). So I ask you CapTalk, what would you do in my situation? At this point, I might as well not stay in CAP. The only people that had the guts to stand up to the SM with me, where from other squadrons. All the cadets from my squadron were to afraid.
I am thinking about printing the appropriate areas of the regulations, and using them if they try to dogpile me."

From his account of the incident, and I am basing my assessment on that account, since there isn't a second account (taking the Cadet at his word), it sounds like there is an issue with the SM leadership in the squadron.  I'm not going to poopoo it and take the position of, "Well, we haven't heard both sides of the story."  The Cadet posted, explaining the incident, and asking advice.   So, there is a Commander breaking the rules.  There is a SM throwing a tantrum when his son, a Cadet, is corrected by a ranking Cadet, and then bullying said Cadet.  There is a FEAR on the part of the Cadet, or Cadets, of a SM, or multiple SMs.  There appears to be a click of SMs that is so apparent that this Cadet is gearing up to deal with it, and is even considering getting out of CAP.  The Cadet described how he handled it, and it was reasonable and correct. 

Some may not think this is a big deal, but, I do.  When you have a program like CAP that prides itself on being a positive experience for Cadets, and a place of safety, with the tight Cadet welfare regs and training, but a Cadet is AFRAID of a SM, or multiple members, I see a problem.  I think the SMs in the unit owe it to the Cadet to act correctly and appropriately, and to set an example by following regulations.

[Major Lord]

If Cadets knew how much power they had, just by claiming that they had been "abused" by a Senior Member, they could shut down every activity they attend!  Once a Cadet rings this bell, it is almost impossible, by regulation, to un-ring it.  Local commanders have very little leeway once that "911" call has been placed. The butt chewing of the Cadet in this case was a bad thing, but it sounds like he handled it with appropriate restraint.

The larger question, is, once a cadet is confronted by a Command or Command Chain that requires he/she to tolerate something they know is not permitted, or worse, specifically prohibited by regulations, what are their options? Does the average cadet know how to go through, or if necessary, outside, their own chain of command? Cadets, guess what? Senior Members frequently have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to Cadet Programs...this has probably been a shock to you......They will rely on what they may have learned in the military, the Boy Scouts, or what business refers to as "Best Practices", none of which will directly correlate with the CAP regs or mindset, or culture.

So, lets divide irregular senior member activity into two distinct categories: Immediate, and delayed. An example of an immediate violation might be a Senior member attacking a Cadet ( or vice-verse, I have seen it happen with my own eyes), ordering you to attack a grizzly bear, with a number 2 pencil, or offering to spank Cadet Bambi for her bad-girl behavior. If no Senior steps in, call 911, do not pass go, do not collect $200.00. I think you will find that the "herd Instinct in adults is much stronger than you think. If you see  a Senior having inappropriate congress with a Cadet, we may ignore it, thinking that its not our job to interfere, but if you scream for help, literally, scream, any healthy adults' lower brain functions will light up like a Christmas tree, and they will come running to help a child. It's in our programming.  Of course, its possible that there are no mentally healthy or normal Senior Members in your units, but statistically the odds are on your side. No cadet should stand by and watch another cadet being maltreated either ( Ancient Hebrew philosophy says  "thou shalt not stand idly by the blood of they brother" take this to heart. One cadet is just one cadet, but a flight can be a pack of wild beasts. Fortunately, immediate events are rare.

The second, or "delayed" category is the one that best fits the problem of the ignorant and arrogant ( how often these two qualities go together!) Commander. First,  your commander (in your case, the Deputy Commander for Cadets) should be notified in written memoranda form, of the problem, and the applicable  regulations (in your opinion, you could be wrong) supporting your belief that the actions, policies, or practices of the Commander are counter to regulation. Keep in mind, that Commanders do enjoy a fairly broad scope of leeway in the operation of their squadron or unit.

If there is no action within a reasonable time frame, advise the CD-C that you are going to pursue the question. If its a really bad thing, you can directly file an I.G. complaint in any form or mode, telephone, e-mail, etc. and they have a regulatory responsibility to take a look at the situation to see if the next step, an actual investigation, is warranted. You can expect a written response, although it may take several years. You can contact any level in the command chain all the way up to the President if no one responds, but its best to let the level  who has rejected your complaint know that you are going to go over their heads. You can, at any time, discuss or complain about a problem to an IG or a Chaplain without fear of repercussion. ( Unless you just made up lies to ruin someone, but that's something usually only candidates  for public office or Senior Members do to each other!)

