Blue Van Heusen Aviator Shirt and Accessories

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Please...don't let this thread degenerate into frivolity.

I would like to know how many of you would support a move to change the aviator uniform from a white shirt to a blue Van Heusen civilian aviator shirt.

The colour and cut are different to AF issue.



NO CHANGE to the grey epaulettes or nameplate.

NO CHANGE to the grey trousers, except to standardise on something like this.



Remember, General Courter said in her PowerPoint that CAP needed to standardise on a cut/colour of grey trousers.

Also, a police-style, civilian-made pullover sweater, maybe with our soon-to-be-obsolete CAP brushed-silver nameplate?



I'm not even going to suggest headgear or a dress-type jacket.  This is minimum-change stuff, and I really don't see anything the AF would object to.

If so, I think Ned said uniform topics were going to be considered at summer NB...how to get them on the agenda?  Standard up-the-chain, or what?

I'm being serious here - no flights of fancy ("Star Trek" uniforms, etc.).

[Eclipse]

No - it will never pass the "low light" test purported to be the issue with our uniforms, now.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

No - it will never pass the "low light" test purported to be the issue with our uniforms, now.

That could be said for nearly any uniform, since that "low-light" bit is extremely ambiguous.

The grey trousers would still be there, and there would be no change to the insignia.

Or is anything blue that isn't the AF-type uniform off-limits, and, if so, why, given that we're good with the BBDU's and blue utility/flight suits?

[Eclipse]

I don't disagree, it just is what it is...

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I don't disagree, it just is what it is...

How would we know unless we make such a proposal?

Also, there would be no AF uniform items used, which I think was at least part of the aggro with the CSU.

Or, if not a light blue shirt, what about a dark(er) blue one, similar to the BBDU?

[Major Carrales]

No, I will support no movement to increase the number of uniform is CAP to yet another combination.

[BradM]

Would we use our blue Air Force tie which I already have? I like the blue aviator shirt. I have both the white short sleeve and the long sleeve.

It would be great to have a flight cap the same color as the pants if we get the standardized pants. Same color as the epaulets?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

No, I will support no movement to increase the number of uniform is CAP to yet another combination.

This wouldn't add anything...it would just change the shirt from white to a shade of blue.

BradM, I'm not even getting into headgear, but I would assume the tie would be the same, unless the AF says no.

[BradM]

Or, if not a light blue shirt, what about a dark(er) blue one, similar to the BBDU?

I like this one too. It would look good with the light gray epaulets, light gray name tag, specialty badges, ribbons, and shiney sliver Pilot and Observer wings.

[Major Carrales]

No, I will support no movement to increase the number of uniform is CAP to yet another combination.

This wouldn't add anything...it would just change the shirt from white to a shade of blue.

BradM, I'm not even getting into headgear, but I would assume the tie would be the same, unless the AF says no.

Why?  For what reason?  So that people who already have a white shirt will have to make an additional purchase?

[BradM]

The white shirt gray/slacks combo looks more like a security guard than aviator. (to me at least) I like the lighter blue shirt (pictured above) best for those of us that don't pass the weight or grooming standards.

[Shotgun]

No - it will never pass the "low light" test purported to be the issue with our uniforms, now.

Could someone elucidate the "low light" test in regards to our uniform?

Is this basically the idea of being able to distinguish a CAP uniform from an Air Force uniform in a darkened banquet room?

[Major Carrales]

The white shirt gray/slacks combo looks more like a security guard than aviator. (to me at least) I like the lighter blue shirt (pictured above) best for those of us that don't pass the weight or grooming standards.

I disagree....I've seen security guards in those blue shirts as well.  Here's an idea...why don't we define our uniform via what we do en re the missions and stop letting the uniform define us?

Simply put, a CAP officer in white/greys is not a "Security Guard."  If we allow our actions to display the merit of CAP then we don't have to worry about mistaken identity, we just do our jobs.

I am thinking of obtaining white greys now...to demonstrate the point.

[BradM]

I am thinking of obtaining white greys now...to demonstrate the point.

Thats good I have the long and short white aviator shirts because I have a goatee.

[SarDragon]

I like it. I would prefer a lighter grey color for the trousers, which matches the grade sleeves, since that's what I already have.

[BradM]

I like it. I would prefer a lighter grey color for the trousers, which matches the grade sleeves, since that's what I already have.

I wear both color grays, the darker one like pictured above is my Docker's pants and then I got light colored gray dress slacks from the Men's Wearhouse as well. I wear them on more dressy nights.

[SarDragon]

I like it. I would prefer a lighter grey color for the trousers, which matches the grade sleeves, since that's what I already have.

I wear both color grays, the darker one like pictured above is my Docker's pants and then I got light colored gray dress slacks from the Men's Wearhouse as well. I wear them on more dressy nights.

