CAP Talk

So I needed a replace a few uniform items before a PD course on the weekend of November 20th.   So in the early afternoon of November 5th, I place an order with The Hock for a flight cap, slingshots, blues belt, and a few other small items.  Because frankly, the cost of those items from the Hock is substantially lower than Vanguard.  Since the Hock also offers Free Shipping, it doesn't cost me extra to split up the order and get the cheaper items from him. 


I also place an order with Vanguard for 1 senior member flight cap device, which is showing on the site as "In Stock" and is probably a fairly common item.


So here's what happens next:
Nov 5: (2:20pm) Orders with Vanguard and The Hock placed.
Nov 6: In the afternoon, I am extremely surprised to find my entire Hock order in my mailbox.  Uhm...  Less than 24 hours later.  Extremely surprised.  Granted, I'm in the same geographic region, but that means the order was picked, packed, and shipped within hours.  Bravo zulu.
Nov 12: (1pm)  I realize my Vanguard order hasn't arrived yet.  I check online.  Still shows as "Processing". Fail 1  *grumble* 
Nov 12: (1:15pm) On the Vanguard homepage, I see the bright green "Chat Online" button is lit up, indicating I can chat with a customer service person online.  I click and a chat window opens up and prompts me to type in all my details and my question, which I do.  After waiting about a minute or two, I get a window that says "LIVE CHAT!  Department is unavailable.  Leave a message."   Fail 2.
Nov 12: (3pm) A little later, I find the time to call Vanguard.  I call, ask about my order status, am transferred and a lady looks up my account.  Yup, order still hasn't shipped and won't this week either.  For an in-stock item.  Here's the explanation I get:


VG:  Well, you placed the order after business hours on Friday so it didn't get started until Monday.... and...
Me:  [interrupts]  Uh, no I didn't.  I have the confirmation email right here with a timestamp that says 2:20pm.  And we're in the same time zone.
VG:  Well, yeah.  We don't download orders from the site in the afternoon on Fridays because we leave early.  So if it wasn't in the morning, it won't get downloaded until sometime Monday.
Me:  Helpful to know.  But still, if you downloaded it first thing Monday, why by the end of the entire week is the order still not ready to be shipped for a single-item that is reported to be in stock?   
VG:  We need at least 7 full business days to ship out orders.
Me:  ....
VG:  Anything else I can do for you? 
Me:  .... Fail 3.




I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that taking an online order for something simple, in stock, requiring no customization, and not requiring any special shipping or packaging should take --FOR ANY COMPANY-- at most, maybe 3 business days. 


I can only think of two things that could be causing this, and both of them point to management failures:
1.  The company could be so backed up with orders that they're having a hard time keeping up with the volume, and that's why it's taking 7+ business days just to ship.  If that's the case, they planned poorly for sales projections and are failing to hire additional help (permanent or temps) to meet the sales volume appropriately.


2.  The company's order fulfillment procedure is so incredibly inefficient that it literally takes them 7+ business days to pick, pack, and ship simple in-stock items.  If this is the case, they are grossly mismanaged and need to get some immediate outside help in streamlining their business model.  Not only are they wasting their customer's time and patience, but if #2 is the case, they're likely also wasting all sorts of money on overhead due to inefficiency.


In either case, I'm disappointed.

It just seems so darn hit and miss with them. You have a very simple order that should have shipped right away that hasn't even shipped yet, a week later. I have had slightly more complex orders that have taken less than 7 days to my doorstep. I don't understand why.

Before I was laid off, I worked at  a distribution company. We had about 22,000 SKUs in our warehouse, ranging from stuff that got ordered every day to stuff that got orderd 3x per year.   And I'm talking things with lot numbers and expiration dates.

We were able to easily (VERY easily) take any order that came in before 6:30 pm and have it out the door _that_night_ with very, very little back order deferrals.  And our guarantee to our customer was that if you ordered it on Monday, you'd have it by Wednesday.  Everywhere.

I cannot believe that Vanguard can't do the same.   There's no issue with stock expiring (thus necessitating complex demand/fill formulas in their ERP), and its *one* friggin' item.

You're right Mike: You've got a box full of fail.

I ordered a new IPod Nano for my wife a few months ago, when the new touchscreen version came out.  Typically, Apple stocks about 7 days worth of inventory in warehouses, etc.  They had to manufacture it, did some nifty laser engraving on it (for free), and shipped it from who knows where and I had it in 4 days.

Order fulfillment greatly depends on the business model, MRP system, and many times - the employees.  "oh, we leave early on Friday" communicated to the customer is indicative of a pretty lax work environment that doesn't enforce normal work behavior expectations on its employees.

I haven't had any problems with Vanguard in a few years, so I can't comment on poor service, just good service that I've received in the past.

I remember having to play phone tag for like a week just so they could get my last name for my BDU name tapes, and then a few more days for them to actually process the order...

Isn't that just great.

We destroy a CAP member's business for the sake of NHQ negotiating a contract that gives them a cut of the proceeds. We lose someone completely and totally responsive to our needs and gain a uniform/insignia manufacturer who cares so little about our business that its reflective in their very poor customer service.

It is indicative of a failure at CAP HQ and at Vanguard.
In this day and age of global shipping even by the smallest companies
there is no excuse for needing a 7 day lead on in stock items. 
O wait a minute "we leave early on Friday" :clap: thanks Vanguard!
>:( :( :-X

Proving once again the value of fora like here and CS,

I just sat down and showed this thread to Mr. Charles Bostwick, Vanguard's Director of CAP sales.  His full time job is to direct the CAP Team at VG.

His response was "The response that the customer got from Customer Service was not right.  I will personally take care of correcting that situation."

As it turns out, VG processes over 250 CAP orders a day.  Sometimes more.  The volume has increased significantly over the past year, and they recently installed a new carousel system to improve order processing.  They had a few software glitches in the upgrade that allowed some orders to be coded incorrectly as "in process" when they were not.  Mr.  Bostwick thinks that is the most likely reason for the situation described above, and he will immediately make a few calls to sort it out.

Mr. Bostwick's (and the rest of the CAP Team's) entire job is providing timely services to our members.  He takes his job very seriously.

He specifically asks any member experiencing problems with their orders to call him personally so he can fix the problem.

His contact info:

Mr. Charles Bostwick
(800) 221-1264
Fax (757) 857-1632

email: bostwick@vanguardmil.com

He told me that he reviews CT from time to time.  I encouraged him and the VG Customer service manager, Ms. Sharell Rutherford, to join and receive unvarnished members' views on VG. 

Treat them kindly, please.


Ned Lee

Quote from: Ned on November 13, 2010, 07:50:01 PM
Proving once again the value of fora like here and CS,

I just sat down and showed this thread to Mr. Charles Bostwick, Vanguard's Director of CAP sales.  His full time job is to direct the CAP Team at VG.

His response was "The response that the customer got from Customer Service was not right.  I will personally take care of correcting that situation."

As it turns out, VG processes over 250 CAP orders a day.  Sometimes more.  The volume has increased significantly over the past year, and they recently installed a new carousel system to improve order processing.  They had a few software glitches in the upgrade that allowed some orders to be coded incorrectly as "in process" when they were not.  Mr.  Bostwick thinks that is the most likely reason for the situation described above, and he will immediately make a few calls to sort it out.

Mr. Bostwick's (and the rest of the CAP Team's) entire job is providing timely services to our members.  He takes his job very seriously.

He specifically asks any member experiencing problems with their orders to call him personally so he can fix the problem.

He told me that he reviews CT from time to time.  I encouraged him and the VG Customer service manager, Ms. Sharell Rutherford, to join and receive unvarnished members' views on VG. 

Looks like the comment above about substantial increases in the last year validates the reason why the Hock Shop was closed down. (he had the pricing right and the service was super!!!) >:( >:D

Frankly if Vanguard is reading this thread as a consumer I'm really not interested in your computer problems, staffing, etc, etc, etc,

What I expect is SERVICE -- To me that means on a stock order received on Monday thru Thursday that order should be out by the door shipped by the close of business the VERY NEXT DAY.   EVERY other mail order for profit business I deal with is able to do this, why would I expect anything different from your firm ??? 

As far as special orders go, I see no reason why that can be accomplished in 5 working days from the receipt of the order.

RM

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on November 13, 2010, 08:37:21 PM
What I expect is SERVICE -- To me that means on a stock order received on Monday thru Thursday that order should be out by the door shipped by the close of business the VERY NEXT DAY.     

And Vanguard  agrees with you.  Their standards call for 1 day turnaround on their in-stock orders.  They process orders twice a day, M-F.

And they appear to be successful in meeting their standards in a large majority of their orders.

But no business comprised of humans will ever attain perfection.

We leave that to anonymous experts on the internets.

Ned Lee

Not only is the service important, but the quality has to be there also.   :o

Quality of the item or service?

I haven't had much problems when ordering from Vanguard over the past four years. Once or twice I've had a wrong item sent, like a 1LT gortex insignia vs a C/1Lt gortex insignia, but they fixed it promptly.

