Don't salute the aviator shirt or csu uniforms!

[RiverAux]

In this new answer the knowledge base say that although the white shirt/gray pants and new corporate service uniform (tpu) have rank, ribbons, etc. they are not considered military style as far as customs and courtsies are concerned.  So, you do not have to salute anyone in them and those wearing them are not expected to render salutes themselves. 

Is this insane or what?  So we send people wearing military rank insignia to a military base for training and they are not going to have to salute officers and won't be required to return salutes? 

Please clarify the Phrase "Military Style Uniforms" as used in CAPP 151.  Does that include the Aviator shirt/AF Blue pants combination and the Aviator shirt/Gray Combination?

  Answer
  No. The uniforms you cite are CAP distinctive uniforms. CAPM 39-1 covers AF or military style uniforms in Chapter 2.   

From CAPP 151:

b. Saluting. It is a courtesy exchanged between members of
the Civil Air Patrol when in military-style uniform as both a greeting and a symbol of mutual respect.

Doesn't this conflict with one of our ICLs.  Specifically the 25 Jan 08 39-1 ICL:

g. Customs and Courtesies in the Corporate Uniform. Effective
20 November 2006, the NEC clarified the policy concerning customs and courtesies
when wearing either of the new Corporate uniforms. Members wearing the Corporate Service Coat or the white aviator shirt and blue pants/skirt combination should observe the same customs and courtesies as members wearing the Air Force-style uniform.  Members will stand at attention for the National Anthem and the presentation of the colors and will salute superior officers as necessary

[SJFedor]

You bring this up like it's the first time something in one reg/manual/pam didn't jive with another reg/manual/pam....

[RiverAux]

Well, actually its the knowledgebase that is conflicting with the reg (in the form of an ICL).  Not entirely unknown, but you would think a brand new knowledgebase answer would get it right.

[SJFedor]

In a perfect world, yes.

But I'd consider an ICL and CAPP more regulatory then a knowledgebase answer, probably written by the new guy who's only got 3 days on the job or something.

Submit a reply to it, indicating that the answer contradicts the ICL.

[billford1]

CAPP 151 is a guideline  not a Reg. It seems like CAP would want to retain members not alienate them. The pamphlet writers should stop marginalizing the folks who aren't eligible to wear the AF uniform. These are the folks who put in serious effort. I know of a CAP wing whose membership numbers are in free fall. 50% of squadrons gone. In companies like that people talk about member retention.

[MIKE]

I'd agree that it conflicts with the ICL as applicable only to the Corporate Uniform, but as far as the other CAP distinctive uniforms which are not covered by the same ICL... The KB answer is not wrong. 

And as far as the ICL is concerned, it is technically expired and thus invalid. 

[Eclipse]

Internal to CAP you salute anyone who is superior in grade, whether they are in corporate or USAF-style.

External to CAP, you better return or throw a salute as appropriate - no one outside CAP reads our ICLs, and only sees the uniform and the grade.

[MIKE]

^ Of course anyone who wears the Corporate Uniform and/or CAP distinctive uniforms is gonna say that.

[EMT-83]

... because it's the right answer.

[SarDragon]

Well, everything resembling official policy I have read above conforms to my idea of "no hat, no salute".

YMMV.

[NC Hokie]

Well, everything resembling official policy I have read above conforms to my idea of "no hat, no salute".

That's okay for the white/gray combo but isn't the flight cap part of the CSU?

[MSgt Van]

So when my CC, Group or Wing Commander come strolling up in an aviator shirt I'm not to salute?
I don't think so. I don't look upon saluting as something I'm trying to get out of doing. I've never avoided it; I don't consider it beneath me, and believe me, I have to salute darn near everybody.  Part of my up-bringin'(starting life as an airman basic, ya know...)

[Eclipse]

Well, everything resembling official policy I have read above conforms to my idea of "no hat, no salute".

That's okay for the white/gray combo but isn't the flight cap part of the CSU?

The flight cap and service cap are indeed a component of the CSU, and you won't find anything in CAP regs that says "no hat, no salute", especially considering that many members wear corporates.

CAP members in corporates are due full courtesies by other members, the only thing you will find different is during the playing of the National Anthem, those wearing aviator whites cover their heart while those in CSU's salute same as USAF-style service dress.

[Rob Sherlin]

^^Am I getting this right? During the "Anthem", if you're wearing the white aviators shirt with the greys, you put your hand over your heart, and if you're wearing the white aviators shirt with the blues (hat requred) you salute?

