You guys are going to LOVE this...

[Extremepredjudice]

Ok, so my squadron had a FTX which 2 other squadrons attended.

At this FTX, ny squadron's commander decides to wear a boonie hat (he has been telling everyone their are authorized for BDUs for months). Instantly, all the cadet NCOs/officers notice and start grumbling, but no one corrects him, because he is a SM.

Shortly after this, a cadet starts wearing a boonie hat, and again all the NCOs and officers notice it. Now, some of the cadet officers and NCOs are from different squadrons.

After some discussion, I'm the guy to go and correct him, because he was in my flight (I was flight sergeant for the weekend. An officer from a different squadron intervened, and gave me the position. Otherwise it would've been my usual element member). I walk over, ask him to speak with me privately, and I told him "A boonie hat is not authorized. Can you please go put your patrol cap back on?" the cadet insisted I was wrong. So I replied "even if I an wrong, can you do me the favor of just wearring your patrol cap?" he grumplily says fine, and so I walked off, planning to check on it in 5 minutes. About a minute after I walk off, his dad (a SM) comes roarring out of nowhere and starts trying to rip me a new one, telling me "I was wrong" "I didn't know anything" and wouldn't let me get a word in edgewise. He did this in front of EVERYONE. I finally was able to tell "Sir, I respectfully disagree. I beleive they are not authorized with BDUs. HOWEVER, boonie hats ARE authorized for Blue BDUS, perhaps, sir, you mistakenly thought it meant with bdus?" (then I pointed out what BBDUs looked like. A SM was wearing them, so I just pointed tohim). Then he says "so when the squadron commander was wearing a boonie cap, he was against regs?" me:"yessir" He then proceeded to say "are you calling me a liar?" I said "no, I believe you may have been mistaken, sir." and he then stormed off.

About two hours later, he stops me aside again and says "I looked up if boonie caps are authorized, and I couldn't find it, but it is there! I spoke to SM HMRS GRADUATE, and he says they are authorized for extended outdoor operations, and the squadron commander could authorize them" (which the first half is pretty much what the ICL authorizing them for BBDUs says) I came back with "Sir, boonie caps are authorized for wear with the BBDUs only. The only headgear a squadron commander can authorize is a ball cap." He said something like "So SM HMRS GRADUATE is wrong?" me: "I believe he may have made a mistake in reading the regulations." The SM that was yelling at me, rolls his eyes and turns aways.

Now I know he is going to dogpile (him and his friends) me at our next meeting (no meeting this week, so next week). So I ask you CapTalk, what would you do in my situation? At this point, I might as well not stay in CAP. The only people that had the guts to stand up to the SM with me, where from other squadrons. All the cadets from my squadron were to afraid.

I am thinking about printing the appropriate areas of the regulations, and using them if they try to dogpile me.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

That is exactly what you should do. Take the regs and show them what you have read. Just keep cool and remain respectful and tactful.

[titanII]

Just keep cool and remain respectful and tactful.

This. When you're trying to prove somebody wrong, being respectful and keeping your cool is HUGE.
Bring the regs to back yourself up. They can't argue with the regs.

[Nathan]

Don't quit CAP over this tomfoolery. From what I read, you handled everything as you should have.

If you keep getting harrassed about this issue, take it up the chain of command and get them to lay off.

[Cool Mace]

Do exactly what the other 2 said. Be respectful, keep your cool (you have no reason to get upset about this) and bring the reg to back you up.

[MSG Mac]

Tell Lt C that the regulations are clear, BDU Cap or Baseball Cap. BBDU says no required headgear, but if you must Blue BDU cap or Baseball.

Too many people are qouting Regs that they haven't bothered to read.

[Extremepredjudice]

It was LT. K. That was the one going after me. But Lt. C. was wearing it originally.


I am not considering quiting CAP after this incident alone. I am considering after tons of stuff like this. I thought about starting my own squadron. I even had a meeting place set up and a huge amount of funding (my college offered us 3 class rooms, spare computers and money, they tried for a ROTC program, but got denied, so CAP sounded good to them...), and I tried to talk to group, but they never responded. I'd transfer squadrons, but I can't spend that much on gas every week.

So I'm stuck. I am almost an officer, and my position in the squadron: element member. Previous position: element leader, but was removed after a month.

The only leadership position I've held, was flight sergeant for 3 days at this FTX. And my squadron didn't even give that spot willingly. A c/officer from a different squadron intervened and told my squadron's C/cc to put me in charge of a flight.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Cadet, you have done nothing wrong...much less anything worthy of getting "dogpiled" on or quitting CAP.

That "are you calling me a liar?" shtick is, to me, used when the person being challenged knows s/he doesn't have a leg to stand on.

I don't think there is anyone on this board who hasn't gotten frustrated with the vagaries of 39-1, but I see absolutely no reason for the kind of behaviour you encountered.  It is unprofessional, childish, and not befitting a CAP officer.

It's probably starting to sound like a broken record (and vinyl's coming back, so don't tell me you don't know what that means! ), but the best thing you can do, as a barometer of YOUR conduct, is exactly what the others have said.  Don't pop a gasket; it's not worth it.  Keep your military bearing.  Present all your arguments directly from the regs.  I once had a cadet commander tell me that since he was a cadet officer (he'd just pinned on second looie) he was entitled to wear the flight cap with officer braid, when that is not authorised by regs.  I then proceeded to show him the reg dealing with that.  He wasn't very happy with me but there wasn't a lot he could do.  I could have just said "take it off because I know I'm right and you are not in a position to disobey my orders," but that just would have made me look like a tin-pot dictator wannabe and the cadet wouldn't have learned anything from it.  Keep your cool.

