OK have ORANGE uniforms been seriously proposed for ES?

[Nomex Maximus]

I just got my new green flightsuit from Aureus.  Just 8 more pounds to lose and I can actually wear it in public.

Anyhow, the catalog they sent me plainly shows a nomex orange flightsuit as would be worn by EMS aircrews. It looks perfectly sensible and professional. I don't think any EMS flightcrew member wearing that kind of flightsuit has ever been mistaken for a prisoner. Aureus' website lists it at $195.  A green flightsuit would cost $20 less, presumably as they are produced in greater quantities for the military.

I used to be a police officer a long time ago. The sheriff had us wearing black coats , blue shirts and black pants. One evening, I was sent to help break up an out-of-control party and help direct traffic away from the area.  So there I am standing in a street at midnight with my black coat and black pants wondering why people keep not seeing me, what with my 2 1/2 inch gold star and my flashlight. Not a very practical uniform for what I needed to be doing that evening...

The point of the uniform is not how "cool" it makes us look but how practical it is for what we are doing. We need to be identified as volunteer professional emergency workers and we need uniforms and clothing that helps us do that work. In any event the "coolness" factor comes from being seen in the community as capable and prepared emergency workers.

...I'm going to sleep in this thing tonight...

[Smokey]

CAWG has also authorized the orange nomex flightsuit.  A pilot in my squadron has one (custom made). Yes he does stand out !!!!!!!

I think it looks awful......I just can't stand orange flightsuits.

And yes, some inmates in California wear orange jumpsuits.  SO....as Kach sez...I'd rather be mistaken for the AF than an escapee.

[O-Rex]

CAWG has also authorized the orange nomex flightsuit.  A pilot in my squadron has one (custom made). Yes he does stand out !!!!!!!

I think it looks awful......I just can't stand orange flightsuits.

And yes, some inmates in California wear orange jumpsuits.  SO....as Kach sez...I'd rather be mistaken for the AF than an escapee.

Once upon a time the Military (except Marines) briefly used orange flightsuits for nontactical use in CONUS, and I remember that USCG had them for a time. 

That was then, this is now...

Note "custom made:"  until DOD, HLS or LE starts buying them in bulk, it's just not commercially viable, so they will be expensive.

Operational CAP-wear is more about what's available that what's fashionable.

Hi-viz vest should suffice for our ops.  For air, it's not the color of you flightsuit, rather than the range of your ELT/PLB.

and a reflective 'space blanket' is only $5 and stows anywhere.

Nomex Maximus- Enjoy: there's nothing like the feel of a new-out-of-the-bag flightsuit.  For keep that like-new look & feel, woolite & hang-dry.

[SARMedTech]

Sounds like you need better vests. A good one will show up like a bonfire in the middle of the night.

That's not the point.  Camo for SAR is a bad choice, even if an orange vest is worn.  Blue shows up better.  What if you're in a position where the vest is hidden?  The camo is going to hide you in the foliage.  Blue, however, won't.   

I say blue BDUs only for GT, and bright yellow vests instead of orange. 

What position are you going to in where the vest is hidden, but you can see the rest? Besides, it's dark blue. It's also a scientific fact that the color blue is the most difficult for the human eye to register. And currently, the US military, in general, doesn't use any camouflage that's 100 percent effective in any environment anyway. You're not going to get lost in the woods, unless you're trying to.

Bright yellow vests I would agree with. As long as they're ANSI type vests (which means retina searing lime colors, essentially). They work better at night too.

That blinding lime green is called International Yellow and that one you can see for miles over open ground.

[SARMedTech]

I just got my new green flightsuit from Aureus.  Just 8 more pounds to lose and I can actually wear it in public.

Anyhow, the catalog they sent me plainly shows a nomex orange flightsuit as would be worn by EMS aircrews. It looks perfectly sensible and professional. I don't think any EMS flightcrew member wearing that kind of flightsuit has ever been mistaken for a prisoner. Aureus' website lists it at $195.  A green flightsuit would cost $20 less, presumably as they are produced in greater quantities for the military.

I used to be a police officer a long time ago. The sheriff had us wearing black coats , blue shirts and black pants. One evening, I was sent to help break up an out-of-control party and help direct traffic away from the area.  So there I am standing in a street at midnight with my black coat and black pants wondering why people keep not seeing me, what with my 2 1/2 inch gold star and my flashlight. Not a very practical uniform for what I needed to be doing that evening...

The point of the uniform is not how "cool" it makes us look but how practical it is for what we are doing. We need to be identified as volunteer professional emergency workers and we need uniforms and clothing that helps us do that work. In any event the "coolness" factor comes from being seen in the community as capable and prepared emergency workers.

