A grade...finally...

[Hawk200]

Yeah, it is pretty weird on how actually USAF experience is not weighed much in CAP, even though CAP is an Auxiliary. Oh well. I got out as  SSgt. I guess I will sit as SM for 6 months...arghhh.

Wear your stripes until you get 2LT. I'm sure you've got a shirt or two left; a grey nametag and CAP cutouts is all you need. Even if you want to go with the finery, you'll only need a rack for one more ribbon.

Those grades aren't recorded at National, your CO can do that in house. I've been in a few units that used such a practice, and did it that way in the unit I commanded.

[Eclipse]

Those grades aren't recorded at National, your CO can do that in house. I've been in a few units that used such a practice, and did it that way in the unit I commanded.

NCO grades are now tracked in eServices and require the same appointment paperwork as any other grade, so a F2 and a DD214, ID card, etc.

With an open F2 in the system already, he might well wind up promoted to 1st Lt., then re-promoted to Staff Sergeant.  I would hold off until the first one
comes back (at least).

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I personally do not see a reason for a new member to have anything other than the polo and gray slacks, (and the white aviator) ever.

I hope you are not saying there is no reason for a member to ever wear the USAF type uniform.

I was in a flying club senior squadron that was like that.  Pecking order was pilots=Deity and everyone else=hewers-of-wood-drawers-of-water, and uniforms were strictly optional unless it was a polo or a flight suit (often without insignia).

That was a very sharp contrast to my first unit, where I served for over six years until having to move...from the getgo it was USAF-type uniform/BDU's only.  I never saw a grey/white until I went to my first wing activity, and this was back when the grey/white consisted of no ribbons, no rank slides and the same "blazer" nameplate.

The first night I showed up at the flying club senior squadron, I was in my blues, clean and pressed (trying to make a good impression...) and some looked at me like I was out of my mind...I remember being asked, "why do you bother with all that?"

[coudano]

I personally do not see a reason for a new member to have anything other than the polo and gray slacks, (and the white aviator) ever.

I hope you are not saying there is no reason for a member to ever wear the USAF type uniform.

I was in a flying club senior squadron that was like that.  Pecking order was pilots=Deity and everyone else=hewers-of-wood-drawers-of-water, and uniforms were strictly optional unless it was a polo or a flight suit (often without insignia).

That was a very sharp contrast to my first unit, where I served for over six years until having to move...from the getgo it was USAF-type uniform/BDU's only.  I never saw a grey/white until I went to my first wing activity, and this was back when the grey/white consisted of no ribbons, no rank slides and the same "blazer" nameplate.

The first night I showed up at the flying club senior squadron, I was in my blues, clean and pressed (trying to make a good impression...) and some looked at me like I was out of my mind...I remember being asked, "why do you bother with all that?"

That's one implementation of the corporate only uniform, and yes i've seen it too.

However, it's possible for all the adults in a unit (even a composite squadron with a /healthy/ cadet program) to go corp only for everyone without that attitude.  We do it every Tuesday night.  Come by sometime and ask my cadets if they think me or any of my CP staff members are unprofessional, too lax, or lacking in respect or authority as adults and mentors because we don't wear blues or bdu's.

OTOH we ALL (senior members) wear the SAME UNIform (with the exception of the occasional, ok regular, guy or two who doink the schedule and wear aviator on golf shirt nite or vice verse).  It looks sharp, and it feels cohesive.  No second class citizens by dress code.  Good stuff maynard.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

No implication of unprofessionalism on the part of you or your squadron was intended.  My squadron CC wears the G/W.

My question was: do you believe that CAP officers should not wear the USAF-type uniform, and if so, why?  There are certain posters here on CT who vociferously advocate such a thing, and I've ran into a few in person.  For some reason, they are very zealous for the colour grey...I just don't get it.

Personally, I would not feel comfortable in a unit that mandated corporate-only (not that I'm saying yours does) wear.

However, it is a good thing that you avoid the "second class citizens by dress code."

In my unit I'd say it's about 75% in favour of blues, but for those who cannot/choose not to, it's not even a blip on the radar screen.

[jacob]

I personally do not see a reason for a new member to have anything other than the polo and gray slacks during their first 6 months.

One reason I agree with this is the use of CAP cutouts to signify SMWOG.

