TAKING on CAMP 39-1

Started by Major Carrales, August 15, 2007, 06:55:33 AM

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Major Carrales

The SQUADRON HOUSE LAWYER proudly presents...

"TAKING on CAMP 39-1"

(NOTE: the Following is an exercise in CAP Regulation jurisprudence.  It is sor tof for fun, but also to go over some of the REGS!)

Now, let's "take on" the first few phrases...

Quote1-1. Policy. CAP members are authorized to wear CAP distinctive uniforms as well as uniforms similar to the U.S. Air Force. Civil Air Patrol uses distinctive emblems, insignia, and badges to identify individuals wearing the AF-style uniforms as CAP members.

Simple, it seems to tell us that CAP members wear uniforms that look like USAF ones with some special "bling."  But is it that simple?  Some CAP Officers look on to USAF Instructions while wearing a CAP uniform, is that the "spirit" of what an "AF-style" uniform is?  So, is a CAP uniform of this style really a USAF uniform?  Not according to this.

QuoteWear of the AF-style uniforms, as well as the insignia, badges, and devices worn on these uniforms are as prescribed by the Commander, CAP-USAF, with the approval of Headquarters USAF. See Tables 1-1 through 1-3 for information on wearing the uniform, dress and appearance, where to purchase uniform items, and grooming standards.

This may harken back to the days when all uniforms were AF-Style.  It seems that Col Hodgkins and his fellows at CAP-USAF are the ultimate guardians of the AF-Style uniform.  So, they have no jurisdiction over the so-called TPU.  Not according to this...

QuoteCivil Air Patrol prescribes wear policy and the use of CAP emblems, insignia, and badges on the CAP distinctive uniforms. Table 1-3 describes items that may be authorized by wing/region commanders.

So, the TPU is a "CAP thing," along with Golf Shirts and "blue bags."  We, thus have a gray area on the wear of USAF should marks.  That is, if a USAF shoulder mark is an "AF-Style" uniform item.  Are blue shoulder marks with traditional US Army/ USAF style rank on them USAF specific uniform items?  Well, I guess you could look at Air Force Instructions...oops, but you really can't since they do not apply to "AF-Style" uniforms and, what's more, these are used on CAP Distinctives.

Confused?

Most gray areas are like that.

QuoteCOMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY.

I guess than means CAP Officers should read this.  Pity it is not included in the initial materials with membership.  So, what does that mean?  I guess if your gonna "CAP," you have to do it in compliance with CAPM 39-1.  If they are gonna make this kind of statement, they had better produce an EMACULATE and PERFECT edition of CAPM 39-1.  Anyone see one...anyone?

QuoteAny variation from this publication is not authorized. Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear.

Pretty clear.  You cannot vary from the presented material.  If it is not here, then don't wear it.  Let's just hope it all is.

Quote
NOTE: CAPMart may sell items that are not authorized for wear with the USAF–style or CAP distinctive uniforms.

Pity CAPMart no longer exists.  That being said, however... So, what does that mean.  CAP Approved vendors may sell useless items to membership? 

QuoteThis publication is the sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform combinations as prescribed within.

CAPM 39-1 is the only place  to teach how to wear and the only place from where to obtain items for CAP uniforms?

This phrase needs to be reworked a bit.  Is a CAP Officer to assume that this is the "sole source" for "authroized items for various uniform combinations" (too bad Vanguard, CAP members are only authorized to buy items from CAPM 39-1) 

Break it down:
This publication is the sole source for wear instructions as prescribed within. (makes sense)

This publication is the sole source for authorized items for various uniform combinations as prescribed within. (sounds like an ad or disclaimer for an "Official CAP Store")

There you go...pick a specious argument and have a blast...
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

RogueLeader

My Lawyer advised me not to say anything, until a policy letter came from NHQ. . . . .
WYWG DP

GRW 3340

Pylon

I'd rather see you guys contribute to threads in the professional areas on the site, but hey - that's just me.   :P
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

Major Carrales

#3
Quote from: Pylon on August 15, 2007, 11:23:30 AM
I'd rather see you guys contribute to threads in the professional areas on the site, but hey - that's just me.   :P

Ah...Michael, the point of this thread is to demonstrate how a reg can get twisted to mean anything, especially when it's poorly written.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

shorning

Quote from: Major Carrales on August 15, 2007, 04:33:27 PM
Ah...Michael, the point of this thread is to demonstrate how a reg can get twisted to mean anything, especially when it's poorly written.

That's not exactly a behavior I'd encourage.

Sgt. Savage

#5
Quote from: Major Carrales on August 15, 2007, 06:55:33 AM
QuoteThis publication is the sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform combinations as prescribed within.
CAPR39-1 also states in note 1, to table 6-5 regarding military badges:

Quote1. Badges are worn in the same position as they are worn on the Air Force uniform. If a CAP badge is
worn in the same position, the member must choose one to the exclusion of the other.

Aren't these two statements in direct conflict?

Minor edit to quote - MIKE

Major Carrales

#6
Quote from: shorning on August 15, 2007, 04:42:52 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on August 15, 2007, 04:33:27 PM
Ah...Michael, the point of this thread is to demonstrate how a reg can get twisted to mean anything, especially when it's poorly written.

That's not exactly a behavior I'd encourage.