And while sometimes the order took longer then theHock, the items from Vanguard are better then what I've ordered from theHock. And yes, I've ordered plenty of times from both, I was the person that ordered items for other cadets AND senior members.

Quote from: Ned on November 13, 2010, 09:51:04 PM

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on November 13, 2010, 08:37:21 PM
What I expect is SERVICE -- To me that means on a stock order received on Monday thru Thursday that order should be out by the door shipped by the close of business the VERY NEXT DAY.     

And Vanguard  agrees with you.  Their standards call for 1 day turnaround on their in-stock orders.  They process orders twice a day, M-F.

And they appear to be successful in meeting their standards in a large majority of their orders.

But no business comprised of humans will ever attain perfection.

We leave that to anonymous experts on the internets.

Ned Lee

It's good to know that Vanguard actually has a standard that they want to meet.   Hopefuly they have the quality controls in place to identify the "pickers" that make the errors and correct the errors prior to shipment to the customer.
   
I agree with you that no organization (including volunteers in the Civil Air Patrol), comprised of humans will ever attain perfection (e.g. that why member's in CAP have "accidents").

RM   

Read this well all of you and act in accordance to your whims.

A friend of mine recently returned from deployment, she had medical issues as the result of her service overseas and was making the transition to the VA.  She had all sorts of problems getting this to happen.  First, she had to take time to go to to the VA office to process forms et al and was told, when she got there, she would have to come back because they tended to leave early and didn't process paperwork after a certain hour. Second, it took her paperwork, after processing, months to matriculate.

I have noticed this effect myself several places.  People leaving early, cultures of lax behavior at work and poor customer service.  When people can't get a simple burger (bun, cheese, patty other bun) correct, and I am forced to accept it out of some type of "civility;" I think the world is way off track.

In "killing" Tom's efforts, which I consider (since he was in business since at least the 1960s providing CAP Officers and Cadets with necessary items  where the Bookstore and , later, CAPMART were of EPIC FAIL status) the ultimate expression of "putting the CART before the HORSE" I have seem in recent years.

I have to admit I am quite put off by what happened to the HOCK, but that aside, if CAPNHQ is going to take such actions and restrict all CAP purchases to VANGUARD, I think we have a duty to hold them to the fire.

I think we should be the ultimate CONSUMER and exercise our rights of petition and assembly to almost the level of bother when these things happen.    Flood CAPNHQ with letters, not e-mails, and let VANGAURD know, via mail, that we demand EXCELLENCE from people we are forced to deal with.

When the number of "isolated incidents" becomes the norm, we have a problem.  Once the "isolated incidents" are less and less, then the letters will follow suit.  This type of consumer "feedback" is a part of the capitalist system, lets take it back.

Until we take back "customer service" they (those of horrible customer service) will continue to get away with their incompetence.

 :clap:Agreed!:clap:

Sparky: I certainly concur, but how many people on this blog have ever written a letter to National?  You could likely count them on one hand and have vacant fingers.  I certainly haven't, but I will before long.  You are correct:   NO EMAILS, they are too easy to delete.

Quote from: bosshawk on November 14, 2010, 06:29:56 PM
Sparky: I certainly concur, but how many people on this blog have ever written a letter to National?  You could likely count them on one hand and have vacant fingers.  I certainly haven't, but I will before long.  You are correct:   NO EMAILS, they are too easy to delete.

You are correct, there has to be a physical "mail bag" to show there is a "petition." 

I am wondering which CAPTALKERs will disagree with this approach and why?  There is nothing wrong with demanding EXCELLENCE, hummmm...is that not one of our CORE VALUES?  I think we should demand EXCELLENCE of VANGUARD and hold them to their obligations as we tend to hold our membership responsible for following CAP policy.

I've communicated with Mr. Bostwick when there have beem problems. I would contact him first before taking up the pitchforks.

Quote from: FARRIER on November 14, 2010, 07:02:24 PM
I've communicated with Mr. Bostwick when there have been problems. I would contact him first before taking up the pitchforks.

You are one of many who has claimed to have done this, yet the problems persist.

In any case, since when is appealing to a commissar the standard operating procedure for this sort of thing.  I think the existence of said letters sends a concrete message to leadership.  Additionally, said letters will stop when the poor service stops and the excellence begins.

I ordered uniform stuff for the NER conference a month ago.  The conference ended today.  I'm still waiting for my order!

Quote from: Thrash on November 14, 2010, 08:10:32 PM
I ordered uniform stuff for the NER conference a month ago.  The conference ended today.  I'm still waiting for my order!

Good lord.  Did you order anything out of the ordinary, like custom embroidered or engraved items?  Or was this just standard insignia?  A month is beyond bad logistics, unless some of your items were out of stock and needed another batch to be made or something.   


Did Vanguard give you any clue as to what's holding up the order?

Quote from: Pylon on November 14, 2010, 08:45:50 PM

Quote from: Thrash on November 14, 2010, 08:10:32 PM
I ordered uniform stuff for the NER conference a month ago.  The conference ended today.  I'm still waiting for my order!

Good lord.  Did you order anything out of the ordinary, like custom embroidered or engraved items?  Or was this just standard insignia?  A month is beyond bad logistics, unless some of your items were out of stock and needed another batch to be made or something.   


Did Vanguard give you any clue as to what's holding up the order?

Pylon, these are the sorts of stories that are becoming far more common.  You are in marketing...surely this sort of poor relations can't be part of their plan.  Could it stem from the fact that there is no competition.  Captive audiences needn't have a dollar spent on any marketing nor an ounce of thought on customer service...being that they are captive.

This is why I am advocating so strongly for some sort of response from the membership. 

We are not asking for much...not so much as a lowering of prices nor anything like that or quality control complaints.  All that is REQUIRED is they work with us in a timely fashion.  I am, however, asking for better than usual service since we are a captive consumer group.

Quote from: Major Carrales on November 14, 2010, 07:42:47 PM
You are one of many who has claimed to have done this, yet the problems persist.

In any case, since when is appealing to a commissar the standard operating procedure for this sort of thing.  I think the existence of said letters sends a concrete message to leadership.  Additionally, said letters will stop when the poor service stops and the excellence begins.

You're not seriously suggesting that complaining directly to the person who has the responsibility for ensuring excellence is the wrong solution, are you?

You and I are both public servants, and as such I'm not sure that others will ever see us as experts on "good public service."  But I used to work in restaurants.  And when I was waiting tables, I knew I had to give good service, if for no other reason than trying to maximise my tips.

If one of my guests was having a bad visit, I would certainly want them to bring it up to me so I could correct the problem immediately as opposed to simply complaining to the manager on the way out when it was too late for me to fix anything.

In a CAP context, would you really want parents taking their complaint straight to the wing commander before giving you a chance to address the issue?

I'm not suggesting that writing to NHQ and sharing with them your preceptions of VG service is in any way inappropriate.  Indeed, our leaders need the feedback.

But I would hope that anyone would first take it up with Mr. Bostwick and his team.  You can then include the results, if any, in your letter.

Ned Lee

("commissar"?  Nice.  That's exactly the kind of thing that will make him want to go the extra mile for us.  I'm sure you don't mind if your students use that term to describe your work.)

Quote from: Ned on November 14, 2010, 09:53:36 PM

Quote from: Major Carrales on November 14, 2010, 07:42:47 PM
You are one of many who has claimed to have done this, yet the problems persist.

In any case, since when is appealing to a commissar the standard operating procedure for this sort of thing.  I think the existence of said letters sends a concrete message to leadership.  Additionally, said letters will stop when the poor service stops and the excellence begins.

You're not seriously suggesting that complaining directly to the person who has the responsibility for ensuring excellence is the wrong solution, are you?

You and I are both public servants, and as such I'm not sure that others will ever see us as experts on "good public service."  But I used to work in restaurants.  And when I was waiting tables, I knew I had to give good service, if for no other reason than trying to maximise my tips.

If one of my guests was having a bad visit, I would certainly want them to bring it up to me so I could correct the problem immediately as opposed to simply complaining to the manager on the way out when it was too late for me to fix anything.

In a CAP context, would you really want parents taking their complaint straight to the wing commander before giving you a chance to address the issue?

I'm not suggesting that writing to NHQ and sharing with them your preceptions of VG service is in any way inappropriate.  Indeed, our leaders need the feedback.

But I would hope that anyone would first take it up with Mr. Bostwick and his team.  You can then include the results, if any, in your letter.

Ned Lee

("commissar"?  Nice.  That's exactly the kind of thing that will make him want to go the extra mile for us.  I'm sure you don't mind if your students use that term to describe your work.)

Ned, I know you are the resident "line tower" however, really?!? 

My suggestion is that the complaints issued to Mr. Bostwick have done little to stave off the continued issues with Vanguard.  When such an esteemed and long time member such as Pylon points out an issue with his order and then described what he was given as a response from these people.  Then others join in with similar stories...I am besides myself.  Add that to the fact that the HOCK shop was kibosh-ed, I have to play the "righteous indignation" card.