...I'm going to sleep in this thing tonight...

We have 5 ems aircrews in my city and none of them wear orange...I have worked with aircrews all over the country and have never seen one that does. Theres no point. Furthermore, if you were carrying a patient with a head injury or seizures, its well documented that loud noises, sudden movements and bright colors can trigger seizures. The only time I have seen flight crews in orange is when they are out on the LZ helping to package the patient, never on board.

[SARMedTech]

Sounds like you need better vests. A good one will show up like a bonfire in the middle of the night.

That's not the point.  Camo for SAR is a bad choice, even if an orange vest is worn.  Blue shows up better.  What if you're in a position where the vest is hidden?  What if all your webgrear is hiding the vest?  The camo is going to hide you in the foliage.  Blue, however, won't.   

I say blue BDUs only for GT, and bright yellow vests instead of orange. 

1. The blue BDUs dont show up any better than the camos. The shade (called LAPD Blue by Propper) also disappears in underbrush, especially in low light, so thats not really valid.

2. If your vest is hidden by your web gear, then you are too "high speed" for your own good and are wearing too much web gear.

I do agree the International Yellow are better because over open ground they have a longer visibility range than orange, especially with the reflective stripes on them.

[Chaplaindon]

I just got my new green flightsuit from Aureus.  Just 8 more pounds to lose and I can actually wear it in public.

Anyhow, the catalog they sent me plainly shows a nomex orange flightsuit as would be worn by EMS aircrews. It looks perfectly sensible and professional. I don't think any EMS flightcrew member wearing that kind of flightsuit has ever been mistaken for a prisoner. Aureus' website lists it at $195.  A green flightsuit would cost $20 less, presumably as they are produced in greater quantities for the military.

I used to be a police officer a long time ago. The sheriff had us wearing black coats , blue shirts and black pants. One evening, I was sent to help break up an out-of-control party and help direct traffic away from the area.  So there I am standing in a street at midnight with my black coat and black pants wondering why people keep not seeing me, what with my 2 1/2 inch gold star and my flashlight. Not a very practical uniform for what I needed to be doing that evening...

The point of the uniform is not how "cool" it makes us look but how practical it is for what we are doing. We need to be identified as volunteer professional emergency workers and we need uniforms and clothing that helps us do that work. In any event the "coolness" factor comes from being seen in the community as capable and prepared emergency workers.

...I'm going to sleep in this thing tonight...

We have 5 ems aircrews in my city and none of them wear orange...I have worked with aircrews all over the country and have never seen one that does. Theres no point. Furthermore, if you were carrying a patient with a head injury or seizures, its well documented that loud noises, sudden movements and bright colors can trigger seizures. The only time I have seen flight crews in orange is when they are out on the LZ helping to package the patient, never on board.

As a former flight paramedic for a hospital-based HEMS program, I know that we had an affiliated program that had their flight crews wear blaze orange flighsuits. To my knowledge there were no issues of malpractice associated with the color. In fact, for a while we wore similarly bright (red) flight uniforms as well.

[Eagle400]

I do agree the International Yellow are better because over open ground they have a longer visibility range than orange, especially with the reflective stripes on them.

Question: is there anything stopping ground teams from wearing the International Yellow vests? 

I know that bright orange boonie caps are not allowed per the 39-1, but they are a smart idea, too. 

[Hawk200]

Question: is there anything stopping ground teams from wearing the International Yellow vests? 

I know that bright orange boonie caps are not allowed per the 39-1, but they are a smart idea, too. 

Pubs, and insurance. That's probably about it. The pub can be changed easily, and it wouldn't take too much to convince our insurance carrier that International Yellow is actually more visible.

I remember that some aircrews in Alaska hated orange in the fall. Half the leaves are the same color, and you couldn't discern a body from 500 ft from the foliage.

[Eagle400]

Pubs, and insurance. That's probably about it. The pub can be changed easily, and it wouldn't take too much to convince our insurance carrier that International Yellow is actually more visible.

You mean that wearing an orange vest while on GT can mean the difference between getting and not getting life insurance on a mission?!?

Sorry, but if I was on GT, I'd take the risk and go with the yellow vest.   

[Hawk200]

You mean that wearing an orange vest while on GT can mean the difference between getting and not getting life insurance on a mission?!?

Sorry, but if I was on GT, I'd take the risk and go with the yellow vest. 

