Don't salute the aviator shirt or csu uniforms!

[RiverAux]

In this new answer the knowledge base say that although the white shirt/gray pants and new corporate service uniform (tpu) have rank, ribbons, etc. they are not considered military style as far as customs and courtsies are concerned.  So, you do not have to salute anyone in them and those wearing them are not expected to render salutes themselves. 

Is this insane or what?  So we send people wearing military rank insignia to a military base for training and they are not going to have to salute officers and won't be required to return salutes? 

Please clarify the Phrase "Military Style Uniforms" as used in CAPP 151.  Does that include the Aviator shirt/AF Blue pants combination and the Aviator shirt/Gray Combination?

  Answer
  No. The uniforms you cite are CAP distinctive uniforms. CAPM 39-1 covers AF or military style uniforms in Chapter 2.   

From CAPP 151:

b. Saluting. It is a courtesy exchanged between members of
the Civil Air Patrol when in military-style uniform as both a greeting and a symbol of mutual respect.

Doesn't this conflict with one of our ICLs.  Specifically the 25 Jan 08 39-1 ICL:

g. Customs and Courtesies in the Corporate Uniform. Effective
20 November 2006, the NEC clarified the policy concerning customs and courtesies
when wearing either of the new Corporate uniforms. Members wearing the Corporate Service Coat or the white aviator shirt and blue pants/skirt combination should observe the same customs and courtesies as members wearing the Air Force-style uniform.  Members will stand at attention for the National Anthem and the presentation of the colors and will salute superior officers as necessary

[SJFedor]

You bring this up like it's the first time something in one reg/manual/pam didn't jive with another reg/manual/pam....

[RiverAux]

Well, actually its the knowledgebase that is conflicting with the reg (in the form of an ICL).  Not entirely unknown, but you would think a brand new knowledgebase answer would get it right.

[SJFedor]

In a perfect world, yes.

But I'd consider an ICL and CAPP more regulatory then a knowledgebase answer, probably written by the new guy who's only got 3 days on the job or something.

Submit a reply to it, indicating that the answer contradicts the ICL.

[billford1]

CAPP 151 is a guideline  not a Reg. It seems like CAP would want to retain members not alienate them. The pamphlet writers should stop marginalizing the folks who aren't eligible to wear the AF uniform. These are the folks who put in serious effort. I know of a CAP wing whose membership numbers are in free fall. 50% of squadrons gone. In companies like that people talk about member retention.

[MIKE]

I'd agree that it conflicts with the ICL as applicable only to the Corporate Uniform, but as far as the other CAP distinctive uniforms which are not covered by the same ICL... The KB answer is not wrong. 

And as far as the ICL is concerned, it is technically expired and thus invalid. 

[Eclipse]

Internal to CAP you salute anyone who is superior in grade, whether they are in corporate or USAF-style.

External to CAP, you better return or throw a salute as appropriate - no one outside CAP reads our ICLs, and only sees the uniform and the grade.

[MIKE]

^ Of course anyone who wears the Corporate Uniform and/or CAP distinctive uniforms is gonna say that.

[EMT-83]

... because it's the right answer.

[SarDragon]

Well, everything resembling official policy I have read above conforms to my idea of "no hat, no salute".

YMMV.

[NC Hokie]

Well, everything resembling official policy I have read above conforms to my idea of "no hat, no salute".

That's okay for the white/gray combo but isn't the flight cap part of the CSU?

[MSgt Van]

So when my CC, Group or Wing Commander come strolling up in an aviator shirt I'm not to salute?
I don't think so. I don't look upon saluting as something I'm trying to get out of doing. I've never avoided it; I don't consider it beneath me, and believe me, I have to salute darn near everybody.  Part of my up-bringin'(starting life as an airman basic, ya know...)

[Eclipse]

Well, everything resembling official policy I have read above conforms to my idea of "no hat, no salute".

That's okay for the white/gray combo but isn't the flight cap part of the CSU?

The flight cap and service cap are indeed a component of the CSU, and you won't find anything in CAP regs that says "no hat, no salute", especially considering that many members wear corporates.

CAP members in corporates are due full courtesies by other members, the only thing you will find different is during the playing of the National Anthem, those wearing aviator whites cover their heart while those in CSU's salute same as USAF-style service dress.