If the HOCK has to die, then Vanguard has to go beyond the extra mile.  People forget that exclusive rights to CAP and its membership works both ways.  I would go as far as to suggest that Vanguard should cater toward CAP more than the armed forces exactly because of this "relationship." 

When the issue of "kickbacks" are brought in...I will point out the lack of benefit to the Southern and Western Wings who will not see the direct benefit of these "kickbacks" on a scale worth reporting.

Plainly put...what is "good for the goose is good for the gander."  If there's going to be such incredulous action against the HOCK, then there must be the same degree of severity in demanding near perfection from VANGUARD!

As for the "commissar" crack...I think "Czar" might have been more appropriate in terms with modern Executive usage. A commissar is one that seeks to control public opinion or its expression.  In my opinion, that would more describe you and I this occasion.

Quote from: Major Carrales on November 14, 2010, 10:03:56 PM
Ned, I know you are the resident "line tower" however, really?!? 

OK, Joe, we can trade "reallys" for a while, I guess, but let's take another look to see if we can identify our differences on this issue.

Quote
My suggestion is that the complaints issued to Mr. Bostwick have done little to stave off the continued issues with Vanguard. 

Why do you say that?  Not even Pylon said anything about talking to Mr. Bostwick.

Pylon certainly got bad service from VG, which VG acknowledges.

But beside from anecdotal stories here on CT, can you support your factual allegation of  "continued issues with VG?"

If I remember correctly, some people have complained here on CT about you and your posts.  Does that mean that we have "continued issues" with you?

(Of course not.)

Assuming that every single complaint posted here on CT is absolutely true (and indeed I have no reason to doubt any of them), how does that allow us to assert that there are "continuing issues" with VG?

You are a teacher; you must know that it is a bit of a leap to suggest that multiple complaints posted on an internet forum proves a ongoing customer service issue.

QuoteWhen such an esteemed and long time member such as Pylon points out an issue with his order and then described what he was given as a response from these people.  Then others join in with similar stories...I am besides myself. 

I'm sorry, I'm not following you here. 

Assuming for a moment that VG does not have an effective way to track which of their orders come from "esteemed and long time members," we are back to the notion that multiple complaints may well point to a problem, but they may also be an statistically insignificant event.

QuoteAdd that to the fact that the HOCK shop was kibosh-ed, I have to play the "righteous indignation" card.

It appears that the HOCK's business model was unable to survive without resorting to piracy of somebody else's intellectual property.  If you want to throw a little "righteous indignation" around, you might consider a different direction.

I donate blood to the Red Cross, but I have to go down to the Community Center periodically to do so.  I'll bet a vampire would be happy to give me better "customer service" by coming to my house to collect the donation.   ;)

Sometimes "better customer service" is not the way to define mission success.

QuoteWhen the issue of "kickbacks" are brought in...I will point out the lack of benefit to the Southern and Western Wings who will not see the direct benefit of these "kickback" on a scale worth reporting.

And yet, the volunteer leaders of those Southern and Western wings voted for the current arrangement.  Perhaps those leaders could see a benefit to their members that you do not.  Can you think of another explanation?


So where does that leave us?

Your position appears to be that after reading several complaints on the internet about VG's customer service that it has been somehow proven that VG has failed in their responsibilities under the licensing agreement and we should take up torches and pitchforks and meet at NHQ.

My position is that the complaints certainly raise reasonable concerns, and we should engage VG in an effort to see if there is a problem, and if so correct it.  If members experience a problem with their order, they should call VG and attempt to resolve it.  If they call Mr. Bostwick directly, they will certainly receive a correction to the problem in the shortest possible time.

I haven't gone back and counted every complaint in this and similar threads, but my WAG is that we have read a couple of dozen here.  VG processes well over 50,000 CAP orders a year.


Because of the concerns raised here, I personally met with Mr. Bostwick, passed along the concerns expressed here, and pressed him for an explanation, which I shared with you all.

Quote from: Ned on November 14, 2010, 10:51:38 PM

QuoteAdd that to the fact that the HOCK shop was kibosh-ed, I have to play the "righteous indignation" card.

It appears that the HOCK's business model was unable to survive without resorting to piracy of somebody else's intellectual property.  If you want to throw a little "righteous indignation" around, you might consider a different direction.

I may be mistaken, but wasn't THE HOCK in business well before the exclusive agreement was issued? 

So I don't think that their business model was wrong.  The problem was that short of a few at the top, nobody knew that the agreement existed or something would have been said long before it was. 

But anyway, back to the topic.  Ned, I will send an email to Mr. Bostwick with my concerns and see where that gets me.  If I don't get a response that I feels is appropriate, I will send a letter to NHQ.  I think that is fair enough.

-Paramedic

Ned, Ned, Ned....

I think we are on the same page here, to some degree.  Only I want a specific course of action and you want a specific course of inaction.  My point remains that if Vanguard and NHQ is going to demand 100% compliance in the idea of ONE VENDOR, that they agree that they must provide 100%  customer service to all CAP people.  If one is not reasonable, then I submit then neither is the other.

Anecdotal or not, being the single vendor to all of CAP requires a higher degree of accuracy and customer service.

As for continuing issues with Vanguard, lets see if we can go six months without the sort of "issues" mentioned here.  Ideally, by the definition of "continuing issues" (matters that repeat themselves...in this case longer than reasonable waits for in stock/non-custom products, telephone "run around" and the like) if it happens once more it is continuing.  let's see if they can "put up."  I will be making an order for name tapes on behalf of cadets; I will separate the order and make the name tapes on one order and the patches and "in-stock" items on another.  Let's see what happens.

My point is not that Vanguard tracks which members are "long time and esteemed," but rather that those like Pylon that have been at it a while seem to have complaints about it.  Such a complaint is enough for me to be vocal as well.

QuoteSometimes "better customer service" is not the way to define mission success.

We are trying to get Units outfitted in a timely and effective manner.  This latest thing with the HOCK and Vanguard is a prime example of "the cart coming before the Horse."  The idea is to get CAP missions accomplished, which requires regulation uniforms.  Because of said issues, I have resorted to making paper name tapes and patches of exacting size and shape to have to accomplish the mission.  When the HOCK existed, it was an institution where we could get things in a timely manner.  I could call in or go on line and have my materials (many times on behalf of cadets) in less than a week.  In the mail on Monday, in the mailbox on Friday.  I expect the same of Vanguard...in fact, I expect it more since they are now the only possible place to work with.

I am, however, willing to be reasonable...you relay to Mr. Bostwick these issues.  If there is improvement, I will stand down.  If not, what would you have me do?  Go contrary to my beliefs on the matter?  The only way to change my opinion on the matter is to prove to me otherwise. 

I expect nothing short of total dedication to CAP and its membership from Vanguard, by taking the action that it has is removing other suppliers they have that obligation.  I don't want to read that people are leaving early from there on Fridays, or that there are computer issues or any other cockamamie excuses.  If that is what we can expect, then bring back the other vendors.
   

Quote from: Major Carrales on November 14, 2010, 11:42:31 PMWe are trying to get Units outfitted in a timely and effective manner.  This latest thing with the HOCK and Vanguard is a prime example of "the cart coming before the Horse."  The idea is to get CAP missions accomplished, which requires regulation uniforms.  Because of said issues, I have resorted to making paper name tapes and patches of exacting size and shape to have to accomplish the mission.

The the Hock was not your friend, as what they sold in many cases were knock-items with incorrect colors, details, and quality of fabric issues.  Nametapes aren't even on the table for this discussion because VG isn't the only official source for them.

Hmm, got to wonder how much merchandise stock The Hock Shop has on hand, that they were prohibited from selling by the so called cease & desist order ???

Perhaps they will consider donating these materials to various squadrons around the country (in order to get a tax write off) or they can send it to our squadron and we will distribute accordingly to those in need :angel:

This would help the poor Vanguard people in not having to process so many orders from CAP :angel:
RM

RM   

Quote from: Major Carrales on November 14, 2010, 11:42:31 PM
My point remains that if Vanguard and NHQ is going to demand 100% compliance in the idea of ONE VENDOR, that they agree that they must provide 100%  customer service to all CAP people.  If one is not reasonable, then I submit then neither is the other.

I suppose that is my point.

"100% customer service" is simply not a meaningful criteria, however laudable a goal it might be.

Are you really saying that every single one of the 50,000 + orders of the year must be perfect, and if not then VG has "failed"?

Quote(B)eing the single vendor to all of CAP requires a higher degree of accuracy and customer service.

When compared to what, exactly?

The HOCK (which has had its own share of of complaints about quality and service)?

The Bookstore / CAPMART (which were never known for their quality of service.)?

The Standard of Perfection?

QuoteAs for continuing issues with Vanguard, lets see if we can go six months without the sort of "issues" mentioned here. 

