Woodland BDU's reclassified as "CAP-distinctive?"

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I have nothing to base this on, but is there any possibility that at some point BDU's will be reclassified as "CAP-distinctive," or at least exempt from H/W requirements?

The Air Force is issuing the ABU, and I don't see CAP getting it anytime soon, at least not until it's percolated through the active, AFRES and ANG.  I do see some AF personnel still wearing the BDU, but for how long?

The Army is issuing the ACU.  I couldn't tell you the last time I saw a Soldier wearing BDU's.

The Navy has the Navy Working Uniform.

The Marines have had the MARPAT for some time.

To the best of my knowledge, the only combat service still using the Woodland BDU's are certain Coast Guard personnel, though I see some police agencies wearing them; i.e., eradicating pot fields, and some State Guards.

I don't see how CAP-badged woodland BDU's could be confused with any of those.

Just curious.

[jimmydeanno]

I was just at the Hanscom AFB, MA MCSS and wouldn't you know it...they've two racks (10 feet long) of BDUs set up.  Seems to be a significant amount for a uniform that is being phased out.  The time before they didn't have any in the entire store.

Perhaps they've come across some excess inventory or something...

I don't think that BDUs will become "CAP Distinctive" anytime soon, either way.

[Eclipse]

Suggested a lot on this board, nothing in the channel publicly at the NHQ level in that regard.  Won't be possible until after the sundown
of BDU's in 2011.

The USAF and Navy still wears BDU's everyday all over the world.

[PHall]

I was just at the Hanscom AFB, MA MCSS and wouldn't you know it...they've two racks (10 feet long) of BDUs set up.  Seems to be a significant amount for a uniform that is being phased out.  The time before they didn't have any in the entire store.

Perhaps they've come across some excess inventory or something...

I don't think that BDUs will become "CAP Distinctive" anytime soon, either way.

It's nice that you have BDU's in the MCSS there at Hanscom because, to the best of my knowledge, there are none available in any Air Force MCSS on the west coast.
I've heard that that there may be some available at some Naval Bases, but for how long?

Out here if you need BDU's it's either the surplus stores or the internet.

[Eclipse]

I've heard that that there may be some available at some Naval Bases, but for how long?

On my last trip (about 2 weeks ago), the BDU racks had been restocked with NWU parts, and the remaining
BDU's relegated to a back wall - probably 4 linear feet of one rack or less.

Out here if you need BDU's it's either the surplus stores or the internet.

Which for 99% of CAP members is the only source, anyway.

[JK657]

I was just at Travis AFB today checking out the MCSS and there was a full aisle dedicated to BDUs. Plenty of all sizes to go around... I still see maybe 10 to 15% of the airmen around the base wearing BDUs. Mainly lower enlisted.

YMMV

[RiverAux]

I did a thread on this a while back, but IIRC no one bought the premise that the BDU would cease to be within AF control after it no longer was an AF uniform. 

[flyguy06]

BDU's are totally out of the Army system. have been since 2007

[AndrewA74]

Wrong, the Special Forces still use them, but they use whatever they want. No matter what the military uses, woodland BDUs will always be the camo that everyone assumes is military. Therefore, people will always assume we are military.

[Eclipse]

No matter what the military uses, woodland BDUs will always be the camo that everyone assumes is military.

Give it 5 years past the last regular wear by a combatant service and people will forget - they will then become part of the collective memory in the way that pickle suits are owned by Vietnam and Pinks belong to WWII.

BDU's basically belong to Desert Storm in the collective consciousness.

[AndrewA74]

No matter what the military uses, woodland BDUs will always be the camo that everyone assumes is military.

Give it 5 years past the last regular wear by a combatant service and people will forget - they will then become part of the collective memory in the way that pickle suits are owned by Vietnam and Pinks belong to WWII.

BDU's basically belong to Desert Storm in the collective consciousness.

True...but I don't think it will become CAP distinctive as long as it was once worn by the military. But that raises another question, Coast Guard wear the BBDUs, so should we make those Non-CAP-Distinctive and subject them to W/H requirements?
Andrew

[Eclipse]

But that raises another question, Coast Guard wear the BBDUs, so should we make those Non-CAP-Distinctive and subject them to W/H requirements?

We're not part of the Coast Guard, and if we followed their Aux's SOP, we wouldn't be subject to H/W at all.

The Navy also wears a variant of both the blue field uniform and the blue jumpsuit.

The issue isn't being distinctive from anything that remotely resembles a military uniform, its being distinctive from the USAF.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

True...but I don't think it will become CAP distinctive as long as it was once worn by the military. But that raises another question, Coast Guard wear the BBDUs, so should we make those Non-CAP-Distinctive and subject them to W/H requirements?
Andrew

What the Coast Guard and its Auxiliary wear is the Operational Duty Uniform.  It is not the same as the BBDU's.

Also, I should clarify: Maybe "CAP-distinctive" is the wrong term.  What I mean is that, given their inevitable (however slow) phase-out from USAF service, Woodland BDU's could be removed from H/W requirements.