Oh, I have more than one shade of grey in my closet. I was speaking of standardizing on the color of the grade sleeves. I's dark enough to not show dirt quickly, but still light enough to not be confused with blue.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Why?  For what reason?  So that people who already have a white shirt will have to make an additional purchase?

No, Major.

There could be a "wear-out" date - like the one imposed on the CSU.  If you already own a white shirt, you wear it until the wear-out date, then instead of buying another white one, you buy a blue one.  If you're new to CAP and don't fit H/W/FF regs, you buy grey uniform pants and the blue shirt.

Sir, if you want to buy a G/W combo, that is entirely up to you.  I do not view those who wear that order of dress to be less vital to CAP.  It is unfortunate that is too often inferred.

I accept that the grey is a fact of life in CAP - if nothing else because of the shoulder mark/nameplate colour.

What I am doing is simply throwing out an option to add a bit of colour to a very drab order of dress.

Anyway, General Courter has said that the shade of grey in the trousers needs to be standardised...once that happens, wouldn't that be an "initial purchase?"

[Major Carrales]

Why?  For what reason?  So that people who already have a white shirt will have to make an additional purchase?

No, Major.

There could be a "wear-out" date - like the one imposed on the CSU.  If you already own a white shirt, you wear it until the wear-out date, then instead of buying another white one, you buy a blue one.  If you're new to CAP and don't fit H/W/FF regs, you buy grey uniform pants and the blue shirt.

Sir, if you want to buy a G/W combo, that is entirely up to you.  I do not view those who wear that order of dress to be less vital to CAP.  It is unfortunate that is too often inferred.

I accept that the grey is a fact of life in CAP - if nothing else because of the shoulder mark/nameplate colour.

What I am doing is simply throwing out an option to add a bit of colour to a very drab order of dress.

Anyway, General Courter has said that the shade of grey in the trousers needs to be standardised...once that happens, wouldn't that be an "initial purchase?"

My opinion is that instead of trying to get us a new shirt, that the pants and belt be made standard.  A web belt of the style of the USAF one with buckle is what I would get.  One style and shade of pants.

[SarDragon]

Belts - now we're mixing AF uniform parts with civilian clothes. Before the uni reg defined a specific belt to be worn, folks used to wear the blue web belt with their aviator combination. The AF folks aren't allowed to wear their web belts with civilian clothes, and since our corporate uniforms are classed as such, we can't do it either.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

SarDragon: I think Major Carrales' usage of the word style is important.  I can go to my local Army/Navy and get various shades of blue, green, tan and black web belts - none of which are official issue, though they are in that style.  I personally would support a black web belt with silver buckle.  I can get one of those for under $10 at the Army/Navy.  But also...we are authorised to wear the blue AF tie with the G/W...mixing of civilian/military?

Major C: I fully support what you say about one style/one shade.  I personally would favour something like law enforcement wears, or Propper tactical/BDU style, for quality and consistency reasons if nothing else.  But I see no reason why that would preclude a blue, civilian aviator shirt.  One would have to be quite thick to mistake that, badged properly as CAP, for the AF, which does not wear grey trousers, nameplates, or shoulder marks.  And, as I have stated before, the Air Force does not own the copyright on every last shade of blue in the book.

[Major Carrales]

Belts - now we're mixing AF uniform parts with civilian clothes. Before the uni reg defined a specific belt to be worn, folks used to wear the blue web belt with their aviator combination. The AF folks aren't allowed to wear their web belts with civilian clothes, and since our corporate uniforms are classed as such, we can't do it either.

They make web belts in other colors and the USAF does not have a monopoly on nickel plated belt buckles with a slide, I would suggest the gray belt with nickel plated buckle...


http://www.amazon.com/CANVAS-ADJUSTABLE-WEB-BELTS-BLACK/dp/B001L04KM2

[Grumpy]

Why not just a plain black leather belt with a simple silver buckle?  You can pick them up anywhere.

[Major Carrales]

Why not just a plain black leather belt with a simple silver buckle?  You can pick them up anywhere.

Because they vary too much in style to be uniform items.  Will it be a weave belt or solid?  With a pattern or with out?  A true buckle or one more reminiscent of what Puritans supposedly wore on their shoes?

The web belt would be standard as would the belt buckle this way.   

These are all opinions, of course.  $6.95 is not a bad price for a belt versus $19.99 - 24.99 for this...

http://zoom.jcpenney.com/is/image/0900631b81682c1eM.tif?wid=180&hei=180&op_usm=1.5,.8,0,0&resmode=sharp

[SarDragon]

SarDragon: I think Major Carrales' usage of the word style is important.  I can go to my local Army/Navy and get various shades of blue, green, tan and black web belts - none of which are official issue, though they are in that style.  I personally would support a black web belt with silver buckle.  I can get one of those for under $10 at the Army/Navy.  But also...we are authorised to wear the blue AF tie with the G/W...mixing of civilian/military?

