What happened to:H.R.1333 : To amend the Homeland Security Act of 2002

Started by wingnut, April 23, 2008, 01:29:11 PM

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mikeylikey

Why the crap would we even consider paying Pilots??  Our Name might be Civil AIR Patrol, but in reality, pilots and crewmembers do not make up the majority in the organization.  As soon as DOD or even GAO sees CAP branded money going to pay for Pilots in CAP......I bet CAP would cease to exist the next fiscal year. 

What's up monkeys?

DNall

Quote from: Earhart1971 on May 26, 2008, 09:25:25 PM
I am not eliminating the possibility of pay for CAP Pilots, but for now, we are just not funded correctly for performance of the mission and retention of pilots for the mission.

And the retention numbers reflect the problem.

If you mean funded correctly in terms of we're not providing per diem to offset the cost of volunteering. Okay, but that's not happening. If the govt gave us 100mil next year, we still would not do that. There are to be certain hundreds of things we need to be spending money on & can't afford. We absolutely need a truck load of money at the field level, not just supporting a bigger & bigger HQ. There is a lot we need to do. Changing the nature of the org from pure volunteer to kind of volunteer/kind of compensated is somewhere between not on the table & not going to happen.

Retention is certainly a problem. While you may be right to a degree about some of why it's occurring. There is nothing anyone in any part of CAP can do about that. We can't change our nature from volunteer to semi-reserve. That's not in our power. Congress isn't about to do that either. While you may want millions, the fact is it doesn't exist. There is no ton of money to be had. Giving a penny more to CAP means cutting it from some other deserving program. CAP gets what it deserves in that competition for resources, actually quite a bit more than it deserves thanks to our sponsor.

Earhart1971

DNall, the money and the priority for giving to a good Program exists, and Congress is increasing funding for JROTC, more units and more paid people. JROTC is not the CAP Cadet Program, and I believe CAP deserves equal funding on a scale adequate for all our missions. I am using Cadets as a Yard Stick because, we have mission not carried out by other agencies in a similar fashion.


So, I ask this: Why is not National HQ picking up on this willingness of Congress to increase funding of some Programs and not others. 700 Million or so for just a Cadet Program Mission, and increased funding. My guess is our own Mindset prevents change in our situation.

Why does CAP have to suffer from multi Mission Taskings and 40 Million Total Funding, for a National Program?

Right now, count our Missions, 3 to 10 if you count all the underfunded taskings.

I will ask these questions to Board Members in August I am not Shy.





Earhart1971

Quote from: mikeylikey on May 26, 2008, 10:01:13 PM
Why the crap would we even consider paying Pilots??  Our Name might be Civil AIR Patrol, but in reality, pilots and crewmembers do not make up the majority in the organization.  As soon as DOD or even GAO sees CAP branded money going to pay for Pilots in CAP......I bet CAP would cease to exist the next fiscal year. 



The Bigger Danger is CAP will cease to exist anyway, we are heading down that path now.

If we take on every mission under the sun, without necessary funding, that will happen at light speed.

Just start raising up the flying hours, and adding on missions, and see how long it takes for that to happen.

I compare this to a business that sells it services cheap, then when sales increases, the business goes bankrupt.

RiverAux

I don't know exactly what unfunded missions you think we're taking on now.  If anything, the first words out of our mouths to potential customers lately has been, "and just how will you be reimbursing us for today's mission, sir?  Cash or credit card?"

DNall

Quote from: Earhart1971 on May 27, 2008, 02:43:40 AM
DNall, the money and the priority for giving to a good Program exists, and Congress is increasing funding for JROTC, more units and more paid people. JROTC is not the CAP Cadet Program, and I believe CAP deserves equal funding on a scale adequate for all our missions. I am using Cadets as a Yard Stick because, we have mission not carried out by other agencies in a similar fashion.

You're assuming CAP is a good program, and that Congress believes that. And also that there's unlimited funds to give to similar causes, or that any of this need be fair.

JROTC is the primary under 18 cadet program for each DoD component. It is far more effective in recruitment objectives if only because of scale. It is far more politically popular, again because of scale & the number of communities it touches & public recognition of what it is.

They gain political points with the people back home when they fund JROTC & it accomplishes what they want, which is increased enlistments & greater public support for military service. They get very very little of that on each count by funding CAP.