[Eclipse]

What the Coast Guard and its Auxiliary wear is the Operational Duty Uniform.  It is not the same as the BBDU's.

The only difference is the lack of lower pockets on the shirt.  Now that its being worn untucked again, from 30 feet its the same uniform.

[cap235629]

True...but I don't think it will become CAP distinctive as long as it was once worn by the military. But that raises another question, Coast Guard wear the BBDUs, so should we make those Non-CAP-Distinctive and subject them to W/H requirements?
Andrew

What the Coast Guard and its Auxiliary wear is the Operational Duty Uniform.  It is not the same as the BBDU's.

Also, I should clarify: Maybe "CAP-distinctive" is the wrong term.  What I mean is that, given their inevitable (however slow) phase-out from USAF service, Woodland BDU's could be removed from H/W requirements.

who exactly are you trying to hide from?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

who exactly are you trying to hide from?

Please clarify, Lieutenant.

[cap235629]

The purpose for camouflage is concealment.  Why do we need to conceal ourselves? The camouflage pattern uniforms have "cool" factor, nothing else.  When the ABU's are worn in CAP I will allow the whole parent service argument but I cannot understand for the life of me why we need camouflage when the very first thing we do if in fact we go to the woods on a mission is don a vest of blazing orange! Stick to the BBDU

[Hawk200]

The purpose for camouflage is concealment.  Why do we need to conceal ourselves? The camouflage pattern uniforms have "cool" factor, nothing else.  When the ABU's are worn in CAP I will allow the whole parent service argument but I cannot understand for the life of me why we need camouflage when the very first thing we do if in fact we go to the woods on a mission is don a vest of blazing orange! Stick to the BBDU

It still amazes me that people ask this question when the reasoning has been explained numerous times before.

If you don't like it, don't wear it. If you don't like the para-military nature of CAP, find someplace else to volunteer your time.

Pretty simple choices.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The purpose for camouflage is concealment.  Why do we need to conceal ourselves? The camouflage pattern uniforms have "cool" factor, nothing else.  When the ABU's are worn in CAP I will allow the whole parent service argument but I cannot understand for the life of me why we need camouflage when the very first thing we do if in fact we go to the woods on a mission is don a vest of blazing orange! Stick to the BBDU

Thank you, Lieutenant.  I thought that's what you might be getting at, but I didn't want to assume anything.

Actually, you and I aren't too far apart on this.  I've often wondered why do we need camouflage as well, and I actually think the BBDU's look nicer with our insignia, though I'd tweak it a bit so that the insignia matches the blue cloth (like the dark-blue Captain's bars I have on my utility jumpsuit).  And, personally, I'm not sure why we need the ABU, though of course we'll wear it IAW established practice.

But my point is that the Woodland BDU's are a lot easier in most cases to obtain (YMMV) than the BBDU's.

The local Army/Navy doesn't carry the BBDU's at all...the proprietor told me "we don't have enough asking for them for me to keep them in stock."

However, he's got racks full of new black BDU's (police and some ES use them) and both new and used Woodland BDU's...he's got used ones in like-new condition priced that you can get a full set and not fork over more than $50 (including field jacket).

Also, many squadrons (mine among them) are the recipients of generosity from ROTC, ANG and AFRES units who donate them, and we are grateful for that.

I know quite a few members who could get a decent set of Woodland BDU's at no cost if not for the H/W issues.

[cap235629]

The purpose for camouflage is concealment.  Why do we need to conceal ourselves? The camouflage pattern uniforms have "cool" factor, nothing else.  When the ABU's are worn in CAP I will allow the whole parent service argument but I cannot understand for the life of me why we need camouflage when the very first thing we do if in fact we go to the woods on a mission is don a vest of blazing orange! Stick to the BBDU

It still amazes me that people ask this question when the reasoning has been explained numerous times before.

If you don't like it, don't wear it. If you don't like the para-military nature of CAP, find someplace else to volunteer your time.

Pretty simple choices.

where in my post did I imply that I had a problem with the para-military nature of CAP?
how does dressing like a bush wearing an orange apron make you any more "para-military" than wearing BBDU's?

Do not assume. The missions and the para-military nature of the organization is EXACTLY why I joined. I am an honorably discharged disabled veteran who as a result of my service connected disability cannot meet H/W standards. I wear the BBDU because I have to, and quite honestly if I can ever meet H/W I will probably continue to wear them as I do not want to be confused with an Air Force Officer. Now not assuming anything on my part, but I bet there are those among us that in fact want to wear AF style uniforms for the very reason I do not....

This attitude has caused many a problem with Ma Blue as evidenced by the many edicts from above over the years.  You can run an incredibly military minded program and wear a distinctive uniform of the organization you are actually a part of.  Cadets should stay in AF uniforms.  I think all seniors should be transitioned over to a distinctive yet militarily equivalent uniform and ditch the AF uniforms all together.  If we lose members because of it, then we know which group from above that they fall into....

[flyguy06]

Weearing BDU's has nothing to do withthe ES mission of CAP. Again, peole want to tie everything we do back to ES. We wear the BDU's because it used to be the USAF utility uniform. And we are an aux of the USAF. It has nothing to do with going to the woods on a SAR mission.