[Eclipse]

^^Am I getting this right? During the "Anthem", if you're wearing the white aviators shirt with the greys, you put your hand over your heart, and if you're wearing the white aviators shirt with the blues (hat required) you salute?

Correct, NHQ indicated earlier this year that, when wearing the CSU, members observe the same protocol for the flag, anthem, pledge, etc., as when wearing a USAF-style uniform.

River's final quote above contains the NEC's clarification.

So that would be saluting the flag during the anthem, for starters.

We can call the CSU whatever we want internally, but it is a "military style uniform", more closely styled to a Naval service coat than an Air Force one, but that is a seperate thread.

It comes down to the fact that other services don't know or care about the socio-political-economic history of the CAP / USAF relationship, they just see some guy coming down the street, or standing in the audience / formation, in what is clearly military dress (what with the coins, jelly beans, and metal grade insignia), especially when on a military base, which is generally where these things come up, and will render or expect courtesies as appropriate, and / or would wonder why the guys over there in the bus-driver-style hats aren't saluting, but instead are covering their ribbons.

You can take this from another angle as well, the aviator whites have no required headgear, and if you're wearing anything like a ballcap, you're supposed to take it off during the anthem.

The CSU has required headgear, either the flight cap or the bus-driver hat.  If its were to be considered civilian dress in the same way as the whites, one reg would force members to violate the other - namely the rule about removing your hat for the anthem would conflict with the rule about not being outside in uniform without a hat (note I didn't say "cover", because that cause some people to go into anaphylactic  shock).

[Rob Sherlin]

  I think that's where I might have gotten confused. When people say "white aviator" shirt, or uniform, I don't know if they're talking about the shirt with the greys, or the blues, since that shirt is worn with 2 different uniforms, and just wanted to clarify what's done with each during flag ceremonies.
  I run into the same thing when someone says CSU, and then mentions the jacket. The picture that comes to me when CSU in mentioned is...The white aviators shirt, blue trousers, low quarter duty shoes, hat, and optionally worn with either the light windbreaker, all weather coat or A-2, as apposed to the CS "Dress" uniform wich calls for the double breasted jacket. Am I thinking right on this? Or, is CSU used to describe the version worn with the double breasted jacket and it's called something else when not worn with it?
  As far as the whole topic of saluting a person, whether it's required or not, if they're wearing any type of uniform that displays an officers rank ( I believe there's only one that doesn't), I think I'd salute them just out of respect ( to me it just seems the proper thing to do ), and I don't see it as a harm or infraction to do so...is it?

[JoeTomasone]

"White Aviator" refers to the combination with gray pants -- the uniform's official name in 39-1 is the White Aviator Shirt combination. 

The uniform combination with the same shirt, blue AF pants, and optional Corporate jacket is the Corporate Service Uniform - which both compares and contrasts it with the AF Service Uniform ("blues").

[Rob Sherlin]

 That clears it up a little.....I'll have to remember that while reading posts....Thank you Sir!

  ( I guess I'm still use to the ol' AFJROTC "Class A's, B's", etc., to describe different uniforms.....We also didn't have as many)

[DNall]

CAPP 151 is a guideline  not a Reg. It seems like CAP would want to retain members not alienate them. The pamphlet writers should stop marginalizing the folks who aren't eligible to wear the AF uniform. These are the folks who put in serious effort. I know of a CAP wing whose membership numbers are in free fall. 50% of squadrons gone. In companies like that people talk about member retention.

What? How is it alienating people? It says military style uniforms are required to render salutes, and corporate style are not. Do you expect to be saluted when wearing a golf shirt? There's also nothing that says members who do meet ht/wt/grooming cannot wear the corporate-style uniforms, and quite a few do.

And, the way this is done in the military, it's about what you are wearing, not the other person. If you recognize a superior officer, regardless of what they're wearing (to include civilian cloths) and you are in uniform, then you salute. If you are in civilian attire, then you render a verbal greeting. So, if you see your Gp CC wearing whatever, you should salute.

[dwb]

I think we're getting a little too wrapped up in the details here.

It is never inappropriate to show respect and courtesy towards a higher-ranking officer, regardless of the clothing they're wearing.

If that means someone in a corporate uniform gets a salute, then so be it.

[JoeTomasone]

It is never inappropriate to show respect and courtesy towards a higher-ranking officer, regardless of the clothing they're wearing.

