A Commission?

[Eclipse]

Back when I started participating again in '99, we could wear regular BDUs and green flight suits without rank insignia. That went away a couple of years later when they told us we had to wear blue stuff.

That's not exactly accurate.

What was changed was the ability to wear USAF-Style camo BDU's or the sage green flight suite without grade  if you do not meet the CAP weight standard, with the alternative being the blue field uniform or flight suit.

Up until then there was no alternative field uniform for anyone.

[SarDragon]

By "we" I meant the "fatties and fuzzies". The 1997 version of CAPM 39-1 authorized flight suits w/o grade for "us", and sometime in 1999 or 2000, the wear of BDUs w/o grade was permitted.

Some time after that, the blue stuff became authorized, and the green stuff was disallowed. The new CAPM 39-1 formalized all the prior letter style changes.

[jimmydeanno]

^ We don't need to start that again.

My point wasn't to get people to just go get one of those but that getting a "commission" isn't anything more than a piece of paper if there isn't the authority that comes with it.

CAP is a volunteer organization.  The only reason that people can tell me what to do in CAP is because I LET THEM.  I follow orders and take my duties seriously because I CHOSE TO.  But when it comes down to it someone walking around with an actual commission in CAP is rather ridiculous. 

I wish people would get off the "make me an AF officer" kick and finally realize that CAP is a hobby, not a job.

[Short Field]

[ and finally realize that CAP is a hobby, not a job.

So right.     Most states have only one paid CAP employee - and they don't get paid that much.  The rest of us do it because we enjoy it.

[SAR-EMT1]

How can you fairly call it a "Hobby" when many folks spend twenty or more hours a week on CAP business.
As for everyone talking about how CAP members are just 'civillians' let me remind you of something We are the -sometimes- USAF Auxilliary. In other organizations and other countries that means a great deal more the 'civillian'

Take for example the Coast Guard.
Their primary webpage, and all their internal documents state that the Auxilliarists are something special, and a bit more valuable then the Coast Guard 'Civillians'
USCG civillians wear no uniform and get no special schooling or base privillages. The Aux does. This goes along with a proffessional duty to assist others and educate the public.

The Canadian Forces  Commission the leaders of its Cadet programs.
In GRB they have something called the Vollunteer Reserve. They are "Real Members' of their respective military team. That is to say a recognized part of the service they support.

Civil Air Patrol is the corporate title. What we are is the Air Force Auxilliary. We are a part of the USAF, and I should think a bit more important then the USAF Civillians; if for no other reason then the fact that we do what we do out of the kindness of our hearts without a paycheck and what we do is defined by both Congress and the Air Force itself.  Lastly we wear the Air Force Uniform.
To quote a phrase from my ROTC det. Colonel, we (CAP) is part of the Air Force Team.

Now whether you want to accept what Im saying or go mucking about with an inferiority complex is up to you.

The question before us is, how do we achieve the recognition we desire and what specifically can be gained or lost from such recognition.

[JohnKachenmeister]

How about if this were printed on high-quality paper, and handed out at initial officer appointment and promotions:

The

NATIONAL COMMANDER

of the

UNITED STATES CIVIL AIR PATROL

(cool-looking corporate seal)

To all who shall see these presents, greeting:

Know ye that, reposing special trust and confidence in the patriotism, valor, fidelity, and abilities of

BENNY BALL BUTTGRABBER

I do appoint

him(her) SECOND LIEUTENANT

in the

UNITED STATES CIVIL AIR PATROL

to date as such from the thirty first day of October two thousand and seven.  This officer will therefore carefully and diligently discharge the duties of the office to which appointed by doing and performing all manner of things thereunto belonging.

And, I do strictly charge and require those officers and other personnel of lesser rank to render such obedience as is due an officer of this grade and position.  And, this officer is to observe and follow such orders and directions, from time to time, as may be given by the President of the United States of America or other superior officers acting in accordance with the laws of the United States of America.

This appointment is to continue in force during the pleasure of the National Commander of the United States Civil Air Patrol, under the provisions of those public laws relating to officers of the UNITED STATES AIR FORCE AUXILIARY and the Wing and component thereof in which this appointment is made.

Done at Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama, this thirty first day of October in the year of our Lord, two thousand and seven, and the Independence of the United States of America, the two hundred and thirty first year.

By the National Commander:


_________ Wing Commander

[jimmydeanno]

How can you fairly call it a "Hobby" when many folks spend twenty or more hours a week on CAP business.

How many people spend 20 hours a week working with wood in their garage?  How many people spend 20 hours a week talking on the HAM radios?  How many spend that time playing their favorite sport or working on their antique car or practicing their photography skills or painting/sewing/quilting?  

When you get down to the nitty gritty, it is a hobby and with any hobby there are people who take it more seriously than others?

As for everyone talking about how CAP members are just 'civillians' let me remind you of something We are the -sometimes- USAF Auxilliary. In other organizations and other countries that means a great deal more the 'civillian'

True, but no matter what the status is of the corporation, you remain a civlian volunteer of the Civil Air Patrol.

