Why are there such egregious uniform violations...if indeed there are?

[RiverAux]

By my earlier comments I didn't mean to imply that CAP wasn't rife with uniform violations.  It is and the reason they continue is that compliance with uniform regulations is not something that has apparently ever been a priority in CAP.  Much as I think "safety" is over-hyped, it is a much more important issue than the uniform and at least in regards to these two issues, the priority has been placed on the right one. 

Basically, without a constant and high profile emphasis on an issue, its going to be very hard to get volunteers to take it seriously.  Actually, it wouldn't be that hard to start getting the message out to members and provide leaders at all levels the moral support to enforce the regulations.  Just start putting some sort of short article taking on a particularly problematic and common uniform violation in the Volunteer every few months.  Even a small, quarter-page blurb would probably be enough. 

[ßτε]

Pi:  3.14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510
58209749445923078164062862089986280348253421170679
   82148086513282306647093844609550582231725359408128
   48111745028410270193852110555964462294895493038196
   44288109756659334461284756482337867831652712019091
   45648566923460348610454326648213393607260249141273
   72458700660631558817488152092096282925409171536436
   78925903600113305305488204665213841469519415116094
   33057270365759591953092186117381932611793105118548
   07446237996274956735188575272489122793818301194912
   98336733624406566430860213949463952247371907021798
   60943702770539217176293176752384674818467669405132
   00056812714526356082778577134275778960917363717872
   14684409012249534301465495853710507922796892589235
   42019956112129021960864034418159813629774771309960
   51870721134999999837297804995105973173281609631859
   50244594553469083026425223082533446850352619311881
   71010003137838752886587533208381420617177669147303
   59825349042875546873115956286388235378759375195778
   18577805321712268066130019278766111959092164201989

Someone calcuated Pi out to the 10 trillionth place. So don't say it is impossible to calculate Pi. And the gordian knot was untied. The two variations either have alexander cut it, and the other he unties it.

I hate to tell you this, but that is NOT π (pi). You obviously missed the point. No matter how many digits of pi you calculate it, you are still never going to calculate all the digits.

[lordmonar]

...the fixes could be quick and simple.

You were making so much sense in your posts, why do you have to screw-up now?

"Quick and simple fixes" with the subject being CAP uniforms?

One might as well try to untie a Gordian Knot or calculate the value of Pi.

The "fix" is simple in concept......just not implementation.

The "FIX" is to teach our members how to wear the varioius uniform combos properly......and then make sure that they in fact do wear it properly.

It has to be implemented at all levels.....fairly and consistantly.  We need to police our peers, our subordinates and challeng our superiors......all the time....consistantly.

I have seen wing level guys get all bent about someone wearing subdued rank on their green flight suit....to the point where they cut off the rank there at the mission base.....with the excuse that the USAF will be angery.....this same individual was 50lbs over weight with a moustach way out of regs. 

Then the following week a region commander got his picture in the paper with subdued rank on his flight suit.

It does not take a lot of that before people stop caring about policing the ranks.

YMMV

[JeffDG]

Pi:  3.14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510
58209749445923078164062862089986280348253421170679
   82148086513282306647093844609550582231725359408128
   48111745028410270193852110555964462294895493038196
   44288109756659334461284756482337867831652712019091
   45648566923460348610454326648213393607260249141273
   72458700660631558817488152092096282925409171536436
   78925903600113305305488204665213841469519415116094
   33057270365759591953092186117381932611793105118548
   07446237996274956735188575272489122793818301194912
   98336733624406566430860213949463952247371907021798
   60943702770539217176293176752384674818467669405132
   00056812714526356082778577134275778960917363717872
   14684409012249534301465495853710507922796892589235
   42019956112129021960864034418159813629774771309960
   51870721134999999837297804995105973173281609631859
   50244594553469083026425223082533446850352619311881
   71010003137838752886587533208381420617177669147303
   59825349042875546873115956286388235378759375195778
   18577805321712268066130019278766111959092164201989

Someone calcuated Pi out to the 10 trillionth place. So don't say it is impossible to calculate Pi. And the gordian knot was untied. The two variations either have alexander cut it, and the other he unties it.

I hate to tell you this, but that is NOT π (pi). You obviously missed the point. No matter how many digits of pi you calculate it, you are still never going to calculate all the digits.

The best you can calculate of pi is an approximation, even if you go to the 10 trillionth decimal place, it's still an approximation.  e is another example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendental_number

[FW]

^The "fix" is not just in education and enforcement.  It is also the (re)establishment of pride in its wear.
Getting members to be proud to wear our uniform is the harder goal.  It takes instilling a sense of pride in the organization, pride in our fellow members and, pride in our leaders.  In this current environment, I don't know if "implimentation" is even possible...

[NCRblues]

Then the following week a region commander got his picture in the paper with subdued rank on his flight suit.