[cap235629]

The BDU uniform is a utility/field uniform. It should serve NO OTHER purpose. When was the last time you saw someone wearing service dress on a SAR mission?  BDU's are not even ISSUED to cadets by national, they are either locally procured through DRMO or purchased locally.  Everyone getting together in their "cool" looking BDU's for a weekly squadron meeting is silly. What purpose does it serve? Why is an indoor environment with climate controls an area that precludes wearing service dress? Get serious, the BDU's serve a purpose, but they do not have to be worn at a squadron meeting.

[davidsinn]

Everyone getting together in their "cool" looking BDU's for a weekly squadron meeting is silly. What purpose does it serve?

Excuse me but it gets my cadets into a uniform in their first three weeks and allows them to start promoting vs having to wait God alone knows how long to get their free blues. They are also cheaper to kit out.

I come from an area that is one of the hardest hit by the recession that's not in the state of Michigan and most of my cadets can't afford all of the stuff that goes on a blues uniform. Heck the shoes alone cost more than the insignia and boots for BDUs.

[cap235629]

^^^ I was referring to senior members^^^

[davidsinn]

^^^ I was referring to senior members^^^

So we match the cadets?

[cap235629]

^^^ I was referring to senior members^^^

So we match the cadets?

Why is this important when half of your seniors cannot? Here we go again, some pigs are more equal than others

[RiverAux]

The BDU uniform is a utility/field uniform. It should serve NO OTHER purpose. When was the last time you saw someone wearing service dress on a SAR mission?  BDU's are not even ISSUED to cadets by national, they are either locally procured through DRMO or purchased locally.  Everyone getting together in their "cool" looking BDU's for a weekly squadron meeting is silly. What purpose does it serve? Why is an indoor environment with climate controls an area that precludes wearing service dress? Get serious, the BDU's serve a purpose, but they do not have to be worn at a squadron meeting.

Hmm, your cadets are out drilling in blues at every meeting?  Pretty hard in winter....

[davidsinn]

^^^ I was referring to senior members^^^

So we match the cadets?

Why is this important when half of your seniors cannot? Here we go again, some pigs are more equal than others

Invalid argument with me. I wear BBDUs for facial hair and because I flirt with the weight line. We wear utilies because it's the most practical uniform for most of the time. That said we are starting blues on testing night because we have better than 75% equipped with them now.

[SarDragon]

The BDU uniform is a utility/field uniform. It should serve NO OTHER purpose. When was the last time you saw someone wearing service dress on a SAR mission?  BDU's are not even ISSUED to cadets by national, they are either locally procured through DRMO or purchased locally.  Everyone getting together in their "cool" looking BDU's for a weekly squadron meeting is silly. What purpose does it serve? Why is an indoor environment with climate controls an area that precludes wearing service dress? Get serious, the BDU's serve a purpose, but they do not have to be worn at a squadron meeting.

Ease of care comes immediately to mind.

IIRC, the trousers are DCO, and the shirt needs a quick hit with an iron when it comes out of the dryer. I can do straight wash and wear with my BDUs (either flavor).

Another consideration is that we have active teens involved here, and the BDUs provide greater freedom of activity during weekly meetings.

YMMV.

[lordmonar]

The BDU uniform is a utility/field uniform. It should serve NO OTHER purpose. When was the last time you saw someone wearing service dress on a SAR mission?  BDU's are not even ISSUED to cadets by national, they are either locally procured through DRMO or purchased locally.  Everyone getting together in their "cool" looking BDU's for a weekly squadron meeting is silly. What purpose does it serve? Why is an indoor environment with climate controls an area that precludes wearing service dress? Get serious, the BDU's serve a purpose, but they do not have to be worn at a squadron meeting.

At my squadron...we wear blues on the first week, BDUs on the ES week, gym cloths on PT night, and blues on the 4th week.  On months with 5 weeks....we wear what is appropriate for the night...blues, bdus or civies.

There is no excuse for not having all of your cadets in blues....they are free....but likewise....if all of your cadets have BDUs I see no problem with that being the normal UOD.

[cap235629]

^^^ I was referring to senior members^^^

Apparently everyone keeps missing this part of the conversation!!!!

[davidsinn]

^^^ I was referring to senior members^^^

Apparently everyone keeps missing this part of the conversation!!!!

No I didn't. We wear BDUs to match the cadets. End of story.

[RiverAux]

No, we wear BDUs because we have always worn the AF/Army fatigue uniform since before we had a cadet program. 

[davidsinn]

No, we wear BDUs because we have always worn the AF/Army fatigue uniform since before we had a cadet program.

That's true too. He was wondering why our officer's wear utilities right now when most of our work is office where blues should be sufficient.

[RogueLeader]

<snip>
There is no excuse for not having all of your cadets in blues....they are free....<snip>

They are only free when USAF has the money available to provide them to cadets, and I've had some wait for several montha before they arrived.  Our unit can easily outfit most new cadets with bdus when they show up on the roster.  If they plan ahead, cadets can be in a proper CAP uniform within 2 weeks of being a member.  good luck with blues doing that.