If that means someone in a corporate uniform gets a salute, then so be it.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Snake Doctor]

20 years in the USAF and spending much time as both a CAP member and USAF now just a CAP member my take is:  If I'm in any CAP uniform showing grade and I get saluted by CAP or military, I return a correct one (I say that because I've seen some pretty goofy looking salutes) I salute ALL CAP and Military superior ranking officers.  If I am in a polo I don't salute nor expect a salute.

[JohnKachenmeister]

This discussion has triggered a question in my mind, and I'd like some input.

Recently, the Congress changed the law pertaining to rendering honors to the colors, and wrote a provision that VETERANS may render the military salute regardless of what clothing they are wearing.

Doesn't our ICL, which requires the civilian hand-to-heart salute when in corporate duds, now conflict with Federal law which gives a veteran the option of what salute to render?

[Eclipse]

Doesn't our ICL, which requires the civilian hand-to-heart salute when in corporate duds, now conflict with Federal law which gives a veteran the option of what salute to render?

Our regs don't trump federal law.

For anyone making an issue of it, simply commenting "I'm a veteran...", should end the conversation.

[winterg]

.....hold on a sec while I erect my bulletproof resistant baricade.....

This would not be a problem if we had ONE dress uniform, ONE utility uniform, and ONE flying uniform.

[SilverEagle2]

This would not be a problem if we had ONE dress uniform, ONE utility uniform, and ONE flying uniform.

While I agree with you in principle, that would eliminate a uniform accommodation for those unable/unwilling to meet height/weight/grooming standards  

Personally, I use the privilege of being able to wear the USAF as a motivation to continue to meet the height/weight/grooming standards.

Much like I use the possibility of loosing my medical as a means to staying healthy.

However, I see no problem having SINGULAR/closely standardized (i.e same epaulets, nameplates between the blue and whites) equivalents to provide options, but the customs and courtesies should also be equivalent.

[winterg]

^+1

[Eclipse]

This would not be a problem if we had ONE dress uniform, ONE utility uniform, and ONE flying uniform.

We are not the only service with more than one uniform for a respective purpose.

The Navy, for example, has at least 6 different categorized combinations, not including the new NWU's and NSU.

In fact right now, because of the transitions in the services and the number deployed in the gulf, I'd say that the situation in the compensated services is more jumbled than CAP, and will be until all the phase-out dates pass in he next 3-5 years.

If you want to compare CAP combos to the USAF:

Battle / working uniform:
CAP - 2,  camo & dark blue.
USAF - 3, camo, desert, and the ABU.

Flight suit:
CAP - 2,  Green & dark blue (technically three until March 09).
USAF - 3, green, desert, dark blue.

Mess dress:
CAP - 1
USAF - 1

Service Dress:
CAP - 3, whites, blues, CSU
USAF - 1, blues (soon to be two when they decide on the new one)

Golf shirt:
CAP - 1
USAF - 0

So the only place we really "lose" (win?) is on the CSU, as I've seen plenty of USAF people wearing various agency polos in different flavors when appropriate.

Leaving the weight issue on the table, there is still the challenge of long hair and beards, without which I would hazard a guess that the CSU would be adopted as the replacement for the whites, eliminating one combo and making our photos more uniform, even when standing next to USAF people.  The USAF does not have this challenge, but as a volunteer organization we cannot afford to risk the memberships of our people who have more creative hairstyles and facial hair.

I think that the current solution fits out needs, and is not excessive, not to mention that there is no requirement to invest in anything but a golf shirt (in 99% of activities).  As you move up the chain, there are increased expectations for appearance that are part of the game, especially when trying to set an example for cadets or subordinates.

[Smokey]

Why is there such an aversion to saluting among so many here???  It's not like you are being asked to lick their boots.

Sheesh...get over it.  If you don't like to salute....just show up in your underwear and quit your griping.   

[Grumpy]

Amen, sarge.

[Rob Sherlin]

 :clap: :clap: :clap:  If someones wearing a uniform that displays rank (which to me would classify as a military type uniform ), is it so bad, or take so much effort to lift and arm and salute out of respect?

  If you were in front of the National Commander and she was wearing the "Aviator Whites"....Would you salute her?

[MIKE]

If you were in front of the National Commander and she was wearing the "Aviator Whites"....Would you salute her?

Nope.

[Rob Sherlin]

Why?

