OK have ORANGE uniforms been seriously proposed for ES?

[floridacyclist]

I could see this being a a valid safety issue if we were losing GTs left and right...but we're not, so I'm not sure what the point is. Of course, we could always look for potential safety issues and try to solve them before they become an issue, but in this contect (where we've been doing on-the-job research for years) I don't think it's a problem. What's next? Tinfoil helmets?

Just put an orange ballcap on.

Incidentally, most orange vests I see are not really flourescent nor do they have reflective tape on them; they would look pretty blended in in fall foliage in some areas. My suggestion is to make sure you have an actual construction worker's vest, big enough to fit OVER your web gear (get one big enough for a King Kong beer gut) and top it with an orange hat.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Oh... My... Gawd!

There are two kinds of aircrews: 

Those that can see and those that can't.

I have been standing out with my GT wearing orange vests, with a bright-white (clean, even) van next to us in a parking lot no where NEAR a tree, and a crew flying at 800-1000 feet over the CLOSED store and they STILL couldn't see us, even though we were the ONLY people in the parking lot!

I have also been in the woods, and the swamp, in all four seasons, in two states (Ohio and Florida) and I have had crews spot us before we had visual on the aircraft throught the tree canopy.

In all cases we wore camo uniforms and orange vests. 

IT DOES NOT MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE! 

With some flight crews I could wear enough neon to make the Las Vegas strip look dull, and they would not see us.  With others, they can see us if all we had were orange watchbands.

The uniform of the United States Air Force is BDU camo at this time.  That's what I wear.  I will wear ABU when it is authorized for CAP.  We are on an Air Force mission, and we are the auxiliary of the United States Air Force.  We wear Air Force uniforms.  Case closed.

[SARPilotNY]

Hey...I'm not the one that started this subject...but...
If we found everything all the time we wouldn't have POD.
I say listen to California, the have authorized orange shirts for ground teams as well as Colorado and a few more.  Seems like California does more SAR than most wings...what do they know that we don't?  Maybe the reason they don't kill their folks is because they are visable.  Back to uniform(s)  sooo many to choose from, not so uniform.  I bet if you took the AF style uniform away, got rid of the rank, and medals, we would lose half our members...its all about the fashion show.  I ask the experts again that seem to see everything so well from the air, how many hours do you have in grid, how many finds (not ELTs) do you have?
BTW, I do wear USAF BDUs, fit in them and look good.

[Hawk200]

Maybe the reason they don't kill their folks is because they are visable.  Back to uniform(s)  sooo many to choose from, not so uniform. 

Show me a legitimate trend in losing Ground crews and I might buy it. I doubt you can. Otherwise, it's just false statistics that you've created. Civil Air Patrol is better at SAR than many other agencies. Maybe that's why we don't lose people like other agencies do.

I've been a member of California wing, and most people didn't wear that wing's orange shirt uniform. Biggest reason was that it was only authorized for wear on the mission. Couldn't wear it at your home unit. Most people didn't want to buy something that they couldn't wear to a meeting, too. Besides, have you ever worked with a California Ground Team in those uniforms? I doubt it, but I bet you'll make the claim to inflate your own "expertise".

As for the fashion, a lot of cadets get into the military aspect. Many want the experience of learning about the military. You sugest half would quit without the Air Force trappings. A large majority of that half would be cadets. You will take away their biggest interest in the program.

ES is not the only mission of CAP. And if it ever happened that that is all CAP did, it will fade away rather quickly. It wouldn't take much for other teams to build their experience and get better at it, especially if they didn't have any fallbacks.

Additionally, diminishing the experience of others here doesn't help your case. Put some facts up, a few links to legitimate studies. Declaring your boundless experience over others only serves to encourage them to ignore you.

[SARPilotNY]

As a matter of fact I have worked with California Wing ground teams.  Would you like me to send you their names ?   One of the reasons CAP is not seen as an equal with other Sheriff's teams is because were not.  Our teams have Cadets, theirs don't.  Our teams wear uniforms that set us aside, not bring us together.
Being from California, is it true that just a few people in your Wing run something like 90% of the missions?  Are you one of those or just a talker?
So why does California Wing authorize an orange shirt...just tp make a few people in the Wing feel like the other SAR folks or is it to be seen?  What do they know that most others in CAP not know?

[Hawk200]

As a matter of fact I have worked with California Wing ground teams.  Would you like me to send you their names ?   One of the reasons CAP is not seen as an equal with other Sheriff's teams is because were not.  Our teams have Cadets, theirs don't.  Our teams wear uniforms that set us aside, not bring us together.
Being from California, is it true that just a few people in your Wing run something like 90% of the missions?  Are you one of those or just a talker?

I don't get it. Rather than join one of these premiere SAR teams you would rather insult, diminish, belittle and make every attempt to change Civil Air Patrol. You want CAP ES  to be clones of other organizations. Why? If you don't think CAP is getting the job done, then join one of those other teams. CAP is an organization, not your personal SAR crew.