[jimmydeanno]

They are only free when USAF has the money available to provide them to cadets, and I've had some wait for several montha before they arrived. 

The program isn't funded by the USAF.  The FCUP is an approved use of our appropriated funds.  So CAP allocates the amount to use for the program each year and the money comes out of the appropriated fund checkbook rather than the corporate fund checkbook.

[RogueLeader]

They are only free when USAF has the money available to provide them to cadets, and I've had some wait for several montha before they arrived. 

The program isn't funded by the USAF.  The FCUP is an approved use of our appropriated funds.  So CAP allocates the amount to use for the program each year and the money comes out of the appropriated fund checkbook rather than the corporate fund checkbook.

OK. I was wrong, but it still comes down to funding, and how long it takes to get uniforms to the cadets.

[jimmydeanno]

...it still comes down to funding, and how long it takes to get uniforms to the cadets.

My understanding is that we don't use nearly all the funds allocated for the program that we designate.  Also, IIRC, each year we "give back" about 1 million in appropriated funds that went unused.  So, I suppose technically it could be designated to increase the funding for 0-flights, FCUP, etc - but we realize that we have the extra too close to the end of the FY to make use of it...

I think the delays are actually a result of processing priorities/communication methods. 

There was some talk about NHQ keeping a small supply (about 50K) worth of uniforms on hand so they could send the cadet a "new cadet kit" that included books, nameplate, cutouts, flight cap insignia, and uniform...but then you have to either hire someone to handle the logistical realities of it or make it an "additional duty" which still costs money...

[sparks]

Great idea if true, NHQ keeping a reserve of uniforms to send to cadets as they sign up. Oops, maybe that's what the abolished bookstore had been doing.

It will be tough to stock all those sizes cadets come in but I would support and applaud the effort. It would be a good solution to turning back uniform money if the accounts can flow that way. Different account categories could have limits preventing something like that.

Some squadrons I have been in have funded uniforms for cadet hardship cases. I suspect there are many more of those in todays economy.

[Angus]

It's going to be a long time till we ever see the ABU.  I was at my Wing Staff Meeting earlier this month and our Wing Commander said that from the NEC meeting we know that there are enough BDU's to go around and MA Blue won't even think of us in ABU's for awhile.  It should also be noted that other Miltiaries around the world do use the Basic Woodland Cammo that we are currently using.  So the only thing that could change in the near future is that the quality we've been able to get before may go down. 

[Eclipse]

There was some talk about NHQ keeping a small supply (about 50K) worth of uniforms on hand so they could send the cadet a "new cadet kit" that included books, nameplate, cutouts, flight cap insignia, and uniform...but then you have to either hire someone to handle the logistical realities of it or make it an "additional duty" which still costs money...

I'll do it for cost.

Send me the stuff, a way to get nameplates made, and a Fed Ex account #.

VG could do this without adding anyone - just put together 1 page for the sizes and the name, or do it internally direct from the applications.

[RADIOMAN015]

No matter what the military uses, woodland BDUs will always be the camo that everyone assumes is military. Therefore, people will always assume we are military.

A lot of members in CAP love to play "Army", so to speak with their camoflauged BDU's, looking just like an invading Army as they perform their "Missions for America" in their local communities.

However, from a practical standpoint, these uniforms can be a lot less expensive (sometimes even free) than the other alternatives (especially the AF Blue uniform combos).

A few years back, our wing rep to the state PD S&R division, was told by officials that they would prefer to see our members in the Blue BDUS rather than the camoflauged BDU's.  Guess it seemed pretty silly to them that we needed to be disguised in the woods rather than very visible, which is somewhat mitigated by wearing an orange or bright lime vest.  Additionally one of the state police's special response teams utilizes camoflagued BDU's, so I guess they didn't want to have ANY confusion.
RM

[PHall]

A lot of members in CAP love to play "Army", so to speak with their camoflauged BDU's, looking just like an invading Army as they perform their "Missions for America" in their local communities.
RM

That's a rather bold statement, you have some kind of proof to back that up?

[lordmonar]

OK. I was wrong, but it still comes down to funding, and how long it takes to get uniforms to the cadets.

My girls joined in August....the got their FCU's in about 3 weeks.

Granted right around Sept-OCT there is usually a stop gap because of spending freezes at the USAF....but if it is taking 3 months...someone needs to be on the phone with national and see what the problem is.

[lordmonar]

If we are going to have a CAP distinctive uniform......why not just go with the BBDU's?  They are just a cheap as the BDUs.  In 5 years or so there will no longer be any BDUs to be had from DRMO sources.  So in the long run it will just be the same thing.

Functionally there is no need to be in anysort of camo out in the field.  BBDUs look pretty good IMHO.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

If we are going to have a CAP distinctive uniform......why not just go with the BBDU's?  They are just a cheap as the BDUs.  In 5 years or so there will no longer be any BDUs to be had from DRMO sources.  So in the long run it will just be the same thing.

Functionally there is no need to be in anysort of camo out in the field.  BBDUs look pretty good IMHO.

I agree with you about the camo issue.