It could. Not wearing any designated uniform properly (meaning with all authorized and required insignia) could result in no coverage. It's nitpicky, but it's legal. Even the military has been known to charge for medical care when the incident wasn't in line of duty or basically resulted from doing something that you just weren't supposed to be doing.

As for choosing, you may not have that option. Whoever is in charge of you may tell you that since you're not wearing authorized gear, you don't go on the mission. And there wouldn't be a thing you could do about it.

[SARMedTech]

I just got my new green flightsuit from Aureus.  Just 8 more pounds to lose and I can actually wear it in public.

Anyhow, the catalog they sent me plainly shows a nomex orange flightsuit as would be worn by EMS aircrews. It looks perfectly sensible and professional. I don't think any EMS flightcrew member wearing that kind of flightsuit has ever been mistaken for a prisoner. Aureus' website lists it at $195.  A green flightsuit would cost $20 less, presumably as they are produced in greater quantities for the military.

I used to be a police officer a long time ago. The sheriff had us wearing black coats , blue shirts and black pants. One evening, I was sent to help break up an out-of-control party and help direct traffic away from the area.  So there I am standing in a street at midnight with my black coat and black pants wondering why people keep not seeing me, what with my 2 1/2 inch gold star and my flashlight. Not a very practical uniform for what I needed to be doing that evening...

The point of the uniform is not how "cool" it makes us look but how practical it is for what we are doing. We need to be identified as volunteer professional emergency workers and we need uniforms and clothing that helps us do that work. In any event the "coolness" factor comes from being seen in the community as capable and prepared emergency workers.

...I'm going to sleep in this thing tonight...

We have 5 ems aircrews in my city and none of them wear orange...I have worked with aircrews all over the country and have never seen one that does. Theres no point. Furthermore, if you were carrying a patient with a head injury or seizures, its well documented that loud noises, sudden movements and bright colors can trigger seizures. The only time I have seen flight crews in orange is when they are out on the LZ helping to package the patient, never on board.

As a former flight paramedic for a hospital-based HEMS program, I know that we had an affiliated program that had their flight crews wear blaze orange flighsuits. To my knowledge there were no issues of malpractice associated with the color. In fact, for a while we wore similarly bright (red) flight uniforms as well.

If you re-read my post you will see that I never mentioned malpractice issues, simply that it has been documented by the AMA, JEMS, etc that bright colors, rapid movements, loud noises, strobing lights (the reason that if at all possible a post-ictal patient is not transported code 3 by ground) and even the stobe-like effect of a spinning rotor can trigger status epilepticus in a patient with a history of generalized tonic clonic seizure, especially acute onset. As a respiratory therapist/flight EMT I have flown with two seperate HEMS (often also called HETS for helicopter evacuation and transport services) who wore neutral or darkly colored flight suits specifically because many trauma patients tend to panic in flight and as with seizures it has been shown that sensory over stimulation can cause the panic to become intensified necessitating paralytic assisted intubation simply because you cannot have someone thrashing around in the back of a BK-117 at 175 miles an hour unless you get your kicks auto rotating out of the sky. As a side note, when I work in the Canadian oilfields and have to rapel out of a chopper to pick up a patient, we cover their eyes with a sleep mask so that they arent sickened or frightened by looking up into the spinning rotor (also helps keeps them from getting blasted with down wash).

[JohnKachenmeister]

You mean that wearing an orange vest while on GT can mean the difference between getting and not getting life insurance on a mission?!?

Sorry, but if I was on GT, I'd take the risk and go with the yellow vest. 

It could. Not wearing any designated uniform properly (meaning with all authorized and required insignia) could result in no coverage. It's nitpicky, but it's legal. Even the military has been known to charge for medical care when the incident wasn't in line of duty or basically resulted from doing something that you just weren't supposed to be doing.

As for choosing, you may not have that option. Whoever is in charge of you may tell you that since you're not wearing authorized gear, you don't go on the mission. And there wouldn't be a thing you could do about it.

I don't think there would be many reasonable people who would go to the wall over the difference between yellow and orange.  It reminds me of a hit-skip accident where the witness described a car as "Tan" but the defense attorney produced pictures showing that the car was "Clearly gray."  The plate matched within 1 digit that the witness got wrong (He read it as a "O" or "Zero," it was actually a "Q").  The defendant got out 60 days later.

[SARMedTech]

Pubs, and insurance. That's probably about it. The pub can be changed easily, and it wouldn't take too much to convince our insurance carrier that International Yellow is actually more visible.

You mean that wearing an orange vest while on GT can mean the difference between getting and not getting life insurance on a mission?!?

