Modified CSU - post-mortem?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I've been reading through Major Carrales' voluminous (and well-done) notes on National Board.

Unless I'm missing something, is there any sort of final verdict on the modified CSU - the one proposed by General Courter with standard grey CAP epaulettes and nameplate replacing the blue AF epaulettes, hard rank and blue "Civil Air Patrol" nameplate?

I hope it isn't gone, because I've worn it once and it looks good (a heck of a lot better than the grey/white).  I also think that it could be adopted as the distinctive CAP uniform many have expended keystrokes about.

[Eclipse]

I saw nothing else about it beyond the changes indicated in the ICL, and the freeze on any more changes to the uniforms for two years.

[RiverAux]

I don't think there was any changes to what we were told to do before -- modify it by date X and phase out by day Y.

[lordmonar]

I got this two weeks ago

16 February 2010 Corrected Copy

MEMORANDUM FOR ALL CAP UNIT COMMANDERS

FROM: CC

SUBJECT: Interim Change to CAPM 39-1, CAP Uniforms

1. The National Executive Committee recently approved a proposal to phase out the Corporate Service uniform, including the Corporate service coat, white aviator shirt and AF blue slacks combination, black windbreaker, black overcoat and black police-style sweaters. A 1 January 2011 phase out date was originally established for these items. After careful consideration, it has been determined that the original phase out date does not provide members with sufficient time to wear items recently purchased. For this reason the phase out date for these uniform combinations has been extended to 1 January 2012.

2. To ensure that these combinations retain the CAP distinctiveness required by the Air Force, effective 1 September 2010 the metal grade insignia and the blue AF epaulet sleeve will be replaced with the standard CAP gray epaulet sleeve. The metal CAP cutout previously authorized on the epaulets of the black windbreaker and overcoat will be removed to allow for proper placement of the gray epaulet sleeve. The blue nameplate previously authorized on the white aviator shirt will be replaced with the standard gray CAP nameplate. Members may begin wearing the gray epaulet sleeve immediately but must make the change by 1 September 2010.

3. Also, Senior Member NCOs and Cadets over the age of 18 may continue to wear these uniform combinations until the 1 January 2012 phase out date.

4. Cadets over the age of 18 are now authorized to wear the white aviator shirt and gray slacks combination with the currently authorized blue cadet nametag and grade insignia.

5. If you have questions or require additional information you may contact Ms Susie Parker, National Headquarters/DP, at sparker@capnhq.gov.

AMY S. COURTER
Major General, CAP
National Commander

NATIONAL HEADQUARTERS
CIVIL AIR PATROL
UNITED STATES AIR FORCE AUXILIARY
105 SOUTH HANSELL STREET
MAXWELL AIR FORCE BASE, ALABAMA 36112-6332

[Eclipse]

I changed mine day one, why not?

Doesn't really look that much different, and most people won't even notice.

I must say the black Navy/Army Jacket looks really sharp with the Aviator whites.  We should push for that, even sans grade insignia.

[Spike]

I changed mine day one, why not?

Doesn't really look that much different, and most people won't even notice.

I must say the black Navy/Army Jacket looks really sharp with the Aviator whites.  We should push for that, even sans grade insignia.

I totally agree.  I along with a few other of my members changed ours at the last meeting.  It does look sharp, and should be pushed for.

I would even go as far as making it the new "Corporate" uniform and ditch the gray pants. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

First off - Major Harris, thank you.  I have that ICL from General Courter.  I was just curious as to whether any follow-up was done at NB.

I would even go as far as making it the new "Corporate" uniform and ditch the gray pants.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I wore my modified CSU for the first time last week.  I got several compliments on how good it looked, and I heard similar sentiments to yours.

Maybe the black jacket/trenchcoat and a dark-blue sweater with grey rank slides?

[cap235629]

ther switch over of name tags and epaulete sleeves was updated in the corrected icl issued later that same day to effective immediately

[Eclipse]

ther switch over of name tags and epaulete sleeves was updated in the corrected icl issued later that same day to effective immediately

Yes, effective immediately, but not required until September.

http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/2010_02_16_CAP_uniforms_EA51A6906B737.pdf

[PhotogPilot]

I've still got a gray nametag, but I'll wait until the wing conference in April, no sense in paying 7 bucks shipping on $10.00 rank slides.