  I think the problem here is "What's considered a Military type uniform". A lot of peope say the white aviator shirts with the greys isn't military...Yet, military style rank is worn with it. The white aviator shirt worn with the blues doesn't go for a lot of you also (even though it seems more military than the aviator shirt worn with the greys). Both display military style rank, therefore, should be recognized as so.
  I am begining to think that it's not the uniform.....It's just a lot of you have problems with people not meeting the height and weight requirements to wear the regular AF style (and maroon epaulet slleeves didn't work, so they chose grey?), or people who have facial hair (if I'm correct, even the Navy accepted beards with their regular uniforms as long as they're trimmed and you don't look like "Grizzly Adams"....don't know if that has canged).
  If you're going to "alienate" the people who don't meet those standards...Then you might as well swing the other way too,  and alienate the peope who look like they way 80 lbs and can be blown out of formation by someone just "breaking wind". I know for fact that not all people who don't meet the requirements are "out of shape"!

[MIKE]

b. Saluting. It is a courtesy exchanged between members of the Civil Air Patrol when in military-style uniform as both a greeting and a symbol of mutual respect.

The people who wrote that did not intend for the CAP distinctive uniforms to be confused with "military-style uniforms."

Edited to add:

I am begining to think that it's not the uniform.....It's just a lot of you have problems with people not meeting the height and weight requirements to wear the regular AF style (and maroon epaulet sleeves didn't work, so they chose grey?), or people who have facial hair (if I'm correct, even the Navy accepted beards with their regular uniforms as long as they're trimmed and you don't look like "Grizzly Adams"....don't know if that has canged).

Go find yourself a CAPM 39-1 from around the time CAPP 151 was written in the late '80s.  IIRC, the aviatior shirt with epaulet sleeves was new in the mid '90s... and blue Field Uniform didn't exist, you wore BDUs and flightsuits without grade instead.  There was no quasi-military CSU... There was the only the blazer.

[Camas]

  If you were in front of the National Commander and she was wearing the "Aviator Whites"....Would you salute her?

If I'm in uniform - absolutely - no question.

[Eclipse]

b. Saluting. It is a courtesy exchanged between members of the Civil Air Patrol when in military-style uniform as both a greeting and a symbol of mutual respect.

The people who wrote that did not intend for the CAP distinctive uniforms to be confused with "military-style uniforms."

What about simply in her role as your Commander?

Would you allow a cadet to report to her to receive an award and not salute?

I would certainly salute her - IMHO, the "military style uniform" distinction is for the purposes of defining when a CAP member is required to salute members of other services.

I don't believe there is ever any "relief" from saluting internal to CAP.

[NIN]

<breathless mea culpa follows>

I wore whites & greys tonight.  And I saluted.

*I feel so.... normal*

Thanks, needed that.

Back to your regularly scheduled argument.

[Rob Sherlin]

  No way!!!...But, is she wearing a uniform that shows her rank? If she's wearing a golf shirt, she may not be recognized (might even invite her to play a few holes..(afterall, it is a golf/club shirt )). Any other uniform, she should have rank, and I WILL (of course), "snap my hand to my brow" out of respect and honor!
 As far as what is written, we all know that's in need of clarification. There's no excuse!...It needs to be rewritten so EVERYTHING is covered. When they make a change, they should make it a point to inform everyone, and remove all the old information from viewing.
 If they never intended certain uniforms to be "Military", than there shouldn't be military rank worn with them (you might as well authorize rank on the lapels of the golf shirt uniform).
 The white aviator shirt, with grey trousers, and grey epaulet sleeves, "IS" military style (even though it looks like you work for an airline, you still wear military rank, and it's more "uniform" (color matching) than wearing all blue with grey epaulet sleeves). The CSU (without the jacket....Class"B" for old school) is even more military like because it's almost the same as Regular AF with exception of the shirt (worn with no jacket).

[JohnKachenmeister]

This would not be a problem if we had ONE dress uniform, ONE utility uniform, and ONE flying uniform.

We are not the only service with more than one uniform for a respective purpose.

The Navy, for example, has at least 6 different categorized combinations, not including the new NWU's and NSU.

In fact right now, because of the transitions in the services and the number deployed in the gulf, I'd say that the situation in the compensated services is more jumbled than CAP, and will be until all the phase-out dates pass in he next 3-5 years.

If you want to compare CAP combos to the USAF:

Battle / working uniform:
CAP - 2,  camo & dark blue.
USAF - 3, camo, desert, and the ABU.

Flight suit:
CAP - 2,  Green & dark blue (technically three until March 09).
USAF - 3, green, desert, dark blue.

