Proposal 3: Uniform Issues

[Major Carrales]

This is not really a Uniform thread, but at base, is seems to be.  if so, may it be moved.

That being said, we are an organization that is split in its existance.  The USAF and the CAP Distinctive.  We have those that are prior service and those that have never served a day in the Service.  We also have those that are out of certain standards.  To this issue, our USAF benefactors have mandated that these certain cannot wear the USAF Style uniform.

Many proposals have been made over the last few years, likely as many as uniform combinations. 

We should strive for a uniform appearance.  The following is how I would address the matter to the most limited scope of uniforms for the most limited sorts of events.

Uniforms would be consolidated to 1 USAF style and 1 CAP Distinctive style.  They would parallel each other.  Cadets would be bound to USAF Style and Seniors could choose...

The "occasions" are as followed: Mess Dress (for the most formal affairs), Formal Dress (for those occasions to where a "business suit" would be worn), Semi-Formal (basically, a shirt and tie combo), Minimum Basic SERVICE DRESS (short sleeve combo...with/without ribbons and a flight cap for daily meeting use/base staff), Field Dress (BDU, ACU) (the dress of the Ground teams) and the Flight Suit (the garb of aviators).

These will create a "culture" for each uniform.  Limited to the following combos...

USAF STYLE                                    CAP DISTINCTIVE

MESS DRESS                                   Standard Clack TUX w/ CAP Regalia and Minimedals
FORMAL SERVICE DRESS                 CAP SERVICE DRESS (USAF Style grey epaulets)
SEMI-FORMAL SERVICE DRESS        While Shirt, CAP Should Marks, blue pants, Blue Tie
Minimum Basic SERVICE DRESS        Short Sleeve White Shirt, blue pants
Field Dress (BDU, ACU)                     Blue BDUs
USAF Flight SUIT                              CAP Flight Suit

What's more, there would be defined times to wear.  Meetings would be in Minimum Basic Service Dress (temperature and weather specific) or Semi- Formal (tie version).  SARex would be Fligth suit and/or BDUs for operational people and missions base staff in  Minimum Basic Service Dress.

No golf shirts...if one can put on a pair of pants and a pull over shirt then one can put on a pair of pants and a shirt that buttons in the front (and iron/press it).  Since we don't wear it daily, that should not be an issue.

Please comment and adjust as necessary.

[Eeyore]

I like it... make it so.

[SarDragon]

And what do the fuzzies wear?

[Eeyore]

The CAP distinctive.

[Major Carrales]

And what do the fuzzie wear?

CAP DISTINCTIVE, the beard would be allowed if properly trimmed.  Trimming a beard is not to much to ask, surely not as much as shaving it off.

The idea of CAP DISTINCTIVE should allow for ONE alternative, not a slew of them.  Thus, the CAP DISTINCTIVE should be able to be worn by all.  That is a failing of the current "corporate dress," its exclusive nature makes it a bit...well, moot at best...pointless at worst.

[Hawk200]

I think a reduction of uniforms would be a good thing. And I think two sets would be just fine. One AF, one corp.

As far as the corporate side goes, it's a mess. A person wearing blues looks like the next wearing blues, but one person wearing a corporate doesn't necessarily match another wearing corporates. There's blue/white, grey/white, and grey/golf. And with golf, there's three variations authorized.

On the AF variants, it's with a coat, or without. On the without, it's long or short sleeve. Very little variation.

On the utility side, why do we even need a jumpsuit when there is now a corporate BDU? It's a carryover that served little purpose.

I wouldn't bother with "Formal" or "Semi-formal" uniform variations. In the Air Force, "Service Dress" means you're wearing the jacket. "Blues" means anything up to, but not necessarily including Service Dress. Keep it simple.

I hope you mean "ABU", and not "ACU". If you mean "ABU", then no issues. If you mean "ACU", that's the "Army Combat Uniform". And I can guarantee we're not getting those. The Air Force would have kittens. (Which could be entertaining. )

As for designated times for certain uniforms, I wouldn't bother. There are people that would rather spend the money on one or two sets of BDUs, and the rest on something else. Like dues. We have a body or two in our unit that are that strapped. And I wouldn't force them to make the choice between a uniform and maintaining a membership if you put a gun to my head. I've helped people get out fitted when it came to uniforms for CAP, spent a few of my own dollars. I'd rather not see it restrictive.