[JoeTomasone]

So now the only difference between the blues and the CSU is the color of the shirt?   Am I missing anything?

[Hawk200]

So now the only difference between the blues and the CSU is the color of the shirt?   Am I missing anything?

For the most part, no military stuff. But, no, you're not missing anything.

[davedove]

I changed mine day one, why not?

Doesn't really look that much different, and most people won't even notice.

I must say the black Navy/Army Jacket looks really sharp with the Aviator whites.  We should push for that, even sans grade insignia.

But if you take off the insignia, it just becomes a black jacket.  It seems to me you should already be able to wear it that way.

[RiverAux]

So now the only difference between the blues and the CSU is the color of the shirt?   Am I missing anything?

Pants, apparently.... 

[Eclipse]

I changed mine day one, why not?

Doesn't really look that much different, and most people won't even notice.

I must say the black Navy/Army Jacket looks really sharp with the Aviator whites.  We should push for that, even sans grade insignia.

But if you take off the insignia, it just becomes a black jacket.  It seems to me you should already be able to wear it that way.

Mixing military uniform parts and distinctive items is expressly prohibited in 39-1.  You could make the same argument bout the blues waist jacket as well.

[davedove]

I changed mine day one, why not?

Doesn't really look that much different, and most people won't even notice.

I must say the black Navy/Army Jacket looks really sharp with the Aviator whites.  We should push for that, even sans grade insignia.

But if you take off the insignia, it just becomes a black jacket.  It seems to me you should already be able to wear it that way.

Mixing military uniform parts and distinctive items is expressly prohibited in 39-1.  You could make the same argument bout the blues waist jacket as well.

Can you provide me that reg cite?  I can't seem to find it.

I would make the same argument about the blue windbreaker jacket.  Once you remove any insignia and such, it is no longer a "distinctive military item".  I base this on looking at some of the military regs and don't see anything like this in the CAP manual.  In military regs, once you strip off insignia, military style buttons, etc. it is no longer a military uniform.  Thus, if it is no longer a military item, it is by definition a civilian garment and can be worn with the grey/white uniform.

[Eclipse]

Once you remove any insignia and such, it is no longer a "distinctive military item".  I base this on looking at some of the military regs and don't see anything like this in the CAP manual.  In military regs, once you strip off insignia, military style buttons, etc. it is no longer a military uniform.  Thus, if it is no longer a military item, it is by definition a civilian garment and can be worn with the grey/white uniform.

Consumer clothing does not have a mil-spec label in it, and basing the wear of CAP uniforms on either regs or custom of active services doesn't work, since we aren't in the military, and there are plenty of other regs and customs that don't apply to us.  You can't pick and choose on this.

CAPP 151, section 11:
b. You may wear only authorized uniform combinations; you may not mix uniform items or wear distinctive uniform items with civilian clothes. (Distinctive uniform items are those items that are unique to the uniform. They include grade insignia, ribbons, cap devices, and buttons with Civil Air Patrol coat of arms).


There are also inferences as such all over 39-1.

[Spike]

^ Sounds to me they are talking about not wearing "CAP Distinctive Items" out in public.  That is vague at most, they should have written it as "you are not to wear any military uniform item with civilian clothes at anytime".

[jeders]

Once you remove any insignia and such, it is no longer a "distinctive military item".  I base this on looking at some of the military regs and don't see anything like this in the CAP manual.  In military regs, once you strip off insignia, military style buttons, etc. it is no longer a military uniform.  Thus, if it is no longer a military item, it is by definition a civilian garment and can be worn with the grey/white uniform.

Consumer clothing does not have a mil-spec label in it, and basing the wear of CAP uniforms on either regs or custom of active services doesn't work, since we aren't in the military, and there are plenty of other regs and customs that don't apply to us.  You can't pick and choose on this.

CAPP 151, section 11:
b. You may wear only authorized uniform combinations; you may not mix uniform items or wear distinctive uniform items with civilian clothes. (Distinctive uniform items are those items that are unique to the uniform. They include grade insignia, ribbons, cap devices, and buttons with Civil Air Patrol coat of arms).


There are also inferences as such all over 39-1.

So are you agreeing with dave or disagreeing. Because that cite says once the distinctive buttons and insignia are gone, it's not a distinctive uniform item and is, therefore, civilian clothing.