Mess dress:
CAP - 1
USAF - 1

Service Dress:
CAP - 3, whites, blues, CSU
USAF - 1, blues (soon to be two when they decide on the new one)

Golf shirt:
CAP - 1
USAF - 0

So the only place we really "lose" (win?) is on the CSU, as I've seen plenty of USAF people wearing various agency polos in different flavors when appropriate.

Leaving the weight issue on the table, there is still the challenge of long hair and beards, without which I would hazard a guess that the CSU would be adopted as the replacement for the whites, eliminating one combo and making our photos more uniform, even when standing next to USAF people.  The USAF does not have this challenge, but as a volunteer organization we cannot afford to risk the memberships of our people who have more creative hairstyles and facial hair.

I think that the current solution fits out needs, and is not excessive, not to mention that there is no requirement to invest in anything but a golf shirt (in 99% of activities).  As you move up the chain, there are increased expectations for appearance that are part of the game, especially when trying to set an example for cadets or subordinates.

Minor corrections:

The USAF does have a golf shirt uniform.  It is worn by recruiters and some others.  It is a golf shirt like ours, but with the Air Force's new Fugitive-From-An-Origami-Festival logo on the left breast.  It is worn with khaki trousers.

Technically, we have 2 casual uniforms, the golf shirt and the polo shirt, which is worn on the VSAF program.

[Eclipse]

Technically, we have 2 casual uniforms, the golf shirt and the polo shirt, which is worn on the VSAF program.

I was fairly sure the USAF had a golf shirt, but couldn't confirm it easily.

Since I gave the USAF a point on a limited-wear flight suit (darkblue for t-birds), its only fair we take a point on the limited-wear VSAF shirt.

Lets go to the big board for the new totals...

Battle / working uniform:
CAP - 2,  camo & dark blue.
USAF - 3, camo, desert, and the ABU.

Flight suit:
CAP - 2,  Green & dark blue (technically three until March 09).
USAF - 3, green, desert, dark blue.

Mess dress:
CAP - 1
USAF - 1

Service Dress:
CAP - 3, whites, blues, CSU
USAF - 1, blues (soon to be two when they decide on the new one)

Golf shirt:
CAP - 2
USAF - 1

CAP - 10 basic uniforms
USAF - 9 basic uniforms

[winterg]

According to AFPAM 36-2241 V1 a salute is NOT innapropriate while in civilian clothing.  Have at it.  It is a measure of respect, regardless of uniform.

[winterg]

Technically, we have 2 casual uniforms, the golf shirt and the polo shirt, which is worn on the VSAF program.

I was fairly sure the USAF had a golf shirt, but couldn't confirm it easily.
Since I gave the USAF a point on a limited-wear flight suit (darkblue for t-birds), its only fair we take a point on the limited-wear VSAF shirt.
Lets go to the big board for the new totals...
Battle / working uniform:
CAP - 2,  camo & dark blue.
USAF - 3, camo, desert, and the ABU.
Flight suit:
CAP - 2,  Green & dark blue (technically three until March 09).
USAF - 3, green, desert, dark blue.
Mess dress:
CAP - 1
USAF - 1
Service Dress:
CAP - 3, whites, blues, CSU
USAF - 1, blues (soon to be two when they decide on the new one)
Golf shirt:
CAP - 2
USAF - 1
CAP - 10 basic uniforms
USAF - 9 basic uniforms

I don't think you are being entirely fair in your assensment of numbers of uniforms.  Counting concurrent uniforms during a changeover is misleading. 

Utility uniforms for the AF are changing.  The BDU and DCU are going away and they will have only one.  Same with the blues.  When it is decided on and the old ones phased out, there will be one. 

Not sure about their flight suit situation but I thought the dark blue was only missle crew in their bunkers?  May be wrong on that one.

[Eclipse]

Our corporate combinations, especially the aviator whites, don't really fit the textbook definition of "civilian clothing", especially internal to CAP.

Police and fire uniforms are certainly "civilian clothing" in the same respect, however it is common for subordinates to salute their superiors in PD/FD circumstances, especially during award ceremonies.

We haven't heard back yet from Mike whether he would allow a cadet to not salute the National CC when reporting for an award if she were in whites.

[Larry Mangum]

I remember being taught as a young active duty airman that it was appropriate to salute a superior if I recognized him even if both of were not in uniform or if just one of us was.  For example if I am in civvies and run across my Commanding Officer it would not be inappropriate for me to render a salute as a courtesy

[Eclipse]

I don't think you are being entirely fair in your assessment of numbers of uniforms.  Counting concurrent uniforms during a changeover is misleading.