So why does California Wing authorize an orange shirt...just tp make a few people in the Wing feel like the other SAR folks or is it to be seen?

They may authorize it, but it wasn't worn worn regularly. I saw people during quake relief wearing that outfit. Did they really need to be seen all that much? Would seem it's a case of personal recognition (ie."I've got something you don't!"), not a case of safety.

A "few" people run 90% of the missions? With the size of California, that couldn't be true based on simple logic.

I'm seeing that it's pointless to argue. Your "30+ years" seems to be the trump to every question posed to you. If ten other people came in here with similar experience, I would give the concept serious thought. All I see is you. Considering some of your past suggestions, I remain skeptical that yours is the be-all, end-all option for ES.

[SARPilotNY]

I will base some of my logic on fact.  I called upon an old friend that I have worked with professionally in the past, your new Wing Commanded.  He forwarded me some stats from your Wing newsletter... 7 ICs ran 79 % of all the missions in CA WG last year.
2 ICs ran 136 mission and they are from Southern California
California ran 321 missions
If you were to break CA into 3 regions, that would be 107 missions per region.
I know it's fuzzy math but, where CAWG has 48 ICs, what are the other 41 doing...all talk or show?
I understand one of the guys went on over 150 missions...does he wear orange?  I would think he is an expert to ask.  I also understand he has a full time job too!

I also am a member of a Sheriff's search team,  a USAR team, as well as a national incident command team.  If I were a safety officer at an earthquake incident and saw none "LE" people doing SAR in BDU's w/o safety vests, they would be sent home.  That simple!  I don't think our people have a real understanding of how dangerous a "hot zone" is after an earthquake.  CAP should not be there!

I had the opportunity and pleasure to work with several CAWG members during a joint SAR exercise and a missing airplane mission.  I will give you the names of the outstanding volunteers from CAP that I was able to work with.
Ostrat  Joyce  Charpentier  Keilholtz  Whaley
Do any of these people wear orange?...yes they did!

I watched CAP teams in green vs orange as well as the Federal and sheriff's teams in orange,  hands down orange wins!

I don't know your name, so tell me, were you one of the 7 ICs or any of the 5 above?

Are any of the 5 above experts or less qualified than you? 

Also why is CAWG turning back missions due to a lack of resources?

That wouldn't be in my definition of "primeire team"...sounds like the folks in CAWG need a reality check. 

Those are my facts...True or Not true?

BTW, how many of the 321 missions did you participate on?

[SARMedTech]

I will base some of my logic on fact.  I called upon an old friend that I have worked with professionally in the past, your new Wing Commanded.  He forwarded me some stats from your Wing newsletter... 7 ICs ran 79 % of all the missions in CA WG last year.
2 ICs ran 136 mission and they are from Southern California
California ran 321 missions
If you were to break CA into 3 regions, that would be 107 missions per region.
I know it's fuzzy math but, where CAWG has 48 ICs, what are the other 41 doing...all talk or show?
I understand one of the guys went on over 150 missions...does he wear orange?  I would think he is an expert to ask.  I also understand he has a full time job too!

I also am a member of a Sheriff's search team,  a USAR team, as well as a national incident command team.  If I were a safety officer at an earthquake incident and saw none "LE" people doing SAR in BDU's w/o safety vests, they would be sent home.  That simple!  I don't think our people have a real understanding of how dangerous a "hot zone" is after an earthquake.  CAP should not be there!

I had the opportunity and pleasure to work with several CAWG members during a joint SAR exercise and a missing airplane mission.  I will give you the names of the outstanding volunteers from CAP that I was able to work with.
Ostrat  Joyce  Charpentier  Keilholtz  Whaley
Do any of these people wear orange?...yes they did!

I watched CAP teams in green vs orange as well as the Federal and sheriff's teams in orange,  hands down orange wins!

I don't know your name, so tell me, were you one of the 7 ICs or any of the 5 above?

Are any of the 5 above experts or less qualified than you? 

Also why is CAWG turning back missions due to a lack of resources?

That wouldn't be in my definition of "primeire team"...sounds like the folks in CAWG need a reality check. 

Those are my facts...True or Not true?

BTW, how many of the 321 missions did you participate on?

Fact is, nothing your saying is based fact, or better yet, proven, documented statistics. Only anecdotal, BTDT mumbo jumbo. The fact is that we serve at the pleasure of the USAF and the other organizations who task us, not a grumpy, seemingly bitter pilot who apparently couldnt see a ground team if he were standing right on top them. Fly your plane, take your lead from other mission pilots, perhaps be still for a bit and learn a few new tricks after 30 years. Besides if youre a pilot, how often do you were BDUs and "look good in them?" Arent you afraid your flight crew wont be able to see you over there in the left seat?

[Capt M. Sherrod]

Where's that padlock when you need it?