[Eclipse]

My read on this is that "distinctive" in this case is used in the "its part of the uniform" sense, not the way we normally use "distinctive" in the "USAF vs. corporate" sense.

Our corporate uniform is clearly civilian clothing in the uniform sense, and if NHQ wanted or intended for us to be able to wear parts of the
military uniforms with the corporates, they would explicitly authorize it, as they have in a few cases such as flight caps.

As CAP members, our only authorization for wear of military uniform parts, is in the context and prescription of 39-1 (+ICL's, etc), and in no other way or creative combination.  What a non-member might do is irrelevant.

[Smithsonia]

CAPP 151 Section 11: You may not wear uniform items or wear distinctive uniform items with civilian clothing.
[/size]
SO how does CAPP 151 square with use of exterior civilian coats for the White and Grays? Or, are members in their whites and grays left without a sweater, jacket, coat, overcoat solution.

Whenever they redo the basic uniform guide: Clearing up these paradoxes would be helpful.

[davedove]

Yeah, the corporate uniforms are a strange hybrid beast.  They are civilian clothing, but you can wear some of the distinctive CAP items on them.

I would have a harder time arguing for the blue AF jacket to be worn as civilian clothing, simply because the AF seems to keep a tighter control on their uniform items.  However, the Army black jacket is different.  You seem to be able to get Army items at more places (yes, even mil-spec items).  Without the distinctive items, it's just like a number of other jackets and I would have no problem letting someone wear it with the grey/white uniform, which allows civilian outerwear.

I agree that you can't always follow the military practice where CAP is concerned, by why would we need to be more military than the military in this case.

[Eclipse]

^ Think about that, though.

Some people believe that the changes to the CSU are being pushed by the Army because we are using their parts, yet its ok to wear their parts with the corporates?

Where does it end?  Service cap?  Wheel cap?  Service jacket without insignia?

[Spike]

Eclipse, you are using recent uniform changes and directions as your guide for your reasoning.  You need to pretend that the last 5 years has not happened and go solely on the fact that the CSU does not exist. 

When a military uniform item is worn without anything that makes it distinctly military (the buttons, grade insignia etc.) it is allowed to be worn.  All the Services agree on this issue. 

CAP wrote that guideline because they did not want CAP Members to wear distinctive cap items with civilian clothes.

I will say this is one area where the next regulation needs to be extra specific if CAP and AF truly do not want any military item to be worn by Fat or Fuzzies. 

This goes to show how one sentence can be interpreted in a hundred different ways because the CAP had the Air Force stop writing the regulations for them.  I push for CAP uniform regulations be added to the end of the Air Force Reg.  That would introduce CAP to most Air Force members and give all of us Auxiliary Members" a good guide to go off of. 

[Eclipse]

See my edit above, but yes, this is not the first time this has come up, and whenever these easy questions arise, they should hit the reg
or an authoritative FAQ in a clear fashion.

[davedove]

See my edit above, but yes, this is not the first time this has come up, and whenever these easy questions arise, they should hit the reg
or an authoritative FAQ in a clear fashion.

I completely, absolutely agree with this.  It's like my request for the reg cite.  Silly me, I expected to find a uniform statement in the uniform manual.

I don't plan on wearing either of the windbreaker style jackets anyway.  I've got the cool black leather jacket to wear with my greys.

[Spike]

^ I have to tell you the Army Officers Jacket does present a nice clean "distinctive" look with the modified CSU. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

This may seem like an end-run around 39-1, and I don't intend it to be.

What about wearing obsolete or foreign-issue military outergarments, without insignia/distinctive buttons?

This stuff shows up on Evilbay quite a bit, sometimes at dirt-cheap prices.

This is, I think, an obsolete AF waist-length jacket and not current issue:

http://tinyurl.com/obsoleteAFjacket

This is a RAF Group Captain's (Colonel) jacket, similar to US issue but more grey.  Take the rank slides off and you've got a nice-looking jacket:

http://tinyurl.com/RAFGPCPT

[davedove]

Yeah, but I'm a fuzzy and thus am not allowed the CSU.

But, that's another gripe.  They're trying to keep the bearded man down, I tell you!!!!

[Eclipse]

^ I have to tell you the Army Officers Jacket does present a nice clean "distinctive" look with the modified CSU.

Yep, I frequently got complimented on it, and brand new it has a very crisp look.