Get used to the idea that regulations may be inherently self-contradicting, and that you may never get a clear answer on questions of Uniform Issues, since in many cases, there are none to give! Just a brief look at Captalk will clearly identify that our understanding of uniform regulations range from ignorance to apathy ( But I don't know and I don't care!) Cadets, we can only hope that you take away from the ambiguity and irrationality of some Seniors, the bleak lessons you will need to survive into adulthood without permanent damage, but I hope you find that most are fine people (Especially Cadet Programs People, Hooah!)

Major Lord

[SPD6696]

 :clap:  Well said, Major Lord.

[bflynn]

I think the right answer is not to alienate yourself from others, not to make others feel bad, learn to give others the benefit of the doubt and learn to tolerate the little things.  No, I'm not perfect on all these either, but that doesn't make them bad ideas.

I also think in this case that we're getting one side of an unbelievably dramatic story.

Oh, and to learn that you don't have to save the world from themselves.

[johnnyb47]

I think the right answer is not to alienate yourself from others, not to make others feel bad, learn to give others the benefit of the doubt and learn to tolerate the little things.  No, I'm not perfect on all these either, but that doesn't make them bad ideas.

I also think in this case that we're getting one side of an unbelievably dramatic story.

Oh, and to learn that you don't have to save the world from themselves.

You first paragraph and single sentence second paragraph seem to contradict each other.
Was that intentional? Not flaming at all..... serious question.
I thought there may be a reason why in one you type that we should give the benefit of the doubt and try not to alienate ourselves from others and then the next seems to read as if you were calling the OP a liar.
Your first paragraph does include the admission that you aren't perfect at the ideals you listed (neither am I) so I thought maybe there was a point I was missing or failed to grasp.
No malice intended.... I just wanted to make sure you typed exactly what you meant.

[bflynn]

You first paragraph and single sentence second paragraph seem to contradict each other.
Was that intentional? Not flaming at all..... serious question.
I thought there may be a reason why in one you type that we should give the benefit of the doubt and try not to alienate ourselves from others and then the next seems to read as if you were calling the OP a liar.
Your first paragraph does include the admission that you aren't perfect at the ideals you listed (neither am I) so I thought maybe there was a point I was missing or failed to grasp.
No malice intended.... I just wanted to make sure you typed exactly what you meant.

You're reading more into it than was intended.

It isn't necessary to call someone a liar in order to say that we're getting one side of a story.  There was a great deal of drama and emotion involved over something that is essentially a disagreement over what the word "may" means - whether it is inclusive or exclusive. 

Therefore I maintain an open mind over actual facts.  I know that is against CAP culture, but I do it anyway.

[johnnyb47]

I thought so... but this line:

I also think in this case that we're getting one side of an unbelievably dramatic story.

threw me off a bit.
Thanks for clarifying.

[bflynn]

There's other history that you're missing...

[johnnyb47]

There's other history that you're missing...

So... are you guys, like.... FAMILY or something?

[Extremepredjudice]

Update: After tonight, I have decided, no more CAP. Or at least no more of my squadron.


The wing commander showed up to give our squadron an award. So I requested to speak with him in private about what happened at the FTX. I had a document that outlined it, so I gave it to the Wing commander, and he took it, and requested an electronic copy.

After this glimmer of hope, the squadron commander pulls me into another room with another SM. He starts trying to force me to tell him what I talked to the colonel about, and I refused, citing whistleblower policy and protected communications (OK so it DOESN'T technically apply, but I couldn't get in contact with the IG when I tried to before about another issue). He continues with "If you try to transfer I am going to deny your request," so I stood up and said "Sir, I would like my parent present for the conversation," (my mother was in the meeting room) and walked towards the door to get my mother. The squadron commander comes back with "If you leave I am going to start the paperwork on your termination." I stood there for like 10 seconds like  and I finally said "I believe I should have my PARENT with me." and left the room.