Again, this is simply not a workable standard. 

Six months without a single complaint would be nice, of course, but it simply isn't reasonably achievable by any company.

Imagine the mischief that could occur is all that was necessary to cancel our licensing agreement with VG were to count how many anonymous complaints were posted on the internet.  Competitors would gridlock our ability to provide members with the full line of CAP insignia with just a few clicks of their mice.

QuoteI will be making an order for name tapes on behalf of cadets; I will separate the order and make the name tapes on one order and the patches and "in-stock" items on another.  Let's see what happens.

Absolutely.

I'd be happy to hear about your experiences.

QuoteI am, however, willing to be reasonable...you relay to Mr. Bostwick these issues.  If there is improvement, I will stand down.  If not, what would you have me do?  Go contrary to my beliefs on the matter?  The only way to change my opinion on the matter is to prove to me otherwise. 

Well, that's the problem, isn't it?  How can I possibly "prove" to you a problem has been solved if we can't even establish that there is a problem to begin with?

I don't think I am asking you to "stand down" in any event.

If you get bad service from VG, absolutely share your experiences with your wing commander.  Who will have a say on whether or not VG remains as our exclusive provider.  Absolutely feel free to share your experiences with the program manager at NHQ.

That can only be a Good Thing.

The only problem I see here and in the related threads is leaping to the conclusion that VG has overall "bad customer service" based on fragmentary reports posted on the internet, some of which are anonymous.  There just isn't enough data to draw that conclusion.

It is one thing to know that you personally received bad service from VG; it is quite another to decide that everyone, most folks, or even a significant per centage of members get bad service based solely on anecdotal accounts posted here.

QuoteI expect nothing short of total dedication to CAP and its membership from Vanguard, by taking the action that it has is removing other suppliers they have that obligation.  I don't want to read that people are leaving early from there on Fridays, or that there are computer issues or any other cockamamie excuses.  If that is what we can expect, then bring back the other vendors.

I agree that all customers deserve and should expect good service.

But let everyone who has never had a computer problem, had a bad day at work, or left early on a Friday cast the first stone . . . . . .

And it bears repeating why it is not a good idea to simply cancel the agreement and open the floodgates to anyone with an embroidery machine to make a buck off our intellectual property.

1.  We have over a hundred unique uniform items, counting ribbons, grades, nameplates, etc.  By allowing folks to fiercely compete for the most popular items like BDU tapes and plastic nameplates, you will inevitably force up the price for the less popular items.  Folks are going to wind up paying far more for things like Silver Medal of Valor ribbons, Master CDI badges, and Group Commander badges. (Which probably only sell in the dozens in a good year.)

2.  We lose all control over quality of the insignia during the dive to the lowest possible prices for insignia made in offshore sweatshops.

3.  We would lose the small but significant revenue stream that helps pay for training facilities like Hawk Mountain and Oshkosh.

4.  Ironically, we lose control over customer service standards.  If VG values our business, it is in their best interest to maintain good customer service.  We have a program manager at NHQ who works this issue with VG now.  No contract means they don't have to respond to our concerns.  Case in point, Mr. Bostwick took the time to meet personally with me to help improve customer service.  That simply would not happen if there was no contract.

Quote from: Major Carrales on November 14, 2010, 11:42:31 PM
I am, however, willing to be reasonable...you relay to Mr. Bostwick these issues.  If there is improvement, I will stand down.  If not, what would you have me do?  Go contrary to my beliefs on the matter?  The only way to change my opinion on the matter is to prove to me otherwise.

Going for the Ray Hayden tactic? You going to call for a "strike" if, in your opinion, the service from Vanguard doesn't improve?

And I just love the  respect you're showing for a member of the Board of Governors....

Perhaps higher prices for the items that sell in the dozens each year in return for lower prices for the stuff used by thousands of CAP members is a worthwhile trade? 

 Perhaps there should be a topic name change to "Vanguard Apologia"?

Quote from: PHall on November 15, 2010, 12:36:31 AM

Quote from: Major Carrales on November 14, 2010, 11:42:31 PM
I am, however, willing to be reasonable...you relay to Mr. Bostwick these issues.  If there is improvement, I will stand down.  If not, what would you have me do?  Go contrary to my beliefs on the matter?  The only way to change my opinion on the matter is to prove to me otherwise.

Going for the Ray Hayden tactic? You going to call for a "strike" if, in your opinion, the service from Vanguard doesn't improve?

And I just love the  respect you're showing for a member of the Board of Governors....

I cannot call for a boycott, since there is only one place from where to get the needed materials and I am more more about running a squadron of Seniors and Cadets than allowing this destroy CAP operations.  However, I can freely call for the highest level of standards.

As for the Board of Governors, respect is not defined by blind obedience.  I disagree with what has occurred, I have made my opinion known to all...one would think they should want to know when the popularity of their decision is in question.

If they want to censure or order me to keep quiet about such matters they can do so, until then I and all of us are free to voice our opinion.  Or are only your machinations worthy of being voiced?

In all honesty, this whole thing is, in my opinion, a piece of bad press getting worse.   The decision to go with Vanguard was theirs to make, however, the backlash from much of the membership should be addressed.

As I understand it, Lt Col Flanagan created the HOCK to address the need for mitigation of the poor service of the Bookstore and, later, CAPMART.  He stockpiled CAP insignia so it could be available on the cuff.  Later, he sought other sources to produce the insignia and started to offer field gear and the like.

That is admirable...much more than many here do in even having a "squadron" store/stockpile of items cadets and seniors can obtain.   To have dropped him in this manner fails to address the spirit of this.  Vanguard's initial slow acceptance of these duties and the customer service reported here do not help the case.

I find this sad, Vanguard Industries has provided military insignia since 1919 or so (if memory serves), yet it is in poor reputation here in CAP due to all that that has been said and reported.  My beef is that they have to be uber-supportive of its CAP customers since they are, literally, all we've got.  Ned finds that to be unrealistic, I find it to be a mantle they took on when becoming "the ONE."

Now, if they can smooth all this out...great.  Until then they had better provide the service they claim to as our sole distributor.

Quote from: Ned on November 14, 2010, 09:53:36 PMYou're not seriously suggesting that complaining directly to the person who has the responsibility for ensuring excellence is the wrong solution, are you?

I would say there's a better solution...competition.

You rarely, if ever, see such stories of customer service and complete indifference among employees of a competitive business.  You only see it in public service and private monopolies (think cable companies), because outside of those types of situations, customers are free to vote with their wallets and utilize competitors.

Unfortunately, Vanguard has been granted such a monopoly.  The choice people have is either put up with their bull excrement, or vote with their wallets in removing themselves from CAP.

That's try to compare apples to apples (or mostly so).

What is the level of service (percentage of problem orders) with the rest of Vanguard's lines? Is what CAP is seeing higher or lower than that?

If it's higher, we have a problem. If it's not, chalk it up to doo-doo happens.

Quote from: RiverAux on November 15, 2010, 12:36:39 AM
Perhaps higher prices for the items that sell in the dozens each year in return for lower prices for the stuff used by thousands of CAP members is a worthwhile trade?

That is certainly a reasonable position.

As a practical matter, it will certainly mean that some ribbons and insignia will simply become significantly more expensive.  Things like Group Commander badges and Master EMT badges probably sell in the 50-100 units a year range.  Someone might want to make those for 5-10 times the current price.

But it will also mean that some insignia will simply become unobtainable for all practical purposes.

Things like a WWII target tracking ribbon, the CAP Lifesaving miniature medal, Master Historian Badges, etc.  Things that probably sell less than a dozen units a year.  They will simply fade away.

But of course most of us will never be touched by this kind of thing.  Essentially by definition, this will only affect a relatively few members.

And we can certainly discuss why we need so many unique ribbons and badges in the first place; IOW whether CAP should use "off the shelf" ribbons and insignia already created for the USAF or JROTC, or whatever.

But as long as our policy is that all of our members should be able to purchase all of our authorized insignia at a reasonable price, we are kinda stuck with the current agreement.  Or something like it.


I have tried to respond to the "monopoly" argument.  If VG is making a profit, it is in their competitive best interest to treat us well so that their contract may be renewed.  That is why this is different than a utility or government service.

And it is worth noting that a perfectly legal and inexpensive market for CAP-specfic items already exists - it is perfectly permissible for members to buy, sell, and trade existing insignia.  We see some of that here on CT.  I see it a lot on eBay.  IOW, there are some alternatives to VG, and allow members to vote with their wallets if they want.

And finally, I have not felt disrespected or attacked in this thread in any way.  And even if I had been, you have to have a pretty thick skin to do what I do in my job and in CAP.

And of course, this is a decision that was not made by the BoG in any event . . .  8)

Quote from: Major Carrales on November 14, 2010, 11:42:31 PM
I have resorted to making paper name tapes and patches of exacting size and shape to have to accomplish the mission.

There are other sources for nametapes, which are of better quality and ship fast.