The time for CAP to act was at the outset of the JROTC movement. We should have way back then interposed ourselves as the parent agency of AFJROTC. That didn't happen & there is no going back.

QuoteSo, I ask this: Why is not National HQ picking up on this willingness of Congress to increase funding of some Programs and not others. 700 Million or so for just a Cadet Program Mission, and increased funding. My guess is our own Mindset prevents change in our situation.

Again you're assuming because they've proposed increasing funds to folks like JROTC & DHS that CAP is also owed something. They don't care about JROTC or DHS. They care about meeting objectives, and right now CAP doesn't get that done. Just because they're passing out some money doesn't mean there's unlimited funds or that we're the right people to give them to.

Certainly they could massively reorg CAP & quadruple the funding, to turn us into something much more useful to the country. It's just as reasonable to disestablish CAP & use those funds/resources on other agencies that are already effective. From here inside the box it seems so clear that CAP is a great thing that deserves so much more support. But, most of the country either doesn't know that or doesn't agree with it.

Quote from: Earhart1971 on May 27, 2008, 05:35:07 AM
The Bigger Danger is CAP will cease to exist anyway, we are heading down that path now. If we take on every mission under the sun, without necessary funding, that will happen at light speed. Just start raising up the flying hours, and adding on missions, and see how long it takes for that to happen. I compare this to a business that sells it services cheap, then when sales increases, the business goes bankrupt.
Again, if the usefulness of CAP actually reaches its end, we will become a drain on the best interests of the country, despite our best efforts. If & when that happens then CAP should be dissolved & a more effective distribution of resources followed. Just like SAC went away when their purpose for being did.

I do think CAP has some serious economic issues to deal with as the mission shifts. That's part of a range of issue sour current & future leadership have to deal with in this historic period. I do think that'll lead to dramatic reorg of the CAP, but it'll remain under the AF, because that's the life blood & no one else is willing to let us drink at such a fountain.

RiverAux

Which objectives is CAP failing to meet that JROTC is meeting?

mikeylikey

JROTC was historically the ROTC program.....getting qualified Soldiers (think Cadets and Officers) into the Military.  When the actual JROTC designation came......it was thought of as a leadership and civic minded program to further the patriotism of youth in the 1950's-70's.  (think Cold War.....and "better dead than Red" type patriotism).  Today it is nothing more than a throwback to that era.  Sure they updated the texts and present wider information resource depths to include Physical Fitness and modern leadership principals, but it is still a throwback.  There is a "recruitment edge", as the actual military Dept. is principally showcased on a daily basis.  I can not accept that many JROTC cadets actually go on to enlist....but then again I have not read that far into the material. 

Lets not forget the name of the Program is Junior Reserve OFFICER Training Corps.  JROTC is NOT producing Officers like the program was originally attended to do.  That is where ROTC comes into play.  Heck.....Most Senior ROTC units (AF/Army/Navy) do not even give course credit for JROTC accomplishments.  You have to get an "official waiver" at most University ROTC units and the unit does not even do the waivering, it is sent to higher HQ. 

JROTC is a tax on our school systems......and an even larger tax on the TAXPAYERS.  I am all in favor of abolishing JROTC for a real Nationwide Civics program to be taught to High Schoolers.  Leave ROTC and its mission of creating Officers for the military at the College and University level, stop paying retired Officers and NCO's $$ in High Schools......and start giving more $$ to programs like CAP that are using the Cadets (as resources) to do more than just sit in a classroom and read about leadership theory.  At least CAP puts its Cadets to work on Ground Teams and has the ability to find other usefull work for them to accomplish in carrying out volunteer activities. 

Sorry....my Rant is OVER

What's up monkeys?

Earhart1971

You guys on your last posts, are missing the point slightly.

JROTC combined is being increased in funding by Congress, I was using that as just a YARD STICK to prove a point. Congress is willing to increase funding for these programs. And they are doing it AGRESSIVELY, almost like a BLITZKRIEG.

It means one thing Money is FLOWING, Money is AVAILABLE, and we need to get our share. We can get our Share, IF WE CAN SELL OUR PROGRAM. 

A window into the mindset of the givers, "CONGRESS", they obviously like these programs. Why is CAP and our Program being overlooked. I do not intend to compete with JROTC. Our Strategy should be cooperation. I am doing that on a local basis.