Take for example the Coast Guard.
Their primary webpage, and all their internal documents state that the Auxilliarists are something special, and a bit more valuable then the Coast Guard 'Civillians'
USCG civillians wear no uniform and get no special schooling or base privillages. The Aux does. This goes along with a proffessional duty to assist others and educate the public.

Who are the "Coast Guard Civilians?"  Contractors that the CG has running the everyday needs of the CG?  It is nice that the CG is acknowledging the volunteer efforts of their auxiliarists and they are right, the auxiliarists are more valuable to the CG than someone who has no experience in what the auxies do.  Just as CAP volunteers are more valuable a search asset than someone who has no training in search.  But I doubt that the AF is going to say that CAP volunteers are more valuable than the AF Civilian contractor who is providing intelligence information to the troops on the ground.

I don't denounce the fact that we are "part of the AF team."  

The Canadian Forces  Commission the leaders of its Cadet programs.

The last ones I spoke to when they visited during their IACE trip seemed to give the impression that they were similar to ROTC instructors and paid.

Now whether you want to accept what Im saying or go mucking about with an inferiority complex is up to you.

No inferiority complex here, but I don't consider myself to be an equal to a military O-4, nor should I expect a volunteer to be.  I'm sorry if you take offense to me calling a spade a spade, but I have no problem seeing CAP for what it actually is.

The question before us is, how do we achieve the recognition we desire and what specifically can be gained or lost from such recognition.

Wouldn't you say that the ones with the inferiority complex are those who go and try to seek out/demand ways of being recognized because they feel as though they derserve/are entitled to something?  I am perfectly happy providing my services "free of charge," what I do is recognition enough for me.  I get to see the difference I make in people's lives.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I'm more than a little uncomfortable calling it a "Hobby," too.  People and organizations depend on us. 

Flying is my hobby.

I volunteer for CAP out of a sense to duty to my country.

[davedove]

Who are the "Coast Guard Civilians?"  Contractors that the CG has running the everyday needs of the CG?  It is nice that the CG is acknowledging the volunteer efforts of their auxiliarists and they are right, the auxiliarists are more valuable to the CG than someone who has no experience in what the auxies do.  Just as CAP volunteers are more valuable a search asset than someone who has no training in search.  But I doubt that the AF is going to say that CAP volunteers are more valuable than the AF Civilian contractor who is providing intelligence information to the troops on the ground.

Just a quick clarification, both the CG and AF (as well as all the armed forces) have civilians working as government employees.  These people are an integral part of the functioning of their service.  They are not contractors.

[jimmydeanno]

^understood and agree - it was just an example. 

[Dragoon]

Here's the problem

How about if this were printed on high-quality paper, and handed out at initial officer appointment and promotions:


(snip)
And, I do strictly charge and require those officers and other personnel of lesser rank to render such obedience as is due an officer of this grade and position. 

Our grade has no position.  A 2d Lt can command Lt Col's.  As long as we allow that, how can we make the 2d Lt obey his subordinate Lt Col?

Until we fix rank inversion, I can't see how we can give rank any real authority.

[CAP_truth]

How about if this were printed on high-quality paper, and handed out at initial officer appointment and promotions:

The

NATIONAL COMMANDER

of the

UNITED STATES CIVIL AIR PATROL

(cool-looking corporate seal)

To all who shall see these presents, greeting:

Know ye that, reposing special trust and confidence in the patriotism, valor, fidelity, and abilities of

BENNY BALL BUTTGRABBER

I do appoint

him(her) SECOND LIEUTENANT

in the

UNITED STATES CIVIL AIR PATROL

to date as such from the thirty first day of October two thousand and seven.  This officer will therefore carefully and diligently discharge the duties of the office to which appointed by doing and performing all manner of things thereunto belonging.

And, I do strictly charge and require those officers and other personnel of lesser rank to render such obedience as is due an officer of this grade and position.  And, this officer is to observe and follow such orders and directions, from time to time, as may be given by the President of the United States of America or other superior officers acting in accordance with the laws of the United States of America.

This appointment is to continue in force during the pleasure of the National Commander of the United States Civil Air Patrol, under the provisions of those public laws relating to officers of the UNITED STATES AIR FORCE AUXILIARY and the Wing and component thereof in which this appointment is made.

Done at Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama, this thirty first day of October in the year of our Lord, two thousand and seven, and the Independence of the United States of America, the two hundred and thirty first year.

By the National Commander:


_________ Wing Commander

   When  I received my first promotion to warrant officer (WO1) I received and still have my Certificate of Appointment which read the same as an USAF Certificate of Appointment for officers. The only difference was it was signed by the national commander and the wing commander. 

[Short Field]

I'm more than a little uncomfortable calling it a "Hobby," too.  People and organizations depend on us. 
Flying is my hobby.
I volunteer for CAP out of a sense to duty to my country.

Merriam-Webster Definition:  Hobby - a pursuit outside one's regular occupation engaged in especially for relaxation

Sorry but hobby fits. Nothing makes me feel better than working in the squadron - be it a SAR, SAREX, training class, or just office work.  