It does not take a lot of that before people stop caring about policing the ranks.

YMMV

Bingo! That is the key! The changes we need to fix our uniform problem will never go away when we have members placed into positions of authority violating the regulations.

A very wise old wing commander once told me that "if you break the rules for one, the rest will want the same in return".

Enforce the standards at the top level, the lower levels will (eventually) fall into line.

(Plus edit the pictures we put on the news section of cap-members.com. We are not doing ourselves any favors by putting pictures up of wing patches on dress blues, GT badges above wings ribbons out of order or missing ext...)

[bflynn]

We need to police our peers, our subordinates and challeng our superiors......all the time....consistantly.

I'm curious - what would you think "policing" others looks like?

[abdsp51]

We need to police our peers, our subordinates and challeng our superiors......all the time....consistantly.

I'm curious - what would you think "policing" others looks like?

Don't read into it.

[lordmonar]

We need to police our peers, our subordinates and challeng our superiors......all the time....consistantly.

I'm curious - what would you think "policing" others looks like?

Simple.....

As a peer....when in your squadron...always help out your fellow squadron members....it is not just the commander's job.
When at group/wing/regional events.......we politely correct those not doing it right.  If they tell you "My commander/flight sergeant/CAPTALK said this was okay" we follow up with the informationn and apply the corrective action where it needs to be.

As a leader......DEMAND of yourself and your subordinates compliance with the standard.  Don't look for loop holes, keep the exceptions to policy to an absolute minimun.  Make sure you are going through the proper paperwork drill (i.e. publish the sup to 39-1 at the appropriate level).  TEACH you subordinate how to read the regs!

As a subordinate....when your leaders violate the uniform regs....challenge them....respectfully.    Help them out.....they may in fact not know the reg.  If they do....and the blow you off.......go up the chain of command. 

This applies to any regulation....not just uniforms.

[arajca]

We need to police our peers, our subordinates and challeng our superiors......all the time....consistantly.

I'm curious - what would you think "policing" others looks like?

Simple.....

As a peer....when in your squadron...always help out your fellow squadron members....it is not just the commander's job.
When at group/wing/regional events.......we politely correct those not doing it right.  If they tell you "My commander/flight sergeant/CAPTALK said this was okay" we follow up with the informationn and apply the corrective action where it needs to be.

As a leader......DEMAND of yourself and your subordinates compliance with the standard.  Don't look for loop holes, keep the exceptions to policy to an absolute minimun.  Make sure you are going through the proper paperwork drill (i.e. publish the sup to 39-1 at the appropriate level).  TEACH you subordinate how to read the regs!

As a subordinate....when your leaders violate the uniform regs....challenge them....respectfully.    Help them out.....they may in fact not know the reg.  If they do....and the blow you off.......go up the chain of command. 

This applies to any regulation....not just uniforms.

Additionally, be POLITE and RESPECTFUL when doing so.

[sarmed1]

"....leather jacket, boonie hat, beret....."
From an  AF guy perspective its not these sort of things per say that the average (or even moderately informed) USAF member sees on a CAP member and says WTF?!  Basically because they are common USAF items (read in authorized) and more or less seen frequently enough when worn in their proper time and place; and if seen worn by CAP members in the same "proper"places, they dont look inappropriate to the USAF.

Its when items are worn inapropriately or in ways they contradict USAF uniform practices (even if 39-1 approved) or failures to look appropraite in USAF uniform (ie height/weight type standards, or apprpraite C&C).  In fact most AF folks that dont know much about CAP think that some of the "CAP specific" differances look as silly to them as most CAP folks (Grey slides on blues, colored patches on BDU's etc, etc)

mk

[lordmonar]

We need to police our peers, our subordinates and challeng our superiors......all the time....consistantly.

I'm curious - what would you think "policing" others looks like?

Simple.....

As a peer....when in your squadron...always help out your fellow squadron members....it is not just the commander's job.
When at group/wing/regional events.......we politely correct those not doing it right.  If they tell you "My commander/flight sergeant/CAPTALK said this was okay" we follow up with the informationn and apply the corrective action where it needs to be.

As a leader......DEMAND of yourself and your subordinates compliance with the standard.  Don't look for loop holes, keep the exceptions to policy to an absolute minimun.  Make sure you are going through the proper paperwork drill (i.e. publish the sup to 39-1 at the appropriate level).  TEACH you subordinate how to read the regs!

As a subordinate....when your leaders violate the uniform regs....challenge them....respectfully.    Help them out.....they may in fact not know the reg.  If they do....and the blow you off.......go up the chain of command. 

This applies to any regulation....not just uniforms.

Additionally, be POLITE and RESPECTFUL when doing so.

ALWAYS......Even when you are 100% right and 100% Justified......being a 4th point of contact will not get you or your message very far.