In keeping with the oft made fun of policy of "You can't do it unless we say so," some uniform items of general nature are permitted for civilian wear. Included are underwear, socks, gloves, and specified outerwear, since there is no specification, other than color. Ties aren't mentioned at all in that vein. Since it's specified by our uni reg, I guess the AF said it's OK.

Here are some excerpts from the AF uni reg regarding uniform items and civvies [comments in brackets]:

Wearing the Uniform
Do not wear: in civilian attire. For example: grade insignia, cap devices, badges and other U.S. or Air Force insignia, distinctive buttons, etc.

Officers and Enlisted: Do not wear or mix unique uniform items with civilian clothes. These items are those unique to the uniform. They include grade insignia, cap devices, badges and other U. S. or Air Force insignia, such as items with the "Wing and Star" design, and so forth. Exception: Tie tacs and lapel pins when wearing business attire authorized. [Is the tie unique? I think the belt and buckle qualify. YMMV.]

Lightweight Blue Jacket.
2. May be worn with civilian clothes when insignia is removed.
3. AF Symbol is optional. May be embroidered on the left side at members cost and is not authorized to be worn with civilian clothes.

Outer Garments
Worn outdoors only, removed in an office environment, except as noted below. Use good judgment in choosing appropriate garments for wear based on weather conditions and duties. May wear with civilian clothes if grade insignia is removed.

Authorized Individuals
Leather A-2 flying jacket with flight suit, hospital whites, or service uniforms (not service dress uniform). Do not wear with civilian clothes.
*****

Black belt with silver buckle? Now we're getting into Navy territory. Just a thought.

[Mustang]

I personally would support a black web belt with silver buckle.  I can get one of those for under $10 at the Army/Navy.

Black belt with silver buckle? Now we're getting into Navy territory. Just a thought.

I've worn Navy-issue (and Vanguard-produced, fyi) black web belts with silver chrome buckle/tip with the aviator combination since its inception. It's the only way to go, IMHO.  Also far prefer a black tie with this uniform than the USAF-issue blue.

[flyboy53]

I don't disagree, it just is what it is...

How would we know unless we make such a proposal?

Also, there would be no AF uniform items used, which I think was at least part of the aggro with the CSU.

Or, if not a light blue shirt, what about a dark(er) blue one, similar to the BBDU?

Believe it or not, a dark blue shirt like that with matching pants was once an Air Force uniform. It was worn by SP, SAC Elite Guard, AF Academy cadets and generally marked those of us coming back from overseas because toward the end of it's use, BXs and military clothing sales in Alaska, Korea and Germany were the only places you could still get the shirts.

It was my all-time favorite unifrom, one that I really miss, so military and professional-looking and the last one that military creases were allowed on.

Maybe, that would be a cool idea.

[BradM]

I like the idea of the white aviator shirt with gray pants and a white hat. Like the West Point cadets. Change the white hat to have a silver band and the Civil Air Patrol cap emblem I also like the black stripe on the gray pants.

This photo below shows a black leather belt. Person on the right side of photo.

[RVT]

Anyway, General Courter has said that the shade of grey in the trousers needs to be standardised

This is the easiest solution of all.  Standardize "Dickies Charcoal".  Available nationwide and online.  Theres even multiple versions with extra pockets & reinforcements that could be used with polo shirts, while being the same color & fabric.

A uniform issue solved without changing the regulations.  How about that.    Just a policy letter from national to the effect of "medium gray means this"

I also like the black stripe on the gray pants.

Problem there is you now have a custom made item instead of off the shelf clothing, with a VAST increase in cost.

But also...we are authorised to wear the blue AF tie with the G/W...mixing of civilian/military?

You can wear the blue USAF tie and the USAF cardigan sweater over the G/W, both specifically authorized in 39-1.  I never understood that.

[SarDragon]

Believe it or not, a dark blue shirt like that with matching pants was once an Air Force uniform. It was worn by SP, SAC Elite Guard, AF Academy cadets and generally marked those of us coming back from overseas because toward the end of it's use, BXs and military clothing sales in Alaska, Korea and Germany were the only places you could still get the shirts.

It was my all-time favorite unifrom, one that I really miss, so military and professional-looking and the last one that military creases were allowed on.

Maybe, that would be a cool idea.

Oh,that was a fave of mine, also. It was an authorized CAP combination,a nd i wore it whwnever I could. I also like the Navy equivalent in "very, very dark Navy blue".

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I remember seeing that dark-blue order of dress in old photos.

However, I don't believe the USAF uses it anymore, though the USCG has something similar.

That's why I propose civilian cut and colour that are commercially available...so that it cannot be confused with what the USAF wears, unless you're quite thick.

[arajca]

Anyway, General Courter has said that the shade of grey in the trousers needs to be standardised

This is the easiest solution of all.  Standardize "Dickies Charcoal".  Available nationwide and online.  Theres even multiple versions with extra pockets & reinforcements that could be used with polo shirts, while being the same color & fabric.