[lordmonar]

Why have two sets?

Pick one or the other.

The only regulation that gives the USAF a veto on the USAF style uniform is a CAP regulation.  Federal Law permits us to wear any.....yes any....military style uniforms so long as we wear a big patch on the shoulder saying who we really are.  That is how ACA is able to use any uniform they want and most military schools.

So....either pick the corporates or the USAF style but not both.

[Hawk200]

Why have two sets?

Pick one or the other.

The only regulation that gives the USAF a veto on the USAF style uniform is a CAP regulation.  Federal Law permits us to wear any.....yes any....military style uniforms so long as we wear a big patch on the shoulder saying who we really are.  That is how ACA is able to use any uniform they want and most military schools.

So....either pick the corporates or the USAF style but not both.

OK. Who do you give up? Your choices are the ones that want the corporate, or the ones that want military. Who are you going to sacrifice?

It would be delusional to think that no one would leave over a major change like that.

[Major Carrales]

I hope you mean "ABU", and not "ACU". If you mean "ABU", then no issues. If you mean "ACU", that's the "Army Combat Uniform". And I can guarantee we're not getting those. The Air Force would have kittens. (Which could be entertaining. )

As for designated times for certain uniforms, I wouldn't bother. There are people that would rather spend the money on one or two sets of BDUs, and the rest on something else. Like dues. We have a body or two in our unit that are that strapped. And I wouldn't force them to make the choice between a uniform and maintaining a membership if you put a gun to my head. I've helped people get out fitted when it came to uniforms for CAP, spent a few of my own dollars. I'd rather not see it restrictive.

The "ACU" I used only as an example of  field uniform.  "ABU" should have been there as well.  I appologize.

Ideally, the existing Corp Service Coat woudl be the best way to go...since many people already have them.  I chose to use the "Service Coat with Grey epaulets" to avoid the endless debates about the so-called "TPU."  My original draft had that...but, that's life.

I went back to the old WWII idea of "layering."  Exactally for those with limited funds.  

The idea being...

1) I've joined, buy 1 pair of blue USAF style pants, 1 USAF style shirt short sleeve (or white aviator shirt), a nametag black oxfords.   Flight CAP.

2) Six Months later, buy 2d Lt shoulder marks, get a white long sleeve aviator shirt (or USAF long sleeve...10 dollars from OLC.  Save up for Flight Suit/ or BDUs (likely cheap form surplus store).

3) A year later, update shoulder marks (if lucky the Squadron had bought some senior member shoulder marks and let's you trade out as you advance...I am going to do this in my unit and my expense once I've finished doing the same for cadets) buy high gloss dress Oxfords.

4) Within the next year, save up and purchase service coat.  

5) By the Rank of Captain one has a service coat, service cap, Flight/Field uniform, meeting uniform and built up to it over time.  

[lordmonar]

You don't give up anyone.....people don't join CAP for the uniform.

If someone quits because of a stupid uniform...we don't need him or want him (or I don't).

But having two uniforms base on preference and/or weight/grooming standards creates an unnecessary Us vs Them situation.  

One uniform one team!

[Major Carrales]

Why have two sets?

Pick one or the other.

The only regulation that gives the USAF a veto on the USAF style uniform is a CAP regulation.  Federal Law permits us to wear any.....yes any....military style uniforms so long as we wear a big patch on the shoulder saying who we really are.  That is how ACA is able to use any uniform they want and most military schools.

So....either pick the corporates or the USAF style but not both.

OK. Who do you give up? Your choices are the ones that want the corporate, or the ones that want military. Who are you going to sacrifice?

It would be delusional to think that no one would leave over a major change like that.

I agree with Hawk...and I'll go further with my famous hyperbole.  

If we had to "give one up" it would have to be the USAF style because it is restrictive by nature...whereas any CAP DISTINCTIVE uniform would exist based on the whim of the time.  It could be a "gray jumpsuit," or an "powder blue Ike Jacket" number.  It might be a golf shirt and shorts.