Sorry, but if I was on GT, I'd take the risk and go with the yellow vest.   

Actually if the IC says he wants you in a blaze orange teddy from Fredricks of Hollywood, that is the uniform of the day and you can be ordered to stand down and return to mission base. That is why he is the Incident COMMANDER...He Who Must be Obeyed. Its good to be king...I once commandered an elementary school as an operations base during a mass casualty incident-bus vs train. It had everything we needed: desks, chairs, tables, rooms for the different teams, comms, food, a kitchen, bathrooms, showers in the gym and the concrete playground made a dandy LZ.

[SARMedTech]

You mean that wearing an orange vest while on GT can mean the difference between getting and not getting life insurance on a mission?!?

Sorry, but if I was on GT, I'd take the risk and go with the yellow vest. 

It could. Not wearing any designated uniform properly (meaning with all authorized and required insignia) could result in no coverage. It's nitpicky, but it's legal. Even the military has been known to charge for medical care when the incident wasn't in line of duty or basically resulted from doing something that you just weren't supposed to be doing.

As for choosing, you may not have that option. Whoever is in charge of you may tell you that since you're not wearing authorized gear, you don't go on the mission. And there wouldn't be a thing you could do about it.

I don't think there would be many reasonable people who would go to the wall over the difference between yellow and orange.  It reminds me of a hit-skip accident where the witness described a car as "Tan" but the defense attorney produced pictures showing that the car was "Clearly gray."  The plate matched within 1 digit that the witness got wrong (He read it as a "O" or "Zero," it was actually a "Q").  The defendant got out 60 days later.

Actually, depending where in the country, or world, you are, there can be a difference in meaning between blaze orange and international yellow. IY usually designates fire, EMS, sometimes police while orange often indicates technical rescue, utility workers on scene to shut down power, road crews during an accident, etc. Not always the case, but it can sometimes make a difference. Besides, why are we having this discussion...orange is CAPS regs so orange it is. Whats the problem. Even in the dark, if you have safety orange with reflective stripes, a fairly decent candlepower flashlight is going to bounce of that thing just fine from a very long distance. Im also for (unlike combat troops) us wearing things that rattle and clank: dog tags, tin mess cups even little bells on the boots, all of which I have done on SARs. The more senses you can stimulate to let your lost person know you are out there and headed their way the better they can assist you in getting found by hollaring, popping a flare or cyalume, using an emergency whistle, etc.

[Hawk200]

...Im also for (unlike combat troops) us wearing things that rattle and clank: dog tags, tin mess cups even little bells on the boots, all of which I have done on SARs. The more senses you can stimulate to let your lost person know you are out there and headed their way the better they can assist you in getting found by hollaring, popping a flare or cyalume, using an emergency whistle, etc.

You know, that's one of those simple things that no one ever thinks of.

If I were looking at night, I'd probably figure out someway to affix a Firefly to my headgear. Blowing a whistle every now and then would probably not be a bad idea either.

[SARMedTech]

...Im also for (unlike combat troops) us wearing things that rattle and clank: dog tags, tin mess cups even little bells on the boots, all of which I have done on SARs. The more senses you can stimulate to let your lost person know you are out there and headed their way the better they can assist you in getting found by hollaring, popping a flare or cyalume, using an emergency whistle, etc.

You know, that's one of those simple things that no one ever thinks of.

If I were looking at night, I'd probably figure out someway to affix a Firefly to my headgear. Blowing a whistle every now and then would probably not be a bad idea either.

You mean the SMWOG actually had an idea someone liked.  I think I may faint. yeah, it could get a little annoying, but during a night search in the Sandia Mountains  we wore small christmas bells, two on each boot, up near the top. Just dont do like a cadet in my squadron recently did and wear a 60 hour battery emergency strobe on your LBV. He got to play with it for about 20 minutes before we took it away from him. Also, does anyone out there actually wear dogtags...I had been thinking of getting some made up as gifts for the members of my squadron if I could get their blood types. I know the cadets would love them. I have actually seen a set of tags in a surplus that had belonged to I dont know who that said, Type Unknown, Use Universal on the blood type line. I was thinking of getting them printed with name, CAPID, blood type and religion.

[SARMedTech]

I just got my new green flightsuit from Aureus.  Just 8 more pounds to lose and I can actually wear it in public.

Anyhow, the catalog they sent me plainly shows a nomex orange flightsuit as would be worn by EMS aircrews. It looks perfectly sensible and professional. I don't think any EMS flightcrew member wearing that kind of flightsuit has ever been mistaken for a prisoner. Aureus' website lists it at $195.  A green flightsuit would cost $20 less, presumably as they are produced in greater quantities for the military.