A uniform issue solved without changing the regulations.  How about that.    Just a policy letter from national to the effect of "medium gray means this"

Choosing a particular manufacturer/brand for clothing causes problems for organzations and companies. Now standardizing on a particular color/style is fine. Charcoal Gray, 50/50 poly/wool blend, slant front pockets, slit rear pockets (m), no rear pockets (f), 1.75" belt loops works. Dickies Charcoal Gray trousers or similar works. Dickies Charcoal Gray trousers doesn't.

On trademaked/copyrighted items like CAP insignia, this does not apply.

[RVT]

Dickies Charcoal Gray trousers or similar works. Dickies Charcoal Gray trousers doesn't.

I fully agree.  Nobody cares who makes it, we all just want the colors to match.  If you standardize dickies charcoal and someone shows up in pants that are that color and made by someone else. nobody will notice, let alone care.  I won't.

Outside of specifying a pantone shade the best option is to chose a reference that is commonly available and well known.  You don't need to buy Dickies charcoal - just go to a store, look at it and buy whatever you want that matches that color.

I really hate to suggest this - but Vanguard could start carrying something.  that would set a standard.

[RADIOMAN015]

I personally like the idea of the blue shirt & dark blue pants.  IF it's a different color than the AF blues, I don't see this as an issue.   The problem again with the grey is that in low light conditions it is very difficult to differentiate from other military members.   Maybe a brighter color (I think red, but it could be something else) for name tags and epaulet shoulder sleeves would work.

HOWEVER, again the cost to the membership on any change is very important in my opinion, and likely a 3 year position period would be fair.

Again also this would be for ALL senior adult members.  NO senior member would be allowed to wear ANY USAF type blue uniform.
RM   

[RVT]

Again also this would be for ALL senior adult members.  NO senior member would be allowed to wear ANY USAF type blue uniform.

Go join the US Ranger Corps

[jimmydeanno]

Believe it or not, a dark blue shirt like that with matching pants was once an Air Force uniform. It was worn by SP, SAC Elite Guard, AF Academy cadets and generally marked those of us coming back from overseas because toward the end of it's use, BXs and military clothing sales in Alaska, Korea and Germany were the only places you could still get the shirts.

It was my all-time favorite unifrom, one that I really miss, so military and professional-looking and the last one that military creases were allowed on.

I'm pretty sure that they show that uniform in Iron Eagle, when Doug Masters excessively speeds through the gate...you can also see our plastic encased grade insignia and ultramarine blue nametapes in the movie.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Again also this would be for ALL senior adult members.  NO senior member would be allowed to wear ANY USAF type blue uniform.
RM

If you have such a bee in your bonnet about the AF-type uniform, take it up the chain.

My proposal was meant to provide some colour to a colourless uniform with minimum-change.

It was not meant to open a can of worms about getting rid of the AF-type uniform.

[RADIOMAN015]

Again also this would be for ALL senior adult members.  NO senior member would be allowed to wear ANY USAF type blue uniform.
RM

If you have such a bee in your bonnet about the AF-type uniform, take it up the chain.

My proposal was meant to provide some colour to a colourless uniform with minimum-change.

It was not meant to open a can of worms about getting rid of the AF-type uniform.

Your proposals seem to want to add costs for those who choose to wear the non AF type uniforms by adding hats, coats, etc, etc, etc,. 

I'm perfectly happy wearing my blue golf shirt (short sleeve & long sleeve) to most CAP activities, and rarely the aviator shirt, & and sometimes the blue BDU's.
HOWEVER, If we are to tinker with uniforms WHY NOT put ALL senior members in the same uniforms (cadets would be unaffected as long as USAF provides free uniforms), just for the sake of organizational consistency, and the appropriate public relations aspects of this?
Again I'm not very motivated to go out and buy ANY more CAP uniforms than what I already have BUT with a transition period involving ALL senior members I could get motivated. 
RM

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Your proposals seem to want to add costs for those who choose to wear the non AF type uniforms by adding hats, coats, etc, etc, etc,. 

And your proposals seem to want to add costs for those who choose to wear the AF style uniforms, and to remove the affiliation of CAP with USAF.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Your proposals seem to want to add costs for those who choose to wear the non AF type uniforms by adding hats, coats, etc, etc, etc,. 

I'm perfectly happy wearing my blue golf shirt (short sleeve & long sleeve) to most CAP activities, and rarely the aviator shirt, & and sometimes the blue BDU's.

Your position on getting CAP into golf/polo shirts and red insignia is well known.

If you can find where I said anything about doing anything with "hats, coats, etc, etc, etc," please do so.

I made one proposal on this subject: exchanging the white shirt for blue on the G/W uniforms, and standardising the grey trousers, which would comply with a mandate from General Courter.

The blue VH shirt is $19.95 average on most pilot shop websites.

