Woodland BDU's reclassified as "CAP-distinctive?"

[Eclipse]

There was some talk about NHQ keeping a small supply (about 50K) worth of uniforms on hand so they could send the cadet a "new cadet kit" that included books, nameplate, cutouts, flight cap insignia, and uniform...but then you have to either hire someone to handle the logistical realities of it or make it an "additional duty" which still costs money...

I'll do it for cost.

Send me the stuff, a way to get nameplates made, and a Fed Ex account #.

VG could do this without adding anyone - just put together 1 page for the sizes and the name, or do it internally direct from the applications.

[RADIOMAN015]

No matter what the military uses, woodland BDUs will always be the camo that everyone assumes is military. Therefore, people will always assume we are military.

A lot of members in CAP love to play "Army", so to speak with their camoflauged BDU's, looking just like an invading Army as they perform their "Missions for America" in their local communities.

However, from a practical standpoint, these uniforms can be a lot less expensive (sometimes even free) than the other alternatives (especially the AF Blue uniform combos).

A few years back, our wing rep to the state PD S&R division, was told by officials that they would prefer to see our members in the Blue BDUS rather than the camoflauged BDU's.  Guess it seemed pretty silly to them that we needed to be disguised in the woods rather than very visible, which is somewhat mitigated by wearing an orange or bright lime vest.  Additionally one of the state police's special response teams utilizes camoflagued BDU's, so I guess they didn't want to have ANY confusion.
RM

[PHall]

A lot of members in CAP love to play "Army", so to speak with their camoflauged BDU's, looking just like an invading Army as they perform their "Missions for America" in their local communities.
RM

That's a rather bold statement, you have some kind of proof to back that up?

[lordmonar]

OK. I was wrong, but it still comes down to funding, and how long it takes to get uniforms to the cadets.

My girls joined in August....the got their FCU's in about 3 weeks.

Granted right around Sept-OCT there is usually a stop gap because of spending freezes at the USAF....but if it is taking 3 months...someone needs to be on the phone with national and see what the problem is.

[lordmonar]

If we are going to have a CAP distinctive uniform......why not just go with the BBDU's?  They are just a cheap as the BDUs.  In 5 years or so there will no longer be any BDUs to be had from DRMO sources.  So in the long run it will just be the same thing.

Functionally there is no need to be in anysort of camo out in the field.  BBDUs look pretty good IMHO.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

If we are going to have a CAP distinctive uniform......why not just go with the BBDU's?  They are just a cheap as the BDUs.  In 5 years or so there will no longer be any BDUs to be had from DRMO sources.  So in the long run it will just be the same thing.

Functionally there is no need to be in anysort of camo out in the field.  BBDUs look pretty good IMHO.

I agree with you about the camo issue.

However, YMMV with the availability/cost issue.  My local Army/Navy store does not stock BBDU's, but they do have quite a few Woodland BDU's in stock from brand new to used-but-you-can't-tell-it at dirt cheap prices.

[PHall]

If we are going to have a CAP distinctive uniform......why not just go with the BBDU's?  They are just a cheap as the BDUs.  In 5 years or so there will no longer be any BDUs to be had from DRMO sources.  So in the long run it will just be the same thing.

Functionally there is no need to be in anysort of camo out in the field.  BBDUs look pretty good IMHO.

Pat, you weren't around when CAP made the transition to BDU's from the Olive Drab Fatigues.
There was a lot of people making a big deal how wearing camouflage would make us "combatants".
Last time I checked, we're still "noncombatants", even with the camouflage.
Of course Chaplains and Medics wear camouflage too and nobody tells them that wearing camouflage makes them a combatant.

[lordmonar]

If we are going to have a CAP distinctive uniform......why not just go with the BBDU's?  They are just a cheap as the BDUs.  In 5 years or so there will no longer be any BDUs to be had from DRMO sources.  So in the long run it will just be the same thing.

Functionally there is no need to be in anysort of camo out in the field.  BBDUs look pretty good IMHO.