Keep us posted on how it's going.  Remember, at the end of the day, you are the one who has to live with your actions...you cannot change the way others will behave, but you have a lot of control over your reactions.

[AngelWings]

This is a true sign of leadership. Do not leave CAP because of someone else's stupidity in handling a rather miniscule matter. Others have given you great adivce, and follow it. Man, I wish I knew more people who are willing to stick up to a Senior Member like this (and no, I am not being sarcastic, I truely believe this is an amazing thing and that you deserve respect because you didn't back down just because of someones power over you.)

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Just don't forget the ICL that does include the boonie hat for the BBDUs. That way you can show them that you know the boonie is authorized for the BBDU, just not the AF style BDU.

[lordmonar]

Now I know he is going to dogpile (him and his friends) me at our next meeting (no meeting this week, so next week). So I ask you CapTalk, what would you do in my situation? At this point, I might as well not stay in CAP. The only people that had the guts to stand up to the SM with me, where from other squadrons. All the cadets from my squadron were to afraid.

I am thinking about printing the appropriate areas of the regulations, and using them if they try to dogpile me.

I would not do anything about it.

You are right and he is wrong.....so you continue to be respectful and enforce the rules.
If Mr. SM comes down on you again....you send him to your squadron commander.
If you really want him to get his butt ripped....send him to me.......I'll explain everything that he did wrong in fine detail.

From your account it seems you did everything right.  Good Job cadet.

[lordmonar]

I would not be lugging around the regulations.....it is not necessary.

First....if the SM thought you were wrong.....then he should have just proceeded and ignored you.  He's a SM for FSM's sake!
Second.....while it is handy to have the regs for when you need them.....it is just too comperson to stop and check the regs every 5 minutes.
Third......even if boonies were authorised.....it's your flight....you choose the head gear.

Finally......don't worry about the dog pile.  Let your commander know what happened.....any bad things that are going to happen...will have to go through him....and protecting your own is part of a supervisor's job.

[Extremepredjudice]

If Mr. SM comes down on you again....you send him to your squadron commander.

Sir, our squadron commander originally said boonie hats are ok. So telling him a SM told me they weren't authorized wouldn't do much. He thinks they are.

[Eclipse]

Increasingly I am moving to a posture of "If I have command authority over a situation, I correct it immediately, and if not, I erect a "SEPF" around it, make notes, and let people look like goobers if they want to..." (as long as it's not a safety issue).

People who are highly effective in their mission execution, but do their own thing, tend to be tolerated like Hawkeye Pierce, to a certain point, and those who perform poorly and ignore the little rules, tend to get marginalized.

Either way the "Grande Scheme^®" works.

[Extremepredjudice]

Sir, what does SEPF mean? Google only comes up with "Scottish Eightball Pool Federation," which I doubt is what you meant...

[Pylon]

ExtremePrejudice, don't quit CAP.  High-speed cadets with a sense of integrity and even tact are the kind of cadets we need more of in the organization.  You handled the situation fine and probably did it with more tact than most would.   If the situation at your home unit becomes untenable to bear or just downright hostile, you should explore other opportunities within CAP.


I can tell you first-hand that starting a squadron is not easy.  It takes a lot of work between meetings.  It sounds like you have a huge resource (in terms of provided classroom and meeting space and some start-up funding) which is half of the battle in getting a unit off the ground.  Your biggest challenge should you look into it will be to get interested, dedicated, qualified members.  You'll need minimum of 2 senior members (but realistically, you'll want more like 4 or 5 because of the workload).  You'll also need to find people interested in being cadets — if you can show the Wing that you have handfuls of people at this college who would become members, you've demonstrated interest and the need for the unit.  If you do some informal recruiting/asking around and don't find a lot of people who would sign up for CAP, it may not float in the long run.  YMMV.  It's do-able.  I successfully started up a squadron with just me (while I was simultaneously running another floundering squadron I had been given charge of) and two brand-new-to-CAP senior members.

[Eclipse]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somebody_Else's_Problem

[Major Lord]

I apologize on behalf of all SM's and I am irritated and disheartened that any SM would stand by and watch a SM "go postal" on a cadet, regs notwithstanding. Being a Cadet requires actual commitment, but being a Senior Member does not require much more than a set of fingerprints, a check, and watching a few power point slides. Any SM watching that should have stepped in to calm things down, and any SM with a kid in the program should mind his own (darn) business with any problem that concerns his kid. Eventually, karmic justice will prevail, and someone will stuff your impulse -control challenged Senior in a trash can.

Major Lord

[EMT-83]

With age comes the ability to better pick one's battles.

In the end, it's a stupid hat that the commander said was okay to wear. Was it really worth the trouble to prove him wrong?

[Eclipse]

I apologize on behalf of all SM's and I am irritated and disheartened that any SM would stand by and watch a SM "go postal" on a cadet, regs notwithstanding. Being a Cadet requires actual commitment, but being a Senior Member does not require much more than a set of fingerprints, a check, and watching a few power point slides. Any SM watching that should have stepped in to calm things down, and any SM with a kid in the program should mind his own (darn) business with any problem that concerns his kid. Eventually, karmic justice will prevail, and someone will stuff your impulse -control challenged Senior in a trash can.

I gotta go with Lord on this piece of the story, and SEPF aside, I think you handled it properly, especially if the cadet was in your chain and this senior
wasn't.