I said nothing about the golf shirts, nor any kind of headgear or outergarments, other than a civilian pullover sweater.  In fact, the wear of the blue flight jacket/black A-2 as currently authorised would not change.  I personally would favour a dark-blue, black or grey flight cap with blue piping, but that's another matter entirely as one would have to be designed.

[RVT]

I made one proposal on this subject: exchanging the white shirt for blue on the G/W uniforms, and standardising the grey trousers, which would comply with a mandate from General Courter.The blue VH shirt is $19.95 average on most pilot shop websites.

The only problem here is that it is a single source item, only one company makes it.   Anything similar made by another company would most likely be a slightly different shade of blue.  If you say "Blue VanHeusen shirt and grey Dickies pants or similar"  you get people really pushing the limit of what qualifies as similar.

What would probably happen is that it would be authorized as an additional item.  You would probably still need to have the white shirt for use with the Blazer uniform.  But for those who are kept out of the USAF uniforms I can see a place for both, with the white shirt being considered more formal.

[RADIOMAN015]

Your proposals seem to want to add costs for those who choose to wear the non AF type uniforms by adding hats, coats, etc, etc, etc,. 

And your proposals seem to want to add costs for those who choose to wear the AF style uniforms, and to remove the affiliation of CAP with USAF.

As you and most others see, the "cost factor" is really a pretty high factor in making ANY uniform changes.  I agree with you that a senior member that has invested a significant amount in AF type uniforms surely wouldn't be happy with moving to a new all senior member required uniform.  Likewise, those of us that choose the white/grey's & blue BDU's, (and those lovely golf shirts short/long sleeves) for cost or other reasons likely also have no real interest in more costs for uniforms.  So this is a dilemma  

Also when you are dealing with typical consumer manufacturers/retailers IF a particular color/style of pants or shirts isn't selling it's going to be stopped from production.  Also what happens with colors is some are taken out of production for a few years and than reintroduced as a different name, with either the same dye components or a slight change.  So consistently wise one is better to go with very dark colors such as black or blue versus lighter colors.  I think the medium grey pants are problematic for the organization as far as consistency goes.
RM

[RVT]

So consistently wise one is better to go with very dark colors such as black or blue versus lighter colors.  I think the medium grey pants are problematic for the organization as far as consistency goes.
RM

So where does "bright red" fit into this?

[RADIOMAN015]

So consistently wise one is better to go with very dark colors such as black or blue versus lighter colors.  I think the medium grey pants are problematic for the organization as far as consistency goes.
RM

So where does "bright red" fit into this?

In low light/distance review grey is very difficult to differentiate on a blue type uniform (personally I don't think it meets the AF Regulation/Policy).  A bright red is more distinguishable.   As you know we even got in trouble with the AF for trying to use the AF blue pants with the white aviator shirt (what if you just changed the sliders to bright red and the name tag to red background?).

As with any uniform changes perhaps it should be an open ended questions to the AF as to what is acceptable to them before any tinkering is considered.  An educated guess is that the AF is more interested in the "status quo" of uniforms than doing the staff work to change anything at this point, BUT I could be wrong.   Why spend many hours of volunteers uncompensated efforts without first getting the AF view on the range of acceptability   BTW those blue AF pants are around $36.00 at the BX.
RM   

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The "low-light" bit in AFI 10-2701 is worded so vaguely it can mean almost anything.

The German Bundesheer (army) uniforms are...white and grey, as are the duty uniforms at West Point and many European army uniforms.



Virtually every air force in the world uses some combination of blue or grey, to say nothing of civilian airlines.

Nothing is original, and RM's "red" fixation would only serve to confuse us with organisations like the Salvation Army.



Until the AF clarifies the "low-light" clause, there will continue to be hand-wringing among CAP.

They need to tell us exactly what we can and cannot wear.

If the only thing they will accept as "distinctive" are grey and white, that needs to be spelt out.

[arajca]

They also need to clarify "at a distance" means. 10 feet? 20 feet? 50 feet? 2 miles?

[SarDragon]

You forgot Low Earth Orbit!

[RVT]

The "low-light" bit in AFI 10-2701 is worded so vaguely it can mean almost anything.

The German Bundesheer (army) uniforms are...white and grey, as are the duty uniforms at West Point and many European army uniforms.

Adopt this as the new CSU.  It can be worn over the existing grey/white and looks significantly better than the McPeak jacket.  All you need is the coat (a hat if you like) use the rest of the uniform as it presently exists.

[wuzafuzz]

So consistently wise one is better to go with very dark colors such as black or blue versus lighter colors.  I think the medium grey pants are problematic for the organization as far as consistency goes.
RM

So where does "bright red" fit into this?

In low light/distance review grey is very difficult to differentiate on a blue type uniform (personally I don't think it meets the AF Regulation/Policy).  A bright red is more distinguishable.   As you know we even got in trouble with the AF for trying to use the AF blue pants with the white aviator shirt (what if you just changed the sliders to bright red and the name tag to red background?).

