Why are there such egregious uniform violations...if indeed there are?

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Agreed, I have always had good if not great experiences working with AF units in CAP, but that is not what I am referring to when I speak of USAF. I mean the top echelons, they are where we have the disconnect, and that is what needs to be fixed. It seems to me that really no actual attention gets paid to CAP by top USAF, the decision makers, except when it comes to budget, we get input and guidance by CAP-USAF, but it seems that is where it stops.

Uniforms are the least of the concern here, it seems like to me, that we exist, and that is enough for them, not much is really done to further our name or usefulness. Don't get me wrong, we get good equipment... It is difficult for some reason to explain what I see as the deficiency.

But I do see a deficiency, and it seems like it takes us to fill in the gap between CAP and the top of the USAF. I don't know what made things go the way they have, but we used to be closer knit than we are now.

[abdsp51]

Here's a question which level of AF is the concern AETC CC, Air University CC, CSAF, SECAF who?  I know when I was a cadet there was just CAP not corporate CAP and the USAF Aux.  The top leaders for AF have a lot on their plates, with the multiple spectrums they are looking at.  I still think that if we want an improved relationship we have to work towards it, and that we as the organization should those first steps if they have not been taken already to improve it.

[FW]

Here's a question which level of AF is the concern AETC CC, Air University CC, CSAF, SECAF who?  I know when I was a cadet there was just CAP not corporate CAP and the USAF Aux.  The top leaders for AF have a lot on their plates, with the multiple spectrums they are looking at.  I still think that if we want an improved relationship we have to work towards it, and that we as the organization should those first steps if they have not been taken already to improve it.

A very good question.  The CAP-USAF chain goes thru the Holm Center, AU, AETC, CSAF and SECAF.  However, the BoG is appointed, in part, by the SECAF directly.  Our "funding" comes from congress thru  an OMB grant process controlled by a "grants officer" working in the CAP-USAF office. Now, if you can explain the interactions of all with the leadership of CAP, you may be on to something which "Board Source" spent months to distill and report on...

[lordmonar]

Agreed, I have always had good if not great experiences working with AF units in CAP, but that is not what I am referring to when I speak of USAF. I mean the top echelons, they are where we have the disconnect, and that is what needs to be fixed. It seems to me that really no actual attention gets paid to CAP by top USAF, the decision makers, except when it comes to budget, we get input and guidance by CAP-USAF, but it seems that is where it stops.

Uniforms are the least of the concern here, it seems like to me, that we exist, and that is enough for them, not much is really done to further our name or usefulness. Don't get me wrong, we get good equipment... It is difficult for some reason to explain what I see as the deficiency.

But I do see a deficiency, and it seems like it takes us to fill in the gap between CAP and the top of the USAF. I don't know what made things go the way they have, but we used to be closer knit than we are now.

Well I know that 1st AF and COMACC gets daily beifing on CAP operations and readiness.  Beyond Holmes Center and CAP-USAF they are just too busy doing other things to really worry about CAP.  It is the same thing that I discribed about squadron interaction at a USAF wing level.  Commanders at that level don't have time to worry about USAF units below the wing.....they just don't have the time to give CAP attention....unless it is affecting their budget or their operations.

It is true....that the rank and file USAF personnel hardly know that CAP exisits, let alone what we actually do.  But that is true for just about every other organisation....everyone is mostly worried about how they affect them.

I spent 22 years as a Comm guy....I did not worry about planes...expect when I had to ride on one to get to where I was going to do my job.  Figher squadons worry about Comm when their computers or phones don't work.

IMHO there really is not a problem with the USAF's relationship with us....except at the CAP-USAF level.  And from the CAP-USAF officers that I have interacted with....for the most part....what they don't get is the amount of politics and how long it takes CAP to affect changed once it has been pointed out.

I am hopeful that a lot of that will change with the BoG's governance changes.

[PA Guy]

I have been in CAP a long time.  My first uniform was shade 1 khaki, not 505 or 1505 but cotton khaki.  While some on here have waxed poetic about how cosy we used to be with the AF that has never been my experience.  Sure in the 60s-90s we got more direct support but that was simply due to the availability of resources.  We often got airlift because there were many AFR and ANG units still flying C-119s, C-123s and C-124s etc that were starved for missions.  There were still a lot of bases with WW II barracks.  There were a whole lot more AF bases in general.  People need to take a look at how many AF bases their state's have lost in the last 40 yrs.  Remember when all most all Corp. vehicles were POS that were worn out when we got them from DRMO?  Or how about the worn out Corp aircraft like the L-16, L-5, O-1 and T-34s?