30 seconds later I am back with my mother, and the squadron commander changed the whole thing into me being disrespectful, snippy, and had a poor attitude. The squadron commander tried to railroad his point across and only let me respond a few times. We didn't resolve anything and everything I or my mother tried to bring up or say he'd basically ignore and continue with his tirade. He even claimed I was rude to this cadet SET from another squadron. I don't believe I was, but if I hypothetically was, that cadet would've let me know. And the cadet definitly wouldn't have talked to me for 3 hours (excluding when we had work to do..[we were both mission base staff during that time]) at a SAREX me and him were at.

I tried to bring all of my complaints up, but he basically made up stuff against it. In example, I wanted to know why I was still an element member, even though my rank is SMSgt? He told me it was because I needed to be a follower, and blamed it on the C/CC. Who, coincidentally, told me earlier in the meeting he wanted to change the CoC, but couldn't because of the squadron commander. Who to believe?

He also tried to give me some line of BS about how if we got a squadron website the site would have to connect to an air force server (Can someone empirically debunk this?).

At this point I don't care. I guess I'll transfer squadrons, file an IG complaint, and since the other squadron is to far away, I won't be able to attend any meetings. I'll just go to SAREXs. Basically remain active on the group, wing, and nat'l level, but never anything at a squadron. I guess I am going to have to give up my dreams on being a Spaatz cadet, no squadron meetings, no promotions.

Bflynn, I wouldn't believe myself if I wasn't there. If someone told me these stories, I would doubt them. That said, the point of my posting this was to get feedback, which is what I need. Be cynical, but accept the story on a hypothetical level and respond appropriately. It seriously is a drama filled saga, though.

[CAP4117]

EP,
It sounds to me like this confrontation had much less to do with what happened at the SAREX and more to do with issues that had been present for awhile. There are clearly some major problems here, and it's hard to say more than that, not knowing any more about the situation. I understand that you were upset, and it sounds like you had reason to be, but IMHO going straight to the Wing Commander with this may have made things worse in the long run, especially if you didn't make an attempt to solve it at the squadron level first (I wasn't sure from your post whether you did or not). Putting that aside, though, I don't think you should quit CAP over this, or give up any dreams of being a Spaatz cadet. Here on CT, you have demonstrated your dedication to the program, and that's really important. Driven and motivated cadets like you keep this program running. And, the damages may not be irreparable at your squadron. I guess my advice is don't make any quick decisions that you might regret later. Other people with more CAP experience probably have better advice for you, just my two cents.

[PA Guy]

Based on all of your posts here on Cap Talk I get the impression you fancy yourself quite the barracks room lawyer and smarter than the avg. bear and combined that comes across as arrogance.  Going to the Wing CC over a wardrobe issue!  Give me a break.  I think most of your problems are of your own making.  Stop trying to show everyone how smart you think your are.  And remember there are always two sides to every story and we are only hearing yours. 

[Brad]

He also tried to give me some line of BS about how if we got a squadron website the site would have to connect to an air force server (Can someone empirically debunk this?).

CAPR 110-1 makes no mention of CAP websites being forced to be hosted on an Air Force server. The only thing that is addressed is specific point items as to what defines CAP Internet Operations, and who is the issuing authority for cap.gov and capnhq.gov domains.

a.  CAP Internet Operation. Any activity operated or conducted through the Internet  if: 1) such operations make use  of a  domain name registered or assigned to Civil Air  Patrol, including, but not limited to, CAP.GOV or CAPNHQ.GOV or 2)  use is made of the name "Civil  Air Patrol"  or its insignia, copyrights, emblems  and badges, descriptive or designating marks and words used in carrying out its program which name and marks are specifically owned by Civil Air Patrol pursuant to 36 United States Code § 206.

4. Approval To Conduct CAP  Internet Operation.  CAP units presently involved with or desiring to be involved with a CAP internet operation must obtain approval for such operations as follows: a) for CAP.GOV domain delegations or any other CAP internet operations, approval must be provided by either the National Commander or the applicable region or wing commander or their designee. b) for CAPNHQ.GOV domain  delegations, approval must be provided by the CAP Executive Director, or designee. 5. Withdrawal of Approval. Approval to conduct  a CAP internet operation may be withdrawn, at any time, as follows: a) for CAP.GOV domain delegations or other CAP internet operations, by either the National Commander or the appropriate region or wing commander or their designee; b) for CAPNHQ.GOV domain delegations,  by the CAP Executive Director or designee; c.) any withdrawal of approval  may be appealed to the next higher echelon commander (or NEC or National Board, if withdrawal is made by the Executive Director or National Commander) whose decision shall be final.  6.  Identification. CAP internet operations involving web pages must set forth the name "Civil Air Patrol" and immediately thereafter identify the name of the sponsoring unit on the main page of the site. CAP internet operations involving e-mail, chat
groups,  bulletin boards, list-servers or similar communications  must include the name of the person involved in the communication and, as applicable, their CAP rank or CAP position  of employment.