I am asking because I honestly do not know the answer:

Does Vanguard hold agreements with other organizations or companies as well or are they exclusive to CAP?  I do see that they have other items not related to CAP on their website as well.

If they do work with other organizations in an official capacity such as CAP, it would be understandable (to a point) that orders are going to be an issue and take longer.

That being said, I, too, have had problems with VG in the past.  I also had issues with The Hock.  Both handled the issues but one was quicker than the other in dealing with it.

I'm sure now that Mr. Bostwick is aware of our concerns, there will be some changes in the process.  We just have to wait and see what those changes are and if they have improved the service we expect.

The Hock spoiled us.  I don't think anyone could have done a better job in deliveries without paying an outrageous amount.  Now that that luxury isn't given to us, we complain because we don't have it.  My kids complained when I turned off the cable at home.  They still survived.  Just without the luxuries they've expected to have.  If it's going to take 2 weeks to get your order, simply order 3-4 weeks earlier than you need it!

Quote from: caphornbuckle on November 15, 2010, 02:08:53 AM
If it's going to take 2 weeks to get your order, simply order 3-4 weeks earlier than you need it!

More like a month in advance...

Quote from: Thrash on November 14, 2010, 08:10:32 PM
I ordered uniform stuff for the NER conference a month ago.  The conference ended today.  I'm still waiting for my order!

Quote from: caphornbuckle on November 15, 2010, 02:08:53 AM
If it's going to take 2 weeks to get your order, simply order 3-4 weeks earlier than you need it!

So what does he do? He DID order a month/4 weeks in advance....

Quote from: DakRadz on November 15, 2010, 02:34:17 AM

Quote from: Thrash on November 14, 2010, 08:10:32 PM
I ordered uniform stuff for the NER conference a month ago.  The conference ended today.  I'm still waiting for my order!

Quote from: caphornbuckle on November 15, 2010, 02:08:53 AM
If it's going to take 2 weeks to get your order, simply order 3-4 weeks earlier than you need it!

So what does he do? He DID order a month/4 weeks in advance....

Seems like there's a unique situation on this one considering this is the only problem that's been brought up.  However, it doesn't seem like it's happening very often.  I'm sure you have forgot to pay a bill or lost something as well.  We're all human and make mistakes.  It happens.  Besides, we were assured that these types of issues would be looked into and resolved.  I'd wait to see what happens now.  The voices have been heard on here (GO CAPTALK!)...let's give them a chance to fix it now!

Quote from: Pylon on November 14, 2010, 08:45:50 PM

Quote from: Thrash on November 14, 2010, 08:10:32 PM
I ordered uniform stuff for the NER conference a month ago.  The conference ended today.  I'm still waiting for my order!

Good lord.  Did you order anything out of the ordinary, like custom embroidered or engraved items?  Or was this just standard insignia?  A month is beyond bad logistics, unless some of your items were out of stock and needed another batch to be made or something.   


Did Vanguard give you any clue as to what's holding up the order?

z


Just a name tag. Everything else was normal stuff.

I just got notice that it shipped.  How's that for timing? No rush now.  :clap:

Quote from: Major Carrales on November 14, 2010, 11:42:31 PMBecause of said issues, I have resorted to making paper name tapes and patches of exacting size and shape to have to accomplish the mission.

So you're saying that you can not get name tapes and patches from Vanguard?
Or are you saying that you can get them, just not as fast as you would like?

You are aware that you can order name tapes from AAFES, right? They do offer white on blue CAP name tapes.

Quote from: PHall on November 15, 2010, 02:56:09 AM

Quote from: Major Carrales on November 14, 2010, 11:42:31 PMBecause of said issues, I have resorted to making paper name tapes and patches of exacting size and shape to have to accomplish the mission.

So you're saying that you can not get name tapes and patches from Vanguard?
Or are you saying that you can get them, just not as fast as you would like?

You are aware that you can order name tapes from AAFES, right? They do offer white on blue CAP name tapes.

Try Wing Patches...

Quote from: Major Carrales on November 15, 2010, 03:09:18 AM
Try Wing Patches...

Considering that they are no longer required...

Quote from: Eclipse on November 15, 2010, 03:43:41 AM

Quote from: Major Carrales on November 15, 2010, 03:09:18 AM
Try Wing Patches...

Considering that they are no longer required...

They are in Texas...do your research.

Quote from: caphornbuckle on November 15, 2010, 02:08:53 AM
Does Vanguard hold agreements with other organizations or companies as well or are they exclusive to CAP?  I do see that they have other items not related to CAP on their website as well.

Vanguard is one  of the largest supplier of insignia and accessories in the US, and deal with a number of large organizations and institutions besides CAP, as well as a large numbers of the general public.

CAP is a small but significant portion of their business, certainly less than 10%.

So, if Vanguard gets 50K+ CAP orders per year and there are about 12 "Vanguard did a lousy job" threads here (since we're using these as the basis for the value of Vanguard's service) that works out to 0.024% dissatisfaction rate.  Even if you assume that there may be "ten times" that amount of dissatisfied customers, or even "one-hundred times", you're still at 2.4%.  From a retail industry standpoint, 97% Customer Satisfaction is nearly unheard of.

Even lean, mean, profit generating customer-service oriented Apple scored an 81% in customer satisfaction last year.  With an 81% satisfaction rate for CAP, that would mean that they could "botch" nearly 10,000 orders of CAP customers each year and still be ranking with some of the top public companies out there.

Well, I'm not sure that math holds up. 

I assume that VG has some sort of customer satisfaction measure that they keep track of.    Has anyone had some sort of survey or feedback request from VG after placing an order? 

Quote from: RiverAux on November 15, 2010, 04:30:14 AM
Well, I'm not sure that math holds up. 

I assume that VG has some sort of customer satisfaction measure that they keep track of.    Has anyone had some sort of survey or feedback request from VG after placing an order?

Obviously very unscientific.  I am still going to assume that Vanguard doesn't "displease" 1 in 5 CAP members in some way.  The customer satisfaction surveys always include multiple categories: timeliness of order, ease of ordering, quality of product, interaction with agents, responsiveness to problems, etc.  So, there are many areas for a company to "fail" and fall into that dissatisfied category.

In our case, someone could get a slightly chipped flight cap device and rate their quality as poor.  No business has 100% satisfaction.  There is always someone who is upset for one reason or another, and they're usually the most vocal.  Afterall, what is there to complain about when something goes like it should?

In Vanguard's case, I've had mixed reviews, trending towards significantly improved.  Even in the beginning of their dealings with CAP, when stuff was still mislabeled, etc they were always willing to remedy the problem.  Many cases they even went above and beyond what I would have considered normal.

For example, about 5 years ago, my wife needed a couple of CAP polo shirts embroidered.  We lived about 4 miles from the Vanguard building.  Since they didn't have any her size (female shape and petiteness), they told her that she could bring in her own shirt and they'd embroider it for her.  Not only did they only charge her $5.00 per shirt, but they did it while she waited.  $15.00, 3 polos, 30 minutes.

I needed to get new mess dress shoulder boards.  They were out of stock of the ones that I needed, because they hadn't finalized the manufacturing contract with their supplier yet.  Understanding what I was looking for, the lady suggested that I just buy a pair of the bullion insignia and replace them.  It was like $5.00 instead of $40.00 for a new set of boards.  My understanding is that those aren't something that they normally sell separately.  They could have said "sorry, you're out of luck."

This summer, I was sent the wrong sized IACE polos.  I got the replacements in two days.  It was sent priority overnight at no cost.  I had the replacements before I even sent the wrong size back.

I placed an order a few weeks ago, which they had in their hands for less than 24 hours before it shipped.  It took UPS a bit longer, but that's not their fault. 

I recently ordered a GRW mini medal and recieved a National Commander's Citation instead (very similar looking, only reversed).  Again, fixing the order was no problem.

In terms of quality, I haven't had any qualms with their embroidery (significantly better than the Hock's ever was).  I think their products are very nice.  In fact, I just got a garment bag with the CAP seal on it.  Great product.  The only thing that I was ever disappointed with was a run of senior epaulet sleeves that I ordered during their transition.  They used some sort of cheap grey fabric that looked bad.  The next ones I ordered were fine again.

Sure, I poke some fun at them because their novelty items are a bit cheeseball in design, but the products are quality.

I measure a company's commitment to customer satisfaction based on how they handle their mistakes, and so far, they've fixed them promptly and without hassle.  Sometimes things slip through the cracks and someone you interact with isn't as awesome as they should be (as I noted earlier in the thread), which can leave a sour taste.  Overall, though, I think that our arrangement with Vanguard is significantly better than what we had previously.

Quote from: jimmydeanno on November 15, 2010, 05:44:27 AMThe only thing that I was ever disappointed with was a run of senior epaulet sleeves that I ordered during their transition.  They used some sort of cheap grey fabric that looked bad.  The next ones I ordered were fine again.