[Private Investigator]

My input on uniform violations. Some people never see them because they are in a sharp Squadron. Others are in units that is so sloppy they really do not notice themselves.

I visit a lot of Squadrons, officially and unofficially so I notice a big difference between the best and worst. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

In fact most AF folks that dont know much about CAP think that some of the "CAP specific" differances look as silly to them as most CAP folks (Grey slides on blues, colored patches on BDU's etc, etc)

:clap: :clap: :clap:

I have gotten that a few times myself, back in the waning days of The Golden Age Of CAP.

I was sitting in a base Burger King on a drill weekend and some Air Force Reserve NCO's struck up a conversation with me.

At the time we had the even-more-hideous berry boards.

One NCO asked me what was with the shoulder boards..."I thought you guys wore blue ones like we do, but with 'CAP' on them."  I told him "we used to, but the Air Force took them away from us."  He shook his head and said that if we were part of the Air Force (I didn't get into splitting hairs about what "part of" meant and this was long before the terrible days of "AUX ON/AUX OFF") that we should look like the Air Force, "especially since you guys do what you do, don't get paid and don't get retirement points."

I wish I could have that quote on a certificate, framed, signed and used as part of my signature line.

[Major Carrales]

As I have said before, the crux of this problem lies in the "squadron culture."  There is no "standard" CAP squadron culture.  Thus, isolated units tend to develop "extra-regulation" uniform practices, unit near military installations take on some of the practices of the base they are next to (like wearing the army style ribbon rack...which tends to space out ribbons), culture is too lacks and people don't want to "rock the boat" and sometimes people think they are 19th century military officers wearing customized uniforms.

There may be no real way to standardize the culture...unless you had Wing or CAP-USAF members visiting every meeting across the wing.

At Wing Conferences you can see these issues merge.  People from large Wings sometimes have a "regional" feel, with people from isolated units wearing obsolete items in manner no longer perscribed by the current regulations. 

And it's not just USAF style where issues exist.  Golf shirts get worn untucked and wrinkled because they were wadded up in the back seat since last week (a common justification for wearing that uniform is that it is so handy)  People wearing sandles with white/grays, or militay ribbons.  BBDUs with subdued badges (which I do know know if is allowed or not.

Again, squadron culture.

[Eclipse]

One field uniform with nothing but operational badges and a unit patch.

One dress uniform, period.

One flight suit.

Done.

There would be a wailing and gnashing of teeth, and then in a year we'd forget we ever had a problem.

[Major Carrales]

One field uniform with nothing but operational badges and a unit patch.

One dress uniform, period.

One flight suit.

Done.

There would be a wailing and gnashing of teeth, and then in a year we'd forget we ever had a problem.

A case could be made that an attempt to be as "inclusive" as possible has resulted in an array of chaos when it comes to uniforms.  It is one thing to have specialized uniform items for special purposes, however having so many uniforms for the reasons we do is inefficient.

It agree with your assessment.  But to have a sort of "one uniform" policy we would need to go the other way.  A uniform that is truly inclusive that everyone could wear. 

This is an issue I should point out, that each solution presents another problem which cannot be solved with out creating other problems.  Furthermore, the solutions that would work tends to create a situation where people are insulted.

We cannot win this with it's Catch-22 style issues.

[Eclipse]

Yes, that was the point, all inclusive.

Everyone involved needs to get over themselves, make some decisions and move on.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

One field uniform with nothing but operational badges and a unit patch.

One dress uniform, period.

One flight suit.

Done.

There would be a wailing and gnashing of teeth, and then in a year we'd forget we ever had a problem.

Am I in rare agreement with Eclipse?

Well, sort of. We have too many uniforms. The Air Force uniforms, we keep. The CAP-corporate uniforms, we whittle down to a comprehensible number. But heck, I'd be happy if we just allowed the specialty-track shields in only one position on the blues, and disallow the ES patch on any flight suit (it looks goofy, pun not intended, and bush-league worn on the FDU).

So, to recap: The Air Force uniforms. Then one set of uniforms for fat-fuzzy-lazy members. That's all. Think it's workable?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

One field uniform with nothing but operational badges and a unit patch.

One dress uniform, period.

One flight suit.

Done.

There would be a wailing and gnashing of teeth, and then in a year we'd forget we ever had a problem.

And some (NOT ME) would say we already have that.

One field uniform - BBDU.

One dress uniform, period - aviator combo/blazer.

One flight suit - blue utility suit or golf shirt and whatever trousers you decide to wear.

If we go down that road, and I pray we don't, because I can see the anti-military corporatists really pushing that as an "already-existing setup that won't tick the AF off, that would be (drumroll) distinctive, cheap and weed out the play-military types."

Then we would have even more aggro on our hands.  I know I am not the only one who dislikes the G/W but occasionally grudgingly wears it and who loathes the blazer setup.