Maybe, but too many folks discuss the number of combos CAP has as if you need science degree to figure it out, when in fact we're not really in any different boat than other similarly dressed services.

The transitional uniforms are a legit part of the discussion, because it means that affected personnel have to start doing the same mental math we do when getting dressed. Besides, I think in the 9 years I've been in CAP, there's been at least one service in major uniform transition, if not more, the whole time.

Not sure about their flight suit situation but I thought the dark blue was only missile crew in their bunkers?  May be wrong on that one.

The T-Birds and their support crews wear dark blue as well.

[SilverEagle2]

The T-Birds and their support crews wear dark blue as well.

And they look mighty good next to their birds wearing them. However, that's the only place they look good IMHO.

I just think for cost and confusion elimination, we need to be consistant with the blues and whites. That way we look UNIFORM without creating a USAF issue.

A CSU with grey epaulets and One line Name plate standing next to the AF Service Dress with the grey epaulets and one line would look good in a line up/formation

Take the jackets off, the whites with grey epaulets and grey nameplate standing next to the same on blue would also look uniform.

Then make the customs uniform and problem solved. No confusion, consolidated manufacturing, good looking consistant appearing uniforms. Lot's of wins here.

[D2SK]

Police and fire uniforms are certainly "civilian clothing" in the same respect, however it is common for subordinates to salute their superiors in PD/FD circumstances, especially during award ceremonies.

8 years in the fire service....never once saluted another firefighter, fire officer, chief, etc.  The fire department isn't the military, doesn't observe military customs, etc.  At least our department wasn't like that.  Our police department was the same way.

[MIKE]

We haven't heard back yet from Mike whether he would allow a cadet to not salute the National CC when reporting for an award if she were in whites.

I would allow it.  Bear in mind that an appropriate verbal greeting still applies.  If Maj Gen Courter disagrees with that read of CAPP 151, she should use her power as CAP/CC and get the pamphlet changed, or better yet changed to a reg.  I would hope that she wouldn't chew out the cadet (or me) for following published guidance as written.  Technically, I wouldn't have to salute, even if she was wearing AF-style.

Disagree with your contention that the cite does not apply to CAP internally... as that is exactly what the wording "exchanged between members of the Civil Air Patrol when in military-style uniform" suggests.

At least within the CGAux, we've dispensed with the whole saluting among Auxies thing.  My trops are a more military-style uniform than my service uniform, yet they get treated the same as the aviator shirt in CAP.

[Eclipse]

Then make the customs uniform and problem solved. No confusion, consolidated manufacturing, good looking consistant appearing uniforms. Lot's of wins here.

I agree, except that without relaxing the facial hair and hair-length regs on the CSU, you risk alienating a lot of members
if you standardize on the CSU as the corporate uniform.

[SilverEagle2]

Ah, forgot the grooming applies to the CSU.

Good Point.

[Eclipse]

Disagree with your contention that the cite does not apply to CAP internally... as that is exactly what the wording "exchanged between members of the Civil Air Patrol when in military-style uniform" suggests.

OK, except it doesn't say "USAF-style" uniform, it says "military style".

So the flight suit, for sure, regardless of color, since they are the same cut and insignia, and certainly there is a rainbow of colors in other services.

Same goes for the BDUs.

And the aviator whites are certainly a "military-style uniform" - grade sleeves, badges, ribbons, etc., the only real difference is material color and lack of a hat, which indoors is a non-issue for everyone.

[MIKE]

You have to know what "military-style" defined in 1989 to apply it correctly.  You can't say X-CAP distinctive uniform is extended military style status when it didn't exist.  Update the pamphlet, rather than extending the meaning of the wording to suit your personal prefrence.... Which is what this whole thread is about.

[bosshawk]

One more place where the real AF wears the blue bag: in mission control centers for satellite operations.  I was assigned to an AF satellite control facility in Sunnyvale, Ca and the active duty folks wore blue bags.  Looks like the AF really does have three flight suits.

If they weren't so darned expensive, I believe that more CAP folks would wear the blue flight suits.  IMHO, they are a sharp uniform.  Since I have three or four sage ones, I am too tight to buy a blue one.

[Eclipse]

Update the pamphlet, rather than extending the meaning of the wording to suit your personal preference....

...or limiting the meaning for the same reason.

I'm all for clarifications of the regulations, why NHQ doesn't see these and other discussions and work to squeeze out the need for interpretation is beyond me.  In a lot of cases its been the same circular arguments about the same things for 10 years.

