What about this jacket?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

OK, then...

I've read 39-1 with its many contradictions.

Would this jacket be acceptable as a blue CAP flight jacket to wear with the blue utility suit and the G/W?  Note: NOT with any AF uniform combo!




Yes, it is an old AF Security Police jacket, but it is almost identical in colour and cut to a CWU-45.

Please...no overparsing of 39-1 to "how many angels can stand on the head of a pin" extent...I do that myself and it gives me a headache.

[SarDragon]

I'd probably wear it, if I had one. But then, I'm not the foremost authority on "proper" uniform. I use too much common sense for some folks' tastes.

[Short Field]

it is almost identical in colour and cut to a CWU-45.

Seems like you have the answer.  If I am 5' tall and 400 lbs, can I hire someone to hand tailor a set of blues that are almost identical in colour and cut to the USAF Style Blues and wear them to meetings?  It would be the same as wearing civilian clothes... right?

[MIKE]

The CWU-45 etc is not authorized with the blue bags (if worn with insignia.)  The MA-1 is the only blue flight jacket authorized by CAPM 39-1.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The CWU-45 etc is not authorized with the blue bags (if worn with insignia.)  The MA-1 is the only blue flight jacket authorized by CAPM 39-1.

Are you sure about that, Mike?  The MA-1 is what is in the pictures, but it's not specified in the manual.

[MIKE]

Because The CWU-45 and the MA-1 is specifically authorized for the green bag.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Because The CWU-45 and the MA-1 is specifically authorized for the green bag.

That is true.  I just checked 39-1 on that.

However, for the blue set, there is no prescribed type of blue flight jacket.

Ref: Tables 4-5 and 4-6, CAPM 39-1, p. 86

[Ed Bos]

I think you're ok to wear that particular jacket for a couple of reasons:

1) No prescribed outerwear in the Blue FDU, utility coveralls, or other corporate uniform;

2) The current  CWU-45 used by the AF is green;

3) The blue jacket in a similar cut is not an AF uniform item (anymore) ergo it is a civilian outer garment;

4) It would look professional with the Blue FDU and the utility coveralls.

I say go for it.

[MIKE]

However, for the blue set, there is no prescribed type of blue flight jacket.

Ref: Tables 4-5 and 4-6, CAPM 39-1, p. 86

Because only the type depicted is authorized... Says as much in in the cite.  Just replace CAPMart with Vanguard as the only authorized source.  Otherwise wear what you want as long as it's devoid of insignia.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Because only the type depicted is authorized... Says as much in in the cite.  Just replace CAPMart with Vanguard as the only authorized source.  Otherwise wear what you want as long as it's devoid of insignia.

I didn't get the same interpretation of "says as much in the cite" as you, Mike...nor has there been an ICL specifying Vanguard as the only authorised source.  CAPMart was operated by CAP.  VG is not.  It would be like saying that Lighthouse is the only authorised source for CGAUX uniforms.

Also, if that is the case, then the blue flight jacket isn't authorised at all, because Vanguard only stocks the sage green one.



I know a lot of people who are up the creek, then...because there are a lot of people wearing black A-2's (properly), BBDU's and blue utility suits who did not get them from Vanguard, myself included (their utility jumpsuit is kind of a K Mart special quality wise).

If it says "CAP" on it, VG, like it or not, is the only authorised source for new garments/insignia (there's always Evilbay), as The Hock Shop found out.  Otherwise...

Short Field: I am not talking about fabricating an entire new uniform from the word go to imitate the AF blues.

Unfortunately, this has gone a lot farther into parsing than I intended...not that anyone cares, but a new, definitive, cut-and-dried "do wear this, don't wear that" 39-1 is SORELY needed, because there are some Texas-sized holes in the current one.

[arajca]

...not that anyone cares, but a new, definitive, cut-and-dried "do wear this, don't wear that" 39-1 is SORELY needed, because there are some Texas-sized holes in the current one.

And this is news, how exactly?

Despite several offers from the field, National has decided (by a lack of response) that the current CAPM 39-1 system is the most appropriate system to use.