This isn't all a matter of the AF not loving us anymore.  The AF has been in a shooting war for 10 yrs!! They are doing it with fewer aircraft, personnel, bases and money.  They are over extended in almost every area of their ops.  Could it be that they have more important things on their mind other than CAP and what color epaulets we wear?  We have never been the Air Force's best buddy but if they could give us something that didn't cost them anything they did.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I know when I was a cadet there was just CAP not corporate CAP and the USAF Aux.

And that, in a nutshell, is the problem.

We have developed this schizoid nature.

Corporate CAP, Inc. v. USAF Auxiliary.

AUX ON/AUX OFF.  No more "USAF AUX" on our airplanes, as opposed to this L-16 which even says "U.S. Air Force" on the empennage!



Of course, probably the most visible manifestation of this schizoid nature is...you guessed it...UNIFORMS!

I wonder what some of these types who say "you want to look like the Air Force, join the Air Force" would have said when we did look like the Air Force and there weren't any "corporate" uniform options, back in the day before CAP discovered its love affair with grey?

[lordmonar]

Who has developed this schizoid problem?

Not in my wing, not in my unit.  We are always CAP and we are always the USAF auxillary.

We may not always be covered by USAF insurance......but that does not change the way we do buisness. 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Regardless of which we are under, USAF Aux, or corporate, we should carry ourselves in the same manner as we always have. Personally I can't stand the fact that we have an Aux on Aux off switch, but we have to deal with what we have.

Maybe, just maybe since we can, we should market ourselves as the USAF Aux, and not a private corporation, and the idea of us being a private organization will fall by the wayside, even though we have private organization entities. Our governance can stay the same, it works. Conduct ourselves with the pride and discipline of the USAF personnel that we strive to be family with, and the gray eppaulets will be a thing of the past, and the berry board era will not even be a memory but in a history book.

I remember in high school when we were studying WWII, CAP came in to the history lesson about Civil Defense, and I was able to give a decent little blurb in class about it. But, that sort of significance will likely never come again in CAP, because these are different times with different values. Even though that is likely true, we should still conduct ourselves as if the day will come again soon of the public posters and utter necessity of the CAP. Quit calling ourselves just volunteers. But instead instill in the public and USAF an image of ourselves as unpaid professionals.

The difference in a volunteer and an unpaid professional is HUGE.

A volunteer is largely an amateur that is ok at what they do, but isn't good enough to be paid for it. Thy give of their time to help the mission, but are largely a warm body for the count.

An unpaid professional is someone who is good at what thy do, they show up looking good and prepared for the mission. Thy are not simply a warm body, and they do not just add to the count. They bring their expertise and heir determination and they accomPlish the mission because hey know it is up to them. But they don't do it to be paid, they don't do it for accolades, they do it because they desire to further the cause, they do it because they know they can, and have trained hard. They do it because quite simply they love their community and they are patriots.

An amateur is someone who trains until they get it right, but a professional trains until hey can't get it wrong. One of you told me that, and I have started brining that into every aspect that I can with the cadets.

Let's be unpaid professionals, not volunteers. Let us make the difference in what the USAF sees in the Civil Air Patrol, their USAf Auxiliary. The ones who further their missions in the community. The future of the United States of America. Because that is what we do. We are not a breeding ground for soldiers and Airmen, but a good portion of cadets do move forward in life to be Soldiers and Airmen. But every one of them comes out of the cadet program expected to be stronger of body and mind and to have a patriotic presence in the world. Some move on to be CEOs, some Congrssmen, some senators, but all are expected to be productive members of society. And yes, I do believe this takes a military structure to accomplish. That is what did it for me, and I see that same thing doing it for the cadets I lead, I do lead with a military mindset, not a drill sergeant, but a military instructor. I do not lead with a hard hand, but a firm belief that they can take another step forward each and every day. And we as senior members should be able to do the same.

If we are to improve the image of the CAP, then we must all take te first step. And by mentioning the color of our epaulets, no id not really mean the color of our epaulets. I use that as a reference to how the USAF sees us. It was a great image with blue, it was a POOR image with maroon, but it is a better image with gray. But let's make it a blue image again.

[Mama K.]