Sure, I poke some fun at them because their novelty items are a bit cheeseball in design, but the products are quality.

I noticed these things back when and my initial reaction was "wow, the Hock is taking stuff to new lows of acceptance" and then at the next Wing conference I saw that these were what was on the Vanguard table. The one time I "blamed" the Hock for a craptastic product, and it wasn't theirs. So I immediately set out to procure Major and Lt. Col. sets of the then, now "old" kind and keep them in waiting as I was not interested in those cheesy paper looking things. I was happy to see at this weekends CAWG conference that the quality and decency of the product has returned to near that of what was produced prior to their take over.

..and the cheeseball stuff? LOL.. like the giant carpet like coaster thing to set "stuff" on, with a CAP majcom on it? But for a buck on the clearance shelf.. why not. ;-) .. even if it's just to toss at the crocodiles in Ghana to see if they'll bite.

I will say, I have found the *best* time to order from Vanguard is from the Wing Conference, or National Boards and if they don't have it on the table, they'll ship it 'free'.

Hint: Need stuff for unit supply, and a Wing Conference is coming up? Send someone who's going with a shopping list, and if they don't have what you need, you may even get the whole thing shipped to you.

IF CAP members have the problems with Vanguard that show up in these posts. And IF Vanguard does nothing to improve the service to CAP member, perhaps there is a breach of contract existing. Noting from the posts that members have had good service from Vanguard, and also poor service, maybe the National Board needs to take a 2nd look at the contract with Vanguard.
I personally have never ordered from Vanguard, but did order from The Hock and got great service. It's a fact that much of what the Hock sold was produced by Vanguard. There is no question based on these posts that The Hock has given CAP members much better service than Vanguard.
Look into the history of CAP and you'll find that companies were approved by CAP to sell CAP insignia. This goes way back to World War II. The difference being there were several companies at a time that were approved, not a single company. Should the Vanguard contact be reviewed by the NEC or NB to insure acceptable service from Vanguard is a question above my pay grade. IF there is a problem only peoiple with eagles on their epaulets can resolve them. (or maybe a LtCol on the BOG).
As to the "kick-backs" to CAP,  as I understand it, there were no other ideas for the use of the funds other than what the NB did with the money since the amount of funding in a longer term was not a stable dollar amount.

Quote from: BillB on November 15, 2010, 10:47:41 AMIt's a fact that much of what the Hock sold was produced by Vanguard.

Supported by what evidence?  Do you think VG is going to care if you buy stuff from them in quantity and then resell it and it either a personal loss or higher prices?

Quote from: BillB on November 15, 2010, 10:47:41 AM
There is no question based on these posts that The Hock has given CAP members much better service than Vanguard.

No, there is no question a few people have had issues with orders on a random basis and they happen to be active here.

QuoteDo you think VG is going to care if you buy stuff from them in quantity and then resell it and it either a personal loss or higher prices?

Why not Vanguard used to be a RETAIL and WHOLESALE business. They did it in the past

Quote from: BillB on November 15, 2010, 06:37:49 PM

QuoteDo you think VG is going to care if you buy stuff from them in quantity and then resell it and it either a personal loss or higher prices?

Why not Vanguard used to be a RETAIL and WHOLESALE business. They did it in the past

They still are. Wholesale to AAFES, NAVY Exchange, CG Exchange, the CG Aux and the government. rRetail to the general public.

Quote from: Ned on November 15, 2010, 01:27:33 AM
And it is worth noting that a perfectly legal and inexpensive market for CAP-specfic items already exists - it is perfectly permissible for members to buy, sell, and trade existing insignia.  We see some of that here on CT.  I see it a lot on eBay.  IOW, there are some alternatives to VG, and allow members to vote with their wallets if they want.

An interesting point, but this is comparing the new/used markets as equals. If someone wishes to have clean/crisp new insignia, etc, then VG is the only option. Economically, in any market being considered, there is always expected used market and black market activity, but these should not be factored as a mainstream alternatives of equal quality, but rather as second-rate substitutions. Essentially, if a member has no issue wearing perhaps old, worn, or relatively dirty insignia, ribbons, medals, etc, then the used market may be for them. If someone wants new, clean, crisp insignia, then the new (i.e. VG) market is the only option.

If anyone sincerely believes that there is no difference between used and new ribbons than I guess we have a difference in perspective. Show me one single drill team that won NCC inspection without fresh ribbons.

Quote from: BillB on November 15, 2010, 06:37:49 PM

QuoteDo you think VG is going to care if you buy stuff from them in quantity and then resell it and it either a personal loss or higher prices?

Why not Vanguard used to be a RETAIL and WHOLESALE business. They did it in the past

Yes, and should VG choose to create a secondary market for their products, as Al pointed out they already do, that is their prerogative, in which case anyone selling those products could set the price anyway they want (barring some contractual agreement on price).

As it stands today, anyone who wants to pay full retail for VG's stuff and sell it for a loss, or even a higher price, would be free to do so as there is no law against resale when the manufacturer has already made full profit (of course VG would be free to just refuse to sell in quantity as many retailers do).

Neither was the case here, where you had a separate, for profit, entity who chose to violate the intellectual property rights of an organization he said he held dear, and further provide an inferior product to members of that organization, at prices that were about the same as the approved vendor.

Even worse, though I don't have direct knowledge of this, others have commented that he ignored the directives from NHQ
ordering a cease and desist - you know this is the same organization for which he used to be a member and promised to obey.

All under the guise of "helping members".  I have been in for 11 years, seen the depot, bookstore, CAPMart, and VG.  All had issues, never was I unable to procure something I needed, nor did I need THS to provide it.  I have, however, had to deal with 10+ years of incorrect colors, etc., on insignia of my subordinates and fellow members, who wasted their money and had to replace items when they found them to be incorrect.

Apparently the CAP honor code, US law, or simple ethics are all thrown out the window when things are made "easy".
That attitude fits very well in a universe that currently thinks that music, videos, and software are also "free" as long
as you don't get caught.

At a minimum this will make an excellent subject for Character Development sessions.  "Ethics and law" vs. "the free market".

Quote from: DBlair on November 15, 2010, 07:00:26 PM
Show me one single drill team that won NCC inspection without fresh ribbons.

Argh.  A "cross-over" thread!

Don't get me started on NCC.

I'm gonna crack that nut just as soon as we are done rebalancing corporate governance.   8)

(But suffice it to say that we will restructure NCC in a way that does not require teams to buy and tailor new uniforms,new ribbons and insignia, and matching track suits to win.  That is simply too much money down the drain and reduces the ability of the average unit to compete and gain the advantages of the NCC experience.)

Ned Lee

How about "no ribbons"?

Done.

Quote from: Ned on November 15, 2010, 07:40:39 PM

Quote from: DBlair on November 15, 2010, 07:00:26 PM
Show me one single drill team that won NCC inspection without fresh ribbons.

Argh.  A "cross-over" thread!

Don't get me started on NCC.

I'm gonna crack that nut just as soon as we are done rebalancing corporate governance.   8)

(But suffice it to say that we will restructure NCC in a way that does not require teams to buy and tailor new uniforms,new ribbons and insignia, and matching track suits to win.  That is simply too much money down the drain and reduces the ability of the average unit to compete and gain the advantages of the NCC experience.)

Ned Lee

Very interesting. ...I must admit that I'm curious about the changes being considered. What is the expected timeline before these changes will be put in place?

Quote from: Ned on November 15, 2010, 07:40:39 PM
I'm gonna crack that nut just as soon as we are done rebalancing corporate governance.   8)

So....2037ish?   >:D
J/K

This very thing happened to me. I ordered one item that was in stock and it took almost 3 weeks to receive it. Too bad I needed it in 2 weeks. It is my goal to never order from them again because I got the same run around when I contacted them. Sad part was they could charge my card for the purchase the same day order was placed but can't ship for over 2 weeks? And nothing from them even say hey we are sorry it was messed up.

Quote from: Gung Ho on November 16, 2010, 09:34:51 PM

Sad part was they could charge my card for the purchase the same day order was placed but can't ship for over 2 weeks? And nothing from them even say hey we are sorry it was messed up.

You might want to check with your credit card company as well as the consumer division of your state Attorney General's office regarding your credit card being charged and having to wait so long before shipment is actually made and merchandise received.
Don't hold your breathe on apologies.

I know our squadron tries to have the common ribbons, ranks etc on hand in the supply room so this helps our squadron members. 

Frankly Vanguard is inconsistent in customer service and it shouldn't be that difficult for their managers to figure out what is wrong >:D
RM     

A couple years ago, now- I wanted solo wings for a cadet who had solo'ed on the last day of NGA, and our awards banquet would have been the next meeting point we had, I called the big V to see about getting it overnight, or two day, as three day would have been too late.

I got a similar run around in that it was suggested that I call back a half hour later to verify that the shipping option would be possible, and if the item was in stock as the person on the phone said "we don't trust our inventory system".