[blackrain]

I prefer a straight black A-2 style without any insignia. If I pay near $300 for a leather jacket I really don't want it cluttered with insignia or the Velcro. On another note I have to ask why the Air Force sees fit to spend taxpayer money in this day and time on leather jackets for their aircrew. Not much in the overall scheme but still wonder why

[SarDragon]

The Canoe Club does the same thing, and I'm sure it's mostly a tradition thing. The leather jacket is cooler when flying in warmer times and areas.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I got my A-2 used for under $100 on Evilbay.

Use some leather adhesive for the hook-and-loops for your MAJCOM shield and brown/black nameplate and you're GTG.

Arajca: Am I correct in interpreting that you're saying we've got to stick it out with a horribly outdated 39-1 and an endless series of ICL's that often contradict each other, not to mention submitted enquiries to National that very often go unanswered?

[PHall]

I've worn my A2 with the liner in temps down to the 20's in Alaska with no problems. Stayed nice and warm.

[blackrain]

Leather Jackets have a few advantages in my book. While not Nomex leather does have a certain amount of inherent fire resistance and at it's not going to melt like nylon. Also a lot of flight jackets are bulkier whether Nomex or Nylon and with some of our "adult sized" flight crews a 182 can get cramped especially with the bulkier jackets. The A-2 style with Thinsulate is not too bulky but as PHALL stated will keep you warm on all but the really really cold days. Finally I feel better about my expensive jacket when I can wear it with regular street clothes and not just for CAP.

[Short Field]

Short Field: I am not talking about fabricating an entire new uniform from the word go to imitate the AF blues.

Sorry, I couldn't tell it was really blue and not the standard sage green for flight jackets in the pictue.  No issues at all if it is blue.  I see people around here wearing brown leather jackets with their whites that look "almost" like the A-2 Leather Jacket.  It doesn't help matters when put the leather CAP name tag on it that goes on the black A-2. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Short Field: No worries, mate.

I haven't seen CAP members wearing the brown leather jacket wrongly when they're not supposed to the way you have.

Without the nameplate, it's just another civilian leather jacket, but when they stick the nameplate/CAP shield on, they're violating regs.

What's the big deal if the A-2 is brown or black?  If the AF says we don't wear brown, black looks just as good and keeps you warm just as well.

[titanII]

What's the big deal if the A-2 is brown or black?  If the AF says we don't wear brown, black looks just as good and keeps you warm just as well.

While black does look just as good, I think the AF said "stay away from brown, CAP" because in my mind the brown A-2 invokes images of the  Air Force, WWII bomber crews, B-17s, etc.
In other words, the brown A-2 is too Air Force for CAP.*

*not my opinion, but what I think the Air Force thinks

[PHall]

Hey, the black jacket just makes us look like Southwest Airlines pilots. And I haven't heard any complaints from them.









Yet...

[blackrain]

What's the big deal if the A-2 is brown or black?  If the AF says we don't wear brown, black looks just as good and keeps you warm just as well.

While black does look just as good, I think the AF said "stay away from brown, CAP" because in my mind the brown A-2 invokes images of the  Air Force, WWII bomber crews, B-17s, etc.
In other words, the brown A-2 is too Air Force for CAP.*

*not my opinion, but what I think the Air Force thinks

Heaven forbid we offend AF aircrews. When they go back to engaging FW-190s from a ball turret then I might feel they have a legit case. Last month I walked past 12 pictures at the reserve center of young troops in OIF/OEF who gave their lives and not one of them was wearing an A-2 at the time they died. Apologies for the rant and nothing against you guys but this touched a nerve.

[titanII]

Heaven forbid we offend AF aircrews. When they go back to engaging FW-190s from a ball turret then I might feel they have a legit case. Last month I walked past 12 pictures at the reserve center of young troops in OIF/OEF who gave their lives and not one of them was wearing an A-2 at the time they died. Apologies for the rant and nothing against you guys but this touched a nerve.