[NCRblues]

Going to the wing commander was SUCH a bad move. Not only did it make you look bad, but it made the squadron commander and CDC look bad as well for not being able to control a c/SMSGT...

If I was your CDC or commander at the minimum you would get an LOR and a demotion. I would seriously discuss 2b action for your failure to use your chain of command. Having a pre typed letter shows you had intent and this was not done on a teenage spur of the moment whim. You had more than enough time to follow the chain of command. You go to your commander, if you don't like the answer you get; you go to the next level so forth and so on. No where does it say cadet to wing king... Bad move son. Bad move. There are so many levels between you and the wing commander its not even funny and hurts my earballs to think about.

[Extremepredjudice]

Based on all of your posts here on Cap Talk I get the impression you fancy yourself quite the barracks room lawyer and smarter than the avg. bear and combined that comes across as arrogance.  Going to the Wing CC over a wardrobe issue!  Give me a break.  I think most of your problems are of your own making.  Stop trying to show everyone how smart you think your are.  And remember there are always two sides to every story and we are only hearing yours.

I was going to him because I could not get in contact with the wing IG. The reasoning behind it was because of the way the SM came to me (threateningly). Not over the wear of the boonie hat, at this point the boonie hat doesn't matter, what matters is the threatening nature of the SM.

I wasn't trying to jump the CoC. I was trying to get in contact with the wing IG.

Going to the wing commander was SUCH a bad move. Not only did it make you look bad, but it made the squadron commander and CDC look bad as well for not being able to control a c/SMSGT...

If I was your CDC or commander at the minimum you would get an LOR and a demotion. I would seriously discuss 2b action for your failure to use your chain of command. Having a pre typed letter shows you had intent and this was not done on a teenage spur of the moment whim. You had more than enough time to follow the chain of command. You go to your commander, if you don't like the answer you get; you go to the next level so forth and so on. No where does it say cadet to wing king... Bad move son. Bad move. There are so many levels between you and the wing commander its not even funny and hurts my earballs to think about.

The reason I had a pre-typed letter was to give to the squadron commander. The wing commander requested to see it, when I mentioned it. After that he requested to keep it. Yes, I didn't follow CoC. I apoligized about that to both the Wing King and the squadron commander.


The Squadron commander still insists that he can "authorize anything, whether it is a clown hat or a boonie hat."

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

First off, I still do not believe you should leave CAP.

However, I do think you erred greatly in doing an end run around your CC.  No commissioned/warrant officer/NCO likes that, and that extends to CAP officers.  I served as a safety officer for a number of years.  An SE reports directly to the unit CC, and has a great deal of leeway on allowing or disallowing activities based on the SE's assessment of how safe or unsafe it could be.  I know I honked some people off in disallowing some activities.  In one case the cadet commander did an end run around me to the CC, asking him about permission for an activity.  The CC and I had a very good relationship and he said "go ask the Safety Officer."  I was not pleased with what the cadet commander had done, and I let him know about it in no uncertain terms, in the presence of the CC.

The chain of command sometimes does not work to our satisfaction.  In fact, sometimes it sucks.  It is only as good as the people staffing it.  However, it is there for a reason.  Had you used it, even if the results were not favourable to you, your complaint to the wingco would have had a lot more credibility.  It would have shown you know and respect the system, even as mind-burning as it can be sometimes.  If you were in the military, the fallout to your career could be great.  The first thing I remember learning long ago at BMT was the chain of command, from the President down to the MTI.  The MTI's started teaching that before anything else, which should show you how great an emphasis the military puts on it.  I would guess that it is similar in Army, Navy, Marine Corps and Coast Guard basic training.

Despite that, your CC was way off base in saying what he did about a squadron website having to connect to an Air Force server.  I say that as a former IT and hardware technician of 15 years' standing.