I gather with JROTC instructors, they see Civil Air Patrol Michell Award Cadets, they understand one thing, CAP has the best Cadet Program in the World. They envy the Culture of the CAP Cadet Program. It cannot be duplicated by JROTC.

So I propose to advance on two fronts, more Money for Cadets and for the Missions.



mikeylikey

^ But it will come down to, "fellow members of Congress, do we fund CAP this year or should we fund JROTC".  The answere will allways be JROTC, mainly because the age of our elected Officials.  They see JROTC as what they had when they were kids.  Unless our elected officials volunteered in CAP, either as a Cadet or Senior, they will only see CAP as one more operation that takes away money from the stuff they want for their State. 

We really need the AF to say "We want to make CAP the Full-time Auxiliary of the USAF, here is our revised operations and oversight plan".  We need USAF to take a real liking to us, and perhaps move in more AF missions.  We should be doing mostly AF assigned missions, and very few state and local agency missions. 

Someone or a group of someones really let the ball slip 1989-1999.  I think it was most likely on the CAP NHQ and Corporate side. 

This bill could have been good for CAP.  I speak all the time to those that were there when it was being pushed around originally, and it was supposed to be more than what we have now.  We really had a chance to get in a good bill, but someone (or once again, a group of someones) really jacked it up.     
What's up monkeys?

DNall

Quote from: mikeylikey on May 27, 2008, 05:21:26 PM
JROTC was historically the ROTC program.....getting qualified Soldiers (think Cadets and Officers) into the Military. .... I can not accept that many JROTC cadets actually go on to enlist....but then again I have not read that far into the material. 

JUNIOR ROTC is meant to be a feeder system for SENIOR ROTC, which is the officer producing program. Like CAP, JROTC does not have an explicitly (publicly) stated objective of putting people in the military. However, many many times more people enter the military each year from JROTC programs than from CAP. That is principally a function of their MUCH greater size. I think CAP actually performs much better on a percentage basis, but percentages don't meet black & white yearly recruiting quotas. JROTC has some very strong metrics to demonstrate their real impact on that front, and that translates to funding. CAP is not capable of matching that, even if 100% of our cadets in each year group enter the military.

QuoteJROTC is a tax on our school systems......and an even larger tax on the TAXPAYERS.  I am all in favor of abolishing JROTC for a real Nationwide Civics program to be taught to High Schoolers.  Leave ROTC and its mission of creating Officers for the military at the College and University level, stop paying retired Officers and NCO's $$ in High Schools......and start giving more $$ to programs like CAP that are using the Cadets (as resources) to do more than just sit in a classroom and read about leadership theory.  At least CAP puts its Cadets to work on Ground Teams and has the ability to find other usefull work for them to accomplish in carrying out volunteer activities.

The CAP cadet program does not utilize cadets as resources. Cadets MAY participate in other aspects of CAP (meaning ES) IF & ONLY IF they are first accomplishing everything they can in the cadet program. That means they have to stay on track with promotions. If they could promote faster by doing less ES, then they are required to do less ES & focus on the cadet program. They are not intended to be resources. That's just bonus for us & them.

I don't think JROTC is the best thing going. I think CAP is far superior in a lot of ways, but JROTC is the program DoD is backing (to the exclusion of CAP), and that won't change. I don't think it is a drain so much as you say. I think it does a decent job of reinforcing personal discipline & motivating young people to fight for their goals in life. As with everything else, CAP is much less consistent & impacts much fewer people.

Quote from: Earhart1971 on May 27, 2008, 06:00:03 PM
JROTC combined is being increased in funding by Congress, I was using that as just a YARD STICK to prove a point. Congress is willing to increase funding for these programs. And they are doing it AGRESSIVELY, almost like a BLITZKRIEG.

They are funding THOSE programs in particular because THEY are the lead cadet program sponsored by DoD components. CAP is not & will not be. It is not about which program is better. They reach more people & result in more political capital when funded. CAP loses that battle on every front.

The difference between where we are now & a 100k+ cadet program is NOT funding. It's us. It's not at all hard to recruit cadets. If we got our crap together as an org then we could easily reach out & grow as much as we want, in theory. Money might make that a little easier, but it's not inhibiting us from getting there. If you want money to support 100k cadets, recruit them & the money will follow. It doesn't work the other way around.