But a lot of people seem to think its OK to try and make customs and courtesies-based political statements about which uniforms they like and which they don't, which is not right.

A general or commander is a general or commander, regardless of what they are wearing, especially if its some form of approved uniform.  They deserve the courtesies afforded them by reg.

[Smokey]

3 Pages of how to avoid saluting.....oh my gawd...

Can someone, anyone  please explain to me why there is such an aversion to saluting?

Please please....I guess I am really dumb.   The efforts some will go to in order to avoid a simple movement of the hand and arm boggles me.

[Eclipse]

3 Pages of how to avoid saluting.....oh my gawd...

If only it were, use search and we'll see you in 2009! 

[MIKE]

A general or commander is a general or commander, regardless of what they are wearing, especially if its some form of approved uniform.  They deserve the courtesies afforded them by reg.

And in CAP it's in a non-directive pamphlet written in 1989, so you can do what you want... and I can do what the pamphlet suggests I do or not do. 

[D2SK]

3 Pages of how to avoid saluting.....oh my gawd...

Can someone, anyone  please explain to me why there is such an aversion to saluting?

Please please....I guess I am really dumb.   The efforts some will go to in order to avoid a simple movement of the hand and arm boggles me.

I think some of the "purists" want to punish those who can't or choose not to wear an Air Force uniform.  For pete's sake, just salute.  What's the big deal?

[MIKE]

... And those who would discontinue the USAF style uniform for similar reasons.  It goes both ways.

[Grumpy]

Our corporate combinations, especially the aviator whites, don't really fit the textbook definition of "civilian clothing", especially internal to CAP.

Police and fire uniforms are certainly "civilian clothing" in the same respect, however it is common for subordinates to salute their superiors in PD/FD circumstances, especially during award ceremonies.

We haven't heard back yet from Mike whether he would allow a cadet to not salute the National CC when reporting for an award if she were in whites.

Wow! I must have really been disrespectfull.  29 years on the Sheriff's Dept. and I don't remember ever saluting.   

[Smokey]

Yeah Grumpy...you never saluted me!

But back on track....I'm really in wonder why so many want to avoid saluting and will come up with any and all excuses.    It seems however, those that are trying every trick in the book to avoid it have yet to say why it offends them so much.

[SilverEagle2]

I think some of the "purists" want to punish those who can't or choose not to wear an Air Force uniform.

That is why I (as a purist by your inferred definition*) feel that if you are wearing and equivalent uniform, you use the same courtesies. No punishment needed.

*One who thinks as an USAF AUX we should wear the USAF Uniform

[brasda91]

Everyone seems to be missing the one major thing.  We salute the grade, not the uniform, not the person.  So, regardless of the uniform, if it has grade, it deserves to be saluted.  Even if it doesn't have grade and you feel like saluting, very well.  That's just being polite in my book.

[brenaud]

IIRC, there was a revised CAPP151 for comment on the NHQ site some time ago and it addressed this.  (Mind you, I'm talking about a proposed revision of a pamphlet, not a published version of a reg).  Basically it applied the same customs and courtesies to all of our uniforms except the golf shirt and blazer combo.  Never heard what happened to that proposal, though.  Personally, I like it.  Especially since it looks more consistent to the general public.  Members in uniforms with "obvious" grade insignia (none on golf shirt, and it's really hard to see at a distance on the blazer) act the same way.  Just my $.02.

[SJFedor]

Technically, we have 2 casual uniforms, the golf shirt and the polo shirt, which is worn on the VSAF program.

I was fairly sure the USAF had a golf shirt, but couldn't confirm it easily.

Since I gave the USAF a point on a limited-wear flight suit (darkblue for t-birds), its only fair we take a point on the limited-wear VSAF shirt.

Lets go to the big board for the new totals...

Battle / working uniform:
CAP - 2,  camo & dark blue.
USAF - 3, camo, desert, and the ABU.

Flight suit:
CAP - 2,  Green & dark blue (technically three until March 09).
USAF - 3, green, desert, dark blue.

Mess dress:
CAP - 1
USAF - 1

Service Dress:
CAP - 3, whites, blues, CSU
USAF - 1, blues (soon to be two when they decide on the new one)

Golf shirt:
CAP - 2
USAF - 1

CAP - 10 basic uniforms
USAF - 9 basic uniforms

Forgot the USAF PT uniforms.

[Eclipse]

Forgot the USAF PT uniforms.