Another point of this is for persons, like yourself, with knowledge on these matters...to insure that the gray areas are kept in check.  The Discussion the results, may actually refresh the memories of CAP Osficers and Cadets.

In that case, a benefit is generated.

We should be the guardians  of these issues...as will be demonstrated in the next installment of this thread.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

MIKE

What is CAMP 39-1 anyway?  A labor camp in Siberia for the interpretation and printing of uniform manuals, regulations and instructions?  >:D  ;D
Mike Johnston

Pylon

Quote from: Major Carrales on August 15, 2007, 04:33:27 PM
Quote from: Pylon on August 15, 2007, 11:23:30 AM
I'd rather see you guys contribute to threads in the professional areas on the site, but hey - that's just me.   :P

Ah...Michael, the point of this thread is to demonstrate how a reg can get twisted to mean anything, especially when it's poorly written.

I understand, but in the end we're still discussion our uniforms here, while a handful of recent threads on professional issues sit with few or no replies at all. 
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

Major Carrales

#9
Quote from: Pylon on August 15, 2007, 05:54:55 PM
I understand, but in the end we're still discussion our uniforms here, while a handful of recent threads on professional issues sit with few or no replies at all. 

I am besides myself in incredulous disbelief.  When I made that statement months ago I got scolded...(gasp)

Still, you are correct.  Lock the thread...  If fact, you could resolve that issue (once and for all) well if you eliminated the whole uniform section.  But, please, lock the thread.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

Pylon

Quote from: Major Carrales on August 15, 2007, 06:01:29 PM
I am besides myself in incredulous disbelief.  When I made that statement months ago I got scolded...(gasp)

It's always been the long-standing position here at CAPTalk that we want this to be a professional resource above all things.  The rumor discussions and endless uniform discussions, while they can be interesting and sometimes even productive, are not the primary intent of CAPTalk.

Quote from: Major Carrales on August 15, 2007, 06:01:29 PM
Still, you are correct.  Lock the thread...  If fact, you could resolve that issue (once and for all) well if you eliminated the whole uniform section.  But, please, lock the thread.

We don't moderate based on which threads we'd like to see discussed and which threads we'd prefer aren't discussed.  That also goes against what we try to do.  We only moderate when people step beyond the Code of Conduct.

You guys can keep chatting about uniforms, etc., and I understand wanting to improve CAPM 39-1.  It's been left in an atrocious mess as it stands right now.  I was merely making a note; it wasn't necessarily specific to just your thread.  You just happened to have the unlucky thread in which I posted my thoughts.  ;)     Carry on.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

Major Carrales

#11
Quote from: Pylon on August 15, 2007, 07:00:16 PM
You guys can keep chatting about uniforms, etc., and I understand wanting to improve CAPM 39-1.  It's been left in an atrocious mess as it stands right now.  I was merely making a note; it wasn't necessarily specific to just your thread.  You just happened to have the unlucky thread in which I posted my thoughts.  ;)

Understood, but...be advised, I had a really nice proposal for you.

I was going to write...

Quote
QuoteI'd rather see you guys contribute to threads in the professional areas on the site, but hey - that's just me.
"

My, that's a Bold Statement...but such bold statements without action are tantamount to another series of words that begin with the letters "B" and "S."  How about you close the UNIFORM and AWARDs section for one month...that would encourage people to post in the other more "operational" forums.

I was then going to make it more interesting by donating $20 to your squadron as compensation.

A bit "theatrical," I agree...but still it might have been fun in a "old school AROUND THE WORLD in 80 DAYs" kind of way.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: MIKE on August 15, 2007, 05:48:46 PM
What is CAMP 39-1 anyway?  A labor camp in Siberia for the interpretation and printing of uniform manuals, regulations and instructions?  >:D  ;D

Yes.  political dissidents are sent there and forced to work endless hours sewing silver braid onto TPU's.
Another former CAP officer

BillB

CAMP 39-1 is the motor pool where all the CAP black vans are stored
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

RogueLeader

Quote from: BillB on August 15, 2007, 08:04:39 PM
CAMP 39-1 is the motor pool where all the CAP black vans are stored
I thought that was CAMP 2B >:D
WYWG DP

GRW 3340

davedove

Quote from: RogueLeader on August 15, 2007, 08:08:04 PM
Quote from: BillB on August 15, 2007, 08:04:39 PM
CAMP 39-1 is the motor pool where all the CAP black vans are stored
I thought that was CAMP 2B >:D

That's just what they want you to think. >:D
David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Personnel/PD/Asst. Testing Officer
Ground Team Leader
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

Sgt. Savage

Who hijacked this thread anyway?

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: Sgt. Savage on August 15, 2007, 09:15:27 PM
Who hijacked this thread anyway?

I'm not sure, but he works in Area 51.
Another former CAP officer

RogueLeader

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 15, 2007, 09:27:19 PM
Quote from: Sgt. Savage on August 15, 2007, 09:15:27 PM
Who hijacked this thread anyway?

I'm not sure, but he works in Area 51.

Looks like MIKE started it ^^^^^/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\^^^^^^^^
WYWG DP

GRW 3340

MIKE

Mike Johnston

RogueLeader

WYWG DP

GRW 3340

mikeylikey

^ here comes the ever so infamous..........LOCK
What's up monkeys?