[Rob Sherlin]

^^Am I getting this right? During the "Anthem", if you're wearing the white aviators shirt with the greys, you put your hand over your heart, and if you're wearing the white aviators shirt with the blues (hat requred) you salute?

[Eclipse]

^^Am I getting this right? During the "Anthem", if you're wearing the white aviators shirt with the greys, you put your hand over your heart, and if you're wearing the white aviators shirt with the blues (hat required) you salute?

Correct, NHQ indicated earlier this year that, when wearing the CSU, members observe the same protocol for the flag, anthem, pledge, etc., as when wearing a USAF-style uniform.

River's final quote above contains the NEC's clarification.

So that would be saluting the flag during the anthem, for starters.

We can call the CSU whatever we want internally, but it is a "military style uniform", more closely styled to a Naval service coat than an Air Force one, but that is a seperate thread.

It comes down to the fact that other services don't know or care about the socio-political-economic history of the CAP / USAF relationship, they just see some guy coming down the street, or standing in the audience / formation, in what is clearly military dress (what with the coins, jelly beans, and metal grade insignia), especially when on a military base, which is generally where these things come up, and will render or expect courtesies as appropriate, and / or would wonder why the guys over there in the bus-driver-style hats aren't saluting, but instead are covering their ribbons.

You can take this from another angle as well, the aviator whites have no required headgear, and if you're wearing anything like a ballcap, you're supposed to take it off during the anthem.

The CSU has required headgear, either the flight cap or the bus-driver hat.  If its were to be considered civilian dress in the same way as the whites, one reg would force members to violate the other - namely the rule about removing your hat for the anthem would conflict with the rule about not being outside in uniform without a hat (note I didn't say "cover", because that cause some people to go into anaphylactic  shock).

[Rob Sherlin]

  I think that's where I might have gotten confused. When people say "white aviator" shirt, or uniform, I don't know if they're talking about the shirt with the greys, or the blues, since that shirt is worn with 2 different uniforms, and just wanted to clarify what's done with each during flag ceremonies.
  I run into the same thing when someone says CSU, and then mentions the jacket. The picture that comes to me when CSU in mentioned is...The white aviators shirt, blue trousers, low quarter duty shoes, hat, and optionally worn with either the light windbreaker, all weather coat or A-2, as apposed to the CS "Dress" uniform wich calls for the double breasted jacket. Am I thinking right on this? Or, is CSU used to describe the version worn with the double breasted jacket and it's called something else when not worn with it?
  As far as the whole topic of saluting a person, whether it's required or not, if they're wearing any type of uniform that displays an officers rank ( I believe there's only one that doesn't), I think I'd salute them just out of respect ( to me it just seems the proper thing to do ), and I don't see it as a harm or infraction to do so...is it?

[JoeTomasone]

"White Aviator" refers to the combination with gray pants -- the uniform's official name in 39-1 is the White Aviator Shirt combination. 

The uniform combination with the same shirt, blue AF pants, and optional Corporate jacket is the Corporate Service Uniform - which both compares and contrasts it with the AF Service Uniform ("blues").

[Rob Sherlin]

 That clears it up a little.....I'll have to remember that while reading posts....Thank you Sir!

  ( I guess I'm still use to the ol' AFJROTC "Class A's, B's", etc., to describe different uniforms.....We also didn't have as many)

[DNall]

CAPP 151 is a guideline  not a Reg. It seems like CAP would want to retain members not alienate them. The pamphlet writers should stop marginalizing the folks who aren't eligible to wear the AF uniform. These are the folks who put in serious effort. I know of a CAP wing whose membership numbers are in free fall. 50% of squadrons gone. In companies like that people talk about member retention.

What? How is it alienating people? It says military style uniforms are required to render salutes, and corporate style are not. Do you expect to be saluted when wearing a golf shirt? There's also nothing that says members who do meet ht/wt/grooming cannot wear the corporate-style uniforms, and quite a few do.

And, the way this is done in the military, it's about what you are wearing, not the other person. If you recognize a superior officer, regardless of what they're wearing (to include civilian cloths) and you are in uniform, then you salute. If you are in civilian attire, then you render a verbal greeting. So, if you see your Gp CC wearing whatever, you should salute.

[dwb]

I think we're getting a little too wrapped up in the details here.

It is never inappropriate to show respect and courtesy towards a higher-ranking officer, regardless of the clothing they're wearing.

If that means someone in a corporate uniform gets a salute, then so be it.