Before you gave your written document to the wingco, you should have sat on it for a while.  Often we write/say things in the heat of anger and frustration that we end up wishing we could retract.  BTDT.

I do agree that this has a lot more going on under the surface than what happened at your SAREX, and without having been there to witness it, I cannot make a rational assessment.

I cannot honestly say if the waters in your squadron have been poisoned so badly for you to not be able to continue there...but I also do not see why your CC would disallow your transfer.  If I were in that position, I would recognise that the tension generated is not good for the squadron as a whole.

I cannot advise you on what you should do next, except possibly enlist the aid of a Chaplain as an intermediary between you and the CC.

[lordmonar]

Well.....welcome to life lesson #128.......if you piss off your boss......you are going to pay for it.

I won't question your motives nor your actions.......but this is what we mean about picking your battles.

Now the key is to move on.  Good Luck.

[SPD6696]

"what matters is the threatening nature of the SM"

This.

I couldn't care less about the uniform and stitch-counting drama I see so much of here.  But the described bullying by a SM (who is the parent of the cadet that got corrected by the poster) is completely unacceptable.  And, even if is is a matter of perception, it warrants serious investigation to get to the bottom of it.  The OP may not be the only cadet that has experienced this.  I consider it a warning sign that needs inquiry.

[Extremepredjudice]

Sir, IGs are out of the CoC (at least as far as I know, or did it change?). I merely asked the wing king to deliver a message, since I was not able to get in contact with the wing IG.

[PA Guy]

You just don't get it.  Stop the quibbling and trying to prove how smart you are. 

[CAP4117]

Sir, I understand your frustration but comments like that are not constructive. We all agree it was a mistake to go to the wing commander. I think what this cadet needs right now is some solid guidance about what to do going forward. Demeaning him accomplishes nothing.

[Extremepredjudice]

You just don't get it.  Stop the quibbling and trying to prove how smart you are.

I'm not. I am trying to get advice. Which, apparently, isn't happening. 


Threats are not quibbling. Threats are serious. IT ISN'T ABOUT THE BOONIE HAT. IT IS ABOUT THE THREATENING ATTITUDE OF THE SM.

[SPD6696]

I recall a post made here.  http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=15075.msg271369#msg271369.

The cadet has been confronted with a problem.  Whether he has had problems communicating the actual issue beyond the stupid boonie hat, or, whether some people on here refuse to, or are incapable of, comprehending that, is arguable.  However, you have a cadet that has shared a problem, beyond what color socks a person is wearing, and some on here are attacking him.  How about being adults and steering him in the right direction.

This is CAP.  He is a cadet.  He was bullied by a SM, maybe more, now.  Now, I understand all about the military chain of command, etc.  But, that goes out the window when it comes to youth protection.  In my opinion, youth protection in CAP trumps everything.  I believe that this incident warrants further investigation.  I'm not saying who is right or wrong, but, I am saying that when a youth in this program comes forward, and goes to a person (the wing king) in the organization with a problem, attack and criticism by people on the internet that know nothing more than what he has shared is both irresponsible and ignorant.

[Spaceman3750]

EP,

I think there's some bad attitudes all around with this situation, yours included. I would strongly recommend that you take a step back, relax, and think this through fully. While this was a bad situation from the get-go, you didn't help your position by going around your squadron and group commanders to the wing CC. We don't have both sides of this story, nor the whole picture, so all I can say is that I think this is one situation where your abrasive/caustic (as you once put it) personality has come back to bite you in the butt (I hate to say I told you so, but...). Instead of approaching things with a cool head, you potentially escalated it with a cadet know-it-all attitude and 50 year old men don't tend to respond well to that (BTDT). While their personality is their problem, you have to know how to let things go or use the system correctly.

Hope everything works itself out.

[NCRblues]

I will offer the advice you seem to be asking for.

Your original handling of the "bonnie hat" situation was spot it (if we are to believe your side of the story and your side only).

Your handling of the situation after is less than stellar.

You seem very intelligent. You know how to post on captalk, so I am sure you can look up regulations and guidance on IG complaints. From what I read in your story and IG would not act on this anyway. The SM in question on the first incident (although wrong in his regulatory understanding) did nothing against CPPT or any other protective regulations. You (as my MTI always used to tell us) where "butt hurt" that you knew the rules and someone appointed over you did not. Welcome to life, we deal with this everyday as SM's.