• On the white shirts, the cutouts put holes in the collars that aren't covered by anything else.  Now, if SMWOGs wore the grey shoulder sleeves with just the embroidered "CAP" (which I've seen many incorrectly do), that problem would go away.
• On BDU blouses, the embroidered "CAP" on blue cloth is oriented 180 degrees off from the 2d Lt bar that will soon fill that spot.  On low-quality BDUs, that leaves part of the square outline from the stitching still visible.  Leaving grade off the BDU collars for SMWOGs would fix this problem - and maybe discourage those seniors who leave grade off the BDUs they wear on ES missions (since it doesn't matter anyway - seen that a couple of times) from doing so.

[coudano]

do you believe that CAP officers should not wear the USAF-type uniform

Yes.

and if so, why?

My previous post was pretty much about that.

There are certain posters here on CT who vociferously advocate such a thing, and I've ran into a few in person.  For some reason, they are very zealous for the colour grey...I just don't get it.

I'm not particularly zealous for the color grey, however I think that the current aviator and golf shirt combos, as they stand, look good individually and as a group, and work fine.  I don't think you can change them much and have those changes be improvements.  And I haven't seen a complete alternative suggestion yet that is "better".

I think they should chill on the pants, just mandate any grey full length pants (cargo, ems, tactical being fine, not just 'slacks' or 'old man pants') that match the shade of the nameplate/epaulets, and go on with life.

I /would/ like to see a more reasonable coat to put over the aviator with a uniform tie, on which we can wear rank and cap-only ribbons awards and decs.

Personally, I would not feel comfortable in a unit that mandated corporate-only (not that I'm saying yours does) wear.

It is not 'officially' mandated, like a written OI or something.
But it is /certainly/ the culture.  If you showed up to my squadron wearing blues or bdu's as a senior member you would stick out like a sore thumb.

However, it is a good thing that you avoid the "second class citizens by dress code."

Yes, yes it is.

In my unit I'd say it's about 75% in favour of blues, but for those who cannot/choose not to, it's not even a blip on the radar screen.

It might be a blip that you just aren't aware of.
Many people who can't, or can't practically wear the USAF style uniform silently harbor resentment about it.
I /can/ wear the USAF style uniform (both weight and grooming), and choose not to anyway.
So can and do about 30% of the officers in my unit.
The other 70% can't, and don't need to feel bad for it, nor the temptation to do it wrong.

I would go so far as to say that MOST CAP senior members can NOT (or are effectively not willing to -shave-) wear the USAF style uniform properly on account of either weight or grooming (although many people who bust weight and grooming basically willfully violate the regs and wear them anyway).  Historically our command structure has proven itself repeatedly as unwilling and unable to enforce the rules, so people basically get away with murder.

We have historically and repeatedly shown that we collectively can't wear the USAF uniform right.
So I say we quit wasting so much strife on it, and focus on our missions, which can be accomplished regardless of clothing and jewlrey.  The best way to do that is to eliminate clothing and jewlrey as an item for discussion as much as possible.  And the best way to do that is to reduce and eliminate the swath of choices and possible points of failure in the system.

The corporates are the uniform that the (super) majority of CAP senior members SHOULD be in.
The corporates are the uniform that 100% of CAP senior members CAN be in.
That's a pretty clear momentum vector right there, as far as i'm concerned.

[Eclipse]

I personally do not see a reason for a new member to have anything other than the polo and gray slacks during their first 6 months.

One reason I agree with this is the use of CAP cutouts to signify SMWOG.

• On the white shirts, the cutouts put holes in the collars that aren't covered by anything else.  Now, if SMWOGs wore the grey shoulder sleeves with just the embroidered "CAP" (which I've seen many incorrectly do), that problem would go away.

I used to say the same thing, except that the blue shirts are self-healing.

CAP cutouts are not worn on the collar of the white aviator shirt.

[jacob]

CAP cutouts are not worn on the collar of the white aviator shirt.

Interesting - I just checked 39-1, since the white shirt is worn pretty much like the blue one except for military ribbons.  That seems to be another exception!  I wonder if that was intentional, or an oversight.

[Eclipse]

My guess is intentional as there is no reason to worry about anyone confusing the whites with a USAF uniform, which is probably the
only reason seniors have to wear the cutouts until they make grade.

[mjbernier]

Yes, SM (Senior Member) utilizing the CAP cutouts 

No, I do not have a rating yet, as I have not hit the 6 months. I am aware that is required for the Tecnician rating, I just got everything knocked out while I had the free time needed.

Thanks for all of the info guys.