The only way to keep the USAF style, and maintain that link, is to have an alternative for those that cannot meet the standards (for whatever valid reason)  If we are to have an alternative, then I say let us have but ONE!!!

[ZigZag911]

If I understand Lord M correctly, he's saying that it is only CAP regulations that limit who can/ or cannot wear USAF uniform....in other words, back when this whole furor arose in the mid to late 80s, apparently, by affixing a 'CAP' national organizational patch (say to the shoulder opposite the one with wing patch), everyone could have continued using USAF style right through to today.

I did not know this....and can only imagine that CAP leadership chose to go the corporate route to maintain harmony with USAF leadership -- it might have been
legal for CAP to ignore the Air Force's views on uniforms/grooming/height-weight standards, but probably would not have been prudent.

[RogueLeader]

Why have two sets?

Pick one or the other.

The only regulation that gives the USAF a veto on the USAF style uniform is a CAP regulation.  Federal Law permits us to wear any.....yes any....military style uniforms so long as we wear a big patch on the shoulder saying who we really are.  That is how ACA is able to use any uniform they want and most military schools.

So....either pick the corporates or the USAF style but not both.

Gee, if corporates are picked, I- and those like me- will leave.  If USAF are chosen, people like Lt.Col. Bagley will leave.  Who are you willing to lose?

I think that a commander could control the formality level by having a UOD schedule that all know. For example: weeks 1,2,4 are mainly cadets, so UOD would be utilities, and the 3rd week is the combined meeting, so UOD is basic Service Dress.  For those who can afford them, when a dignitary comes to visit, be them Wing, Group, or other High ranking Civilian such as Mayor, City Manager, etc- wear the service coat as well.

[Major Carrales]

You don't give up anyone.....people don't join CAP for the uniform.

If someone quits because of a stupid uniform...we don't need him or want him (or I don't).

But having two uniforms base on preference and/or weight/grooming standards creates an unnecessary Us vs Them situation.  

One uniform one team!

I disagree, that situation would only exist in a "petty minded" organization, I think more highly of us.  I think, rather, that is solves the problem nicely  to have a "one on one" alternative that everyone could wear.

If I wanted to wear the alternative, it would be there for me...even if I meet the standards.

Fact is, we have a uniform and should have one...it is the sign of a professional organization.  This is recognized from bus drivers to EMS personel, from police departments to the USAF.

The only other alternative would be to have one uniform...a utility sort that could be modified to appear formal.  I don't know about you, but I would not like to wear something that looks like "Star Trek: Enterprise." where they wear a blue "flight suit" like uniform for all occasions and wear a tie under it to apprear "formal."

[Hawk200]

I went back to the old WWII idea of "layering."  Exactally for those with limited funds.  

The idea being...

1) I've joined, buy 1 pair of blue USAF style pants, 1 USAF style shirt short sleeve (or white aviator shirt), a nametag black oxfords.   Flight CAP.

2) Six Months later, buy 2d Lt shoulder marks, get a white long sleeve aviator shirt (or USAF long sleeve...10 dollars from OLC.  Save up for Flight Suit/ or BDUs (likely cheap form surplus store).

3) A year later, update shoulder marks (if lucky the Squadron had bought some senior member shoulder marks and let's you trade out as you advance...I am going to do this in my unit and my expense once I've finished doing the same for cadets) buy high gloss dress Oxfords.

4) Within the next year, save up and purchase service coat.  

5) By the Rank of Captain one has a service coat, service cap, Flight/Field uniform, meeting uniform and built up to it over time.  

Certainly a practice straight out of that era, and an example of how people tended to make a practice of "look before you leap" back then. Is it possible to pine for "good ol' days" that you're nowhere near old enough to experience? Those time periods seem to be so much classier than the present.

Anyway, how do propose to handle the issue of field work? Your method is a remarkably simple and practical method, but it does kind of restrict some activities a person would be able to perform. Utilities are generally easier and cheaper to obtain than the dressier stuff, and you can go tromping around the woods in them all day.

[Hawk200]

The only way to keep the USAF style, and maintain that link, is to have an alternative for those that cannot meet the standards (for whatever valid reason)  If we are to have an alternative, then I say let us have but ONE!!!