Your handling of that was not anywhere near close, nor is it anywhere near what I expect out of my SNCO cadets. It is immaterial if the wing commander asked for the paper you wrote or not. You asked to speak to him/her privately and then brought up the letter. This was the wrong move, and I am 100% sure you knew this at the time and im 100% sure you know now. Jumping the chain so massively is hardly ever forgiven nor forgotten in CAP or any military style organization. The wing commander does not simply "carry a message" for a cadet of any rank/grade. Thinking this is ok means you did not learn some of the basic principles that the first several leadership chapters where supposed to teach you. Simply put, you should have followed the chain of command.

So, here is my advice. Apologize, to EVERYONE for your handling of the situation. The sooner the better and do it publicly. Yes it will sting your pride, but a 2b or other adverse action is not something you want to carry around with you. Openly say you handled the situation badly, seek forgiveness and reconciliation. Try and close this chapter, make the first step. Those SM's you bypassed are not pleased with you. Be the bigger person, admit your mistakes and for lack of a better term this late at night....grovel.

[PA Guy]

I recall a post made here.  http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=15075.msg271369#msg271369.

The cadet has been confronted with a problem.  Whether he has had problems communicating the actual issue beyond the stupid boonie hat, or, whether some people on here refuse to, or are incapable of, comprehending that, is arguable.  However, you have a cadet that has shared a problem, beyond what color socks a person is wearing, and some on here are attacking him.  How about being adults and steering him in the right direction.

This is CAP.  He is a cadet.  He was bullied by a SM, maybe more, now.  Now, I understand all about the military chain of command, etc.  But, that goes out the window when it comes to youth protection.  In my opinion, youth protection in CAP trumps everything.  I believe that this incident warrants further investigation.  I'm not saying who is right or wrong, but, I am saying that when a youth in this program comes forward, and goes to a person (the wing king) in the organization with a problem, attack and criticism by people on the internet that know nothing more than what he has shared is both irresponsible and ignorant.

The cadet involved is not a fool.  He knows that if he was hazed he can file a CPP complaint.  The senior(s) involved  will be immediately suspended and a formal investigation will ensue.  He had that chance apparently with his Wing CC and chose not to do it or failed to make it clear that he was reporting a CPP violation.  He has not been attacked but offered some real world advice that he requested. 

[AngelWings]

My advice: Take a step back, think your next moves out carefully, and whatever you do, do not make any rash choices. Going to the wing king wasn't the brightest idea, but I'm sure now your problem is well noted. The senior members in question here all sound like they have egos out of this world. As others have said, calm down trying to prove how smart you. The smartest of people know when it is time to keep quiet about themselves. Now, I'm sure everybody involved in this situation is a bit butthurt over trying to prove a point. NOBODY likes to lose an arguement or feel lesser than somebody else. I can see that in you and the senior members you talk about. If they were trying to get you to run your mouth, than you played right in their hands.

A few things to keep in mind:

Politics sometimes is the best policy: You might have to suck up and apologize for anything they disagree about, and make it seem like you learned your lesson and make them, if possible, think you are truely a real man and a great cadet.

"We are soldiers, we shut our mouths and follow orders." (quotations from Ace Combat 5: The Unsung War): Remember your rank and position in the CoC. Again, being right doesn't mean you can make the situation right. I suggest trying to keep what comes out of your mouth to them at a minimal and to follow orders (unless they are unethical/moral).

A show of intelligence is a show of force to the unintelligent: By you undermining your CC, you have put yourself in a position where you seem to be hostile to them. Now, that doesn't mean you were hostile, but simply stated, you went out of your way to show intelligence and are now paying for it (not that I think it is right). Do not try to show extreme intelligence any matter pertaining to your situation again, because it did nothing for you the first time.

Document EVERYTHING: He signed, she signed. If you don't document everything they do wrong, than you're not going to have any proof. The means of documentation should be both written, and if possible and hidden, recorded. If you have proof of their malicious comments and actions, than you can present it to the wing IG.

In closing, this is my 0.02 and I hope this gives some guidance to you.

[EMT-83]

Let's walk through this:

The original problem occurred when you disagreed with the squadron commanders instructions, and issued your own instructions counter to his.