I never said it was right

[blackrain]

Heaven forbid we offend AF aircrews. When they go back to engaging FW-190s from a ball turret then I might feel they have a legit case. Last month I walked past 12 pictures at the reserve center of young troops in OIF/OEF who gave their lives and not one of them was wearing an A-2 at the time they died. Apologies for the rant and nothing against you guys but this touched a nerve.

I never said it was right

Point taken.


Again my apologies

[titanII]

Again my apologies

No worries, we're all on the same team here 

[Short Field]

Heaven forbid we offend AF aircrews. When they go back to engaging FW-190s from a ball turret then I might feel they have a legit case. Last month I walked past 12 pictures at the reserve center of young troops in OIF/OEF who gave their lives and not one of them was wearing an A-2 at the time they died. Apologies for the rant and nothing against you guys but this touched a nerve.

Only flight crews can wear the A2 in the USAF.  It takes a set of orders.  By your logic, we ought to rant against all the servicemen who have died or been wounded but are not allowed to wear the CIB.  What next?  Green Berets?

My original point is that it was NOT A BROWN A2 but a look-alike the member wore with his corporate whties.  It just looked like an brown A2 until you looked closer.

[blackrain]

Heaven forbid we offend AF aircrews. When they go back to engaging FW-190s from a ball turret then I might feel they have a legit case. Last month I walked past 12 pictures at the reserve center of young troops in OIF/OEF who gave their lives and not one of them was wearing an A-2 at the time they died. Apologies for the rant and nothing against you guys but this touched a nerve.

Only flight crews can wear the A2 in the USAF.  It takes a set of orders.  By your logic, we ought to rant against all the servicemen who have died or been wounded but are not allowed to wear the CIB.  What next?  Green Berets?

My original point is that it was NOT A BROWN A2 but a look-alike the member wore with his corporate whties.  It just looked like an brown A2 until you looked closer.

Definitely not trying to throw spears at anyone here.

Aircrew have wings, Infantry has the CIB, Airborne has jump wings, CAB for everyone else etc. They just wear them on the same duty uniform as everyone else in their particular service. I just think it's a little over the top to need an extra type of (expensive) outerwear to distinguish one group from another on a regular duty uniform. The Army recently decided (thankfully) to limit the Beret to the ASU (new dress uniform) and go back to the patrol cap on a day to day basis. Put another way, save any extras other than skill badges for the respective services dress uniforms. IMHO

By the way I took my Mangesil this morning to so I'm all better now

[Eclipse]

What's the big deal if the A-2 is brown or black?  If the AF says we don't wear brown, black looks just as good and keeps you warm just as well.

While black does look just as good, I think the AF said "stay away from brown, CAP" because in my mind the brown A-2 invokes images of the  Air Force, WWII bomber crews, B-17s, etc.
In other words, the brown A-2 is too Air Force for CAP.*

*not my opinion, but what I think the Air Force thinks

Heaven forbid we offend AF aircrews. When they go back to engaging FW-190s from a ball turret then I might feel they have a legit case. Last month I walked past 12 pictures at the reserve center of young troops in OIF/OEF who gave their lives and not one of them was wearing an A-2 at the time they died. Apologies for the rant and nothing against you guys but this touched a nerve.

Just a little tip - these "aircrews" in many cases make up a lot of the cadre of CAP-RAPs and SD's.  You know, the people who administer all of our
resources, approve our missions and related expenses, and audit our wings' ES programs and major cadet activities.  We don't have the cool points or BTDT chops to be offending them just to make a fashion statement.

Leave the brown one at one, and get something else.

[Buzz]

...not that anyone cares, but a new, definitive, cut-and-dried "do wear this, don't wear that" 39-1 is SORELY needed, because there are some Texas-sized holes in the current one.

And this is news, how exactly?

Because the earlier version only had holes the size of New Mexico . . ?

[Buzz]

On another note I have to ask why the Air Force sees fit to spend taxpayer money in this day and time on leather jackets for their aircrew. Not much in the overall scheme but still wonder why

Leather provides the best protection against wind, liquids (especially flammable and solvents) and sharp edges of any fire-protective material.