As with any uniform changes perhaps it should be an open ended questions to the AF as to what is acceptable to them before any tinkering is considered.  An educated guess is that the AF is more interested in the "status quo" of uniforms than doing the staff work to change anything at this point, BUT I could be wrong.   Why spend many hours of volunteers uncompensated efforts without first getting the AF view on the range of acceptability   BTW those blue AF pants are around $36.00 at the BX.
RM   

Bright red sure does stand out against blue...
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/plaaf-uniforms.htm
Something tells me CAP won't be going there.

[Major Carrales]

Seriously...you want us to wear Bundesheer uniforms?  That is ridiculous.  From wearing the uniform of our nation's Air Force to wearing the uniform of a foreign power?  This thread has officially jumped the shark!

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Seriously...you want us to wear Bundesheer uniforms?  That is ridiculous.  From wearing the uniform of our nation's Air Force to wearing the uniform of a foreign power?  This thread has officially jumped the shark!

I'm not the one who jumped it, Major.

The German tunic was for illustrative purposes only and I am not proposing adoption of that.

Only the blue aviator shirt and standardised grey trousers.  Period.

Mike, if you want to lock this thread before it gets any worse, please feel free.  I didn't intend it to get nuts.

[Major Carrales]

Seriously...you want us to wear Bundesheer uniforms?  That is ridiculous.  From wearing the uniform of our nation's Air Force to wearing the uniform of a foreign power?  This thread has officially jumped the shark!

I'm not the one who jumped it, Major.

The German tunic was for illustrative purposes only and I am not proposing adoption of that.

Only the blue aviator shirt and standardised grey trousers.  Period.

Mike, if you want to lock this thread before it gets any worse, please feel free.  I didn't intend it to get nuts.

Understood, Capt.  Keep in mind, posting such items basically kills a thread.  If we went to a gray tunic like that...the first comparison would not be the Bundeswehr, but rather their WWII counterparts.  It would bring ridicule on CAP.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I don't ever see a tunic like that being adopted...for the reasons that it would be too "military" looking.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Personally I think the old style AF jacket be adopted with blue pants to match. It would be perfect. NO ONE in USAF is still wearing it, it is distinctive enough that no one could call low light regulations against it. The four pocket service jacket is the one I am talking about. It would be perfect, and I would even say let prior service wear their badges and awards on it as well. Keep the gray on it, and it would almost be as if nothing changed from our old uniforms. Heck, even go so far as to put all of CAP SMs in it as well. That would take care of all of the uniform problems for the service uniforms, looks good, is distinctive enough, and fulfills all needed CAP situations.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^^Except that it's no longer in production, and used ones are getting harder and harder to find.

I liked that uniform better.  Mine is still hanging in my closet.

But where are these uniforms going to come from?

[manfredvonrichthofen]

^^Except that it's no longer in production, and used ones are getting harder and harder to find.

I liked that uniform better.  Mine is still hanging in my closet.

But where are these uniforms going to come from?

Simple, the Army still uses the same cut for the blues, all that needs edited is the epaulet. Just run blue through the machines, and you are good to go.

[Major Carrales]

^^Except that it's no longer in production, and used ones are getting harder and harder to find.

I liked that uniform better.  Mine is still hanging in my closet.

But where are these uniforms going to come from?

Simple, the Army still uses the same cut for the blues, all that needs edited is the epaulet. Just run blue through the machines, and you are good to go.

Factories cannot be so easily retooled.

[RVT]

Simple, the Army still uses the same cut for the blues, all that needs edited is the epaulet. Just run blue through the machines, and you are good to go.

Isn't there a moratorium on uniform changes until nine months after the current CSU disappears in ALL of its forms?  Theres going to be no corporate equivalent to service dress blue at all for at least a year.

And after the financial loss that *someone* took on the unsold CSU coats its going to be a hard sell before anything at all gets adopted.

And THAT would be if there was any consensus on what the membership wants - and I don't see it.

[arajca]

Personally I think the old style AF jacket be adopted with blue pants to match. It would be perfect. NO ONE in USAF is still wearing it, it is distinctive enough that no one could call low light regulations against it. The four pocket service jacket is the one I am talking about. It would be perfect, and I would even say let prior service wear their badges and awards on it as well. Keep the gray on it, and it would almost be as if nothing changed from our old uniforms. Heck, even go so far as to put all of CAP SMs in it as well. That would take care of all of the uniform problems for the service uniforms, looks good, is distinctive enough, and fulfills all needed CAP situations.

If you go with a darker blue, say navy, it's available at many police and fire uniform shops now. Change the buttons to what's on the CSU and there you have it. It could also help prevent the AF from getting it's undies in a bunch since it's not using the AF blue fabric. Plus, it's less expensive than the CSU coat or AF service dress coat.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

No matter what we do, there are going to be those in the USAF getting their undies in a bunch.