You then got into a verbal altercation with a member from another squadron regarding the same issue. It doesn't sound like you started the altercation, but you sure did participate.

Now, the wing commander shows up to present an award to the squadron. You decide that this is the time and place to push the issue.

Exactly what did you think was going to happen?

[Майор Хаткевич]

Wow guys, come on now.

Going to "The Wing Commander" may be stepping over the Chain of Command, but this is a VOLUNTEER organization where the CoC has failed to protect a cadet from being hazed/insulted/feel uncomfortable when the cadet was in the RIGHT.

"The Wing Commanders", last time I checked, are human beings. I've spoken to a number of my wing kings over my time as a cadet. None of them bit my head off.

Now, I don't know if EP's wing has groups, but I would have tried to take the situation there first before reaching for the wing commander. Then again, the wing commander was AT HIS UNIT, so he had a rare(ish) chance to speak to a person instead of writing an email.

Back when I was a C/MSgt, we had a squadron commander whom a number of us (cadets) felt was doing us a disservice, and stagnating our cadet development. We hatched a plan to go to the Group Commander (after MANY attempts to discuss what we felt were the issues) to get help. One of the cadets decided to back out, told the Commander our plan, and just like that there was a "moratorium on promotions for SIX months". That cadet was the squadron cadet of the year though...

Of course in the end the commander WAS replaced, and from what I learned later on in my CAP career wasn't all that liked by other SMs as well, so I suppose we did have at least SOME legitimate issues. But that didn't stop him from slowing down our promotions (basically until the new commander stepped up), and letting a number of us get the "Chief for Life" attitude (at least for a while). I'm just about SURE that he prevented a number of cadets from reaching for the Spaatz, and at least five newer cadets from even getting their Wright Brothers.

But we were young cadets (14/15), and pretty much EVERYTHING we knew about the program came from self-study and encampment experiences. We certainly didn't think to go to the Group Commander after our self-styled "coup" failed - or anyone else.

So lay off the cadet for trying to get some justice for himself. Maybe not the greatest move, but he did what he felt he needed to do. If it does bite him in the ass at that unit, well that's the life lesson, BUT he does deserve to be treated with respect, even if he was wrong in some part of his actions.

In fact, the actions of the commander after the fact? I would CALL/EMAIL/WRITE the IG that same night. IF his parent was present for even a part of that type of treatment? As CAP I would be shaking in my boots. We don't get nearly enough good publicity, but if someone wanted to, we could get PLENTY of bad publicity.

[Eclipse]

Based on all of your posts here on Cap Talk I get the impression you fancy yourself quite the barracks room lawyer and smarter than the avg. bear and combined that comes across as arrogance.  Going to the Wing CC over a wardrobe issue!  Give me a break.  I think most of your problems are of your own making.  Stop trying to show everyone how smart you think your are.  And remember there are always two sides to every story and we are only hearing yours.

+1

[Major Lord]

I don't think its ever wrong for a Cadet, or anyone else, to report an incident or situation that creates a potential threat to a Member. That being said, taking the opportunity to go to the Wing Commander  in circumstances other than exigent, is stepping on your male anatomy just a bit. Whats done is done. The WC can't ignore it, but you went out of channels when proper channels were available, so be prepared to expect the consequences. I actually like that you are standing up for principals, and that you don't back down just because some Seniors tell you to shut your trap. I regret that you chose to act outside the chain, but it's your judgment call to make about a safety and Cadet Protection issues, and although it would have been better for you to sit on your hands for a day or two and wait until the IG returns your phone call. ( By the way, you can contact I.G's  "upstream" if you can't reach your own, or a Chaplain, who I promise you will not just try to "manage" you) I think you need  to examine whether this is the hill you want to die on. There is a proper way to do this, but sometimes situations force our hand. I actually had to physically bar an Ex-member from entering our Squadron, even after the Wing Commander personally ordered my Commander and I to admit him.....Member who threaten to harm children, and appear to have the actual intent to do so in my opinion, constitutes exigent circumstances. I was aware that I could have been signing my own CAP death warrant at the time, but as long as I have people in my care, they stay that way until they are no longer mine to care for.