@All:  Whenever I notice some one not wearing the CAP uniform properly -- Due to weight, lack of attention to detail, etc. -- it is irritating. If all seniors cannot properly dress themselves, it is an awful lot to expect of the cadets. Luckily, I think most seniors care enough to try and abide by regs. CAP is a wonderful organization so I hope Command will continue to demand that all members abide by the given standards while understanding that not all have the same level of disposable income regarding uniform changes. Just my 2 cents...         

[RADIOMAN015]

@All:  Whenever I notice some one not wearing the CAP uniform properly -- Due to weight, lack of attention to detail, etc. -- it is irritating. If all seniors cannot properly dress themselves, it is an awful lot to expect of the cadets. Luckily, I think most seniors care enough to try and abide by regs. CAP is a wonderful organization so I hope Command will continue to demand that all members abide by the given standards while understanding that not all have the same level of disposable income regarding uniform changes. Just my 2 cents...         

I have seen members wearing the golf shirt combination incorrectly (try this one a member wearing his grey CAP name tag on the blue golf shirt)  I have just about surrendered on trying to fix this except as the PAO when the media is around :angel:.   Sometimes even with the TV news media, they will do the interview with the person I've selected (great uniform and grooming) and than decide to do some pan shots of the entire activity and that can sometimes be risky

BTW, I don't even think any of these uniform issues are done purposely, it's just that the members has so much going on in their lives that they make errors/forget to do things
RM
   

         

[AirDX]

A volunteer is largely an amateur that is ok at what they do, but isn't good enough to be paid for it.

Oh BS.  There were lots of people assisted and whose property was saved when I was on a couple of different VOLUNTEER fire departments - trained and certified to the exact same standards as our paid bretheren, and frequently as classmates.

I am a volunteer shelter manager for the American Red Cross.  I am not a loser who can't quite get a job as a shelter manager.  There just isn't a call to have folks on the payroll to do that, the need is too infrequent.  So we train, and stand by.  Sort of like CAP - train, and stand by.  Be ready to do our jobs.  Professionally.

So... no. 

[abdsp51]

Violations can be deterred with mentor-ship and reading the dang manual and having some integrity.  We have worn grey since the mid 90's and is much better than the berry boards.  During SLS I can not count how many uniform violations I saw among my class.  We have the AF style uniforms and the corp I guess you can call it.  I prefer the USAF style over the rest but have had to resort to the golf shirt combo on a couple of occasions.  One way to clear up any and most violations is educate the membership and have an updated uniform manual that is clear and concise. 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

A volunteer is largely an amateur that is ok at what they do, but isn't good enough to be paid for it.

Oh BS.  There were lots of people assisted and whose property was saved when I was on a couple of different VOLUNTEER fire departments - trained and certified to the exact same standards as our paid bretheren, and frequently as classmates.

I am a volunteer shelter manager for the American Red Cross.  I am not a loser who can't quite get a job as a shelter manager.  There just isn't a call to have folks on the payroll to do that, the need is too infrequent.  So we train, and stand by.  Sort of like CAP - train, and stand by.  Be ready to do our jobs.  Professionally.

So... no.

Ok, maybe it wasn't clear, these are my thoughts. To me, a "volunteer" sheriff isn't a volunteer if they know what they are doing and thy are professional, they are an unpaid sheriff, a "volunteer" fireman isn't a volunteer, they are an unpaid professional.

A true volunteer is someone who shows up because they saw an add in the newspaper saying they need volunteers for an event happening this Saturday, and thy show up in flip flops and shorts. That is a volunteer, a professional is someone who trains for what they do. An unpaid professional is someone who trains for what they do, but doesn't get paid for it. So, no, not BS.

I am not simply a volunteer, I train for what I do, I wear a uniform for what I do, I don't show up for and advertisement wearing shorts. I come for a mission I am called to, trained and in uniform. As a fireman, you are trained and in uniform, you are an unpaid professional. It may be called a volunteer fire department, but it is occupied by professionals.

[Eclipse]

I agree with this ^, but for the record it's basically 180 off from your last message.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I agree with this ^, but for the record it's basically 180 off from your last message.

I don't understand how. But maybe I didn't get it out right the first time.

[ZigZag911]

Leadership needs to set a good example.

Unfortunately I still see occasional photos of wing/region staff personnel wearing USAF uniform who shouldn't.

The rules apply to all, equally...when we enforce that ourselves, things will improve.

[abdsp51]

Leadership needs to set a good example.

Unfortunately I still see occasional photos of wing/region staff personnel wearing USAF uniform who shouldn't.

The rules apply to all, equally...when we enforce that ourselves, things will improve.

+1