[RVT]

If you go with a darker blue, say navy, it's available at many police and fire uniform shops now. Change the buttons there you have it. Plus, it's less expensive than the CSU coat or AF service dress coat.

Whatever it is, its going to have to be something "off the rack" except maybe for changing the buttons.  I seriously doubt you will see a custom made garment again.

[arajca]

If you go with a darker blue, say navy, it's available at many police and fire uniform shops now. Change the buttons there you have it. Plus, it's less expensive than the CSU coat or AF service dress coat.

Whatever it is, its going to have to be something "off the rack" except maybe for changing the buttons.  I seriously doubt you will see a custom made garment again.

Many law enforcement and fire departments use the old four-pocket style coat for their dress uniforms, typically in black or navy blue. That is why I brought it up - it is an off the shelf item. I've seen them typically running $90 - $125. The only tailoring needed would be to adjust the sleeve length and attach a sleeve braid, if still used.

No matter what we do, there are going to be those in the USAF getting their undies in a bunch.

Which is why I said "could help prevent" instead of just "prevent".

[cap235629]

If you go with a darker blue, say navy, it's available at many police and fire uniform shops now. Change the buttons there you have it. Plus, it's less expensive than the CSU coat or AF service dress coat.

Whatever it is, its going to have to be something "off the rack" except maybe for changing the buttons.  I seriously doubt you will see a custom made garment again.

Many law enforcement and fire departments use the old four-pocket style coat for their dress uniforms, typically in black or navy blue. That is why I brought it up - it is an off the shelf item. I've seen them typically running $90 - $125. The only tailoring needed would be to adjust the sleeve length and attach a sleeve braid, if still used.

No matter what we do, there are going to be those in the USAF getting their undies in a bunch.

Which is why I said "could help prevent" instead of just "prevent".

I agree this is the way to go, but your price is about $100 too low.  I just don't see it happening because the AF would throw a fit because our uniform would look BETTER than their suit coat monstrosity that McPeak forced upon them......

[RVT]

Many law enforcement and fire departments use the old four-pocket style coat for their dress uniforms, typically in black or navy blue. That is why I brought it up - it is an off the shelf item. I've seen them typically running $90 - $125. The only tailoring needed would be to adjust the sleeve length and attach a sleeve braid, if still used.

There you go, it even fits with the thread title now.  "Four Pocket navy Blue Police Style Tunic".  Off the shelf from a number of sources, everywhere form a $90 polyester version to a $275 custom tailored model from Marlowe White.

http://www.marlowwhite.com/dress-uniforms/images/police-department-dress-uniform.jpg

This is the style I was referring to earlier.  And I agree, this is a better color for it to be.

[RVT]

I agree this is the way to go, but your price is about $100 too low.  I just don't see it happening because the AF would throw a fit because our uniform would look BETTER than their suit coat monstrosity that McPeak forced upon them......

I almost said that.  In fact if we went this route I'd probably voluntarily stop wearing the AF stuff.

[cap235629]

I agree this is the way to go, but your price is about $100 too low.  I just don't see it happening because the AF would throw a fit because our uniform would look BETTER than their suit coat monstrosity that McPeak forced upon them......

I almost said that.  In fact if we went this route I'd probably voluntarily stop wearing the AF stuff.

without batting an eye.................

[BradM]

http://www.marlowwhite.com/dress-uniforms.html

With the Midnight Blue color? And changing the buttons to CAP silver buttons? And the service cap, replacing it with a silver band? How about the sleeve braid? Silver and matching stripe on the pants?

[arajca]

No silver sleeve braid. Perhaps blue or charcoal, but not silver.

NO TROUSER STRIPE!

[BradM]

No silver sleeve braid. Perhaps blue or charcoal, but not silver.

NO TROUSER STRIPE!

Then on the matching service cap on the website, a black leather band/chin strap instead of the gold?

[RVT]

With the Midnight Blue color? And changing the buttons to CAP silver buttons? And the service cap, replacing it with a silver band? How about the sleeve braid? Silver and matching stripe on the pants?

No sleeve braid at all.  Its pointless as everyone would have it and it defeats the "off the shelf" virtue.  Change the buttons is ALL the modification the coat should need.

And there are not new pants to this - its a  service coat for the existing G/W, idea being the midnight blue jacket with grey pants can't be confused for US Military even if you are blind.  It would be interchangeable with the Blazer and worn over the same stuff, using the insignia currently worn on the CSU.

BABY STEPS.  The more change you ask for the more approval you will need and the more argument will slow down the process.

KEEP IT SIMPLE - if we ask for one off the shelf commercial jacket they may actually allow it.  Make it fancier and ask for more and you dismiss any chance of success.