Should you quit CAP? Sweet Mother of Buddha no! You handled a situation to the best of your ability and competence, and  you should be prepared to accept the consequences, even if that means eating some crow ( I suggest Garlic Butter or Deep fried in Bisquick, tastes just like spotted owl!) Integrity is doing the right thing even if you know in advance its going to cost you dearly. Has anyone ever explained to you that our own beloved Billy Mitchell ( May he live forever in the Halls of Valhalla!) Was Court Martialed and fed to the dogs? So if you wuss out, we will know that the problem here was you, not CAP. Suck it up soldier! Have some mercy on your poor old Squadron Commander, who may have fallen in with a bad lot and likes to wear french headgear.

Major Lord

[bflynn]

Bflynn, I wouldn't believe myself if I wasn't there. If someone told me these stories, I would doubt them. That said, the point of my posting this was to get feedback, which is what I need. Be cynical, but accept the story on a hypothetical level and respond appropriately. It seriously is a drama filled saga, though.

The drama was of your creation. 

I said in the beginning - you can't pick a fight with your boss and expect to win.  I hope you've learned that.  Even if you win, you've lost.

You follow the CoC.  When you do not, people get upset.  When people get upset they say and do things that they don't normally do and that they don't normally mean.  They say and do things that cause grief.  I hope you've learned that.

C&C aren't just for keeping a sharp uniform and saluting - they are part of a model of discipline that you use to interact so that everyone can interact according to a set of rules.  You restrain yourself when dealing with superiors so that you don't step on someone's toes.

Did everyone behave spot on in this?  No, it doesn't sound like it.  But when there is a problem, start with your own pair of boots and draw progressively larger circles until you find the cause...in other words, start by assuming the cause of the problem lies with yourself and then work outward.

Your path forward - apologize to a number of people, starting with the squadron commander.  Recognize that an apology is an admission of wrong.  You can PM me and email me privately if you'd like a formal structure to follow.  In my experience, apologies do wonders to heal things.  There's no forgetting, there's no undoing it, but at least you can admit that you made a mistake.

Once you do that, a lot of the stress, a lot of the drama goes away. 

When I was 16, I quit playing on the HS soccer team over a stupid argument with the coach and it has had an ongoing impact for me.  I was young and dumb and I made a mistake.  Don't make the same mistake. 

[Perez]

I've been in a very similar situation in the past. As others have said, make every effort that you can to deal with this through the right channels, and remember that you are going to have to make the choices you think are right, regardless of other people's opinions. Just PLEASE don't quit CAP! You said your goal was to earn the Spaatz award? How bad do you want it? Remove yourself from a bad situation if you have to, but don't let one person be the reason that you decide to quit. Best of luck!

[Майор Хаткевич]

snip

That's rubbish. This isn't over the dumb pancake hats,  this is regarding the behavior of SMs, the Squadron Commander included at this point.

The cadet can be the scum of the earth, but until he is a non-member I would expect every cadet and SM (Squadron Commander included) to treat them with respect. That has not happened. Quite honestly if the Squadron Commander responded as outlined then maybe the Wing Commander looking into this will do good not just for EP but for all other Cadets and most likely most SMs as well.

[bflynn]

snip

That's rubbish. This isn't over the dumb pancake hats,  this is regarding the behavior of SMs, the Squadron Commander included at this point.

The cadet can be the scum of the earth, but until he is a non-member I would expect every cadet and SM (Squadron Commander included) to treat them with respect. That has not happened. Quite honestly if the Squadron Commander responded as outlined then maybe the Wing Commander looking into this will do good not just for EP but for all other Cadets and most likely most SMs as well.

I'm sorry, but did I say something that you viewed as non-respectful?  I promise you it isn't there.

At this point I'm talking about healing.  However it got to where it is, there was wrong on both sides.  You can't force someone else to apologize, but you can diffuse the tension by doing it yourself.

I think every SM recognizes this - probably every one of us did or wanted to do something similar when we were young.  We've been there, we know how it is.  We can forgive it, but only if there is a genuine desire to be forgiven. 

In general, it's better to take a deep breadth and just admit that you've messed up, even if you're not the single source of failure.

At this point, it isn't about rag hats, mistakes, people's feelings or even the CoC.  It's about repairing relationships.

Extremepredjudice - my offer to help still stands.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I was talking about how the SMs in the situation acted, not your post bflynn.