Pat, you weren't around when CAP made the transition to BDU's from the Olive Drab Fatigues.
There was a lot of people making a big deal how wearing camouflage would make us "combatants".
Last time I checked, we're still "noncombatants", even with the camouflage.
Of course Chaplains and Medics wear camouflage too and nobody tells them that wearing camouflage makes them a combatant.

Well....by my read of the LOAC....we are combatants no matter what uniforms we wear. 

Our Genevia convention status has nothing to do with my thinking.  Taking the woodland BDU as our corporate field uniform solves no problems in the long run.

As a SAR uniform it is not the best choice.
We already have  a corporate field uniform.
By ditching the BDU's, it would make it all the easier to get the ABUs in the future.

[wuzafuzz]

Hurl.  Let the BDU die out, it looks horrid with the ultramarine sew-ons anyway.  Heck, it'll also clean up those uniforms that still have obsolete wing patches and CAP letters on the collars.

No I don't have BBDU's.  I'd have to buy some.

[Eclipse]

it'll also clean up those uniforms that still have obsolete wing patches and CAP letters on the collars.

?

Misunderstanding or misstatement?

Wing patches are still authorized (required in some wings) at the wearer's option, and CAP cutouts are still worn by SMWOG's on both field variants.

[wuzafuzz]

it'll also clean up those uniforms that still have obsolete wing patches and CAP letters on the collars.

?

Misunderstanding or misstatement?

Wing patches are still authorized (required in some wings) at the wearer's option, and CAP cutouts are still worn by SMWOG's on both field variants.

Neither.  My wing changed patches many moons ago, but people still show up wearing them from time to time.  CAP cutouts still show up on the opposite collar from the grade insignia on SM's with grade.  No longer proper, but it happens.

[Eclipse]

^ Yes, sad, isn't it?

I still see way too many people with the wrong MAJCOM, or worse, the CAP seal on flight suits, and every once in a while
someone shows up with a wing patch on their shirt or service coat.

We'll have a new round of "wrongs" in March with the sundown of "US CAP" on field uniforms.

[Pylon]

The US Army controls the rights to the Woodland BDU pattern that was/is in use (through the Army's permission) by the various US Armed Forces.  Much like the US Marines, for example, control the rights to the MARPAT.  Even if the Marines stopped using MARPAT and went with a new pattern, that wouldn't mean that another organization could come along and say "While, since they're not using MARPAT anymore, it's not an official uniform and therefore we can do with it whatever we wish".  Doesn't work like that.

The US Army still retains the exclusive rights to the woodland BDU pattern, whether or not any part of the US government is or is not actively using the pattern.

[Eclipse]

^ Do you have any sort of cite on that?  MARPAT might be patented, but I doubt woodland is, and it wouldn't be hard to
adjust the shaping to elude the patent.

Edit:  My own quick checks shows MARPAT has a patent, but not ERDL, which is what M81 Woodland is based off of.
The Army may have developed it, but that doesn't mean they control it.  My guess would be that their lack of patent on
ERDL is why the have sought to control the next-gen stuff, since the M81 is all over the world, now.

Here's more than you could possibly be interested in regarding world-wide camo use:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_camouflage_patterns

Wiki says in the US its still in use by:

US Air Force, US Navy, US Coast Guard, Civil Air Patrol,United States Naval Sea Cadet Corps,US Public Health Service, State Defense Forces, LAPD SWAT

And worldwide in at least these countries:

Afghanistan, Albania, Argentina, Bangladesh, Bolivia, Bosnia, Chile, Colombia, Croatia, Ecuador, Estonia, Ethiopia, Guatemala, Honduras, Iran, Israel, Italy, Ivory Coast, Jamaica, Jordan, Latvia, Lebanon, Libya, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Macedonia, Mexico, Morocco, Netherlands (RNLMC), Nicaragua, Nigeria, Oman, Pakistan, Paraguay, Peru, Russia, Sierra Leone, Slovakia, Slovenia, South Korea, Spain, Sudan, Syria, Thailand, Turkey, Venezuela

Edit #2:  7000 Posts!  (just noticed)

[lordmonar]

Even if it is patented does not mean they "control" it...only that they get royalties off its future uses.