I considered it - its another tie.  We both have one, at least according to Vanguard, though the I don't think ours is actually defined in 39-1.

[DNall]

This discussion has triggered a question in my mind, and I'd like some input.

Recently, the Congress changed the law pertaining to rendering honors to the colors, and wrote a provision that VETERANS may render the military salute regardless of what clothing they are wearing.

Doesn't our ICL, which requires the civilian hand-to-heart salute when in corporate duds, now conflict with Federal law which gives a veteran the option of what salute to render?

The federal law says MAY, not WILL. A veteran has the choice to salute colors in civilian cloths. They also have the choice not to do so, and CAP regs direct all members not to do so in the golf shirt combo. That doesn't conflict, it just restricts you from making that choice for yourself, which is what all uniform regs do.

[winterg]

This is really a non-issue.  We should conform to the TRADITION of the salute.  Regardless of the "type" of uniform worn, if the person is senior in rank, salute. Out of respect.  Always ere on the side of courtesy.  I spend a lot of time with veteran palls of mine.  We routinely salute each other.  In civvies.  At the bar.  Are we wrong?  No.

I do not give a rat's (censored) what any reg or pamphlet says.  If Maj. Gen. Courtier was wearing a bib-overall I would salute her out of respect.

If I had met (he should not be named) (and I have) regardless of my personal feelings, I would salute him. (and did)

If I saw Rex tomorrow, despite him not being a member and myself out of uniform, I would salute him.

Respect.  Courtesy.  Not just words.   A way of life.

[cnitas]

Respect.  Courtesy.  Not just words.   A way of life.

:clap:

[SarDragon]

OK, I think the original discussion was merely trying to clarify a potentially embarrassing situation, for which, at this point in the thread, there appears to be no right answer.

Some folks think a salute is mandatory, regardless of situation. Others are less confident on when salutes are required, with good reason - there is no consistent, defined policy. Until that happens, there is no right answer.

My view - no hat, no salute (NHNS), pretty much a carryover from my cadet training, and subsequent military service. This worked well in CAP, since the only corporate uniforms, up until about 1989, were the blazer, smurf suit, and guyabara shirt. The latter two have gone the way of the dinosaur, so only the blazer remains. I have only ever seen saluting in the blazer uniform as a part of an awards presentation (YMMV).

Since the advent of the polo shirt and aviator shirt combinations, the NHNS policy remains germane. All of the above were/are considered "civilian clothes" in the eyes of the Air Force. NHNS still applies.

Now we have the CSU, with hat, and the plot thickens. Even though it is a corporate uniform, which is probably considered civilian clothes in the eyes of the Air Force, it has a hat, and therefore implies the exchange of the salute. It does violate AF policy of mixing uniform items with civilian clothes, an example being the prohibition of wearing the AF blue belt and silver buckle with the aviator combination. But now we are wearing a half-baked mish-mash of civilian and AF items available only to a portion of our members.

My bottom line, IMHO, common sense approach is still - no hat, no salute. I'm outta here. Enjoy. 

[CAP_truth]

Why not follow the old adage, when in doubt salute. You are rendering honor to the grade or the position not the individual. When I see someone I know to be of higher rank and I am in any AF uniform, CSU, or Whit shirt/grey pants I would salute them regardless. But that's just me.

[Grumpy]

Is this horse ever going to revive?  Or do we just keep beating it?

[AlphaSigOU]

Is this horse ever going to revive?  Or do we just keep beating it?

It's probably flatter than a pancake right now. 

[winterg]

Eclipse,

You forgot a uniform.

http://mms.businesswire.com/bwapps/mediaserver/ViewMedia?mgid=163572&vid=5&download=1

We should prob put it under utilities, maybe?

[Eclipse]

Eclipse,

You forgot a uniform.

http://mms.businesswire.com/bwapps/mediaserver/ViewMedia?mgid=163572&vid=5&download=1

We should prob put it under utilities, maybe?

Heh - YES, and it includes a "SAR" helmet!   :clap:

[PHall]

Isn't this thread way overdue a visit from "Mike the Lock Master"?

[Pumbaa]

This should do the trick...



I say salute when you know it wil irritate those CAPtalkers who say no.  And then Don't salute when you want to irritate the other 50% of the CAPTalkers.  Either way there will be someone who will start a variation of some sort of uniform thread.

Masterlock Mike will come along in due time and lock the thread anyway.  Funny how he locks the more entertaining and informative ones and then lets others go on and on and on...