If I hear word in the next 4 months, I'll let ya know...

Rick

Rick, you sound like me - I had Level 1 done in my first month, and just hit my 6 months last week. I also have almost all of Level 2 finished - SLS & OBC are done, and another month or so on staff to get my ITO Technician rating. I picked up my Yeager along the way as well. Have you done any work yet on Emergency Services?

On the uniform question, my CC recommended I start with the white aviator shirt/gray slacks uniform for more formal wear (like our monthly promotions night) and the golf shirt for all of our other meetings/activities. It made sense to me because other than the shirt the uniforms are identical, keeping my initial costs down (which was very welcome at the time... our first-year dues aren't exactly cheap). I'll probably add BDUs to the collection as the weather gets a little cooler, and eventually blues as well (I have a few pounds to work off first ).

Mike

[Woodsy]

I personally do not see a reason for a new member to have anything other than the polo and gray slacks, (and the white aviator) ever.

I hope you are not saying there is no reason for a member to ever wear the USAF type uniform.

I personally see a lot of value in the AF uniform.

In my original post where I said I don't see a need for it in the first 6 months, it's based on need.  I watched myself and several other members join around the same time, and none of us had a reason to wear anything other than the polo/gray's our first 6 months.  We bought them, but never wore them. So, based on personal experience, if a new member is worried about the start up costs, I would have no problem telling them to get the polo and buy the other stuff later.  Now, if a need for it arises, such as a training class with a required uniform, or state conference (which I don't know of any brand new members that go to these events) then cross that bridge when you get there.  Classes like that aren't spur of the moment, and there's plenty of time to order and get all the uniform items before hand. 

[Sapper168]

Now see since i initially joined CAP to specifically do ground team work, my first uniform was the BDU.  That was followed several months later with the White/grey and polo shirt.  Since i started working with the cadets in my unit, i still wear BDU's a majority of the time as i try to stay in line with the cadets to foster uniformity
.

[Hawk200]

I personally do not see a reason for a new member to have anything other than the polo and gray slacks during their first 6 months.

One reason I agree with this is the use of CAP cutouts to signify SMWOG.

• On the white shirts, the cutouts put holes in the collars that aren't covered by anything else.  Now, if SMWOGs wore the grey shoulder sleeves with just the embroidered "CAP" (which I've seen many incorrectly do), that problem would go away.
• On BDU blouses, the embroidered "CAP" on blue cloth is oriented 180 degrees off from the 2d Lt bar that will soon fill that spot.  On low-quality BDUs, that leaves part of the square outline from the stitching still visible.  Leaving grade off the BDU collars for SMWOGs would fix this problem - and maybe discourage those seniors who leave grade off the BDUs they wear on ES missions (since it doesn't matter anyway - seen that a couple of times) from doing so.

Personally, I think the cutouts for SMWOG's is pointless now. Back when we had blue nametags it would work, but if you run into someone with a grey nametag on a blue uniform, you'd be hardpressed to convince me that you confused them for an Air Force member. I'd simply consider the person that did as uninformed at best, and an idiot at worst (a lot would depend on how they comport themselves). Grey nametag on a blue uniform with a hat device that's way too big for anything the Air Foce wears equals "not an Air Force person." And yes, I actually like the hat device we wear. 

Lose them on the BDUs (both BDUs) too. There's no need for it. On woodland, blue tapes equals "not an Air Force person" too. On a Blue BDU, it's really pointless. For cadets, I can understand if someone's married to the idea. For seniors, it's done simply for the sake of doing so.

[coudano]

Personally, I think the cutouts for SMWOG's is pointless now. Back when we had blue nametags it would work, but if you run into someone with a grey nametag on a blue uniform, you'd be hardpressed to convince me that you confused them for an Air Force member. I'd simply consider the person that did as uninformed at best, and an idiot at worst (a lot would depend on how they comport themselves). Grey nametag on a blue uniform with a hat device that's way too big for anything the Air Foce wears equals "not an Air Force person." And yes, I actually like the hat device we wear. 

Could, I suppose, be confused with USAF Airman Basic,
who carried his enlisted grade over to Senior Membership.

Unlikely, but not impossible.

[Hawk200]

Personally, I think the cutouts for SMWOG's is pointless now. Back when we had blue nametags it would work, but if you run into someone with a grey nametag on a blue uniform, you'd be hardpressed to convince me that you confused them for an Air Force member. I'd simply consider the person that did as uninformed at best, and an idiot at worst (a lot would depend on how they comport themselves). Grey nametag on a blue uniform with a hat device that's way too big for anything the Air Foce wears equals "not an Air Force person." And yes, I actually like the hat device we wear. 