However, YMMV with the availability/cost issue.  My local Army/Navy store does not stock BBDU's, but they do have quite a few Woodland BDU's in stock from brand new to used-but-you-can't-tell-it at dirt cheap prices.

[PHall]

If we are going to have a CAP distinctive uniform......why not just go with the BBDU's?  They are just a cheap as the BDUs.  In 5 years or so there will no longer be any BDUs to be had from DRMO sources.  So in the long run it will just be the same thing.

Functionally there is no need to be in anysort of camo out in the field.  BBDUs look pretty good IMHO.

Pat, you weren't around when CAP made the transition to BDU's from the Olive Drab Fatigues.
There was a lot of people making a big deal how wearing camouflage would make us "combatants".
Last time I checked, we're still "noncombatants", even with the camouflage.
Of course Chaplains and Medics wear camouflage too and nobody tells them that wearing camouflage makes them a combatant.

[lordmonar]

If we are going to have a CAP distinctive uniform......why not just go with the BBDU's?  They are just a cheap as the BDUs.  In 5 years or so there will no longer be any BDUs to be had from DRMO sources.  So in the long run it will just be the same thing.

Functionally there is no need to be in anysort of camo out in the field.  BBDUs look pretty good IMHO.

Pat, you weren't around when CAP made the transition to BDU's from the Olive Drab Fatigues.
There was a lot of people making a big deal how wearing camouflage would make us "combatants".
Last time I checked, we're still "noncombatants", even with the camouflage.
Of course Chaplains and Medics wear camouflage too and nobody tells them that wearing camouflage makes them a combatant.

Well....by my read of the LOAC....we are combatants no matter what uniforms we wear. 

Our Genevia convention status has nothing to do with my thinking.  Taking the woodland BDU as our corporate field uniform solves no problems in the long run.

As a SAR uniform it is not the best choice.
We already have  a corporate field uniform.
By ditching the BDU's, it would make it all the easier to get the ABUs in the future.

[wuzafuzz]

Hurl.  Let the BDU die out, it looks horrid with the ultramarine sew-ons anyway.  Heck, it'll also clean up those uniforms that still have obsolete wing patches and CAP letters on the collars.

No I don't have BBDU's.  I'd have to buy some.

[Eclipse]

it'll also clean up those uniforms that still have obsolete wing patches and CAP letters on the collars.

?

Misunderstanding or misstatement?

Wing patches are still authorized (required in some wings) at the wearer's option, and CAP cutouts are still worn by SMWOG's on both field variants.

[wuzafuzz]

it'll also clean up those uniforms that still have obsolete wing patches and CAP letters on the collars.

?

Misunderstanding or misstatement?

Wing patches are still authorized (required in some wings) at the wearer's option, and CAP cutouts are still worn by SMWOG's on both field variants.

Neither.  My wing changed patches many moons ago, but people still show up wearing them from time to time.  CAP cutouts still show up on the opposite collar from the grade insignia on SM's with grade.  No longer proper, but it happens.

[Eclipse]

^ Yes, sad, isn't it?

I still see way too many people with the wrong MAJCOM, or worse, the CAP seal on flight suits, and every once in a while
someone shows up with a wing patch on their shirt or service coat.

We'll have a new round of "wrongs" in March with the sundown of "US CAP" on field uniforms.

[Pylon]

The US Army controls the rights to the Woodland BDU pattern that was/is in use (through the Army's permission) by the various US Armed Forces.  Much like the US Marines, for example, control the rights to the MARPAT.  Even if the Marines stopped using MARPAT and went with a new pattern, that wouldn't mean that another organization could come along and say "While, since they're not using MARPAT anymore, it's not an official uniform and therefore we can do with it whatever we wish".  Doesn't work like that.

The US Army still retains the exclusive rights to the woodland BDU pattern, whether or not any part of the US government is or is not actively using the pattern.

[Eclipse]

^ Do you have any sort of cite on that?  MARPAT might be patented, but I doubt woodland is, and it wouldn't be hard to
adjust the shaping to elude the patent.

Edit:  My own quick checks shows MARPAT has a patent, but not ERDL, which is what M81 Woodland is based off of.
The Army may have developed it, but that doesn't mean they control it.  My guess would be that their lack of patent on
ERDL is why the have sought to control the next-gen stuff, since the M81 is all over the world, now.

Here's more than you could possibly be interested in regarding world-wide camo use:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_camouflage_patterns

Wiki says in the US its still in use by:

US Air Force, US Navy, US Coast Guard, Civil Air Patrol,United States Naval Sea Cadet Corps,US Public Health Service, State Defense Forces, LAPD SWAT

And worldwide in at least these countries:

Afghanistan, Albania, Argentina, Bangladesh, Bolivia, Bosnia, Chile, Colombia, Croatia, Ecuador, Estonia, Ethiopia, Guatemala, Honduras, Iran, Israel, Italy, Ivory Coast, Jamaica, Jordan, Latvia, Lebanon, Libya, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Macedonia, Mexico, Morocco, Netherlands (RNLMC), Nicaragua, Nigeria, Oman, Pakistan, Paraguay, Peru, Russia, Sierra Leone, Slovakia, Slovenia, South Korea, Spain, Sudan, Syria, Thailand, Turkey, Venezuela

Edit #2:  7000 Posts!  (just noticed)

[lordmonar]

Even if it is patented does not mean they "control" it...only that they get royalties off its future uses.