QuoteIt means one thing Money is FLOWING, Money is AVAILABLE, and we need to get our share. We can get our Share, IF WE CAN SELL OUR PROGRAM. 

Again, money is NOT flowing & NOT available. Just because one org is getting higher funding does not mean there's a competition on for those dollars. They aren't getting that money to run a cadet program. They're getting it because they are already successful at producing public support for the military & in recruiting. If CAP wants more funding, then they need to raise their public recognition & massively grow their program, and do so with what you got.

QuoteA window into the mindset of the givers, "CONGRESS", they obviously like these programs. Why is CAP and our Program being overlooked. I do not intend to compete with JROTC. Our Strategy should be cooperation. I am doing that on a local basis.
They don't care in the slightest about these programs. They care about results for their investment. And they care when funding results in votes. If you have 100 people in a CAP unit, you aren't swinging an election. If you have three HS JROTC units, with the parents of each of those 60-100 kids, it makes a difference.


DNall

Quote from: mikeylikey on May 27, 2008, 06:49:52 PM
^ But it will come down to, "fellow members of Congress, do we fund CAP this year or should we fund JROTC".  The answere will allways be JROTC, mainly because the age of our elected Officials.  They see JROTC as what they had when they were kids.  Unless our elected officials volunteered in CAP, either as a Cadet or Senior, they will only see CAP as one more operation that takes away money from the stuff they want for their State. 

We really need the AF to say "We want to make CAP the Full-time Auxiliary of the USAF, here is our revised operations and oversight plan".  We need USAF to take a real liking to us, and perhaps move in more AF missions.  We should be doing mostly AF assigned missions, and very few state and local agency missions. 

Someone or a group of someones really let the ball slip 1989-1999.  I think it was most likely on the CAP NHQ and Corporate side. 

This bill could have been good for CAP.  I speak all the time to those that were there when it was being pushed around originally, and it was supposed to be more than what we have now.  We really had a chance to get in a good bill, but someone (or once again, a group of someones) really jacked it up.     

That's all correct.

It would be fine with me if Congress/AF moved to merge the CAP cadet program & AFJROTC. With one being the in school variety & the other being an out of school alternative, but both being the same program with the same oversight.

I think we were talking more about mission though...

Earhart1971

It would take another thread to explain, but CAP is the superior Cadet Program, not JROTC. None of JROTC Programs come close to the CAP Cadet Program. That would take another long thread to explain. The only advantage they have is better funding. I have got into the programs deep locally, I know all of their problems, and we are perfectly positioned to help them or save them.

Combining programs might make sense, or even better the Air Force fades out of the Cadet Program Business and we use their instructors to teach the CAP Program, and our own Instructors. Funding shifts, and Admin all combined and then we could really go to town.



DNall

Quote from: Earhart1971 on May 28, 2008, 02:59:21 AM
It would take another thread to explain, but CAP is the superior Cadet Program, not JROTC. None of JROTC Programs come close to the CAP Cadet Program. That would take another long thread to explain. The only advantage they have is better funding. I have got into the programs deep locally, I know all of their problems, and we are perfectly positioned to help them or save them.

It has nothing to do with quality. That's not even a factor being considered by anyone. And, there is no competition. They are the primary under-18 cadet program of the AF, because JROTC is likewise the primary cadet program of the other services. DoD wants to support each service's cadet program in balance with the others according to the scale of the service. They prefer to do that within the framework of equiv programs (JROTC vs NJROTC vs AFJROTC vs MJROTC) instead of bringing alternatives like CAP into the mix in any significant way. If the AF really really wanted to, they could probably cut back on AFJROTC & put more of that money to CAP, but dividing resources is not as efficient as keeping it in one basket.

As far as the two programs, they each have pros & cons. I think CAP cadets are going to be much more committed by the nature of them doing it on their own time & money versus in school getting a grade. That really accounts for the great majority of the difference. Having kids in front of you five days a week is a huge advantage on their side though, and the consistency of well trained instructors & a well monitored consistently delivered program. It's hard to say either program is really that much greater than the other. They ultimately have a great deal in common.