I used to be a police officer a long time ago. The sheriff had us wearing black coats , blue shirts and black pants. One evening, I was sent to help break up an out-of-control party and help direct traffic away from the area.  So there I am standing in a street at midnight with my black coat and black pants wondering why people keep not seeing me, what with my 2 1/2 inch gold star and my flashlight. Not a very practical uniform for what I needed to be doing that evening...

The point of the uniform is not how "cool" it makes us look but how practical it is for what we are doing. We need to be identified as volunteer professional emergency workers and we need uniforms and clothing that helps us do that work. In any event the "coolness" factor comes from being seen in the community as capable and prepared emergency workers.

...I'm going to sleep in this thing tonight...

Thats why as a deputy you should have taken the personal initiative to wear either reflective or glow tape, or stick a cyalume in your hat band. And I prefer to think of us as "Unpaid Professionals." Or mercenary if youre a pilot 

[wingnut]

The Blaze orange flight suit was standard issue before Vietnam, made lots of sense if down in any environment, pre ELT days the aircrew wanted all the extra help they could get.

However A fat CAP guy in an orange flight suit does rather make him look like a Pumpkin

[sardak]

Regarding visibility, here are sections of some studies. These are all copied directly from the reports so that I wouldn't screw something up.
---------------------
In a large-scale survey that MN DOT conducted at the Minnesota State Fair in 1990, four mannequins were displayed, each with a different, fluorescent-colored jumpsuit [some sources say vests] on. Fair attendees were asked which mannequin appeared "the most visible" to them. The results are as follows: fluorescent yellow: 5,796, fluorescent green: 2,706, fluorescent orange: 2,231 and fluorescent pink: 2,017.

Of the 119 color-blind voters, 115 selected the fluorescent yellow.
----------
A more recent study, "High Visibility Clothing for Daytime Use in Work Zones," investigated 11 colors: 8 fluorescent, 2 non-fluorescent, and 1 semi-fluorescent. Subjects were asked to indicate the point at which they were able to detect the clothing in four different work zone situations. The study concluded that the fluorescent red-orange vest was the most conspicuous. The study did note that motorists may have become accustomed to seeing workers in orange vests and, therefore, associated an orange object with safety clothing.

The study recommended that agencies seeking an alternative to fluorescent red-orange vests should consider fluorescent yellow-green vests. This color appears to work well in work zones, and other research has identified it as performing well in low light and hazy conditions.

[Other studies noted that orange blended in with construction vehicles, barrels, cones and signs, and stated that yellow-green was better because of better contrast with all the surrounding orange.]
----------------
From another study: Small areas of fluorescent material have relatively little value.  Motion, however, augments the effect; bright colors worn on arms or legs or even the head may allow smaller areas to impart some measure of conspicuity.
-----------------------
And since we're talking ground teams and crashed pilots out in the woods, this is from a report on flagging (not clothing) by the US Forest Service.

The 16 most widely used colors and styles of flagging ribbon available were evaluated in deciduous and conifer forests in low light and bright light. Participants in the evaluations included individuals who were able to see the full color spectrum as well as individuals who were severely colorblind. Color blindness affects about 10 percent of the population.

Our field evaluations indicated that hot-pink flagging was the easiest color to see and was visible at the greatest distance. Lime-green flagging showed up poorly to participants with normal color vision, but colorblind participants saw the lime-green flagging best.

The other colors most visible to participants with normal color vision were oranges, blues, and candy striped, in that order.

[These results conflict with the Minnesota tests, but perhaps the reason hot-pink showed up best was that it had the best contrast against the forest.  Or it may be that the Minnesota viewers were repulsed by someone in a hot-pink jumpsuit.]
------------------------
All the studies stated that reflective bands on the arms and legs, in addition to the torso, were crucial to night-time recognition.  Movement was also very beneficial.

If I were looking at night, I'd probably figure out someway to affix a Firefly to my headgear. Blowing a whistle every now and then would probably not be a bad idea either.

And your team mates will kill you for using something as bright as a Firefly.  However, wearing less intense strobes, lightsticks and other low intensity lighting is quite common in ground SAR.

Blowing whistles is a standard SAR technique (sound sweeps).  To keep other teams from being confused by constant whistle blasts (was that another team or the subject blowing the whistle) base will often coordinate the whistle blasts.  Vehicles using PAs or sirens also works.  One problem is that when the sound is constantly coming from different directions, the subject can get confused as to which direction is the help.

Mike