The control that you are looking for is the USC that says that civilians can't use military uniforms.  So once the BDU is no longer an official USAF uniform then the USAF would loose control of it.

Having said that......I still don't think CAP should adopt it as our corporate field uniform.

Except as otherwise provided by law, no person except a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, as the case may be, may wear—
(1) the uniform, or a distinctive part of the uniform, of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps; or
(2) a uniform any part of which is similar to a distinctive part of the uniform of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps.

[Eclipse]

Even if it is patented does not mean they "control" it...only that they get royalties off its future uses.

When you patent something, you control it - if you decide your "whatever" can only be used in "x" fashion, that's your call, including
not selling or licensing it.  That's been an issue with medicines.   Being that the Army is a government agency, ultimately tax-payer funded, I don't know if that changes the dynamic somewhat, but when you patent something its yours to share, or not.

Regardless, I agree woodland camo is a poor choice as a corporate alternative.  why we had it to start was understandable, but to keep it doesn't make any sense.  The only reason to stay with woodland, or adopt the ABU is affinity with the USAF, otherwise it doesn't make any sense.

[wuzafuzz]

Even if it is patented does not mean they "control" it...only that they get royalties off its future uses.

The control that you are looking for is the USC that says that civilians can't use military uniforms.  So once the BDU is no longer an official USAF uniform then the USAF would loose control of it.

Having said that......I still don't think CAP should adopt it as our corporate field uniform.

Except as otherwise provided by law, no person except a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, as the case may be, may wear—
(1) the uniform, or a distinctive part of the uniform, of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps; or
(2) a uniform any part of which is similar to a distinctive part of the uniform of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps.

Hmmm, I'm certainly no lawyer, but I'm thinking anyone could successfully argue that once half the planet started wearing BDU's they are no longer a distinctive part of the Army, Air Force, etc, uniform.  The new uniforms, sure, but BDU's lost any distinctiveness a long time ago.  Had the military protested when cops, sheriffs, etc started wearing them it might be another story.

The Air Force can still tell CAP what to wear, which trumps our discussion.

[lordmonar]

Hmmm, I'm certainly no lawyer, but I'm thinking anyone could successfully argue that once half the planet started wearing BDU's they are no longer a distinctive part of the Army, Air Force, etc, uniform.  The new uniforms, sure, but BDU's lost any distinctiveness a long time ago.  Had the military protested when cops, sheriffs, etc started wearing them it might be another story.

The Air Force can still tell CAP what to wear, which trumps our discussion.

Just because the government chooses not to enforce the law...does not mean they can't.  If someone puts on a set of BDU's and tries to get on base you can bet 711 will get used.....but the DoD is not going to go after the local cops, or Jim Bob for wearing BDUs out hunting.

Either way....come 2011 when the BDUs are no longer a military uniform.....then the DoD can't do anything...even if the wanted to.

[Pumbaa]

Patents have a limited shelf life.  There is an expiration.  Copyright is another story. That has a much longer shelf life.

Think drug patents vs generics.

[Rotorhead]

Even if it is patented does not mean they "control" it...only that they get royalties off its future uses.

The control that you are looking for is the USC that says that civilians can't use military uniforms.  So once the BDU is no longer an official USAF uniform then the USAF would loose control of it.

Having said that......I still don't think CAP should adopt it as our corporate field uniform.

Except as otherwise provided by law, no person except a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, as the case may be, may wear—
(1) the uniform, or a distinctive part of the uniform, of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps; or
(2) a uniform any part of which is similar to a distinctive part of the uniform of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps.

Hmmm, I'm certainly no lawyer, but I'm thinking anyone could successfully argue that once half the planet started wearing BDU's they are no longer a distinctive part of the Army, Air Force, etc, uniform.  The new uniforms, sure, but BDU's lost any distinctiveness a long time ago.  Had the military protested when cops, sheriffs, etc started wearing them it might be another story.

The Air Force can still tell CAP what to wear, which trumps our discussion.

I imagine the reason we wear BDUs (i.e., as an Air Force style uniform) now is because we lobbied the USAF at some point for the "right" to do so.

If we decided that BBDUs were more appropriate, I can't believe USAF would object.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Just because the government chooses not to enforce the law...does not mean they can't.  If someone puts on a set of BDU's and tries to get on base you can bet 711 will get used.....but the DoD is not going to go after the local cops, or Jim Bob for wearing BDUs out hunting.

Either way....come 2011 when the BDUs are no longer a military uniform.....then the DoD can't do anything...even if the wanted to.

If some numb-nut is putting on a set of BDU's from the local Army/Navy that some National Guard troop has just sold/consigned because of getting the ACU, leaving the insignia and tapes on, and walking around trying to pretend that they're Master Sergeant Joe Blow, then darn straight they need to be nailed for it.