[Short Field]

A fellow member did some nice work on these certificates.

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2168.msg43273#msg43273

[JohnKachenmeister]

Here's the problem

How about if this were printed on high-quality paper, and handed out at initial officer appointment and promotions:


(snip)
And, I do strictly charge and require those officers and other personnel of lesser rank to render such obedience as is due an officer of this grade and position. 

Our grade has no position.  A 2d Lt can command Lt Col's.  As long as we allow that, how can we make the 2d Lt obey his subordinate Lt Col?

Until we fix rank inversion, I can't see how we can give rank any real authority.

Oooohh!

I see the "Quibble" meter is reading at the maximum level!

If the regulations require that a Lt Col in some situations render obedience to a 2nd Lt, then he is required to do so. 

Next question.

[ddelaney103]

Here's the problem

How about if this were printed on high-quality paper, and handed out at initial officer appointment and promotions:


(snip)
And, I do strictly charge and require those officers and other personnel of lesser rank to render such obedience as is due an officer of this grade and position. 

Our grade has no position.  A 2d Lt can command Lt Col's.  As long as we allow that, how can we make the 2d Lt obey his subordinate Lt Col?

Until we fix rank inversion, I can't see how we can give rank any real authority.

Oooohh!

I see the "Quibble" meter is reading at the maximum level!

If the regulations require that a Lt Col in some situations render obedience to a 2nd Lt, then he is required to do so. 

Next question.

It's not a quibble - I never have to "render such obedience" to anyone based on grade, so this phrase is so much sailboat fuel.

For the purposes of day to day CAP (as opposed to SAR's or projects), I am required to obey 5 people:

- sqdn cc
- group cc
- wing cc
- region cc
- national cc

Now, you may want to thrown in a few deputies and vices (though I probably have enough vices) but that's pretty much it.  Moreover, I don't have to obey them based on grade.

It doesn't matter if they are SRA's or Major Generals: in the chain I obey them, out of the chain I can ignore them.  I don't obey Colonels, I don't even obey wing commanders - I obey _my_ wing commander.

That's CAP as it is, and unless you plan to give inherent authority and responsibility to every guy who has wandered his way to Lt Col, that's the way it's going to stay.

[Short Field]

And, I do strictly charge and require those officers and other personnel of lesser rank to render such obedience as is due an officer of this grade and position.  And, this officer is to observe and follow such orders and directions, from time to time, as may be given by the President of the United States of America or other superior officers acting in accordance with the laws of the United States of America.

I don't see any issues with this statement.  The first key phrase is "render such obedience as is due".  Well, you are talking a CAP rank, not a RM rank so I don't see that a lot of obedience is due unless there are other factors - like it is your squadron commander. 

The second key phrase is "observe and follow such orders and directions .... given ... in accordance with the laws of the United States of America".   Nothing wrong with this as the opposite would be to "NOT observe and follow such orders and directions ... given ... in accordance with the laws of the United States of American".  Just doesn't seem right to not follow the laws of the USA.

[ddelaney103]

And, I do strictly charge and require those officers and other personnel of lesser rank to render such obedience as is due an officer of this grade and position.  And, this officer is to observe and follow such orders and directions, from time to time, as may be given by the President of the United States of America or other superior officers acting in accordance with the laws of the United States of America.

I don't see any issues with this statement.  The first key phrase is "render such obedience as is due".  Well, you are talking a CAP rank, not a RM rank so I don't see that a lot of obedience is due unless there are other factors - like it is your squadron commander. 

The second key phrase is "observe and follow such orders and directions .... given ... in accordance with the laws of the United States of America".   Nothing wrong with this as the opposite would be to "NOT observe and follow such orders and directions ... given ... in accordance with the laws of the United States of American".  Just doesn't seem right to not follow the laws of the USA.

I suppose if you want a lot of pretty, empty phrases - sure, knock yourself out.

I suppose you could add, "and exercise such superhuman powers granted as a result of this commission, in accordance with the laws of physics."

Comparing this oath to the oath of enlistment, where almost every word has grave import, is like.. I don't know, comparing real military grade to our "tofu oak leaves?"

[Dragoon]

Exactimundo - why say "render such obedience as is due"  when NONE IS EVER DUE?

And that's the point.  The whole key of a commission or warrant is to establish Authority and Responsibility.

CAP grade grants neither.   Hence a CAP commission just ain't gonna work.

[JohnKachenmeister]

None is EVER due?

How about the orders of a pilot in command to a crewmember?

How about the orders of the IC to a GTL?

How about the orders of a senior staff officer to a junior staff officer?

How about the orders of a squadron commander?

"I know I've been ordered by the IC to search grid #456, but I'd rather search grid #458, so that's what I'll do.  After all, this is only CAP, and orders from persons based on their grade and position don't mean doggy-doo."

Sorry, Delaney and Dragoon.  Your plan will result in more chaos than than the National Board designing new uniforms.