Then I still couldn't get a confirmation as to if it would actually ship or not. I ended up getting solo wings from the Hock, and since it was a metal device I figured if it wasn't shiny enough, I'd just use the plating machine I have and fix it.

I can call Jameco Electronics at 12PM and get something UPS next day, some lame simple little item, and I bet the electronics place takes way more orders and has multitudes more SKU's than Vanguard.

Yes, something is wrong and it sounds like it's still about the same. Some people report great results, others report not so great. it's like a crap shoot.

I actually dislike Vanguard for reasons other than those discussed.  Last year I received an empty box, that was to contain almost $190.00 of merchandise.  I called them to find out what was going on.  They called me a liar and thief, and said they would never screw up that bad. 

I had Chase (Mastercard) on the phone minutes later filing a fraudulent sale report.  I then contacted my State BBB and filed a complaint.  I take every opportunity to put down Vanguard. 

The customer service woman was terrible to me, and I spoke to her very respectfully and had a legitimate concern.  If this "Corporate Vanguard Guy" or NED wants my order info, please PM me. 

I would never treat a customer the way I was treated.  If I had this many order problems in my business (selling to the FED) I would no longer be a Prime Contractor.   

Whoa, an empty box? That's pretty bad...  :o

At least they didn't send the WRONG stuff!

I've received empty boxes in the past on occasion from UPS. It usually has been along the lines of the box got "squashed" and the item(s) escaped it somewhere in automation.

In the thick of it all, the box may get re-taped by UPS, and sent on it's destination anyway as the receiver and shipper will determine what was actually there and file the claim. The box usually shows some signs of trauma, though. Like one time an Apple II networking card was just plain missing and the box was about an inch shorter than it should have been.


Chopped right off, and the card in it's bubbled antistatic package obviously slid right out of the thing. Corvus Systems promptly replaced it the following Monday when they were notified that the box that came Saturday Delivery was .. shorter and missing it's contents.

Unless VG provided all of their products for free, and delivered them personally at no charge there will always be someone who attributes
every mistake as a part of the anti-membership conspiracy and every success as a random accident.

My last couple of orders from Vanguard have arrived in full and in a timely manner, but for some reason they seem to need to put small items in a huge box.  The last thing I ordered was about 20 cloth grade swatches and a GT badge for some of my members.  It all fit in a 4x6 plastic bag which was placed in a large priority mail box.  I recently bought a used laptop from ebay that came in a smaller box... 

Yeah, Vanguard has an issue with eco-friendly packing. The last order I got (some grade insignia, ribbons, a patch, and some ribbon bars) had a ton of plastic and cardboard in it. Just sayin'...

Wow, they can't win.

First there are complaints because the packaging was too skimpy, and stuff (pins, especially) was getting broken in transit. Now y'all (used very broadly) are complaining because the packaging is too robust.

Quote from: SarDragon on November 28, 2010, 05:42:57 AM
Wow, they can't win.

First there are complaints because the packaging was too skimpy, and stuff (pins, especially) was getting broken in transit. Now y'all (used very broadly) are complaining because the packaging is too robust.

It's not exactly "robust" to throw a few small items into a box that's too large for what it's holding.

They use the "free" packaging to the extreme. ... and charge a pretty premium for shipping..

Now I feel bad.

I was all ready to engage in some cool "Vanguard-Bashing" when I placed a large order.  I ordered a new golf shirt, some nametags for un it members, a bunch of ribbons and some mini-medals.  22 separate categories of items in varying amounts, some with personalization.

I KNEW they'd screw it up.

But yesterday I was surprised to find the UPS man dropping off my package in less than two weeks with a complete order and everything right.  It was even a fairly small box.

Now I can't join with all the other CAPTalkers in whining about VG.  I feel like such an outcast!

My wife made an order on the 28th of Nov. Badges and ribbons, all stock items. We used paypal as the funding source and it charged us on the 29th. Vanguard says the order is processing. We'll see when it actually gets here.

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 04, 2010, 01:17:12 PM
Now I can't join with all the other CAPTalkers in whining about VG.  I feel like such an outcast!

Be ever vigilant in defense of good customer service.  There is a good chance that the horrible stories mentioned in this thread and those discussion NED had with the powers that be had a positive effect.

They know they are being watched and their customer service being recorded.  That is the importance of "speaking up."

As I said before, if Vanguard wants to be "The One and ONLY" they are going to have to earn it.  When a CAP order is placed it had better be sent out proper, and if the situation causes otherwise there had better be honestly and transparency about it.  There had better be no "run around" excuses, lies, half-truths or any other such.  Honesty, if its out of stock, say so.  If its gonna take weeks or months or "I don't know" just say so.

Treat all CAP personnel as "someone special" because, if we have no CHOICE, then THEY have no CHOICE (yes, all caps because those are concepts worth stressing)

Quote from: Major Carrales on December 04, 2010, 06:13:03 PM
Treat all CAP personnel as "someone special" because, if we have no CHOICE, then THEY have no CHOICE (yes, all caps because those are concepts work stressing)

I like your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter Major.

Quote from: Major Carrales on December 04, 2010, 06:13:03 PM
...if we have no CHOICE...

I think it is important to understand that the reason we have no choice is due to a conscious and legally-binding decision by our leadership.

To say that Vanguard owes us service superior to that of its other customers due to what is effectively our decision is somewhat skewed in my opinion. If we wanted some sort of super service in exchange for exclusivity then the time to negotiate that would have been before the agreement was finalized.

Now, I will agree wholeheartedly that any company owes its customers honest, efficient and effective transactions.

Quote from: FlyTiger77 on December 04, 2010, 06:40:09 PM

Quote from: Major Carrales on December 04, 2010, 06:13:03 PM
...if we have no CHOICE...

I think it is important to understand that the reason we have no choice is due to a conscious and legally-binding decision by our leadership.

To say that Vanguard owes us service superior to that of its other customers due to what is effectively our decision is somewhat skewed in my opinion. If we wanted some sort of super service in exchange for exclusivity then the time to negotiate that would have been before the agreement was finalized.

Now, I will agree wholeheartedly that any company owes its customers honest, efficient and effective transactions.

Good, then we agree...

Quote from: Major Carrales on December 04, 2010, 06:54:47 PM

Quote from: FlyTiger77 on December 04, 2010, 06:40:09 PM

Quote from: Major Carrales on December 04, 2010, 06:13:03 PM
...if we have no CHOICE...

I think it is important to understand that the reason we have no choice is due to a conscious and legally-binding decision by our leadership.

To say that Vanguard owes us service superior to that of its other customers due to what is effectively our decision is somewhat skewed in my opinion. If we wanted some sort of super service in exchange for exclusivity then the time to negotiate that would have been before the agreement was finalized.

Now, I will agree wholeheartedly that any company owes its customers honest, efficient and effective transactions.

Good, then we agree...

Only if one of us seriously misread the other's post.

Quote from: FlyTiger77 on December 04, 2010, 07:08:52 PM

Quote from: Major Carrales on December 04, 2010, 06:54:47 PM

Quote from: FlyTiger77 on December 04, 2010, 06:40:09 PM

Quote from: Major Carrales on December 04, 2010, 06:13:03 PM
...if we have no CHOICE...

I think it is important to understand that the reason we have no choice is due to a conscious and legally-binding decision by our leadership.

To say that Vanguard owes us service superior to that of its other customers due to what is effectively our decision is somewhat skewed in my opinion. If we wanted some sort of super service in exchange for exclusivity then the time to negotiate that would have been before the agreement was finalized.

Now, I will agree wholeheartedly that any company owes its customers honest, efficient and effective transactions.

Good, then we agree...

Only if one of us seriously misread the other's post.

My postings en re Vanguard are about more than our relationship with them, but with the idea of outstanding customer service which we as a society and populace have lost hold of.  As a society and populace we have to demand good service and treatment.

The fact that we are beheld to Vanguard simply means we must be more aware and press forward.  This occasion I am sure the "feedback" here, though seemingly negative, is actually part of the process that holds companies to good customer service.  We are called upon do that...as consumers.  I reject the idea that we have to simply "tolerate" the stupidities of some customer service representatives. 

In that your last statement...

QuoteNow, I will agree wholeheartedly that any company owes its customers honest, efficient and effective transactions.

Thus, we agree.

Unless you simply want to argue...at which point, I don't think I want to play.

Quote from: FlyTiger77 on December 04, 2010, 06:40:09 PM

Quote from: Major Carrales on December 04, 2010, 06:13:03 PM
...if we have no CHOICE...

I think it is important to understand that the reason we have no choice is due to a conscious and legally-binding decision by our leadership.

To say that Vanguard owes us service superior to that of its other customers due to what is effectively our decision is somewhat skewed in my opinion. If we wanted some sort of super service in exchange for exclusivity then the time to negotiate that would have been before the agreement was finalized.

Now, I will agree wholeheartedly that any company owes its customers honest, efficient and effective transactions.