QuoteCombining programs might make sense, or even better the Air Force fades out of the Cadet Program Business and we use their instructors to teach the CAP Program, and our own Instructors. Funding shifts, and Admin all combined and then we could really go to town.
I don't even know what that means. If they get out of the cadet program business then there is no funding, and there are no instructors to teach our cadets or adults.

I do think a high quality cadet programs officer basic course (much more than TLC) is something we really need to look at. I do think we could use significant support from AF, AETC, AU, & AFROTC on that.

I also think that while it's very inconsistent & there are some worthless people out there, that there are also some very superb cadet programs officers out there doing a much better job than many AFJROTC instructors.

Overall, money really is not the answer. Not for the cadet program for sure. Recruiting thousands more cadets & operating a consistent quality program is the answer there.

For missions, we don't need a new sugar daddy (DHS) either. We can do some stuff for them, but not really that much given what we have right now. We really need to push our mission expansion more to the AF & adapt that way. That's where the money is for us. Not so much in other alternatives that are not as supportive.

Earhart1971

I am concerned with the success of Civil Air Patrol and I can get the money, watch it happen, National needs to appoint a member committee to go see Congress. I volunteer for that.

JROTC by the way is hurting, and they are funded, they made a tactical mistake in setting up the program years ago, and its hard to restructure.

CAP has a great program for parents that can afford to buy kids uniforms and equipment.

Funding is the difference between the two programs, and NOTHING ELSE. I could recruit a 100 Cadet Squadron if I offered free uniforms, and free everything like JROTC. As it is I have recruited the largest Squadron in Florida Wing, due to enhanced AFJROTC-CAP Cooperation on a local level.

In school programs are the future, and better funding of Mission Operations should be pursued.

DNall

^ You don't think there's a hundred people advocating CAP items to congress on an almost daily basis? You don't think Congress has heard this? They know they issues and have made an informed decision to support JROTC as the lead under-18 program. I explained to you why. If you don't want to except that explanation then that's up to you.

As far as advocating to congress. I hope you understand that we need a single voice there, or rather a unified message. If they get hundreds of different versions of a CAP agenda thrown at them, no momentum will build to back any of them. We have a legislative liaison, and we have a national command structure. They are supposed to be in front of congress. The only role any of us need to play in that picture is behind the scenes quietly advocating in support of what they decide the org needs to ask for. Anything else is counter productive & tends to result in less funding.

We do offer free blues uniforms, paid by the AF, same as JROTC. All JROTC does differently is the school district fronts the money to purchase the items, & the govt reimburses, so they have adequate serviceable items in stock.

If you want to create that situation, start a school program with tens or hundreds of thousands in school district funding & you'll be all set. That's already going on in LtCol Leveque's unit.

I'm not sure what things are like in your area, but the reasons people join or don't join around here have almost nothing to do with access to uniforms or even money in general. The issues are much more related to programming and consistent quality instructors/supervisors. Funding would certainly help on that front, but it's not the defining issue. The bigger deal is we need many many more professional adult cadet programs officers with the time, training, mentoring from above, and personal abilities to operate the program.

You say you're already operating an joint AFJROTC-CAP program. Well that's great. There's provision for that in the CAP system & it's not regularly used now days. I got no problem with adding such units all over the country. That really doesn't change a lot about CAP. It certainly doesn't shift funding from those JROTC programs to CAP. It just means you may have some more kids to participate in some stuff. Generally in my experience though, such cadets are primarily JROTC cadets who are using CAP for the extra benefits.

As far as in-school being the future. I'm really not so sure about that. JROTC, for better or worse, has a handle on that already. There isn't a need for CAP to move in on that territory, and I certainly don't want to be the junior-JROTC. I think there's a great need to service kids that don't have access to JROTC programs. That means a lot of rural programs, which is good because it increases our geographic coverage for ES purposes, and it means private & home school kids. The AF is still funding the CAP cadet program in order to impact those populations that JROTC doesn't have the capture opportunity over. Rolling up in school falsely pushes up numbers, but it takes away that primary purpose the AF is looking at.


Earhart1971

DNall we are at the limit of what can be discussed on this thread.

In person, I would have you agreeing with me, and also, nobody at National thinks CAP can get any money. Nothing more than we get now.

Come on down to Florida in August, and we head out for a Beer, I will have some people on the ground that will give you an ear full.

MIKE

Mike Johnston