There's a lot of hunting around here and I see hunters wearing old BDU's; in the main properly, with the insignia off.

But according to the Wikipedia list of the U.S. Federal agencies outside of DOD (and I'm not counting the USCG; they're not formally part of DOD but they are most definitely a military service) wearing Woodlands, they'll likely still be around for quite a while.  I imagine, though, that eventually USPHS and NOAA, since they already wear modified Navy uniforms, will eventually go with CG ODU's (NOAA already has) or Navy working uniform.

So I think we'll still be able to get Woodlands fairly easily.

[lordmonar]

Getting woodlands is not the issue....we already have them.....I'm sure that if we used them for our corprate uniforms no one would have an issue.....even if they had a legal standing to do so.

Either way.....I don't see the need to adopt them as the corporate field uniform.  The BBDU works just fine.  BDUs used or not are not any cheaper.  Sure there are tonnes of them in DRMO and surplus stores now....but in 5-6 years the only wood land BDUs will be those made my Proper....who make the BBDU just as cheap.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Getting woodlands is not the issue....we already have them.....I'm sure that if we used them for our corprate uniforms no one would have an issue.....even if they had a legal standing to do so.

Either way.....I don't see the need to adopt them as the corporate field uniform.  The BBDU works just fine.  BDUs used or not are not any cheaper.  Sure there are tonnes of them in DRMO and surplus stores now....but in 5-6 years the only wood land BDUs will be those made my Proper....who make the BBDU just as cheap.

I would be in full agreement with you, if the BBDU's were easier to lay hold of.  Yes, there's the Internet, but I like it a lot better if I can actually try them on to ascertain the fit.

[PHall]

Most uniform stores that cater to police seem to have them, you might try there.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Most uniform stores that cater to police seem to have them, you might try there.

Thank you, but I've been down that route...the local PD/ES supplier only carries black ones, and they're not the same cut.

[Hawk200]

Most uniform stores that cater to police seem to have them, you might try there.

Thank you, but I've been down that route...the local PD/ES supplier only carries black ones, and they're not the same cut.

Huh? BDU's are a standard pattern. Black ones will fit just like blue ones. Or Woodland ones. Or Desert ones. Or Tan ones....

[Eclipse]

Huh? BDU's are a standard pattern. Black ones will fit just like blue ones. Or Woodland ones. Or Desert ones. Or Tan ones....

From one manufacturer, yes.  Across manufacturers, no way.

Same variation as in civilian sizes runs in some of these suppliers, especially the low-end ones.  They also might not be "BDU's", but instead tactical pants with different pockets, etc.

[FARRIER]

Even if it is patented does not mean they "control" it...only that they get royalties off its future uses.

The control that you are looking for is the USC that says that civilians can't use military uniforms.  So once the BDU is no longer an official USAF uniform then the USAF would loose control of it.

Having said that......I still don't think CAP should adopt it as our corporate field uniform.

Except as otherwise provided by law, no person except a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, as the case may be, may wear—
(1) the uniform, or a distinctive part of the uniform, of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps; or
(2) a uniform any part of which is similar to a distinctive part of the uniform of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps.

Hmmm, I'm certainly no lawyer, but I'm thinking anyone could successfully argue that once half the planet started wearing BDU's they are no longer a distinctive part of the Army, Air Force, etc, uniform.  The new uniforms, sure, but BDU's lost any distinctiveness a long time ago.  Had the military protested when cops, sheriffs, etc started wearing them it might be another story.

The Air Force can still tell CAP what to wear, which trumps our discussion.

I imagine the reason we wear BDUs (i.e., as an Air Force style uniform) now is because we lobbied the USAF at some point for the "right" to do so.

If we decided that BBDUs were more appropriate, I can't believe USAF would object.

We wear the BDU's as we had worn the Gren Utilities before them. They were the Air Forces workinmg uniform, and transitioned to them after the Air Force had done so. Blue BDU's came about because they didn't want senior's outside the standards wearing the Air Force uniform. Prior to that, seniors outside the standards wore them without rank.

[Hawk200]

From one manufacturer, yes.  Across manufacturers, no way.

Same variation as in civilian sizes runs in some of these suppliers, especially the low-end ones.  They also might not be "BDU's", but instead tactical pants with different pockets, etc.

True BDU's shouldn't have any variation at all. I've owned six different color pattern BDU's from different manufacturers, and they all fit the same.

Now, I've seen a variety of different types of clothing labeled as BDU's. The funniest was basically the old OG107(507?) fatigue in woodland camo fabric. Even the side pockets were just patch pockets.

I've also seen a Type I jungle fatigue pattern in woodland camo. Kinda hard to market it as a BDU when it has exposed pocket buttons, on slanted upper pockets.

Actual BDU's shouldn't fit any differently.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

But not all law enforcement personnel wear "actual BDU's;" many wear the kind of "tactical" gear that has been pointed out here, and which my local LE supply shop carries.

[Hawk200]

But not all law enforcement personnel wear "actual BDU's;" many wear the kind of "tactical" gear that has been pointed out here, and which my local LE supply shop carries.