Take weeks to get a "stock" order and close to a month just to get a personalized name tag & some name tapes, is NOT what the average mail order consumer experiences from other vendors.  Stock orders out the door in 2 business days or less, special orders out the door in 7 business days or less.  How's that for a "consumer" contract ???
RM   

My last VG order, which was for "stock" items, was delivered four days after I placed it.

I just sent an order.  I am expecting to place a positive message up there within the next few weeks. 

Quote from: Major Carrales on December 05, 2010, 11:50:59 PM
I just sent an order.  I am expecting to place a positive message up there within the next few weeks.

Weeks? Why should it take weeks? Even AAFES ships "in stock" items within 48 hours and "personalized" items within 5 business days.

Quote from: PHall on December 06, 2010, 02:59:04 AM

Quote from: Major Carrales on December 05, 2010, 11:50:59 PM
I just sent an order.  I am expecting to place a positive message up there within the next few weeks.

Weeks? Why should it take weeks? Even AAFES ships "in stock" items within 48 hours and "personalized" items within 5 business days.

Why should it?  Of course it shouldn't, but there are examples of service taking weeks given earlier in the thread.  Also examples of quick service. 

Weeks because it is coming priority mail, there are some nameplates to make and and it is the holiday season.  In anycase, I am used to waiting as many as two weeks for anything I order...it's called sail mail for a reason.

I continue to hope that it will arrive correctly and in reasonable time...if not, there will he heck to pay.

River, thanks for trying to clarify things however, the bias in this thread can be cut with a knife (or axe).  I will report its progress objectively.

Quote from: davidsinn on December 04, 2010, 03:19:21 PM
My wife made an order on the 28th of Nov. Badges and ribbons, all stock items. We used paypal as the funding source and it charged us on the 29th. Vanguard says the order is processing. We'll see when it actually gets here.

Just got the tracking number an hour ago in her email. It's so fresh USPS doesn't have it in their system yet. Eight days is pretty bad but I will give them that it's the holidays so maybe it's just a fluke. Vanguard's site says order is complete but we'll see later this week when it arrives.

Figured I'd tack my rant on.

11/10/10 - placed order consisting of ribbons, ribbon holders, ribbon attachments, IL Wing patches, and a nameplate. Pretty standard stuff, all shown as in stock.

11/12 - order shipped, but wing patches were backordered. No big deal, they were replacements for my personal stash (you know, a random cadet only needs a wing patch, doesn't want to place an order just for it) Got everything else, including the nameplate.

12/9 - made another order, saw patches were still on backorder, called VG. Got a real nice lady who tells me "ILWG is getting a new Wing patch, our vendors have the design, should have it in a week." Told CSR that I wanted to design shipped, as it was just the right number to replace my wing patches on my active uniforms.

12/15 -  called VG again. Got a guy who said that they were waiting on the new design, and that I wouldn't get the patches until after the holidays anyways because their vendors were closed from Thanksgiving to Christmas.

12/15 - emailed Susie Parker, shes says "The new patch has been approved and is in production."

12/28 - called VG yet again,  got another nice lady who said we should be getting them shortly. I asked if they would be sending the the new or the old patch, because I had already told them I wanted the new design. She checked with a supervisor, and she came back and said yes, it will be the new patch.

12/30 - CSR talked to on the 28th emails me to say that my patches are have shipped, nice touch. Shipped by First Class, not my first choice, but ok.

1/7 - finally get the patches! One problem, THEY ARE THE OLD DESIGN! I have not contacted VG, because I got home after 5 eastern on a Friday, so i will not be able to get a hold of anyone until Monday! I am not happy about this.

DN

Quote from: Chief2009 on January 08, 2011, 12:26:29 AM
Figured I'd tack my rant on.

11/10/10 - placed order consisting of ribbons, ribbon holders, ribbon attachments, IL Wing patches, and a nameplate. Pretty standard stuff, all shown as in stock.

11/12 - order shipped, but wing patches were backordered. No big deal, they were replacements for my personal stash (you know, a random cadet only needs a wing patch, doesn't want to place an order just for it) Got everything else, including the nameplate.

12/9 - made another order, saw patches were still on backorder, called VG. Got a real nice lady who tells me "ILWG is getting a new Wing patch, our vendors have the design, should have it in a week." Told CSR that I wanted to design shipped, as it was just the right number to replace my wing patches on my active uniforms.

12/15 -  called VG again. Got a guy who said that they were waiting on the new design, and that I wouldn't get the patches until after the holidays anyways because their vendors were closed from Thanksgiving to Christmas.

12/15 - emailed Susie Parker, shes says "The new patch has been approved and is in production."

12/28 - called VG yet again,  got another nice lady who said we should be getting them shortly. I asked if they would be sending the the new or the old patch, because I had already told them I wanted the new design. She checked with a supervisor, and she came back and said yes, it will be the new patch.

12/30 - CSR talked to on the 28th emails me to say that my patches are have shipped, nice touch. Shipped by First Class, not my first choice, but ok.

1/7 - finally get the patches! One problem, THEY ARE THE OLD DESIGN! I have not contacted VG, because I got home after 5 eastern on a Friday, so i will not be able to get a hold of anyone until Monday! I am not happy about this.

DN

Illinois is getting a new wing patch?

Check out the Illinois Wing page, been on there for a while.

DN

There are only two patches for Illinois wing - the wing patch which has not changed since the 40 or 50's,
(http://www.vanguardmil.com/images/medium/000000CAP0637L_MED.jpg)

and the IL-001 insignia which is approved for wear only by wing staff as their unit patch.
(http://ilcap.org/images/ilwg/ilwg_banner.jpg)
(left)

Dan, you are only authorized to wear the top one.

I had two orders place at and around the holidays...partially as a test.  I was very pleased with the results and will claim they have good service until they mess up.  Consumer's prerogative.

Well, I placed two orders two weeks before Christmas... A Hock Shop order for their final goodbye and a Vanguard order with medium shipping on both. Hock Shop - package at door next morning... Vanguard - arrived two days before Christmas with time for my 6 hour hand-sewing job since my tailor was closed. The items from Vanguard were all quality this time though!

Quote from: addo1 on January 09, 2011, 05:21:58 AM
Well, I placed two orders two weeks before Christmas... A Hock Shop order for their final goodbye and a Vanguard order with medium shipping on both. Hock Shop - package at door next morning... Vanguard - arrived two days before Christmas with time for my 6 hour hand-sewing job since my tailor was closed. The items from Vanguard were all quality this time though!

You should really learn how to use a sewing machine.  I can do my entire set of BDUs (Grade Insignia on Shirt & Hat, COS Patch, Squadron Patch, American Flag, Wing Patch, Nametape, CAP Tape, GTL Badge and Observer wings) in under 25 minutes...just sayin'.

^^^|

+1

Using a sewing machine is not just a girl thing. Guys have been using them in military parachute shops for years. I learned at 15, when my mom got tired of doing all my CAP sewing, and I've done most all of my own sewing since.

If you don't have a machine, they can be gotten used for less than $100.

Handsewing? jeebers.

I had to go to DC for AUSA in October, and we had 2 cadets who did not have SSIs on their Class A jackets.  I happened to have a couple SSIs and threw my portable sewing machine in the trunk of my car.  We got to where we were billeted and the cadets said "Oh, geez, sir, this is going to take all night.."  20 minutes later I had two Class A jackets and an ASU jacket all ready for the next day.

Pffft.  Learning to use a sewing machine is pretty simple, and its a skill that will pay you back quickly.

I need to learn how to hem trousers, thats my next accomplishment.

Ooooouch. The only thing that happens when some of these patches are sewn by hand is pain. Even if you have to use the machine manually by turning the wheel with a thick needle.

But at least you're happy with what Vanguard sent.

Quote from: NIN on January 10, 2011, 02:49:44 AM
Pffft.  Learning to use a sewing machine is pretty simple, and its a skill that will pay you back quickly.

^This

I've made quite the reputation for myself as the encampment tailor (patches only, I can't hem trousers either), reasonable rates if you aren't in a pinch money-wise.  Service while you wait, depending on my workload at the time.

So I ordered some soon to be current name tags for my flight suit as well as tapes for BDUs and rank for said BDUs on Sunday. I opted for the regular USPS shipping since it was the cheapest and I am in no hurry to get any of the stuff (obviously since I'm ordering from VG), and just got an email today saying that my complete order has shipped via UPS 2 day air.  I'm wondering if its gonna be messed up.

My last 2 orders were shipped UPS 2nd Day Air also, but I was only charged USPS Priority rates.

maybe they're trying to better their reputation with CAP?

I placed and order on 1/14. I got a shipped notification today. The notification said USPS, which I had specified, but the tracking number is a UPS number. Since I don't have home mail delivery, I have a PO Box, so that's the address I specified. If Vanguard did send it UPS, I'll never see it since UPS does not deliver to PO boxes.

Haha guys, I am quite familiar with the sewing machine. It just so happens, that my machine was missing a part, and well, the place with the part was also closed. = fail