Let's hope that a few more people in the right places listen to this same voice of reason.

[Hawk200]

You don't give up anyone.....people don't join CAP for the uniform.

I don't know whether to be puzzled or shocked. Have you actually been reading this board?

But having two uniforms base on preference and/or weight/grooming standards creates an unnecessary Us vs Them situation.

There already is an "Us vs. Them". Unfortunately, we have some idiots that think that anyone wearing anything other than AF variant is inferior. An utterly moronic belief, but it is here. Give it a few minutes, they'll show up to protest.

[Major Carrales]

Certainly a practice straight out of that era, and an example of how people tended to make a practice of "look before you leap" back then. Is it possible to pine for "good ol' days" that you're nowhere near old enough to experience? Those time periods seem to be so much classier than the present.

Anyway, how do propose to handle the issue of field work? Your method is a remarkably simple and practical method, but it does kind of restrict some activities a person would be able to perform. Utilities are generally easier and cheaper to obtain than the dressier stuff, and you can go tromping around the woods in them all day.

I'm not really trying to pine for "those days," but rather taking a practice that may work for us from those times.  Granted, there are some here what would like us in Silvertans and Ike Jackets, and I too (as many from my time) do stand in awe of that Generation.

The method I propose is merely the rationale behind my uniform choices, based on what I would do (and have done). Utilities should be added to that list, if is what is called for.  But, then again, I've seen police and EMS personnel preform similar jobs in what amounts to Minimum Service Dress.

Minimum Service Dress, in my opinion, is a universal uniform for the area in which I live and operate.  If you had to you could do ES (UDF and the like) in it, you can make it more formal simply by adding ribbons and a service cap and it is not dissimilar from what many small business commercial pilots fly in.  That is my rationale.

A Utility uniform can do much of the same, so a 2d Lt with Minimum Service Dress and a set of BDUs has it made.

[SARMedTech]

Why have two sets?

Pick one or the other.

The only regulation that gives the USAF a veto on the USAF style uniform is a CAP regulation.  Federal Law permits us to wear any.....yes any....military style uniforms so long as we wear a big patch on the shoulder saying who we really are.  That is how ACA is able to use any uniform they want and most military schools.

So....either pick the corporates or the USAF style but not both.

Gee, if corporates are picked, I- and those like me- will leave.  If USAF are chosen, people like Lt.Col. Bagley will leave.  Who are you willing to lose?

I think that a commander could control the formality level by having a UOD schedule that all know. For example: weeks 1,2,4 are mainly cadets, so UOD would be utilities, and the 3rd week is the combined meeting, so UOD is basic Service Dress.  For those who can afford them, when a dignitary comes to visit, be them Wing, Group, or other High ranking Civilian such as Mayor, City Manager, etc- wear the service coat as well.

Im willing to lose anyone who would leave because of what we wear. Do you suppose that those who join the Armed Forces knowing they will be sent to Iraq or AFGN do so because they will be allowed to wear "digitals?" I doubt it. Im sort of weary of the argument that folks join to be able to dress in uniform. If thats the case, they should save themselves money and CAP alot of time and go to their local uniform/surplus shop, get some ABUs, ACUs, whatever and where them to mow the lawn. They can even wear a beret or boonies.

The fact that uniforms spin of thread after thread after thread is a disturbing thing and the fact that so many continue to but heads like mountain sheep is even more disturbing.

So far, Major Carrales has provided the only logical, sensible solution and addressed how regulation would determine what is worn and by whom. Blue shirt or white shirt. Camo or blue. Simple and straightforward, no ambiguity and no one left out. Same pips and strips and patches on both and off we go, into the wild blue yonder.

If the good Major has not yet been recognized for his common sense approach to common sense problems (actually they are issues until the membership gets ahold of them which is where they become problems) then he should be. We cant all wear AFs and some of use refuse to wear corporates, so the only answer that makes sense, saves money and eliminates the constant debating is two sets of uniforms one AF and one distinctive which mirror each other in style and function. I say submit it to NHQ and begin implementation ASAP.

[AlphaSigOU]

The senior-squadron-polo-shirt-wearing-flying-club-types will positively have a conniption fit if their beloved polo shirt combination ceases to be a valid uniform.