The control that you are looking for is the USC that says that civilians can't use military uniforms.  So once the BDU is no longer an official USAF uniform then the USAF would loose control of it.

Having said that......I still don't think CAP should adopt it as our corporate field uniform.

Except as otherwise provided by law, no person except a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, as the case may be, may wear—
(1) the uniform, or a distinctive part of the uniform, of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps; or
(2) a uniform any part of which is similar to a distinctive part of the uniform of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps.

[Eclipse]

Even if it is patented does not mean they "control" it...only that they get royalties off its future uses.

When you patent something, you control it - if you decide your "whatever" can only be used in "x" fashion, that's your call, including
not selling or licensing it.  That's been an issue with medicines.   Being that the Army is a government agency, ultimately tax-payer funded, I don't know if that changes the dynamic somewhat, but when you patent something its yours to share, or not.

Regardless, I agree woodland camo is a poor choice as a corporate alternative.  why we had it to start was understandable, but to keep it doesn't make any sense.  The only reason to stay with woodland, or adopt the ABU is affinity with the USAF, otherwise it doesn't make any sense.

[wuzafuzz]

Even if it is patented does not mean they "control" it...only that they get royalties off its future uses.

The control that you are looking for is the USC that says that civilians can't use military uniforms.  So once the BDU is no longer an official USAF uniform then the USAF would loose control of it.

Having said that......I still don't think CAP should adopt it as our corporate field uniform.

Except as otherwise provided by law, no person except a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, as the case may be, may wear—
(1) the uniform, or a distinctive part of the uniform, of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps; or
(2) a uniform any part of which is similar to a distinctive part of the uniform of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps.

Hmmm, I'm certainly no lawyer, but I'm thinking anyone could successfully argue that once half the planet started wearing BDU's they are no longer a distinctive part of the Army, Air Force, etc, uniform.  The new uniforms, sure, but BDU's lost any distinctiveness a long time ago.  Had the military protested when cops, sheriffs, etc started wearing them it might be another story.

The Air Force can still tell CAP what to wear, which trumps our discussion.

[lordmonar]

Hmmm, I'm certainly no lawyer, but I'm thinking anyone could successfully argue that once half the planet started wearing BDU's they are no longer a distinctive part of the Army, Air Force, etc, uniform.  The new uniforms, sure, but BDU's lost any distinctiveness a long time ago.  Had the military protested when cops, sheriffs, etc started wearing them it might be another story.

The Air Force can still tell CAP what to wear, which trumps our discussion.

Just because the government chooses not to enforce the law...does not mean they can't.  If someone puts on a set of BDU's and tries to get on base you can bet 711 will get used.....but the DoD is not going to go after the local cops, or Jim Bob for wearing BDUs out hunting.

Either way....come 2011 when the BDUs are no longer a military uniform.....then the DoD can't do anything...even if the wanted to.

[Pumbaa]

Patents have a limited shelf life.  There is an expiration.  Copyright is another story. That has a much longer shelf life.

Think drug patents vs generics.

[Rotorhead]

Even if it is patented does not mean they "control" it...only that they get royalties off its future uses.

The control that you are looking for is the USC that says that civilians can't use military uniforms.  So once the BDU is no longer an official USAF uniform then the USAF would loose control of it.

Having said that......I still don't think CAP should adopt it as our corporate field uniform.

Except as otherwise provided by law, no person except a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, as the case may be, may wear—
(1) the uniform, or a distinctive part of the uniform, of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps; or
(2) a uniform any part of which is similar to a distinctive part of the uniform of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps.

Hmmm, I'm certainly no lawyer, but I'm thinking anyone could successfully argue that once half the planet started wearing BDU's they are no longer a distinctive part of the Army, Air Force, etc, uniform.  The new uniforms, sure, but BDU's lost any distinctiveness a long time ago.  Had the military protested when cops, sheriffs, etc started wearing them it might be another story.

The Air Force can still tell CAP what to wear, which trumps our discussion.

I imagine the reason we wear BDUs (i.e., as an Air Force style uniform) now is because we lobbied the USAF at some point for the "right" to do so.

If we decided that BBDUs were more appropriate, I can't believe USAF would object.