Could, I suppose, be confused with USAF Airman Basic,
who carried his enlisted grade over to Senior Membership.

Unlikely, but not impossible.

And how exactly would you manage such a thing? I'm a little curious as to your reasoning.

[coudano]

And how exactly would you manage such a thing? I'm a little curious as to your reasoning.

Well CAPR 35-5 Section F outlines how military "NCO" who wish to not be considered for officer grade can carry over their military grade into CAP senior membership.  Never seen a CAP "Master Sergeant"?  They are out there.  Even a couple of Chiefs running around.

Of course an Airman Basic is not an "NCO", but I think that the reg *MEANS* there is 'enlisted members'
Would CAP actually turn away an E1, E2, E3, or E4(who wasn't a noncom) under this paragraph?
Has it even been tried?

Like I said, (very) unlikely, but not impossible.

[Hawk200]

Well CAPR 35-5 Section F outlines how military "NCO" who wish to not be considered for officer grade can carry over their military grade into CAP senior membership.  Never seen a CAP "Master Sergeant"?  They are out there.  Even a couple of Chiefs running around.

I've seen every rank of NCO in CAP, from SSgt to CMSgt. Nothing unusual there.

Of course an Airman Basic is not an "NCO",

Correct.

but I think that the reg *MEANS* there is 'enlisted members'
Would CAP actually turn away an E1, E2, E3, or E4(who wasn't a noncom) under this paragraph?

Turn away? No. Give them "equivalent" rank in CAP? Definitely not. The reg says "military NCOs." It does not say "military enlisted." What you think it means is not what it says. There is nothing in the pub that even implies "all enlisted members." And we don't go by what we think it means when it says otherwise in black and white.

Has it even been tried?

Actually, yes it has. Didn't agree with the idea, but I tried anyway for someone. National said "no," and included a cite from the pub.

Like I said, (very) unlikely, but not impossible.

If it can't be done, it is impossible.

However, my original statement was that CAP cutouts were not needed for SMWOG because they serve no real purpose, and that any confusion with Air Force personnnel is a result of ignorance. Granted, that is my opinion, but I will maintain it until someone shows me evidence that is sufficient for me to reconsider my opinion. (And no, I don't know what evidence would change my opinion; show me what you got, and I'll go from there.)

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Coudano: Non-concur on most points.

I don't know how long you've been in CAP, but I've been in since 1993 and have been in composite, senior and cadet units.

With the exception of the flying club, for most the blue/BDU was the predominant uniform.  In my first squadron, and another composite unit, nobody wore the G/W or polo shirt.

You sound almost insulting when you state that "historically and collectively" we can't wear the AF uniform "right."

I assure you: I can and do.  In the squadrons I've served, those who do not get called on it to correct it.

You may not realise it, but saying that I (or anyone) visiting your squadron would "stick out like a sore thumb" does not bode well for welcoming a transferring member...maybe a new member, but speaking for myself, I probably wouldn't give such a squadron a second visit.

We have worn the modified USAAF/USAF uniform virtually since our inception.  As long as we maintain our Auxiliary status (one of the STUPIDEST things ever done to CAP was the Aux On/Off nonsense), we should continue to wear the AF uniform, within regulations.  If our relationship with the AF is ever terminated, I will be gone, as will many others.

Most of the uniform-related shenanigans I have known of at National have to do with hand-wringing over any shade of blue ticking off the AF (witness the CSU).

I do not believe that my own personal views, or yours, should deprive other CAP members of the privilege of wearing the USAF-type uniform.  Personally, I do not like the grey/white/polos at all and have never owned them...but who am I to say that others should not have that option?

I do agree that the bloody awful (my opinion) blazer should be replaced, preferably with something airline-type, and that the trousers should be changed from grey to a non-AF blue shade (the AF does not hold copyright on all shades of blue).

I would also be good with doing away with the CAP cutouts on shirts and just wearing the blank grey epaulettes for a new member.

[Eclipse]

The reg is specific, and does not mean "enlisted". I don't know how you could interpret it that way when the entry grade is spelled out specifically.

I agree with Hawk, the cutouts serve no purpose.  I think it would be fine and sharp if we all wore them, but having them only for new members seems pointless.