True. My point is that actual "BDU"'s shouldn't have any variation to them. Any real BDU's will fit the same across the board. If they don't, they're not real regardless of whether they're labeled as such.

[BillB]

May I ask the purpose of this thread? As I understand it, USAF has already OK'd the ABU for CAP. Only holdup is the distinticive CAP insignia. What is wrong with the BBDU for members that don't meet standards? Why bring back from the grave a uniform that is basically out of production since no military service wears it.

[cap235629]

May I ask the purpose of this thread? As I understand it, USAF has already OK'd the ABU for CAP. Only holdup is the distinticive CAP insignia. What is wrong with the BBDU for members that don't meet standards? Why bring back from the grave a uniform that is basically out of production since no military service wears it.

Like a said earlier, it all comes down to the "cool" factor rather than utility for some members

[Hawk200]

Like a said earlier, it all comes down to the "cool" factor rather than utility for some members

Probably is. IF it happened, I'd bet the first thing that people would be pushing for is subdued tapes and insignia, with the justification that "It's not the Air Force's uniform, we can do anything we want with it".

People rationalize things in all kinds of roundabout ways.

What is wrong with the BBDU for members that don't meet standards?

With a single uniform, it's another way that members can justify autonomy. Many feel that if the AF doesn't have a say, they can do what they want: "I joined up, so this is how it's gonna work." It's a lot of personal integrity failure. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people left because of the catering to the lowest common denominator. There are so many here (not everybody though) that feel that they're second class because they don't meet certain standards, so they wish to remove the options for those who do.

Why bring back from the grave a uniform that is basically out of production since no military service wears it.

Not really out of production, just not produced enough that the expense would be worth it.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Probably is. IF it happened, I'd bet the first thing that people would be pushing for is subdued tapes and insignia, with the justification that "It's not the Air Force's uniform, we can do anything we want with it".

I would not be one of those.  Subdued insignia is not needed.

I really do like the BBDU's...but as I've said, many times, they are not easy to get for me.

[RiverAux]

As I understand it, USAF has already OK'd the ABU for CAP. Only holdup is the distinticive CAP insignia.

Not the case.  There has been some indications that they would be open to it, but first CAP in the form of the NB has to approve it and then it would officially go to the AF for their approval.  My guess is that CAP won't take its first step until they have been told unofficially by the AF that it would be approved. 

[wuzafuzz]

IF it happened, I'd bet the first thing that people would be pushing for is subdued tapes and insignia, with the justification that "It's not the Air Force's uniform, we can do anything we want with it".

No need for subdued insignia, but I would love to see the ultramarine backing go away.  Bright lettering or insignia on matching fabric wouldn't be so terrible.  Or at least a backing that isn't quite so garish.

[High Speed Low Drag]

No need for subdued insignia, but I would love to see the ultramarine backing go away.  Bright lettering or insignia on matching fabric wouldn't be so terrible.  Or at least a backing that isn't quite so garish.

I would like to see it go from ultra-marine blue to the navy blue (like our blue flight suit insignia).

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I would like to see it go from ultra-marine blue to the navy blue (like our blue flight suit insignia).

Agreed.

And I acknowledge error...my local Army/Navy put in a special order today for a set of BBDU's for me.

[Hawk200]

No need for subdued insignia, but I would love to see the ultramarine backing go away.  Bright lettering or insignia on matching fabric wouldn't be so terrible.  Or at least a backing that isn't quite so garish.

I would like to see it go from ultra-marine blue to the navy blue (like our blue flight suit insignia).

I'd add a third on that one. We don't need subdued, but navy would look a lot better. I wouldn't bother with requiring tapes on BDU's (maybe allow it as an option), but navy or midnight blue tapes on ABU's would probably look pretty good. Ultramarine was fine on pickle suits, but those days are gone.

BBDU's simply phase out the UM Blue through attrition (yeah, I know it could take a while).

[biomed441]

I saw a homeless man walking the streets today. He had a full set of BDU's on, amongst other things. I was tempted to buy them off him as they looked to be in pretty good shape. Surplus stores around here are just about bone dry when it comes to BDU's now. That or they are closing their doors completely because theres no more business. At least that's how it is here.

As for BDU's going distinctive; I don't really see the reason for it other than controlling what little is left of the surplus (Would that mean CAP would be the regulating body for all those hunters and fishermen out there who use them?). From a cadet programs view, the cadets are going to want to be, and should be in whatever the AF is. I would hope that the AF approves the use of ABUs, not because we need them to do our job (which we don't) but to if nothing else, keep the connection of the cadet program and the AF strong.

I'll also agree with the others and in saying get rid of the UM blue tapes and get something darker. BBDU's and ABU's or whatever U's we end up in; it would just look better.

[davedove]

Actually, there would be one good reason for making BDU's a "CAP distinctive" uniform:  a large segment of the membership already has them.

That being said, do we need to do this?  I don't think so.  The blue field uniform works fine for our purposes.

I like the blue field uniform, except for one thing.  Every little spot of dirt shows up on them.  With the BDU's, that's not the case.