[Mustang]

While I'm not one to pooh-pooh a party since some of you are having fun with this, it's clear that some of you have missed the point entirely: the Air Force will never sign off on any military-esque CAP-distinctive uniform going forward, period. Doesn't matter if you got it out of a cop catalog or not; if it looks military, they're not going to approve it. 

We're lucky they let us get away with blue BDUs, since the USCG wears a similar uniform, but their position is that the average joe on the street can't tell a difference between the TPU and standard AF service dress even in broad daylight. All they see is blue, which means "Air Force" to the general public, and they don't want CAP members being confused with Air Force members. This "low light" crap in the 10-2701 is irrelevant.

Personally, I don't see where federal law gives them authority over non-Air Force-style uniforms, but they've clearly usurped it in torpedoing the TPU and we've let them, so whatever.

Bottom line, there will be no military-looking CAP-distinctive equivalent to the AF-style uniform.  The blazer is it.

[AlphaSigOU]

Mustang's right... we're screwed, blued and tattoed (literally and figuratively). Expect some to leave CAP - if they haven't already - when the CSU finally sunsets at the end of this year. (Me, I'll just 'salute and execute' after 1 January 2012. The CSU jacket will probably be converted into a Halloween costume... replace the buttons, remove the epaulets and add three more 'piston rings' to the sleeves to make it look like an 'airline captain'. Gotta put it to some good use!  )

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

While I'm not one to pooh-pooh a party since some of you are having fun with this, it's clear that some of you have missed the point entirely: the Air Force will never sign off on any military-esque CAP-distinctive uniform going forward, period. Doesn't matter if you got it out of a cop catalog or not; if it looks military, they're not going to approve it. 

First of all...the AFI does not give the AF absolute veto over any and all CAP distinctive uniforms.

Second...they do not have a copyright on all shades of the colour blue.  Nor does "blue" automatically equate to "USAF."  If so, there would be a lot of airline aircrew mistaken for the USAF.

Third...grey/white can also be taken as "military-looking."  Ref. the German Bundesheer.  Remove the grey tunic and you have a white shirt and grey trousers very, very close to the CAP grey/white.  Some Law Enforcement agencies (and I'm not talking about mall cops) also use that colour scheme.

Also ref this photo of a former East German Army uniform (it's from a militaria catalogue)...grey trousers, white(ish) shirt.



Fourth...how can they have jurisdiction over a uniform that uses no USAF items?

Finally...do they have to sign off on any uniform that doesn't have any USAF items?  Did they sign off on the polo shirt or does it not just make enough of a blip on their radar to notice?

My original post on this was simply to change the white aviator shirt for a civilian, commercially-available blue one different to the AF's.

[Mustang]

Clearly, you stopped reading my post after the first paragraph, so I'll repeat myself:

Personally, I don't see where federal law gives them authority over non-Air Force-style uniforms, but they've clearly usurped it in torpedoing the TPU and we've let them, so whatever.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Clearly, you stopped reading my post after the first paragraph, so I'll repeat myself:

Personally, I don't see where federal law gives them authority over non-Air Force-style uniforms, but they've clearly usurped it in torpedoing the TPU and we've let them, so whatever.

Clearly, you stopped reading my post after the first paragraph...

No, I read it.  If that's the case, then the AF acted improperly and out of bounds.

However, the mentality in CAP's upper echelons at least since the early '90s, when we got the maroon shoulder marks imposed for whatever reason, and I've heard several ranging from "Harwell" to the politically-neutral but extremely doubtful to me "USAF wanted us to look more distinctive" (ever the cynic), seems to have been, especially on uniform issues, to admit fault...whether it is our fault or not.  "Thank you sir, may I have another?"

As far as the CSU...someone (Ned?) correct me if I'm off-base, but the Air Force didn't 86 that...CAP did.  When it first appeared (under questionable circumstances by the current head of the U.S. Ranger Corps), the AF reviewed it, told what changes should be made (within their rights since it used parts of their uniform).  CAP made them, and the uniform became quite popular.  It was CAP who said "phase it out," and in the most illogical manner since General Courter mandated changes until phase out that make the uniform all the more "distinctive!"

Then there are the SDF/State Guards which have an Air Component...they seem to do whatever they like with the AF uniform, even less "distinctive" than us (maybe a RADIOMAN-favourite red nameplate, maybe the state abbreviation on their lapels...but not always).  No slagging on them, the ones I've been acquainted with are as good-to-go as can be.

http://www.calguard.ca.gov/casmr/Pages/Collier_bio.aspx

Some say that the AF has no control over that...how does that follow?  It is their uniform.

I want good relations with our parent service as much as any CAP member, and possibly more than some.  However, that's a two-way street, and we've done the bending-over-backwards bit moreso than the Navy Sea Cadets, Army Cadet Corps have ever had to do, from what little I know of those two organisations...and whenever something stupid like the recent "you have to salute me" kerfuffle happens, all of CAP takes the hit, at least in the AF's eyes.